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Message no. 1
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 01:29:25 -0800
Everyone loves a gearhead!

Ok, I heard about the handheld laser pistol from CC. Now, I don't have CC in
my grubby gearhead claws yet but I did hear it does 12M.

It does more damage then an assault rifle...ok. And powered by batteries
(damn, SR battery tech has some badass discharge rates!!). We'll ignore that
here though.

Using Vehicles 2nd Edition I converted backwards to get an idea of the
energy output this thing would have. Now, in this we are limited by the fact
that SR weapon damages make no sense in a realism or even cohesiveness
sense. We all know this (or should).

The equation for GURPS beam weapon damage is:
(square root of output in kJ*)x .5 x 1.8571
* If less then 1000kJ then multiply by .03 instead
Note that the assumption is laser (.5) and refined tech. For the lasers from
2050-era I'd use 1.5714 instead (Tech Level of introduction +1)

350

I used some round-about figures and then used my handy-dandy GURPS to SR
damage conversion until I got a value near what I was looking for.

My super-simplified GURPS to SR damage conversion is:
Power = (GURPS dice of damage x 3) /2, rounded up. Staging is determined by
taking the original number of dice of damage /2. Take the result and consult
below:
1-2=L : 3-4=M : 5-6=S : 7+=D
For example, an M-16A2 (5.56mm) does 5d damage in GURPS. This translates to
8M.

Not rocket science obviously.

It should be obvious that to be 12M it should do 8d in GURPs. That means the
laser pistol from Cannon Companion is 300 mJ. The MP Laser from SSC should
be about 425mJ (slightly older tech). With the refined version from FoF
being about 350mJ, they can get by with less power due to better focusing,
lenses, etc.

In comparison the detonation of 1 kilogram of TNT gives off 5 MJ.



Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 2
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:55:48 -0500
At 04:29 AM 3/31/00, Tzeentch wrote:
>Everyone loves a gearhead!
>
>Ok, I heard about the handheld laser pistol from CC. Now, I don't have CC in
>my grubby gearhead claws yet but I did hear it does 12M.
>
>It does more damage then an assault rifle...ok. And powered by batteries
>(damn, SR battery tech has some badass discharge rates!!). We'll ignore that
>here though.

Think about what you just said. They may label them in the books as
batteries, but from the description they're just high energy/high discharge
capacitors. Make them out of ultra thin sandwiched materials wrapped up
into columns, one for each shot, and put them in a convenient carrying box.

>Using Vehicles 2nd Edition I converted backwards to get an idea of the
>energy output this thing would have. Now, in this we are limited by the fact
>that SR weapon damages make no sense in a realism or even cohesiveness
>sense. We all know this (or should).

True enough. There's a lot of "fudge factor" going on there.

>The equation for GURPS beam weapon damage is:
>(square root of output in kJ*)x .5 x 1.8571
>* If less then 1000kJ then multiply by .03 instead
>Note that the assumption is laser (.5) and refined tech. For the lasers from
>2050-era I'd use 1.5714 instead (Tech Level of introduction +1)

Do they also figure in the changes in ranges over the different systems, as
the beam loses cohesiveness and spreads out over longer distances? While
technically a laser has unlimited range, in an atmosphere in does get
scattered by just about everything and quickly loses its effectiveness.
Hence pulse lasers that burn in succession through the atmosphere being
used for anti-missile systems.

>350
>
>I used some round-about figures and then used my handy-dandy GURPS to SR
>damage conversion until I got a value near what I was looking for.
>
>My super-simplified GURPS to SR damage conversion is:
>Power = (GURPS dice of damage x 3) /2, rounded up. Staging is determined by
>taking the original number of dice of damage /2. Take the result and consult
>below:
> 1-2=L : 3-4=M : 5-6=S : 7+=D
>For example, an M-16A2 (5.56mm) does 5d damage in GURPS. This translates to
>8M.
>
>Not rocket science obviously.
>
>It should be obvious that to be 12M it should do 8d in GURPs. That means the
>laser pistol from Cannon Companion is 300 mJ. The MP Laser from SSC should
>be about 425mJ (slightly older tech). With the refined version from FoF
>being about 350mJ, they can get by with less power due to better focusing,
>lenses, etc.
>
>In comparison the detonation of 1 kilogram of TNT gives off 5 MJ.

