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Message no. 1
From: Chris McKinnon <cmckinno@********.CA>
Subject: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 00:33:50 -0400
Along the lines of discussion, when Physical Adepts lose Magic points, do
they pick up a geas?



=============================================================================
Enigma = "Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun..."
Chris McKinnon = - Ash, Army of Darkness
cmckinno@********.ca =
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:27:06 +0200
>Along the lines of discussion, when Physical Adepts lose Magic points, do
>they pick up a geas?

No. They must "only" give up one or more of their powers.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A lunatic just barking at the moon
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 3
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 13:15:23 -0400
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Chris McKinnon wrote:

> Along the lines of discussion, when Physical Adepts lose Magic points, do
> they pick up a geas?

In my campaign they do, but I would imagine that it's ultimately
up to each individual. Neither the Grimoire nor the basic Shadowrun book
deals with the penalties for physads breaking geas. Thus, it was either
a) not intended for physads to pick up geasa, or b) an oversight on the
part of FASA. Your choice.

Marc
Message no. 4
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 13:34:44 -0400
On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Chris McKinnon wrote:
> > Along the lines of discussion, when Physical Adepts lose Magic points, do
> > they pick up a geas?
> In my campaign they do, but I would imagine that it's ultimately
> up to each individual. Neither the Grimoire nor the basic Shadowrun book
> deals with the penalties for physads breaking geas. Thus, it was either
> a) not intended for physads to pick up geasa, or b) an oversight on the
> part of FASA. Your choice.

Not in mine. Unlike mages, who can use Foci to increase their
magic rating for those force 6's they can't cast anymore, a Physical
Adept LOOSES his powers when his MR goes down. So, to also increase his
DN for the stuff he has LEFT? No, that makes PhysAds really low on the
balance scale...

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 5
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 18:54:30 +0200
At 10.27 11/09/95 +0200, you wrote:
>>Along the lines of discussion, when Physical Adepts lose Magic points, do
>>they pick up a geas?
>
>No. They must "only" give up one or more of their powers.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

Now I'm quite touched by this events...

My physad had (HAD) killing hands Deadly (4 points) and +1 reaction (1
point) with essence at 5.3. Now, after the usual deadly wound, he failed to
roll his magic. He loose 1 magic point, making the available at 4 points.

I decided to drop off 1 level of KH, going to S so using only 2 points. Now,
Arti has 1 point of reaction enhancement and 2 points of KH(S). He has 1
point left to use.

Did he get a new power? Right from the scratch? (ok, I'll take
lowlight/thermo, thanks)

Comments?

Bye, Paolo
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Trieste, Italy
Ph. +39-40-774488
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Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 23:12:17 +0200
>My physad had (HAD) killing hands Deadly (4 points) and +1 reaction (1
>point) with essence at 5.3. Now, after the usual deadly wound, he failed to
>roll his magic. He loose 1 magic point, making the available at 4 points.

Start initiating, Paolo :)

>I decided to drop off 1 level of KH, going to S so using only 2 points. Now,
>Arti has 1 point of reaction enhancement and 2 points of KH(S). He has 1
>point left to use.
>
>Did he get a new power? Right from the scratch? (ok, I'll take
>lowlight/thermo, thanks)

Actually I think you have to give up a power completely, so you would have a
hole of 3 points of Magic; you don't downgrade a power a bit so it falls
within the newly-allowed Magic rating. (You can do it the other way around,
though -- upgrade a power when you get the "space" for it.)
But anyway, you can take a new power -- if you have any MP left you can
spend it on a new power any time you want. So you could take the LL and
thermo and still have .5 Magic left for something else.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Be all that they told you
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 7
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 16:51:03 -0500
On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Gurth wrote:
>
> Actually I think you have to give up a power completely, so you would have a
> hole of 3 points of Magic; you don't downgrade a power a bit so it falls
> within the newly-allowed Magic rating. (You can do it the other way around,
> though -- upgrade a power when you get the "space" for it.)
> But anyway, you can take a new power -- if you have any MP left you can
> spend it on a new power any time you want. So you could take the LL and
> thermo and still have .5 Magic left for something else.
>
Can't he just give up killing hands and take it again at a lower power?
Seems kinda harsh to lose one point of magic and get everything you've
spent on killing hands sucked away...

Kilroy
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Message no. 8
From: "Gary L. Kelley" <gkelley@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 01:04:41 -0500
>My physad had (HAD) killing hands Deadly (4 points) and +1 reaction (1
>point) with essence at 5.3. Now, after the usual deadly wound, he failed to
>roll his magic. He loose 1 magic point, making the available at 4 points.
>
>I decided to drop off 1 level of KH, going to S so using only 2 points. Now,
>Arti has 1 point of reaction enhancement and 2 points of KH(S). He has 1
>point left to use.
>
>Did he get a new power? Right from the scratch? (ok, I'll take
>lowlight/thermo, thanks)
>
>Comments?
>
>Bye, Paolo


OK can you explain some thing. The way I understand it you *spend* your
magical points to get the extra powers, so is that all you can get or at
some later time can you *spend* them again and get more. Or maybe use karma.
and no I don`t have the grim yet so it would be helpful if yuo wouldn`t
refer me to that. :)
The way I see it the phyad would be a pretty weak character if you couldn`t
advance him in any way.

