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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:24:25 EST
In a message dated 98-03-12 19:20:32 EST, fro@***.AB.CA writes:

> With a lot of companies not attending GenCon, this is a good chance for
> FASA to really shine and look good if they release SR3 at GC and do a good
> job of it.. :)
>
Who isn't going to be there this year? I hadn't heard much, but would like an
update.

-K
Message no. 2
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:25:51 -0600
The following have announced they are not showing to GenCon:

Steve Jackson Games (competitor #1 - GURPS: Cyberpunk)
R. Talsorian Games (competitor #2 - Cyberpunk:2020)
Palladium Games (competitor #3 - Rifts)
Dream Pod 9
RPGNet

So, for those counting, two of the major competitors in a similar class
to Shadowrun, and the third who is in the category of 'near future, post
apocalyptic' will all not be showing. Dream Pod 9 is a competitor to the
Battletech line of FASA. So, with all these 'rivals' not showing, it is
a prime event for FASA to shine and gain extra sales.

--Lightfinger
Message no. 3
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:46:18 -0700
At 23:25 12/03/98 -0600, you wrote:
>The following have announced they are not showing to GenCon:
>
>Steve Jackson Games (competitor #1 - GURPS: Cyberpunk)
>R. Talsorian Games (competitor #2 - Cyberpunk:2020)

Not to mention that RtG just scaled back to a part time operation -- they
do say this will give them More time to work on Cyberpunk:20xx 3, or
whatever it's going to end up being called.

-Adam J
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ fro@***.ab.ca
"Now I'm going to come on stage, and nobody is going to fight, because I wear
rented suits and can't be hurt." -- Jerry Springer.
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:59:30 EST
In a message dated 98-03-13 00:28:20 EST, lightfinger@****.COM writes:

> So, for those counting, two of the major competitors in a similar class
> to Shadowrun, and the third who is in the category of 'near future, post
> apocalyptic' will all not be showing. Dream Pod 9 is a competitor to the
> Battletech line of FASA. So, with all these 'rivals' not showing, it is
> a prime event for FASA to shine and gain extra sales.
>
Okay, but this does NOT sound good actually. It means a couple of potential
things in my eyes.

a) Gencon does -NOT- have the drawing power it once held in the gaming
community.

b) All this game competition has run into direct conflict on the economic
level and people/companies do not want to put the resources into
representation.

c) Gamer "Populations" are down, enough to warrant 'b' above...

-K
Message no. 5
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:38:57 -0500
At 07:59 AM 3/13/98 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-03-13 00:28:20 EST, lightfinger@****.COM writes:
>
>> So, for those counting, two of the major competitors in a similar class
>> to Shadowrun, and the third who is in the category of 'near future, post
>> apocalyptic' will all not be showing. Dream Pod 9 is a competitor to the
>> Battletech line of FASA. So, with all these 'rivals' not showing, it is
>> a prime event for FASA to shine and gain extra sales.
>>
>Okay, but this does NOT sound good actually. It means a couple of potential
>things in my eyes.

I recall, I believe it was on RTal's site, an explanation of why they
weren't going to attend. It involved GenCon restructuring how they charge
for booth space, and placement, making it too expensive for a lot of usual
companies to attend this year. So, GenCon bit itself in the ass, a lot of
the smaller, but important game companies, won't be represented I've heard,
because of it. And frankly, the point of GC is that you get to see
practically -everything- in the gaming community there. FASA's a big
enough company to afford to go, but others you might expect to be seeing
are not. :(

losthalo
Message no. 6
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:18:02 -0500
>The following have announced they are not showing to GenCon:
>
>Steve Jackson Games (competitor #1 - GURPS: Cyberpunk)
>R. Talsorian Games (competitor #2 - Cyberpunk:2020)
>Palladium Games (competitor #3 - Rifts)
>Dream Pod 9
>RPGNet
<snip>
> So, with all these 'rivals' not showing, it is a prime event for FASA to
> shine and gain extra sales.