Okay, I'm sure that those numbers are at least pretty close, as you usually
think this things out pretty well. I'll completely agree with you that I
can't think of how a battery could do that much. If you go for the
high-discharge capacitor, its still pretty damn high, but at least within
the realm of 60 years of science.


>Ken
>---------------------------
>There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
>got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
>and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
> Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

By the way, love the quote. Required showing for my players.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 3
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:38:34 -0500
> From: Tzeentch [mailto:tzeentch666@*********.net]
> Sent: March 31, 2000 04:29
>
> Everyone loves a gearhead!

How about an ex-mathie? :-)

> Ok, I heard about the handheld laser pistol from CC. Now, I
> don't have CC in
> my grubby gearhead claws yet but I did hear it does 12M.

At short range, yes.

> It does more damage then an assault rifle...ok. And powered
> by batteries
[snip]
> that SR weapon damages make no sense in a realism or even cohesiveness
> sense. We all know this (or should).

Yes, everybody knows that the SR damage codes are *not* in alignment
with reality (ie. the (modal) average pistol does more damage than an
assault rifle). So why... Nevermind.

> The equation for GURPS beam weapon damage is:
[snip]
> I used some round-about figures and then used my handy-dandy
[snip]
> My super-simplified GURPS to SR damage conversion is:
[snip]
> Not rocket science obviously.

Well, not far removed with all the hoops you've jumped through so
far. :-)

> That means the
> laser pistol from Cannon Companion is 300 mJ. The MP Laser

Did you *really* mean milli-Joules?

> In comparison the detonation of 1 kilogram of TNT gives off 5 MJ.

So, either the laser is weak enough to not worry about (mJ), or powerful
enough to utterly vaporize me in one blow (MJ)? Poor choice of scale,
I'd say...

*whips out 3G3*
Quickly calibrating the custom damage value converter to a few sample
points selected more or less at whim (light pistol 4, heavy pistol 6,
light rifle 8, heavy rifle 12), I came up with the following conversion
formula (should be good enough for a rough estimate at least):
SR Power ~= (DV^0.52)*1.2

So, a 12-power weapon should have a DV around 60. According to 3G3,
this DV requires 2250J. So, we have a disagreement between GURPS
and 3G3. Yes, all this proves is that these numbers prove nothing. :-)

For those curious, plugging in the parameters of the Redline into 3G3
(weight, clip size, etc), I ended up with this approximation:

Name Caliber RC DV IA Init Loaded/clip
Redline 5mm 3/4 58 2 -1 5.3kg/0.8kg

Bulk TL Cost Clip Action ROF AV BP
S/4 12/14 710 10 x 1 SA/C 4 11 10

James Ojaste
<resume mode="lurk"/>
Message no. 4
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:40:25 -0800
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>

> Think about what you just said. They may label them in the books as
> batteries, but from the description they're just high energy/high
discharge
> capacitors. Make them out of ultra thin sandwiched materials wrapped up
> into columns, one for each shot, and put them in a convenient carrying
box.

I can buy that. To steal some text from 2300AD (which has great science but
crappy rules):

"Lasers are powered by high-efficiency liquid metal suspension (LMS) battery
packs. Since a battery's discharge rate is insufficient to directly power a
strong beam, the battery "pumps" a fast-discharge homopolar generator, which
comprises most of the laser mechanism.

The generator stores energy in a rapidly spinning flywheel (about 50,000
rpm) until it has enough energy for a pulse."

> >Using Vehicles 2nd Edition I converted backwards to get an idea of the
> >energy output this thing would have. Now, in this we are limited by the
fact
> >that SR weapon damages make no sense in a realism or even cohesiveness
> >sense. We all know this (or should).
>
> True enough. There's a lot of "fudge factor" going on there.

Yeah, just a little ;)

> >The equation for GURPS beam weapon damage is:
> >(square root of output in kJ*)x .5 x 1.8571
> >* If less then 1000kJ then multiply by .03 instead
> >Note that the assumption is laser (.5) and refined tech. For the lasers
from
> >2050-era I'd use 1.5714 instead (Tech Level of introduction +1)
>
> Do they also figure in the changes in ranges over the different systems,
as
> the beam loses cohesiveness and spreads out over longer distances? While
> technically a laser has unlimited range, in an atmosphere in does get
> scattered by just about everything and quickly loses its effectiveness.
> Hence pulse lasers that burn in succession through the atmosphere being
> used for anti-missile systems.