Kevin R. Kelley

Comments?
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 12:49:14 +0200
>Can't he just give up killing hands and take it again at a lower power?
>Seems kinda harsh to lose one point of magic and get everything you've
>spent on killing hands sucked away...

I don't think so. But remember that this it only technically so -- you can
take a new power when you have MP to spend, so if you lose a multiple-point
power because you lose 1 MP, you have a hole that you can fill with anything
you want.
Take Paolo's char as an example -- he lost 1 MP, so he gave up a 4 MP power,
but in effect took a 2-point power back for it. That still leaves him with 1
unused MP to spend on other things.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Be all that they told you
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 12:49:47 +0200
>OK can you explain some thing. The way I understand it you *spend* your
>magical points to get the extra powers, so is that all you can get

Yes. Once you've spent all your 6 Magic Points, you're "full."

>or at
>some later time can you *spend* them again and get more.

Once spent, you cannot spend them again on different powers. But don't
despair, read on :)

>Or maybe use karma.
>and no I don`t have the grim yet so it would be helpful if yuo wouldn`t
>refer me to that. :)

In the Grimthingy is what is called "initiation" -- you spend loads of Karma
to buy yourself extra Magic Points. A physad can then spent these MP on new
powers.

>The way I see it the phyad would be a pretty weak character if you couldn`t
>advance him in any way.

As we've discussed before (especially Jani, Bob, and Damion :) a physad is
weaker than a street sam when both have been newly designed. Add in a few
initiation grades, and a physad usually equals or exceeds a sam.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Be all that they told you
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 11
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 05:56:48 -0500
On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Gurth wrote:
> As we've discussed before (especially Jani, Bob, and Damion :) a physad is
> weaker than a street sam when both have been newly designed. Add in a few
> initiation grades, and a physad usually equals or exceeds a sam.

Unless of course the sam has managed to pick up a bit of custom cyber and
bioware and boosted his skills (using karma the phys ad has to spend on
grades)in that time...

Kilroy

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http://yar.cs.wisc.edu:80/~kilroy/
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 21:59:11 +0930
Charles McKenzie wrote:
> Unless of course the sam has managed to pick up a bit of custom cyber and
> bioware and boosted his skills (using karma the phys ad has to spend on
> grades)in that time...

Depends on the style of run you make... I run games which are fairly
nuyen-poor, which makes it harder for the sams to get that cyber. (It's so
hard, in fact, that the only way they get good cyber is second-hand, or as
payment in kind, if they're lucky (I did throw an experimental set of
wired-2 their way, once)).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 13
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:01:46 -0400
On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Charles McKenzie wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Gurth wrote:
> > As we've discussed before (especially Jani, Bob, and Damion :) a physad is
> > weaker than a street sam when both have been newly designed. Add in a few
> > initiation grades, and a physad usually equals or exceeds a sam.

> Unless of course the sam has managed to pick up a bit of custom cyber and
> bioware and boosted his skills (using karma the phys ad has to spend on
> grades)in that time...

Don't start this. Don't even *begin* to start it. The physad
vs. samurai argument has been beaten to death, and *neither* is any
better than the other.

Marc
Message no. 14
From: "Russell A. Akred" <Phrealance@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:32:55 -0400
Wouldn't a more realistic argument for the Physad vs. Street Sam be the role
playing aspect. With the loss of humanity a street sam would be the guy
attached to the chunk of metal. The physad would me a man/woman driven by the
powers he possesses. The street sam is trying to work with the machine while
the adept is working with his relation to the mana around him.
There veiw of the world would also be 180 degrees. If your looking at rules
then you are simply trying ti minimax and the only chalenges presented to you
in the game can be solved with a good dice roll. If that's the case you
should go shoot craps.
Message no. 15
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:26:57 +0200
> As we've discussed before (especially Jani, Bob, and Damion :) a physad is
> weaker than a street sam when both have been newly designed. Add in a few
> initiation grades, and a physad usually equals or exceeds a sam.

Pardon me, but that was not the outcome of our litle "debate". The PA
kicked ass bigtime. PAs might not me able to compete with sammies where
speed is concerned (not without mondo karma and some customised magical
items), but they sure kick ass where skill (as oposed to speed) plays
the important role.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:43:14 +0200
>Unless of course the sam has managed to pick up a bit of custom cyber and
>bioware and boosted his skills (using karma the phys ad has to spend on
>grades)in that time...

Yes and no. A street samurai only has so much Essence to use on cyberware,
while a physad can, in theory, initiate to an infinite grade. Of course the
trouble is getting enough Karma together to do that, but it's possible. And
if you combine cyberware, bioware, and magic into one physad, you can get
"better" than a street sam relatively quickly.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:43:36 +0200
>Wouldn't a more realistic argument for the Physad vs. Street Sam be the role
>playing aspect. With the loss of humanity a street sam would be the guy
>attached to the chunk of metal.

What loss of humanity?