By the way, the above companies aren't going as a very legitimate
protest against the way WOTC is milking dealers at GenCon. They've
more than doubled the dealer fees, IIRC. We should wish the "dropouts"
well, they may be rivals but they are not our enemies.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 7
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:36:28 -0800
At 10:18 AM -0500 3/13/98, Mike Elkins wrote:
>>The following have announced they are not showing to GenCon:
>>
>>Steve Jackson Games (competitor #1 - GURPS: Cyberpunk)
>>R. Talsorian Games (competitor #2 - Cyberpunk:2020)
>>Palladium Games (competitor #3 - Rifts)
>>Dream Pod 9
>>RPGNet
><snip>
>> So, with all these 'rivals' not showing, it is a prime event for FASA to
>> shine and gain extra sales.
>
>By the way, the above companies aren't going as a very legitimate
>protest against the way WOTC is milking dealers at GenCon. They've
>more than doubled the dealer fees, IIRC. We should wish the "dropouts"
>well, they may be rivals but they are not our enemies.
>

Yes, WOTC has bumped up fees for tables in the dealer rooms to more than
twice what it was before. Most of the game company people out here
(California) simply cannot justify the expense in going to Gen Con this
year. I belive you can add Chaosium to that list.

Interestingly, GenCon is not charging full price to small (read: no
competition) game companies, only to the 'second tier' companies if you
will. It seems WOTC shares the same fair business practices as a certain
other Washington based company.

The thing that pisses me off is the way WOTC keeps swearing up and down
that the way they are doing business will not hurt the gaming industry as a
whole. After watching several small startups pack it in because of WOTC's
card-game patent and move to sole distribution, I can't help but fear for
the future of gaming.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design
Oakland, California
http://www.lowephoto.com.

"The logic of worldly sucess rests on a fallacy: the strange error that our
perfection depends upon the thought and opinions and applause of other men."

-Thomas Merton
Message no. 8
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:49:50 -0600
> I recall, I believe it was on RTal's site, an explanation of why they
> weren't going to attend. It involved GenCon restructuring how they charge
> for booth space, and placement, making it too expensive for a lot of usual
> companies to attend this year.
I know Palladium put up several similar reason's on their website. One of
their complaints was that some companies were given preference in getting
booths, their names already being inscribed on the form Palladium got. Kinda
pissed Palladium off because they've been at GenCon since 1982. They also so
said that while they could afford to go, they were pissed off enough that they
wouldn't.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
ICQ 8108186 , AIM handle Nexx3
************
A beautiful woman is the hell of the soul, the purgatory of the purse, and the
paradise of the eye.........
***********
Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been
poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find
that money cannot be eaten.
- Cree Indian Prophecy
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 9
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:05:21 -0600
The following is the URL for Palladium's take on why they aren't attending
GenCon

http://www.palladiumbooks.com/Gen.htm

In case ya'll are wondering, two of the six mailing lists I'm on are
Palladium-related, so I tend to get a lot of info about what the company is
doing.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
ICQ 8108186 , AIM handle Nexx3
************
A beautiful woman is the hell of the soul, the purgatory of the purse, and the
paradise of the eye.........
***********
Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been
poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find
that money cannot be eaten.
- Cree Indian Prophecy
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 10
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:58:51 -0600
> Who isn't going to be there this year? I hadn't heard much, but would like an
> update.
I wont be there :^[.I cant get the money,and I doubt my parents will let
me go.
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:09:46 EST
In a message dated 98-03-13 18:00:03 EST, elfman@*****.NET writes:

> > Who isn't going to be there this year? I hadn't heard much, but would
like
> an
> > update.
> I wont be there :^[.I cant get the money,and I doubt my parents will let
> me go.
>
Gosh Wyrmy, and you live in between Mike and I and Milwaukee....too bad ;)

-K
Message no. 12
From: bktoys <bktoys@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 01:02:31 -0500
I hate to be a pain, but Exactly when and where is GENCon being held???

Oh, and the reason Palladium is not showing up is because of WotC. At least
that is the last I had heard of It.