Yes, 1/2 damage range is figured by the following formula:
(square root of output in kJ) x200* x1.3**
* = If ultraviolet, it's 60. If IR it's 170
**= For more "low tech" lasers use 1.1 or 1.2

Maximum effective range is twice that of 1/2 damage.

In this example the 300mJ laser pistol (which was designed using Tech Level
+3) would have a 1/2 damage range of 4,400 yards. 3400 yards if using the
1.1 multiplier.

Note that Mr. Pulver explicitely notes: "While range for energy weapons is
not physically dependent on output, more powerful energy weapons are also
assumed to have larger focusing arrays or longer beam tunnels, and as such
have a longer effective range."

Again, note I'm using the TL of introduction +3 options. You might want to
use a straight TL 9 option (TL+1). If you lower the TL the energy output has
to rise to do the same damage.

I have not yet done the numbers in Guns, Guns, Guns (mainly because it has a
lot of lookups).

> >I used some round-about figures and then used my handy-dandy GURPS to SR
> >damage conversion until I got a value near what I was looking for.
<snip>
> Okay, I'm sure that those numbers are at least pretty close, as you
usually
> think this things out pretty well. I'll completely agree with you that I
> can't think of how a battery could do that much. If you go for the
> high-discharge capacitor, its still pretty damn high, but at least within
> the realm of 60 years of science.

I can buy that, even given the compartive primitiveness of some SR tech. ;)

Pretty wierd when even science fiction can't keep up with science fact.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 5
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:30:52 -0800
Err, I meant kilojoules. Also, I was using the advanced Tech Levels for
lasers. If you uise lower tech the power requirements jump (inadequate
focusing, etc).

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs


> > From: Tzeentch [mailto:tzeentch666@*********.net]
> > Sent: March 31, 2000 04:29
> >
> > Everyone loves a gearhead!
>
> How about an ex-mathie? :-)
>
> > Ok, I heard about the handheld laser pistol from CC. Now, I
> > don't have CC in
> > my grubby gearhead claws yet but I did hear it does 12M.
>
> At short range, yes.
>
> > It does more damage then an assault rifle...ok. And powered
> > by batteries
> [snip]
> > that SR weapon damages make no sense in a realism or even cohesiveness
> > sense. We all know this (or should).
>
> Yes, everybody knows that the SR damage codes are *not* in alignment
> with reality (ie. the (modal) average pistol does more damage than an
> assault rifle). So why... Nevermind.
>
> > The equation for GURPS beam weapon damage is:
> [snip]
> > I used some round-about figures and then used my handy-dandy
> [snip]
> > My super-simplified GURPS to SR damage conversion is:
> [snip]
> > Not rocket science obviously.
>
> Well, not far removed with all the hoops you've jumped through so
> far. :-)
>
> > That means the
> > laser pistol from Cannon Companion is 300 mJ. The MP Laser
>
> Did you *really* mean milli-Joules?
>
> > In comparison the detonation of 1 kilogram of TNT gives off 5 MJ.
>
> So, either the laser is weak enough to not worry about (mJ), or powerful
> enough to utterly vaporize me in one blow (MJ)? Poor choice of scale,
> I'd say...
>
> *whips out 3G3*
> Quickly calibrating the custom damage value converter to a few sample
> points selected more or less at whim (light pistol 4, heavy pistol 6,
> light rifle 8, heavy rifle 12), I came up with the following conversion
> formula (should be good enough for a rough estimate at least):
> SR Power ~= (DV^0.52)*1.2
>
> So, a 12-power weapon should have a DV around 60. According to 3G3,
> this DV requires 2250J. So, we have a disagreement between GURPS
> and 3G3. Yes, all this proves is that these numbers prove nothing. :-)
>
> For those curious, plugging in the parameters of the Redline into 3G3
> (weight, clip size, etc), I ended up with this approximation:
>
> Name Caliber RC DV IA Init Loaded/clip
> Redline 5mm 3/4 58 2 -1 5.3kg/0.8kg
>
> Bulk TL Cost Clip Action ROF AV BP
> S/4 12/14 710 10 x 1 SA/C 4 11 10
>
> James Ojaste
> <resume mode="lurk"/>
>
>
>
Message no. 6
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 12:37:32 -0800
BTW: I accidently typed mJ a few times. All power output measurements are in
KILOJOULES. Thanks.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 7
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:01:45 -0600
Sommers said:
:>It should be obvious that to be 12M it should do 8d in GURPs. That means
the
:>laser pistol from Cannon Companion is 300 mJ. The MP Laser from SSC should
:>be about 425mJ (slightly older tech). With the refined version from FoF
:>being about 350mJ, they can get by with less power due to better focusing,
:>lenses, etc.
:>
:>In comparison the detonation of 1 kilogram of TNT gives off 5 MJ.