>The physad would me a man/woman driven by the
>powers he possesses. The street sam is trying to work with the machine while
>the adept is working with his relation to the mana around him.
>There veiw of the world would also be 180 degrees.

Not necessarily. It is not always munchkin to integrate cyberware and magic,
no matter what people may scream. Sure it can be, but I say you can very
well have a physad with a good roleplaying excuse as to why he or she has
wired reflexes instead of the magical reflex boost.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 18
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:26:06 GMT
"Gary L. Kelley"
>
> OK can you explain some thing. The way I understand it you *spend* your
> magical points to get the extra powers, so is that all you can get or at
you 'spend' points as in allocate them, they are not 'used up' you
still have them but you can only but so many powers.

> some later time can you *spend* them again and get more.
ah yes that wonderfully ambiguous comment at the end of Phsads in the
main book. Two ways to look at it.
1) you don't have to allocate all your points as soon as you get
them, you can save them to allocate later. [this is the correct
interpretation, FASA made it clear in the Grimoire]

2) the nice one, you can later gain more magic points, and then spend
them to get more powers. This is not what this comment meant, but if
you but the Grimoire there is a way of doing this.

> Or maybe use karma.
you cannot directly raise magic with karma, however it can be done
indirectly

> and no I don`t have the grim yet so it would be helpful if yuo wouldn`t
> refer me to that. :)
don't have a lot of choice, basically Physads look a bit weak at base
because they require Initation (which is in the grimoire) to advance
thier physical adept abilities, however they can still put up thier
skills anyway.

> The way I see it the phyad would be a pretty weak character if you
> couldn`t advance him in any way.
Unfortunately you will have to buy the Grimoire to solve that,
however with initation they become potentially the most powerful
characters as they acn do everythig a samurai can do with cyber and
bioware and have the phsad powers as well. [abusing this though takes
serious karma and newyen, unless you like munchkins]

>
> Kevin R. Kelley
>
Mark
Message no. 19
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:58:55 +0200
Sigh.

I should have know what will happen when one starts talking about physads....

The whole point of my request was: if it is conceivable that a character
loose some powers due to a deadly wound, how can he gain brand new powers
simply by declaring it? I mean, suddenly Arti wakes up on the doctor's bed
and starts to astral perceive. Role-playing, anyone? Even spending a
drekload of karma to get a skill at level 5/6 required months of studies
(ok, I've told the GM a guy told me everything about computers during our
street basketball plays :), why getting a new power, THIS WAY, should be
instantaneous?

And BTW, my physad is better than your sammie :)

Bye, Paolo
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InterWare Service Provider http://www.interware.it/users/paolo
Trieste, Italy
Ph. +39-40-774488
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Message no. 20
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:59:59 +0200
> >Unless of course the sam has managed to pick up a bit of custom cyber and
> >bioware and boosted his skills (using karma the phys ad has to spend on
> >grades)in that time...
>
> Yes and no. A street samurai only has so much Essence to use on cyberware,
> while a physad can, in theory, initiate to an infinite grade.

Ah, but a samurai can stuff himself with bioware (he doesnt loose magic
after all) and we all know that a PA will never be able to reach that
18+4d6 a starting sammie can get.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)
Message no. 21
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:45:24 +0930
Paolo Marcucci wrote:
>
> The whole point of my request was: if it is conceivable that a character
> loose some powers due to a deadly wound, how can he gain brand new powers
> simply by declaring it? I mean, suddenly Arti wakes up on the doctor's bed
> and starts to astral perceive. Role-playing, anyone? Even spending a
> drekload of karma to get a skill at level 5/6 required months of studies
> (ok, I've told the GM a guy told me everything about computers during our
> street basketball plays :), why getting a new power, THIS WAY, should be
> instantaneous?

Of course it's not conceivable... these powers are powers they are born
with. After some time and effort (read, initiation), they may be able to
improve on them, but they should never be able to swap them around.

If a physad loses a power, and decides to give up more than one magic point
of powers, then they have lost access to that extra magic until they
initiate, which allows them to channel their abilities in new ways.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 22
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:15:54 GMT
Jani Fikouras


> Ah, but a samurai can stuff himself with bioware (he doesnt loose magic
> after all)
that is the sams only advantage, and theroetically can be offset by
karma.

> and we all know that a PA will never be able to reach that
> 18+4d6 a starting sammie can get.
>
You can do far, far worse than that, ok given time but try.
Quickness 6 + 4(locked), same int, thats reaction 10, now +3 reac, 6
levels reaction enhancer, (cybertechnology), thats 19. Lock +3D6
initative, (useful things friendly magicians), get phsad power +1d6
(maybe +2 or 3), with grade 3 for masking all foci (something the
poor sam cannot do) well above is around 20 + 5D6 or more. Ok certain
DLOH ruling might get a bit in the way, and there are far more
interesting things to do with so much character advancement but.


