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Message no. 1
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Gems, part 2
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:00:06 -0700
How come Flah is a human on the cover of SR3, and an elf on page 19?

Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?

The team's mage died tonight. In his sleep. (Well, that's what the team
believes.)

--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com
TSA Team Builder! - The Shadowrun Archive - New location soon(ish)!
Herkimer's Lair (framed) - http://coastnet.com/~dvixen
(Comments welcomed, flames dropped into the abyss.)
Message no. 2
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:30:11 -0500
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998 21:00:06 -0700 Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM> writes:
>How come Flah is a human on the cover of SR3, and an elf on page 19?

Cosmetic Surgery?

>Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?

Since a Tooth Compartment (Cybertechnology, page 26) costs no Essence,
I'd say yes as along as there is no cybernetic interface with whatever's
implanted.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

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Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:35:15 +0200
According to Dvixen, at 21:00 on 23 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> How come Flah is a human on the cover of SR3, and an elf on page 19?

There's no picture of a human or elf on the cover of my SR3 book... ;)

> Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?

If they're hollow, it may be possible. If they're not, then it'd cost
Essence. Since SR doesn't say anything about this, I'd assume they're not
hollow.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:45:28 -0700
> Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?

If they're hollow, it may be possible. If they're not, then it'd cost
Essence. Since SR doesn't say anything about this, I'd assume they're not
hollow.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In ED, a trolls horns are living, and filled with marrow, or whatever
fills living horns. If cut off, they will not re-grow. In any case, that
makes them bacially part of the living bone of the skull, so you could put
a "horn tip compartment" in, but it would be like a fingertip compartment,
and cost essence.
Now, if the troll had a cyberskull, the horns might be a good place
for "limb adapted accessories", as were discussed a few threads back.

Mongoose
Message no. 5
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:21:28 -0400
On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, Dvixen wrote:

->How come Flah is a human on the cover of SR3, and an elf on page 19?

Is it said anywhere in the story that she's either? Probably just
a artist's error or an editor's oversight.

->Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?

As a GM? As long as it didn't have any form of direct control
from the troll himself (Direct neural Interface), I'd actually say yes.

->The team's mage died tonight. In his sleep. (Well, that's what the team
->believes.)

Please tell me they didn't bury him while he was away on an astral
quest..... ];-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 6
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:40:27 -0400
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Gurth wrote:

->> How come Flah is a human on the cover of SR3, and an elf on page 19?
->
->There's no picture of a human or elf on the cover of my SR3 book... ;)

That's because you have a BABY and not a BBB3... but, of course,
you knew that... ]:-P

->> Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?
->
->If they're hollow, it may be possible. If they're not, then it'd cost
->Essence. Since SR doesn't say anything about this, I'd assume they're
->not hollow.

I'll disagree here on the bounds that chopping off a leg or an arm
doesn't cost essence. It's the interaction of machine and mind/body that
causes essence loss. (although I'm not trying to start a thread on what
essence is, I'm sure it'll be more detailed in MaM.) Tooth compatments
don't cause essence, so a horn compartment shouldn't cost any either,
since it doesn't interact with the mind/body in any way other than
chopping some out.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 7
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:28:20 EDT
In a message dated 9/24/1998 4:40:07 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> According to Dvixen, at 21:00 on 23 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
> > Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?
>
> If they're hollow, it may be possible. If they're not, then it'd cost
> Essence. Since SR doesn't say anything about this, I'd assume they're not
> hollow.

The more I think about this one, the more I keep coming back to the
centralized theme of "it's cosmetic", the nodules anyway. I don't know why I
keep thinking of this. The nodules are mentioned and even defined in one of
the SR editions, making them into dermite deposits along the surface of the
skin, but then the speaker/narrator makes some relation to them being like a
Rhino's horn (which is really densely packed hair).

At that point, the arguments of Keratin come back to me as well. Keratin,
IIRC, is one of the building blocks for hair and fingernails. We tend to call
our fingernails "bone", but in fact, it's not *quite* the same as the bones in
our body.