Heh, a pocket sized battery that stores 3000mJ, and can give it all up in 3
seconds or so. What happens when you drop one in a bucket of saltwater? ;-)

:Okay, I'm sure that those numbers are at least pretty close, as you usually
:think this things out pretty well. I'll completely agree with you that I
:can't think of how a battery could do that much. If you go for the
:high-discharge capacitor, its still pretty damn high, but at least within
:the realm of 60 years of science.


Theres a formula that gives the energy stored in a given capacitor
configuration (given surface area of "plates" and seperation) at any given
voltage. The trick is, if the volatge get to high, the voltage just
brigdges the speperation, so you need a good insulator between the plates.
Anybody care to calculate the voltage needed for a reasonable
nano-manufactured capacitor configuration that might fit in a pistol and
store 3000mJ? Can any insulator withstand that?
Lets see, given a 8 cm x 1 cm x 3 cm capacitor (leaves room for a case,
still makes it a "clip"), with layers 1 nanometer (1/100,000 of meter,
right?) thick, and similar insulation, we get the basic equivalent of two
flat 120m^2 plates seperated by a .00001m gap. Damn, wish I had a
highschool physics text... If nobody else does the math, I'll look it up on
the web...

Not that I really care.... :-)

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 8
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 19:58:51 -0600
:So, a 12-power weapon should have a DV around 60. According to 3G3,
:this DV requires 2250J. So, we have a disagreement between GURPS
:and 3G3. Yes, all this proves is that these numbers prove nothing. :-)

That sounds like muzzle energy, or impact energy. What the GURPS stats
Tzeentch was refering to (3000KJ, as he corrected himself to) are is
DISCHARGE energy, afaik, or the amount of power going INTO the lazer FROM
the battery. To get 2250J in the actual lazer beam, with a 3000KJ
discharge, you would only .75% effeciency, which is doable, afaik, even with
todays technolgy. So maybe you both are equally "right".
I do wonder what happens to the ~2997KJ of wasted energy (heat) that is
suddenly dumped into the mechanism, however. How hot is that gonna make the
gun, and how fast?

Mongoose

_____________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 9
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 13:31:27 -0500
Mongoose wrote:
> I do wonder what happens to the ~2997KJ of wasted energy
> (heat) that is
> suddenly dumped into the mechanism, however. How hot is that
> gonna make the
> gun, and how fast?

I could see some of this energy ending up not as heat, but as non-lazed
photons, sort of a light-leak, as it were, possibly out of the barrel.

Wordman
Message no. 10
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 00:04:05 -0800
From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
> That sounds like muzzle energy, or impact energy. What the GURPS
stats
> Tzeentch was refering to (3000KJ, as he corrected himself to) are is
> DISCHARGE energy, afaik, or the amount of power going INTO the lazer FROM
> the battery. To get 2250J in the actual lazer beam, with a 3000KJ
> discharge, you would only .75% effeciency, which is doable, afaik, even
with
> todays technolgy. So maybe you both are equally "right".

That should be only 300kJ BTW.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 11
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 15:37:44 -0800
From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
> :So, a 12-power weapon should have a DV around 60. According to 3G3,
> :this DV requires 2250J. So, we have a disagreement between GURPS
> :and 3G3. Yes, all this proves is that these numbers prove nothing. :-)
>
> That sounds like muzzle energy, or impact energy. What the GURPS
stats
> Tzeentch was refering to (3000KJ, as he corrected himself to) are is
> DISCHARGE energy, afaik, or the amount of power going INTO the lazer FROM
> the battery. To get 2250J in the actual lazer beam, with a 3000KJ
> discharge, you would only .75% effeciency, which is doable, afaik, even
with
> todays technolgy. So maybe you both are equally "right".