> --
Mark
Message no. 23
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:46:49 +0200
}Sigh.
}
}I should have know what will happen when one starts talking about physads....
}
}
}The whole point of my request was: if it is conceivable that a character
}loose some powers due to a deadly wound, how can he gain brand new powers
}simply by declaring it? I mean, suddenly Arti wakes up on the doctor's bed
}and starts to astral perceive. Role-playing, anyone? Even spending a
}drekload of karma to get a skill at level 5/6 required months of studies
}(ok, I've told the GM a guy told me everything about computers during our
}street basketball plays :), why getting a new power, THIS WAY, should be
}instantaneous?
}
}And BTW, my physad is better than your sammie :)

'Cause he had nothing better to do while in hospital. After all
lying on your back for a couple of weeks is downright boring. So he
realised that his aura was severly disrupted by the wound, and tried
using the tattered remains, to pull himself together <grin>

A half-hearted answer... but seriously, you loose, you train to
get something else. Thats like saying okay, you've lost your right
arm. You automatically gain a specilzation in left handed combat, and
at the same time due to the wound your intellegence goes up by one.
A little pointless

Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 24
From: Nurse Wratchet <Wratchet-RN@**.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:03:08 -0700
>Sigh.
>
>I should have know what will happen when one starts talking about physads....
>
>The whole point of my request was: if it is conceivable that a character
>loose some powers due to a deadly wound, how can he gain brand new powers
>simply by declaring it? I mean, suddenly Arti wakes up on the doctor's bed
>and starts to astral perceive. Role-playing, anyone? Even spending a
>drekload of karma to get a skill at level 5/6 required months of studies
>(ok, I've told the GM a guy told me everything about computers during our
>street basketball plays :), why getting a new power, THIS WAY, should be
>instantaneous?
>
I concur, Paolo. I have always had a hard time with this notion of sudden
insight into new ways to apply the phys ad powers. The Phys Ad Handybook,
which I think you have in yur archive, has an intresting system for phys ad
abilities. I modified the existing rules to include those in the handybook
(or a semblance of those in the book), the phys ad must study various
abilities via karma or Magic Rating purchase and can select form these they
have studied. They then use meditation to attune their auras to manifest
the abilites they selected. The result is that when a phys ad looses magic,
their auras go into a type of shock where they may loose (unatune) all the
abilites they have attuned (similar to damaging cyberware) and least 1 point
and a subsequant ability will become unattuned. The phys ad then must
reattune their auras with the new reduced magic rating.

My discourse is a bit confusing so here is an example: Wonder Boy the phys
ad Grade 1 has a 7 MR, he has studied Killing Hands, Reaction Increase,
Astral Percept, Skill increase Martial Arts and Skill Increase Stealth. He
has Astral Percept, Killing Hands S, and Reaction Increase 1, and Skill MA+1
(I think those are the right values, I do not have my book currently, but
the toatl should be 7) He takes a Deadly Wound and unfortunately looses 1
pnt of Magic. He fails his Magic roll to resist the shock to his aura and
all his attuned abilities are now unattuned. He now must spend time
Meditating to reattune all his abilities but only has 6 MR to work with and
can choose only from those abilites he has studied above.

This may seem like slamming the phys ad from two angles by making them pay
for their abilites with Karma so let me clarify. The phys ad can 'purchase'
new abilites two ways via Magic Rating and via Karma. Time is required for
both. I won't go into the details of whys and wherefores, but this has
worked for me.

Hope this helped, and didn't just add to the confusion.
My opions are (well you know how that goes) . . .

Shalam
Nurse Wratchet (was Brian)
*****************************************************************
Life is a waste of wearisome hours,
Which seldom the rose of enjoyment adorns,
And the heart that is soonest awake to the flowers,
Is always the first to be touch'd be the throns.
-Sir Thomas Moore (1779-1852)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Remember chummers: change is good! But nuyen is better.
Am I making any cents?"
This thought is sponsored by:
"Nurse Wratchet":Wratchet-RN@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************
Message no. 25
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 13:06:08 -0400
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Gurth wrote:
> no matter what people may scream. Sure it can be, but I say you can very
> well have a physad with a good roleplaying excuse as to why he or she has
> wired reflexes instead of the magical reflex boost.

Like a char of mine. Was in the army, got the first set of Wired
II around...but we made it cost 4.0 essence instead of 3.0 due to being
new... He was special forces... Put the Physad stuff into athletics and
Stealth...could sneak up on anyone for the 'kill.'

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 26
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:25:15 GMT
Gurth wrote:
> It is not always munchkin to integrate cyberware and magic,
> no matter what people may scream. Sure it can be, but I say you can very
> well have a physad with a good roleplaying excuse as to why he or she has
> wired reflexes instead of the magical reflex boost.

My Wolf shaman has wired reflexes-2, because he needs to be fast enough to
protect his friends yet must not endanger them (having had one area-effect
spell grounded out through a spell lock, he never used one again).

The wires and his other cyberware make him fast and dangerous, but also
penalise his magic (despite his being an initiate... he ran up against a
"pure" magician of similar grade one time, and had a very hard time of it).
It balances nicely if you handle it well.

As a joke we created the Munchkin from Hell cybermage... it can be done,
but (s)he wouldn't be any fun to play. "So how did you get that way? Why
do you know that spell?"
"Er, I get more dice?"