Bad Karma




-----Original Message-----
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Friday, March 13, 1998 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)


>The following have announced they are not showing to GenCon:
>
>Steve Jackson Games (competitor #1 - GURPS: Cyberpunk)
>R. Talsorian Games (competitor #2 - Cyberpunk:2020)
>Palladium Games (competitor #3 - Rifts)
>Dream Pod 9
>RPGNet
>
>So, for those counting, two of the major competitors in a similar class
>to Shadowrun, and the third who is in the category of 'near future, post
>apocalyptic' will all not be showing. Dream Pod 9 is a competitor to the
>Battletech line of FASA. So, with all these 'rivals' not showing, it is
>a prime event for FASA to shine and gain extra sales.
>
>--Lightfinger
Message no. 13
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 00:18:49 -0600
> I hate to be a pain, but Exactly when and where is GENCon being held???
Milwaukee, same as always.

> Oh, and the reason Palladium is not showing up is because of WotC. At least
> that is the last I had heard of It.
Not because they dislike WotC (as apparently is the case with SJG), but
because they don't like what Andon is doing to the con, and sorta doubt the new
site will be ready by August (if Milwaukee got the weather we got, it won't be)

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
ICQ 8108186 , AIM handle Nexx3
************
A beautiful woman is the hell of the soul, the purgatory of the purse, and the
paradise of the eye.........
***********
Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been
poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find
that money cannot be eaten.
- Cree Indian Prophecy
***********
Am Moireach Mor!
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:57:08 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 10:18/13 Mar 98...

> By the way, the above companies aren't going as a very legitimate
> protest against the way WOTC is milking dealers at GenCon. They've
> more than doubled the dealer fees, IIRC.

Here's something from the Millennium's End list that should shed some
light on this:


Subject: Re: [ME]: Gencon
Date sent: Mon, 9 Feb 98 14:20:26 -0500
From: Charles Ryan <charles@******************.com>
To: "ME-l" <millenniums-end-l@*******.com>
Send reply to: millenniums-end-l@*******.com

>Just thought this would be of interest to some of the Gencon attenders on
>this list.
>
>A lot of game companies will not be going to GenCon this year, including
>Steve Jackson Games, Dream Pod 9, and RPGNet...

I hate to jump in on such an off-topic discussion as WotC-bashing, but I
hate even more to see this mailing list used to perpetuate nasty rumors.

Some of you may recall that about two years ago, TSR went out of
business. There's a reason for that: the company was dramatically
mismanaged. Among their many blunders was GenCon, which was never
well-accounted for and which ran at a significant loss for the company.
Andon, which now runs GenCon, was faced with a difficult situation when
they took the show over: run it at a profit, or go out of business. Andon
may be a subsidiary of WotC, but it is an independent subsidiary, with its
own offices (in Ohio, not Seattle), own personnel, and own cash flow.

Couple that with the fact that Milwaukee has built a new convention
center this year and is charging higher prices, and Andon was forced to
raise the rates for exhibitors substantially. As a result, some companies
(like us) will have smaller exhibit spaces, and a few have said that they
will not attend. Some companies (like us) see this as a simple business
reality--a change in the way we do business based on a change in the
marketplace. Others have framed their decision as a "boycott", opted not to
run any events or even support the efforts of gamers who run events there
for them, and spread the news that Andon and WotC are somehow "evil" for
trying to stay in business.

As for concerns that WotC and its subsidiaries grabbed all the good space
in the exhibit hall first, that has always been the case even with TSR.
They own the convention--why shouldn't they get first shot at the exhibit
hall? Even so, the exhibit hall layout this year is prabably the fairest
one for small companies I have ever seen; there really isn't a bad seat in
the house.

If anyone on this list has any further doubts about Andon and GenCon, let
me add this. Gary Smith, the president of Andon, sits on the Board of
Directors of Chameleon Eclectic; I have known and done business with him
for years and trust him implicitly as a man of great integrity and concern
for our industry and hobby.

FYI, the companies that have announced that they will not be attending
include: Steve Jackson Games; Palladium (who don't always attend anyway);
R. Talsorian; and Dream Pod 9. Since the period in which most game
companies sign up for their space is nearing an end, I'm guessing that
there won't be many more such announcements.