Yup, that sounds exactly right. The figures I quoted are what the
battery/homopolar generator is pumping into the beam.

I do not know what the efficiency actually is. In GURPS the energy used is
equal to what the beam output is (don't have the book in front of me
though). So conversion is near 100% for simplicity IIRC. What you put in is
what you get for the actual beam energy.

> I do wonder what happens to the ~2997KJ of wasted energy (heat) that
is
> suddenly dumped into the mechanism, however. How hot is that gonna make
the
> gun, and how fast?

I believe G3 has a sidebar dealing with that (it's in the railgun section).
I've somewhat avoided using my copy of G3 because there is a shitload of
math and table lookups I don't want to do ;) If anyone has the spreadsheet
(that they did NOT send me) I'd appreciate it.

I know David Pulver had some problems with G3, but it handles actually
building firearms better then Vehicles (which is mainly intended for vehicle
weapons). Perhaps combining the two might be useful.


Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 12
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:15:12 -0700
From: "Alfredo B Alves" <dghost@****.com>

> /me puts an orange pullover on Ken ... "Hey Kenny!" ;)
>
> I didn't pay too much attention to this thread due to classes ... did you
> ever figure out about how many PF the various Laser Weapons use?

Wah wah wa wah!

"What Kenny?"

Wa wah wah WAH!!!!

Seriously, hmm. Well running on the assumption that Shadowrun uses PFs as as
an abstract measure of "energy" you can reasonably say that 1 PF0
kilowatt seconds/kilojoules. This seems to hold up to scrutiny but of course
is also based on the unreasonably efficient solar cells in Rigger 2. Jon had
something of the same determination using a different
method(http://members.xoom.com/fedemp1cop/Shadowrun/Rules/sr_pf.htm).

Running backwords with my conversion
(http://members.xoom.com/fedemp1cop/Shadowrun/Rules/sr_beam.htm) we get the
following for SR laser weapons, take a quick note of the battery densities
as well - and thats factoring in the casings!

Weapon GURPS Damage Beam Power Power Use Battery
Density
Heavy Laser + 12d 622kJ
1244kW 4.15kJ/gram
Laser III 10d 519kJ
1038kW 10.38kJ/gram
Redline 8d 415kJ
830kW 8.3kJ/gram
Firelance 15d 778kJ
1556kW Unknown

Damages seem reasonable, but the battery densities are pretty insane.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 13
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 16:27:02 -0400
At 03:15 PM 5/9/00, Tzeentch wrote:
>Seriously, hmm. Well running on the assumption that Shadowrun uses PFs as as
>an abstract measure of "energy" you can reasonably say that 1 PF0
>kilowatt seconds/kilojoules. This seems to hold up to scrutiny but of course
>is also based on the unreasonably efficient solar cells in Rigger 2. Jon had
>something of the same determination using a different
>method(http://members.xoom.com/fedemp1cop/Shadowrun/Rules/sr_pf.htm).

What solar cell efficiencies did you get from R2?

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 14
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:35:31 -0700
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>> At 03:15 PM 5/9/00, Tzeentch
wrote:
> What solar cell efficiencies did you get from R2?

.08kW/sq foot. Which (since I used GURPS) is Tech Level 9. Also assumption
is 1 Body=approx. 10 sq feet. Just be glad I did not use Fire, Fusion and
Steel or I would have had some REALLY whacked results ;)

http://members.xoom.com/fedemp1cop/Shadowrun/Rules/sr_pf.htm

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 15
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:53:19 -0500
On Tue, 9 May 2000 12:15:12 -0700 "Tzeentch" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Seriously, hmm. Well running on the assumption that Shadowrun uses
> PFs as as
> an abstract measure of "energy" you can reasonably say that 1 PF0
> kilowatt seconds/kilojoules. This seems to hold up to scrutiny but
> of course
> is also based on the unreasonably efficient solar cells in Rigger 2.
> Jon had
> something of the same determination using a different
> method(http://members.xoom.com/fedemp1cop/Shadowrun/Rules/sr_pf.htm).
>
> Running backwords with my conversion
> (http://members.xoom.com/fedemp1cop/Shadowrun/Rules/sr_beam.htm) we
> get the
> following for SR laser weapons, take a quick note of the battery
> densities
> as well - and thats factoring in the casings!