Small point, BTW... watch what "custom" spells your mages create as a result
of adventures. Lock a guy up in a cell, and see him write an "acid touch"
spell designed to dissolve locks, bars, hinges, whatever...

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 27
From: "Gary L. Kelley" <gkelley@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:26:44 -0500
>>The physad would me a man/woman driven by the
>>powers he possesses. The street sam is trying to work with the machine while
>>the adept is working with his relation to the mana around him.
>>There veiw of the world would also be 180 degrees.
>
>Not necessarily. It is not always munchkin to integrate cyberware and magic,
>no matter what people may scream. Sure it can be, but I say you can very
>well have a physad with a good roleplaying excuse as to why he or she has
>wired reflexes instead of the magical reflex boost.
>
Yeah like it happened before they knew they where magically active. Like how
Sam got his datajack in SOP 1. If your working for a corp and they say you
get this guess what you do, or you leave.
KRK
a.k.a.:Saba Yu
Message no. 28
From: Mike <ASMAD@*****.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:29:07 -0800
I can only think of one way to resolve this situation. Have the PA go ahead
and get the lower level of killing hands. But make sure that the character
was not fully aware of what happened, just that he feels different in some
way. Then when he enters combat and tries to use killing hands, he realizes
that he's not damaginghis opponents in the same way. But it would be very
essential that the character have a sort of hollow feeling when he left the
hospital, but not be able to figure out what was wrong. Then have him initiate
and get new powers to fill the void.
Mike Driggins
aka Draco
Message no. 29
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:24:33 -0500
On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > >Unless of course the sam has managed to pick up a bit of custom cyber and
> > >bioware and boosted his skills (using karma the phys ad has to spend on
> > >grades)in that time...

My god...I've restarted a monster...
Kilroy

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http://yar.cs.wisc.edu:80/~kilroy/
Message no. 30
From: Paolo Marcucci <paolo@*********.IT>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:18:47 +0200
At 15.29 18/09/95 -0800, you wrote:
>I can only think of one way to resolve this situation. Have the PA go ahead
>and get the lower level of killing hands. But make sure that the character
>was not fully aware of what happened, just that he feels different in some
>way. Then when he enters combat and tries to use killing hands, he realizes
>that he's not damaginghis opponents in the same way. But it would be very
>essential that the character have a sort of hollow feeling when he left the
>hospital, but not be able to figure out what was wrong. Then have him initiate
>and get new powers to fill the void.
> Mike Driggins
> aka Draco

Ok, that seems nice to him, but a problem remains (maybe I wasn't clear...):

Killing hands (D) = 4 points
Killing Hands (S) = 2 points

Lowering the level of KH leaves 1 empty slot that (by the rules) I can fill.
Of course Arti can declare anything he wants, but I'm looking for a special
event, a trial, a call from a totem :), to get this new power.

"He feels his hands weaker now, the explosive strength gone... and he starts
to look into his own soul. What happened? Why me? An answer pops up clear,
definite. A call. A call? Yes. I'm Shark."

Excusez moi for the writing :)

Bye, Paolo
------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider http://www.interware.it/users/paolo
Trieste, Italy
Ph. +39-40-774488
------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of The Shadowrun Archive
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:27:38 +0200
>> As we've discussed before (especially Jani, Bob, and Damion :) a physad is
>> weaker than a street sam when both have been newly designed. Add in a few
>> initiation grades, and a physad usually equals or exceeds a sam.
>
> Pardon me, but that was not the outcome of our litle "debate". The PA
>kicked ass bigtime. PAs might not me able to compete with sammies where
>speed is concerned (not without mondo karma and some customised magical
>items), but they sure kick ass where skill (as oposed to speed) plays
>the important role.

Oops. I got it mixed up (again...)

But wait a sec, are you saying he kicked Mr. Indestructible's ass?

Anyway you are confirming my own experiences, at least where fighting
spirits is concerned ;) In our group, the physad with the weapon focus takes
down most of the spirits which the sam has quite some trouble with. But then
again, maybe that's because the sam tends to shoot his gun at them :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 32
From: Mike <ASMAD@*****.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:46:48 -0800
> Ok, that seems nice to him, but a problem remains (maybe I wasn't clear...):
>
> Killing hands (D) = 4 points
> Killing Hands (S) = 2 points
>
> Lowering the level of KH leaves 1 empty slot that (by the rules) I can fill.
> Of course Arti can declare anything he wants, but I'm looking for a special
> event, a trial, a call from a totem :), to get this new power.
>
> "He feels his hands weaker now, the explosive strength gone... and he starts
> to look into his own soul. What happened? Why me? An answer pops up clear,
> definite. A call. A call? Yes. I'm Shark."
>
> Excusez moi for the writing :)
>
> Bye, Paolo
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
> InterWare Service Provider http://www.interware.it/users/paolo
> Trieste, Italy
> Ph. +39-40-774488
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
But that extra point is what makes for a great role-play situation. You could
have Arti wander around for a while, with this great sense of loss. Then you
can have him become really desperate to fill this emptiness that he feels
inside. Then, in desperation, he could go from mage to mage and shaman to
shaman, until finally he meets this old AmerInd shaman who makes him embark on
a vision quest. On the quest, he would discover that one of the totems, let's
say Wolf for example, has been keeping an eye on his plight and asks him to do
a small favor for him. And in return Wolf will help to ease his sense of loss.
And thus he has his newfound ability.
Just finding the right shaman and doing the vision quest could make for some
interesting runs. Imagine the sense of the PA projecting himself through the
metaplanes (yes I know they can't do this by the rules, buy hey, rules are made
to be broken:) and meeting a totem. If modern AmerInds can do it where there
is, supposedly, no magic, why not a PA? But it should be something that drives
the character to near death and only done once.
Well that's how I would go about it. Sure it would take some time to do,
but then it would feel that much better for the character, and the player, when
the ordeal is over and he's whole again.


