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From:	Hunter griffinhq@****.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 05:44:21 -0400

Message no. 1 I was flipping through MitS this morning and I came across the rules for
Geasa and Initiation again.
p. 58 Shedding Geasa
"Each time a character undergoes intiation (increases his grade), he can
get rid of a geas. (p. 33) If the character sheds a geas, he does not
gain a new Magic Point for that grade but elimates a geas on one of his
existing Magic Points (in other words, the character regains the Magic
Point the geas was offsetting). A character can shed only one geas per
grade."

My question is this: If a magician only gains one Magic Point by
initiating to shed a geas, then why wouldn't you just ignore geas all
together and simply just initiate to gain a metamagic technique? In both
cases, you get a Magic Point. It makes use of geasa actually make the
magician weaker in the long run.

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From:	Bruce gyro@********.co.za
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:04:56 +0200

Message no. 2 -----Original Message-----
From: Hunter <griffinhq@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 19 August 1999 11:43
Subject: Geasa, who needs 'em?

> I was flipping through MitS this morning and I came across the rules
for
>Geasa and Initiation again.
> p. 58 Shedding Geasa
> "Each time a character undergoes intiation (increases his grade), he
can
>get rid of a geas. (p. 33) If the character sheds a geas, he does
not
>gain a new Magic Point for that grade but elimates a geas on one of
his
>existing Magic Points (in other words, the character regains the
Magic
>Point the geas was offsetting). A character can shed only one geas
per
>grade."
>
> My question is this: If a magician only gains one Magic Point by
>initiating to shed a geas, then why wouldn't you just ignore geas all
>together and simply just initiate to gain a metamagic technique? In
both
>cases, you get a Magic Point. It makes use of geasa actually make
the
>magician weaker in the long run.

The reason geasa are taken is to offset Magic loss.
That kinda speaks for itself, really.

Should your mage PC loses Magic by getting a Smartlink for example he
could offset that loss by only having his character be able to use
full power magic at night for example.

When he next initiates he can remove that limitation and be a full
time ass kicker with a smartgun link

Easy

From:	Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:54:34 -0300

Message no. 3 "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Hunter."
] I was flipping through MitS this morning and I came across the rules for
] Geasa and Initiation again.
] p. 58 Shedding Geasa
] "Each time a character undergoes intiation (increases his grade), he can
] get rid of a geas. (p. 33) If the character sheds a geas, he does not
] gain a new Magic Point for that grade but elimates a geas on one of his
] existing Magic Points (in other words, the character regains the Magic
] Point the geas was offsetting). A character can shed only one geas per
] grade."
]
] My question is this: If a magician only gains one Magic Point by
] initiating to shed a geas, then why wouldn't you just ignore geas all
] together and simply just initiate to gain a metamagic technique? In both
] cases, you get a Magic Point. It makes use of geasa actually make the
] magician weaker in the long run.

That's kinda the point. The geasa is the quick fix, for those who
want to operate at full strength until their next initiation, when they
can get rid of it. Going without the geasa means that yes, you can get
your metamagical technique later, but you'll be less powerful in the
meantime. It's a trade-off.

-------------------------------------------
PLEASE WATCH YOUR STEP
NICK UNDER CONSTRUCTION

From:	Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@********.warande.uu.nl
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:08:56 +0200

Message no. 4 > That's kinda the point. The geasa is the quick fix, for those who
>want to operate at full strength until their next initiation, when they
>can get rid of it. Going without the geasa means that yes, you can get
>your metamagical technique later, but you'll be less powerful in the
>meantime. It's a trade-off.

Or, at your initiation, you _keep_ the geas, get still _another_ magic
point _and_ the metatechnique. At one point, the geas(a) will be so
annoying, you'll decide to get rid of them. And that's why they give you
the possibility to do so. But taking one, will give you an extra magicpoint
before, and possibly (if you keep it) also after the initiation.

VrGr David

"We're but fools of our fate, on this earth I shall wait by the roots of my
soul."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")

From:	Twist0059@*.com Twist0059@*.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:04:18 EDT

Message no. 5 In a message dated 8/19/99 7:58:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
iscottw@*****.nb.ca writes:

> That's kinda the point. The geasa is the quick fix, for those who
> want to operate at full strength until their next initiation, when they
> can get rid of it. Going without the geasa means that yes, you can get
> your metamagical technique later, but you'll be less powerful in the
> meantime. It's a trade-off.