/me has no idea how (un)reasonable they are :)

> Weapon GURPS Damage Beam Power Power Use
> Battery
> Density
> Heavy Laser + 12d 622kJ
> 1244kW 4.15kJ/gram
> Laser III 10d 519kJ
> 1038kW 10.38kJ/gram
> Redline 8d 415kJ
> 830kW 8.3kJ/gram
> Firelance 15d 778kJ
> 1556kW Unknown
>
> Damages seem reasonable, but the battery densities are pretty
> insane.

Okay. Let me see if I read all this correctly. 1 PF = 190 Kilowatt
seconds or 1 PF = 190 kiloJoules (i should prolly grab a physics book off
my shelf to see if that makes sense ... damn I'm a lazy bastard ;) ).
Therefore:
Weapon PF per shot*
Heavy Laser + 3.3
Laser III 2.7
Redline 2.2
Firelance 4.1
*rounded off to 2 significant figures.

You want insane? How many CF/kg does increased fuel cost for electric
vehicles? Zero! Zero CF and zero kg! Duct tape an micro crawler with
1,000,000 PF to your Redline and you have 454,545 shots! Ick! Wanna
calculate THAT batery density? :)

Alfredo
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 16
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 19:13:34 -0400
At 04:35 PM 5/9/2000, Tzeentch wrote:
>From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>> At 03:15 PM 5/9/00,
Tzeentch
>wrote:
> > What solar cell efficiencies did you get from R2?
>
>.08kW/sq foot. Which (since I used GURPS) is Tech Level 9. Also assumption
>is 1 Body=approx. 10 sq feet. Just be glad I did not use Fire, Fusion and
>Steel or I would have had some REALLY whacked results ;)

Right now the best mass produced cells are coming in about 20-25%
efficiency, which translates to a little over .023 kw/sq ft. Now there
isn't a direct correlation between efficiency and power production, but
that should translate to around 35-40% efficiency. Right now that seems out
of whack, but it took about 50 years to go from 8-10% to the current tech.
With new insights into materials, especially involving crystal growth in
orbital factories, .08 seems high but not unreasonable.


Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 17
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: -Gearhead - Cannon Companion: Laser Outputs
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:32:51 -0700
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
> Right now the best mass produced cells are coming in about 20-25%
> efficiency, which translates to a little over .023 kw/sq ft. Now there
> isn't a direct correlation between efficiency and power production, but
> that should translate to around 35-40% efficiency. Right now that seems
out
> of whack, but it took about 50 years to go from 8-10% to the current tech.
> With new insights into materials, especially involving crystal growth in
> orbital factories, .08 seems high but not unreasonable.

I should note I have been considerably influenced by third-parties on this
issue - although their solutions to make it more realistic push the
boundaries of acceptable math for a role-playing game. And that should say a
lot coming from me! :)

For reference, Shadowrun is primarily Tech Level (TL) 8 in GURPS terms, with
some areas stretching to TL9 or even TL10 while others seem to be stuck in
TL7.

GURPS VEHICLES SOLAR ARRAYS
TL7 (modern) cells in V2ed give 0.02kW/sq foot
TL8 give 0.04
TL9+ give 0.08

Of course thats theoretical efficiency, and will be much less because of
atmospheric effects/absorbtion, angle of the sun, etc etc.

I converted the FFS values to GURPS terms and got similar power outputs but
MUCH higher weights. For those that care here is what I from FFS:

FIRE, FUSION AND STEEL SOLAR ARRAYS
TL WEIGHT COST kW
6 5.7 (1.2) .01
7 5.3 (1.2) .015
8 4.9 (.8) .02
E9 4.7 (.61) .025
M9 4.5 (.4) .03
L9 4.3 (.2) .035
10 4.3 (.2) .04
*Here's what I have for FFS solar arrays in GURPS statistics. Note that the
efficiency seems ok...the weight is WAY higher then V2ed though. Mainly
because I used 1 cubic meter of cells with 100 sq meters of collector panels
(as it suggest for habitable zones). Since I used 1 cubic meter of cells for
simplicity I had to use their "2 tonnes/cubic meter). Without that you get
LOT lower weights (see paranthesis values) but are still very high.

I've also converted HPGs and EPG cartridges to Vehicles stats if anyones
interested ;)

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'

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