Mike Driggins
asmad@*****.alaska.edu
Message no. 33
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:51:22 +0200
> > Pardon me, but that was not the outcome of our litle "debate". The PA
> >kicked ass bigtime. PAs might not me able to compete with sammies where
> >speed is concerned (not without mondo karma and some customised magical
> >items), but they sure kick ass where skill (as oposed to speed) plays
> >the important role.
>
> Oops. I got it mixed up (again...)
>
> But wait a sec, are you saying he kicked Mr. Indestructible's ass?

Mr. Indestructible didnt stand halv a chance. Bob Ootons design
(a guy with a tac-comp) fared much better, but he too got called home
by the plumed serpent after a couple of phases.
29 dice tend not to sweat such trivial things as 18 body :)

BTW I still got the transcript, I could mail it to ya if you like.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

Moderator of alt.c00ld00z (coolness in general)
Message no. 34
From: Doug Miller <enigma@********.JPL.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 02:10:18 +0000
On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Mike wrote:

> But that extra point is what makes for a great role-play situation. You could
> have Arti wander around for a while, with this great sense of loss. Then you
> can have him become really desperate to fill this emptiness that he feels
> inside. Then, in desperation, he could go from mage to mage and shaman to
> shaman, until finally he meets this old AmerInd shaman who makes him embark on
> a vision quest. On the quest, he would discover that one of the totems, let's
> say Wolf for example, has been keeping an eye on his plight and asks him to do
> a small favor for him. And in return Wolf will help to ease his sense of loss.
> And thus he has his newfound ability.
> Just finding the right shaman and doing the vision quest could make for some
> interesting runs. Imagine the sense of the PA projecting himself through the
> metaplanes (yes I know they can't do this by the rules, buy hey, rules are made
> to be broken:) and meeting a totem. If modern AmerInds can do it where there
> is, supposedly, no magic, why not a PA? But it should be something that drives
> the character to near death and only done once.
> Well that's how I would go about it. Sure it would take some time to do,
> but then it would feel that much better for the character, and the player, when
> the ordeal is over and he's whole again.

This sounds a lot like the idea I had concerning mages changing to
shamans. Just an idle observation. :)

> Mike Driggins
> asmad@*****.alaska.edu
>
Doug
Message no. 35
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:22:09 +0200
>The whole point of my request was: if it is conceivable that a character
>loose some powers due to a deadly wound, how can he gain brand new powers
>simply by declaring it?

Since FASA doesn't indicate time required to learn stuff except for spells,
yes it is. You might want to set a certain time period per Magic Point, for
instance a day per MP, so your Killing Hands (S) would be 2 days' learning.
Just an example, vary the times as you see fit :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 36
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:22:12 +0200
> Ah, but a samurai can stuff himself with bioware (he doesnt loose magic
>after all) and we all know that a PA will never be able to reach that
>18+4d6 a starting sammie can get.

True, but you were the one who said that a physad kicks a sammie's ass
because of the better skills (s)he can have, not because of the higher
initiative. Face it, initiative is only important if you start shooting
guns. If you engage in melee combat, a high initiative is only useful
because your Combat Pool refreshes more often.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:23:19 +0200
>> and we all know that a PA will never be able to reach that
>> 18+4d6 a starting sammie can get.
>>
>You can do far, far worse than that, ok given time but try.
[snip]
>around 20 + 5D6 or more.

Note Jani said "starting sammie" Even with Cybertech you can't really get
over 18+4D6 as a starting character because it is too expensive even if you
take 1M nuyen.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 38
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:30:58 +0200
> > Ah, but a samurai can stuff himself with bioware (he doesnt loose magic
> >after all) and we all know that a PA will never be able to reach that
> >18+4d6 a starting sammie can get.
>
> True, but you were the one who said that a physad kicks a sammie's ass
> because of the better skills (s)he can have, not because of the higher
> initiative. Face it, initiative is only important if you start shooting
> guns. If you engage in melee combat, a high initiative is only useful
> because your Combat Pool refreshes more often.