It's also important to note that magic groups look badly upon magicians who
start down the path of the burnout by not taking Geasa on his lost magic
points.

-Twist

From:	Lars Ericson lericson@****.edu
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:04:23 -0500

Message no. 6 Hunter wrote:

> My question is this: If a magician only gains one Magic Point by
> initiating to shed a geas, then why wouldn't you just ignore geas all
> together and simply just initiate to gain a metamagic technique? In both
> cases, you get a Magic Point. It makes use of geasa actually make the
> magician weaker in the long run.

The main reason is that geasa are limitations that make casting magic
more difficult or more noticable. For example, there's a definite
advantage to not having to gesture to cast a spell. Some who gestures
would not be able to carry a two-handed weapon at the same time (e.g.
assault rifle, combat axe, etc...). Metamagical techniques are cool, but
it isn't as black and white when it comes to geasa removal vs. metamagic
techniques.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

"Whatever happened to crazy?"
-- Chris Rock

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:14:26 EDT

Message no. 7 In a message dated 8/19/1999 5:07:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gyro@********.co.za writes:

> The reason geasa are taken is to offset Magic loss.
> That kinda speaks for itself, really.

Bruce, think about Hunter's statements again. If the magician sheds the
Geasa, then they have the functional use of the "lost" magic attribute
point(s) again. However, if you go up in Initiation, you also gain a magic
point in any case if you don't shed the Geasa.

> Should your mage PC loses Magic by getting a Smartlink for example he
> could offset that loss by only having his character be able to use
> full power magic at night for example.

I think that much is understood.

> When he next initiates he can remove that limitation and be a full
> time ass kicker with a smartgun link

-K

From:	Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:44:26 -0500

Message no. 8 ----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter <griffinhq@****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 4:44 AM
Subject: Geasa, who needs 'em?

> I was flipping through MitS this morning and I came across the rules
for
> Geasa and Initiation again.
> p. 58 Shedding Geasa
> "Each time a character undergoes intiation (increases his grade), he
can
> get rid of a geas. (p. 33) If the character sheds a geas, he does
not
> gain a new Magic Point for that grade but elimates a geas on one of
his
> existing Magic Points (in other words, the character regains the Magic
> Point the geas was offsetting). A character can shed only one geas
per
> grade."
>
> My question is this: If a magician only gains one Magic Point by
> initiating to shed a geas, then why wouldn't you just ignore geas all
> together and simply just initiate to gain a metamagic technique? In
both
> cases, you get a Magic Point. It makes use of geasa actually make the
> magician weaker in the long run.
>
Hi,
Although you are correct that it would seem better to ignore the
geas and take the point and a technique, it is only better if you have
lost a single point due to magic. Each point you "restore" with a gease
means another gease you must follow. Break one and you loose ALL magic
"restored" by taking gease. Take a smartlink, get a gease, initiate,
take the point and technique, loose a point of magic to a deadly wound,
take another gease, break either and your down 2 magic points.

Mockingbird
--who hopes that makes sense to anyone else

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:08:50 EDT

Message no. 9 In a message dated 8/19/99 5:45:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
griffinhq@****.com writes:

> I was flipping through MitS this morning and I came across the rules for
> Geasa and Initiation again.
> p. 58 Shedding Geasa
> "Each time a character undergoes intiation (increases his grade), he can
> get rid of a geas. (p. 33) If the character sheds a geas, he does not
> gain a new Magic Point for that grade but elimates a geas on one of his
> existing Magic Points (in other words, the character regains the Magic
> Point the geas was offsetting). A character can shed only one geas per
> grade."
>
> My question is this: If a magician only gains one Magic Point by
> initiating to shed a geas, then why wouldn't you just ignore geas all
> together and simply just initiate to gain a metamagic technique? In both
> cases, you get a Magic Point. It makes use of geasa actually make the
> magician weaker in the long run.
>

Note sure if this is what you meant;
Mage(with magic and ess-6) gets cyberhand ("hey, the chicks dig it") takes
geasa to cover magic loss.
Initiates, he can either remove the geasa (still being magic 6, no
metatalent) or he can take the magic point, and the metatalent, then drop the
geasa (ignoring it) and still be at 6/
Problem being you cannot initiate once you ignore the Geasa. You can only
shed it by initiating.