We'll be running even more great events at GenCon than we have in years
past--I hope we'll see you all there.




--

Charles Ryan
Chameleon Eclectic

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Why live in the world when you can live in your head?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:57:08 +0100
Ereskanti said on 7:59/13 Mar 98...

> Okay, but this does NOT sound good actually. It means a couple of potential
> things in my eyes.
>
> a) Gencon does -NOT- have the drawing power it once held in the gaming
> community.
>
> b) All this game competition has run into direct conflict on the economic
> level and people/companies do not want to put the resources into
> representation.
>
> c) Gamer "Populations" are down, enough to warrant 'b' above...

On another list I'm on, recently someone kept rambling on about the reason
why some companies (SJG, Palladium, etc.) won't go to GenCon this year.
Apparently, it has to do with higher prices and a few changes in policy
with which the companies don't agree, but from another post their reasons
appear a bit strange to me. Especially since it seems Palladium admitted
they'd never lost money on going to GenCon, and it doesn't seem as if they
would this year either.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Why live in the world when you can live in your head?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 16
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?)
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 12:57:48 -0600
Gurth wrote:
>
> Ereskanti said on 7:59/13 Mar 98...
>
> > Okay, but this does NOT sound good actually. It means a couple of potential
> > things in my eyes.
> >
> > a) Gencon does -NOT- have the drawing power it once held in the gaming
> > community.
> >

In recent years, this has fluxuated depending on CCG national
tournaments being held at the convention, as well as success of things
like the Deep Space and other LARPS rather than the regular RPG games,
which have remained fairly constant.

> > b) All this game competition has run into direct conflict on the economic
> > level and people/companies do not want to put the resources into
> > representation.

Unfortunately, Steve Jackson and the other 'boycotters' had to make a
decision: Origin or GenCon. I really wish they wouldn't have said it was
a boycott, because like was said earlier by someone - if they are really
boycotting, then they wouldn't go to Origins either, since it is the
same company.

I honestly think more of their decision is the loss of their guaranteed
'prime location' areas, rather than the cost of the convention, etc.

> On another list I'm on, recently someone kept rambling on about the reason
> why some companies (SJG, Palladium, etc.) won't go to GenCon this year.
> Apparently, it has to do with higher prices and a few changes in policy
> with which the companies don't agree, but from another post their reasons
> appear a bit strange to me. Especially since it seems Palladium admitted
> they'd never lost money on going to GenCon, and it doesn't seem as if they
> would this year either.

Again, this could also be budgetary restrictions within the company
causing this decision. Not the 'they are going broke' rumor, either.
Many companies have set aside part of their budget for conventions,
travel, etc. Only logical to do so. Now, they suddenly discover AFTER
allocating budget figures that the costs of GenCon have risen too far to
go to both conventions (Origins & GenCon). Companies then have to make a
decision on which to go to. First to make this decision was SJG, and
Steve decided to get some publicity on this decision and attack the
WotC/TSR merger in the process.

Some of the other companies do NOT call their decision a boycott.
R.Talsorian explained their position about 'we had to make a decision,
and we decided not to do GenCon this year and will be at Origins'.
(R.Talsorian is also the start of the rumors mentioned above because
they HAVE admitted they are scaling back as a whole, due to money
considerations - the near-dismal showing of Fuzion hurt them, it seems.)

In the end, my opinion is that Steve Jackson and Palladium will get a
backlash of opinion, especially if GenCon turns into a success. And if
GenCon does become a success, all of the others will be back next year,
with Steve claiming things like "They cleared/addressed our concerns."

--Lightfinger

ps. Chaosium will still be at GenCon, I believe. They have a rep on
another mailing list I am on, and she has said nothing about not showing
up officially this year.

pps. If you think Cyberpunk 2020 will not be sold at GenCon, you are
probably wrong. Hero Games, partners with RTal in the Fuzion system, has
not announced whether they won't be there at GenCon...so RTal stuff will
be sold at their booth if they are there.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about GCon Dropouts (Re: Shadowrun 3?), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!