This goes without saying, not only for melee combat but for sniping
and many other kinds of combat too. The problem however is that
speed is still the most "versatile" way to kill as gives ya an all-
around advantage compared to pure skills. Thats why munchkins always
go for the speedy look instead of the skilled type of character.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:13:20 +0200
>> But wait a sec, are you saying he kicked Mr. Indestructible's ass?
>
> Mr. Indestructible didnt stand halv a chance. Bob Ootons design
>(a guy with a tac-comp) fared much better, but he too got called home
>by the plumed serpent after a couple of phases.
> 29 dice tend not to sweat such trivial things as 18 body :)

Ahem. And all that without Cybertechnology... :) I think you guys went a bit
over the top with that munchkin competition, didn't you?

BTW, anyone else see that FASA ad for Cybertech?

> BTW I still got the transcript, I could mail it to ya if you like.

Well, it could be interesting...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 40
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:17:53 +0200
> This goes without saying, not only for melee combat but for sniping
>and many other kinds of combat too. The problem however is that
>speed is still the most "versatile" way to kill as gives ya an all-
>around advantage compared to pure skills. Thats why munchkins always
>go for the speedy look instead of the skilled type of character.

That's only natural: after your first firefight in SR you start thinking
about upgrading your initiative, because most people are smart enough to
notice that slowÞad in SR, at least in straight-out firefights where
nobody surprises the other.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 41
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:28:50 +0200
> > This goes without saying, not only for melee combat but for sniping
> >and many other kinds of combat too. The problem however is that
> >speed is still the most "versatile" way to kill as gives ya an all-
> >around advantage compared to pure skills. Thats why munchkins always
> >go for the speedy look instead of the skilled type of character.
>
> That's only natural: after your first firefight in SR you start thinking
> about upgrading your initiative, because most people are smart enough to
> notice that slowÞad in SR, at least in straight-out firefights where
> nobody surprises the other.

I'd like to think that initiative is not everything, sure an initiative
of 33 gives you one heck of an advantage, but there are many other equally
effective and more imaginative ways to kill that dont leads to exceptionally
boring characters.
I mean I dont have anythign against a speed samurai, the idea is quite
cool, but I feel that players should try out other stuff too. Speed is
good - its not EVERYTHING.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 42
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 05:34:14 -0700
Could you post some alternatives to "Speed=Everything"? Speed and
reaction and not-being-surprised pretty much -are- everything in
just about every combat I've seen. The only things I've found that
can help to even the odds are: Vehicle Armor, and Being a Regenerating
Paranormal. Not everyone is a vampire, and not everyone can drag
that Westwind into a corp building. Any suggestions for us slow
types? (Esp. mundane types that can't toss up a Barrier; I'm thinking
specifically of Deckers and Riggers that aren't decking and rigging
and usually thus fall into the category of "easy target" for wired-3
sammie grunts)

-E (when will I learn.... NEVER GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE!)
Message no. 43
From: Sebastian Wiers <seb@***.RIPCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:07:04 -0500
>
> Could you post some alternatives to "Speed=Everything"? Speed and
> reaction and not-being-surprised pretty much -are- everything in
> just about every combat I've seen. The only things I've found that
> can help to even the odds are: Vehicle Armor, and Being a Regenerating
> Paranormal. Not everyone is a vampire, and not everyone can drag
> that Westwind into a corp building. Any suggestions for us slow
> types? (Esp. mundane types that can't toss up a Barrier; I'm thinking
> specifically of Deckers and Riggers that aren't decking and rigging
> and usually thus fall into the category of "easy target" for wired-3
> sammie grunts)
>
> -E (when will I learn.... NEVER GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE!)
>
Message no. 44
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:47:36 GMT
Eve Forward writes

> Could you post some alternatives to "Speed=Everything"? Speed and
> reaction and not-being-surprised pretty much -are- everything in
> just about every combat I've seen.
well several folks got there before me but comments comming up.

> The only things I've found that
> can help to even the odds are: Vehicle Armor, and Being a Regenerating
> Paranormal. Not everyone is a vampire, and not everyone can drag
> that Westwind into a corp building. Any suggestions for us slow
> types?
how about.
Ambushes, delayed actions have been covered. but

you can always throw an IPE stun grenade round the corner before you
go (16M before overpressure, night folks1), but it is noisey. You
could try poking periscopes round corners to find out whats there.

> (Esp. mundane types that can't toss up a Barrier; I'm thinking
> specifically of Deckers and Riggers that aren't decking and rigging
> and usually thus fall into the category of "easy target" for wired-3
> sammie grunts)

Assuming your GM allows it you can put things like synaptic
accelerators in otherwise slow characters, but you won't catch wired
3 that way. Magicians with a couple of spell locks (reac and reflexes
+ 3D6) can easily go that fast but unless you want accidents
involving grounding fireballs get initiated and mask them.

Your best bet is stealth, probably why i rate 'Masking' as probably
the hardest power in SR, the ability to wander in as an unarmed
mundane and suddenly start dropping manabolts, barrier spells and
fireballs, let alone the initative form masked spell locks!!, hard!!
Its fairly simple if you 'creep round corner and open fire' initatve
should not come in, note that 'fof' cover partial cover up to +6 for
head/weapon exposed, wear appropriate camoflague (same book) for +4
to spot and add improved invis and is he going to spot you NO! [base
4, +6 cover +4 camo, +6 (3 success invis) = 20 yeah right!] ok the
mage with asral up will but get yours to spot incoming, combine
defenses, bounce!, (same +6 cover) now shoot the git with APDS (yes
its expensive but 3 rounds = no mage probably).