Or, you might have meant;
If you can regain magic with initiating, why take a geasa?
basically, to have the magic point until such time as you initiate :-)

If you meant something else <shrug> not sure

From:	Daniel McManus mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:20:45 -0400

Message no. 10 At 05:44 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Hunter wrote:
<<snip info on initiation>>

> My question is this: If a magician only gains one Magic Point by
>initiating to shed a geas, then why wouldn't you just ignore geas all
>together and simply just initiate to gain a metamagic technique? In both
>cases, you get a Magic Point. It makes use of geasa actually make the
>magician weaker in the long run.

I see your point. But...there are some considerations...

OK. So you have a magician and you say, screw getting geasa's (i know
that's not the plural form of it but I can't recall what the plural
is...geasi?...anyway...). You decide that you'll just keep taking the
magic point increase and that way you also get the metamagic techniques
that you mentioned.
OK, you Initiate 3 times. Get your Magic Attribute up to 9, get three
metamagic skills. You suffer a deadly wound and you're going to drop a
Magic point...you decide, take a geasa to prevent magic loss?...nah! why
bother, you'll take the drop in one point bring you back down to 8 and
you'll just wait to initiate again because you'll go up to 9 again and get
to pick another metamagic skill.
Well in the meantime...what about the Force 9 spell you learned...now it's
gonna be Physical Drain. And I'm not sure about this...I didn't see it
listed in the book anywhere but I just glanced through...but does the loss
affect the last metamagic skill you learned?? If so losing one of those
makes the whole thing moot since you'd only lose one to gain one instead of
lose none to gain none.
And that's not too bad because you had already gained some initiation...but
what about the guy who gets the deadly wound on his first run (poor guy)
and is going to lose that Magic Attribute point. Drop it down to 5 making
3 of his 5 spell Physical Drain (if cast at highest force of course). And
also lose a point of his spell pool as well (not always the case but 1 out
of 3 times). You'd tell him to suffer through it and just wait till
initiation to get back to Magic Attribute 6 so he can get to pick a
metamagic skill...I'd say better to keep the edge so you can make sure to
survive first.
And then there are Adepts...when they lose a magic point they lose the
Adept skills with it...that'd be a damn shame to have to give up those
Increased Reflexes that you got after Initiating twice!

So at one hand you lose a little to gain a little more...on the other you
just don't lose anything. Depends on the situation but I'd generally go
with geasa myself...I don't want to lose those magic attributes I've works
hard on gaining. And this is totally just based on the numbers. What
about the Roleplaying aspect...the way of the burnout is a real threat to
mages and geasa is the way to counter that. If you have a mage who can
flippantly cast lose magic attributes for a bigger payoff at the end...well
sounds like you're on the path of the burned out mage...

--00DNA
"...connection terminated."

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:22:38 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 11 > > That's kinda the point. The geasa is the quick fix, for those
who want to operate at full strength until their next initiation, when
they can get rid of it. Going without the geasa means that yes, you
can get your metamagical technique later, but you'll be less powerful
in the meantime. It's a trade-off.
>
> It's also important to note that magic groups look badly upon
magicians who start down the path of the burnout by not taking Geasa on
his lost magic points.
> -Twist

No!

You're generalising, Twist.

SOME magical groups look down on such potential burnouts. Some don't.
It all depends on how the GM decides they view the subject.

Personally, I'd look down more on mages who limited their abilities in
order to save their power (by taking Geasa) than ones who toughed it
out.

*Doc' would also look down on mages who refused to bathe while they
were in the middle of an enchanting process...cleanliness is next to initiation...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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From:	Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:12:41 -0400

Message no. 12 >> It's also important to note that magic groups look badly upon
>magicians who start down the path of the burnout by not taking Geasa
on
>his lost magic points.
>> -Twist
>
>No!
>
>You're generalising, Twist.
>
>SOME magical groups look down on such potential burnouts. Some don't.
>It all depends on how the GM decides they view the subject.
>
>Personally, I'd look down more on mages who limited their abilities
in
>order to save their power (by taking Geasa) than ones who toughed it
>out.

I don't know about that, Doc, having the abilities you had before,
even if you have to fumble with talismans, remember incantations, and
all of those silly AD&D things just to fling off a spell that was easy
when you started off, doesn't seem like a cop-out to me in the least.
OK, let's try this one for size.

You're a mage. A combat mage, which means you've given up a bit of
magic to get some keen cyber, but that's OK. An alpha grade link,
something for the eyes, maybe a dampener to quiet those bangs you're
going to hear a lot, and some wiz razors, but that's it. You're no
sammie, but you don't need to be: you're special. One in a million.
For now, losing a bit of magic to survive is nothing, because compared
to the big boys you don't have anything, and you don't know a thing,
and never will until you meet your avatar. You can cast a few Force 5
spells, maybe limit yourself on this biggie Force 7's, but for now,
you're OK. Then you initiate. Considering that a mage's life
literally hinges on his magical ability (because that's what makes him
what he is; it's important enough that he has to give up the most
important priority in game terms, and it will forever define who he is
as a person), initiation, that one step towards more power, is a big
thing.

More and more karma goes into magic and the handling of magic, while
physical training is in a sort of limbo, ignored until you have some
"spare karma" (as if there is such a thing for a mage) to burn on
raising that Strength from a 3 to a 4, but who needs Strength when you
have spells? Who needs to lift a Vindicator machine gun and soak up
all that recoil when you can fling off a Force 8 Fireball and unleash
an army of elementals upon your enemy? Who needs Quickness and speed
when nothing can hope to penetrate your protection spells? Why bother
raising the karma on unimportant physical skills when you can simply
pop a lock (or a sustaining foci)? The world the mundanes see is "a
world," but not The World as the mage knows it. Mundane can have
their meat, deckers can have their Matrix, but only the truly Awakened
can join the true world (deckers and mages think a lot alike, when you
think about it). Sure, adepts and groggies can see it, but that's
like the difference between simply looking at Heaven and actually
being IN Heaven. Kind of makes you feel sorry for the poor saps,
actually, having to be stuck in those aging bags of flesh and water.
Meat is nothing; mana is everything. Sort of like comparing the world
we live in to what lies behind that world ala The Matrix. That's how
I feel mages see the world, your YMMV.

So now you've initiated a few times, and each time you do, you come
closer and closer to The Truth--the lifeline of everything, the
essence of what is--gaining power every step of the way. Initiation
gets really antsy around the 6th step or so, and it gets riskier too,
because one day, you get shot. And you take damage. And you lose a
magic point (after your 6th or 7th, any time you take a big shot,
there's a 100% chance +/- GM kindness that you WILL lose a point).
You've been lucky so far, dodging bullets, avoiding hits, but an
assault cannon (and the shell that comes out of it) is not one of
those things you can shrug off. So you lose a point, just 1 out of 12
or 13, but which one? The first point or the last? Either way,
you've lost a bit of the magic, and you're gonna have to suck up to
the fact that your magic (no, not your magic. YOU. you weren't fast
enough, weren't good enough, weren't talented enough, you just
couldn't cut it. The magic was always good enough, you just weren't
good enough to handle it, and now you can't handle even that) just
isn't as good as it was before the hit. That's a lot of karma gone to
waste, especially at the higher stages. So what're you going to do?
Tough it out until your next initiation, or go for a quick fix just to
have what you've lost?

The more power we gain, the more we want to cling to that power,
regardless of what it's going to cost us. What kind of power doesn't
matter, but magic is on an entirely different level because not only
is it personal, but it differentiates the mage from your
average-run-of-the-mill mundane. The magic means more to the mage
than anything. It's his life, his lover, his family, his friend, his
tool, his master, his servant, the meaning of life, the life of
meaning, everything, nothing, life, death, here, now, tomorrow,
unknown, and known. The magic's like a drug; once you get ahold of
it, why would you want to let even the smallest part go?

If I was a mage, I'd probably end up taking a geas sooner or later,
but I'd dump it ASAP. It's a fair trade-off, losing a bit of freedom
to regain a lot of power, with the option of dropping those shackles
later on in your life.

-----
AK404

http://freespeech.org/ak404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

* Damn, I'm talkative tonight... *

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:42:44 EDT

Message no. 13 In a message dated 8/20/1999 12:20:30 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> *Doc' would also look down on mages who refused to bathe while they
> were in the middle of an enchanting process...cleanliness is next to
> initiation...*

<K looks at Doc, remembers a t-shirt saying ... "my daddy went to the
metaplanes...and took me with him..." while having Pizza...and bonding some
toys.>

From:	Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject:	Geasa, who needs 'em?
Date:	Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:24:07 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 14 > > *Doc' would also look down on mages who refused to bathe while
they were in the middle of an enchanting process...cleanliness is next
to initiation...*
>
> <K looks at Doc, remembers a t-shirt saying ... "my daddy went to the
metaplanes...and took me with him..." while having Pizza...and bonding
some toys.>

Hey, you know I'll do anything for kids. And that bonding didn't take
long enough to require a bath. :)
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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