>
> -E (when will I learn.... NEVER GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE!)
>
When you fly a micro skimmer with 4Kg of C12 round the corner, add a
few smoke genades and stun grenades, at about 3K each inc load thats
IPE stun for light stuff, smoke for cover and 24D self destruct! [you
may have to use C4, as the availability of C12 can get rather low!, i
for one am very causious with the stuff]

Mark
Message no. 45
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:22:08 +0200
> I mean I dont have anythign against a speed samurai, the idea is quite
>cool, but I feel that players should try out other stuff too. Speed is
>good - its not EVERYTHING.

The speed samurai was a joke-archetype, plain and simple. It got started by
Martin and me saying to each other "How high _can_ you get the initiative of
a starting character anyway? Let's start with a million and see how high we
can go..." Then added in the "speed is everything" attitude and hey presto,
a char who might be interesting to play for once but definitely not forever :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
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Message no. 46
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:31:47 +0200
> > I mean I dont have anythign against a speed samurai, the idea is quite
> >cool, but I feel that players should try out other stuff too. Speed is
> >good - its not EVERYTHING.
>
> The speed samurai was a joke-archetype, plain and simple. It got started by
> Martin and me saying to each other "How high _can_ you get the initiative of
> a starting character anyway? Let's start with a million and see how high we
> can go..." Then added in the "speed is everything" attitude and hey
presto,
> a char who might be interesting to play for once but definitely not forever :)

I realise this sounds a bit bitter, but its a pet grudge I have so please
bear with me :) I realise that you meant it as a joke (kinda like my Mr.
Indestructible) but most of the people out there (at least the ones I know)
want to play exactly this char when they say they want to play a sammie.

I actually managed to convince someone once not to play a speed oriented
character by telling him that I knew just what char he wanted to play, he
got curious and I showed him your design and explained to him that this
is the most muchkined out character possible (speedwise). This kinda shocked
him and he plays riggers since that day. (Hi Nick :)

Anyway Eve's responce to my original post is the generic respoce I
get from my players when I tell then that speed is not everything
and that there are other ways to design a char.

Marc's (and all the other) post was excellent so I dont want to go
into tactics. I'd rather talk about a players goals during char gen.
A player could go for a stealth/assasin kinda guy, a sniper would be
the best example. A player could also go for a "size" kinda guy
you know a character with much body (plus ware) that enables him to
shrug off damage a lot easier. Then there are the weird combinations
one can do with all the sorts of magical adepts. Cybered sorcerer,
Cybered conjurer, or how about a dwarven earth elemental adept w/ or
w/out cyber. You can make a PA with a focus on social skills - like
the one we designed to resemble Simon Gruber :) or maybe a cybered
troll bear shaman (like the one in nosferatu) that realised a bit
late that he is a shaman after all. One could also pretty easily
sort off "convert" a comic figure, that is base a character on
a popular film/comic/tc character.

I could go on like this for ages, the SR system is the most versatile
and the most flexible (especially) when it comes to character generation.
The amazing background makes it possible to create almost any character,
so I really dont see why someone should play that speed-sam over and over
and over again.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 47
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 02:45:27 GMT
Eve Forward writes:
> Could you post some alternatives to "Speed=Everything"? Speed and
> reaction and not-being-surprised pretty much -are- everything in
> just about every combat I've seen.... Any suggestions for us slow
> types? (Esp. mundane types that can't toss up a Barrier; I'm thinking
> specifically of Deckers and Riggers that aren't decking and rigging
> and usually thus fall into the category of "easy target" for wired-3
> sammie grunts)

Drop prone (Free Action) at the first shot. Unless you're close enough
to look down onto the prone person, it makes you very hard to hit
(say +4s minimum) and in any case the samurai who are shooting back will
draw the most fire. Trust your team-mates not to abandon you :)

For the extreme, have blood-bags in your jacket (warn your teammates!)
Shots fired, you fall down bleeding. Target neutralised and the Bad Guys
shoot at someone else.

Your options are limited, if you *have* to be there. Don't walk point or
trail, stay alert, and avoid the temptation to shoot back unless you're
really good at it.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 48
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Geasa and physical adepts?
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:10:44 +0200
> I realise this sounds a bit bitter, but its a pet grudge I have so please
>bear with me :) I realise that you meant it as a joke (kinda like my Mr.
>Indestructible) but most of the people out there (at least the ones I know)
>want to play exactly this char when they say they want to play a sammie.

I would want to play him sometime, but then as written. You know, the
"I'mfasterthanyouareandyou'dbetterlearntolivewithit,chummer" attitude and
speech :)

> I actually managed to convince someone once not to play a speed oriented
>character by telling him that I knew just what char he wanted to play, he
>got curious and I showed him your design and explained to him that this
>is the most muchkined out character possible (speedwise). This kinda shocked
>him and he plays riggers since that day. (Hi Nick :)

And he's not having much luck with them either, going by recent posts :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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