Putting something into the nodules on a troll would be neat idea, BUT I think
with the way the nodules are supposedly NOT consistent. That they are
different for each Troll in question, that making up any kind of ruling for
this would best be left to a GM's call. Another thought however might be
create something that appears like a nodule, may even be biocrafted to appear
like one (creating an empty shell vs. a solid filled one), and then put some
neat toy into the shell, like a communications unit, or a micronized cyber/RC
deck, etc...

If biocrafted / bionetic development can create everything else that is in the
SR universe, coming up with this would be just as easily performed, AND it
would / could even appear to have the same living aura as the person to whom
it is attached *if* it were crafted from the person's own cellular structure
(clonal tech). Gosh Dvix, suddenly a neat idea comes hopping along....

-K
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:29:40 +0200
According to Fixer, at 10:40 on 24 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> ->There's no picture of a human or elf on the cover of my SR3 book... ;)
>
> That's because you have a BABY and not a BBB3... but, of course,
> you knew that... ]:-P

To tell the truth, I was completely unaware of the fact that I bought a
special edition book. I only stood in line for a few hours to get it, and
the line "This collector's edition of Shadowrun is a limited printing of
1000 copes" also doesn't hint at it being different than normal SR3
books...

(For the humor-impaired, the above is a joke :)

> ->> Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?
> ->
> ->If they're hollow, it may be possible. If they're not, then it'd cost
> ->Essence. Since SR doesn't say anything about this, I'd assume they're
> ->not hollow.
>
> I'll disagree here on the bounds that chopping off a leg or an arm
> doesn't cost essence. It's the interaction of machine and mind/body that
> causes essence loss. (although I'm not trying to start a thread on what
> essence is, I'm sure it'll be more detailed in MaM.) Tooth compatments
> don't cause essence, so a horn compartment shouldn't cost any either,
> since it doesn't interact with the mind/body in any way other than
> chopping some out.

That can be argued about. Tooth compartments might not cost Essence
because they're so small, not because they don't really interact with the
body. Fingertip compartments, for example, are somewhat bigger than a
tooth and cost 0.1 Essence, yet they have much the same function as tooth
compartments.

Also, what I said is that if troll horns are hollow, I figure you could
install some cyber in it without losing Essence; while if the horns are
_not_ hollow, implanting something in them will cost Essence because
living tissue has to be removed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:23:27 -0600
While doing the Fandango, Dvixen wrote:
/
/ The team's mage died tonight. In his sleep. (Well, that's what the team
/ believes.)

Here's a tip to all mages. Before you go astral, let someone know :)

OoOoh. EMG idea. The bad guy clones a team member (it's a non-viable
clone, but that doesn't matter). The bad guy captures the team member
while their sleeping (gasses them). The bad guy puts the clone in the
PC's bed, and affixiates the clone with carbon dioxide (a pretty
traceless way to kill someone). The bad guy then has all the time in
the world to have his way with the PC (whatever the his evil plan may
be), until the other team members clue in somehow and start the
adventure.

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:20:04 +0800
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:40:27 -0400, Fixer wrote:

> I'll disagree here on the bounds that chopping off a leg or an arm
>doesn't cost essence. It's the interaction of machine and mind/body that
>causes essence loss. (although I'm not trying to start a thread on what
>essence is, I'm sure it'll be more detailed in MaM.) Tooth compatments
>don't cause essence, so a horn compartment shouldn't cost any either,
>since it doesn't interact with the mind/body in any way other than
>chopping some out.


It can for mages. Check out the piece on deadly wounds.
Message no. 11
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:36:02 -0400
> Also, what I said is that if troll horns are hollow, I figure you
> could
> install some cyber in it without losing Essence; while if the horns
> are
> _not_ hollow, implanting something in them will cost Essence because
> living tissue has to be removed.
>
It also depends on the type of horn. Some animals horns
(most I think) are dead tissue, just like hair (in fact the rhino's
horn IS hair). In this case I think you could do whatever you wanted to
it and not worry. You'd lose no more essence than you do when you get a
haircut.
Of course putting anything in it that is sensory or
hooks into other cyber is still gonna cost essence since they have to
cut meat to put in the interface equipment. I'd give it a lower cost.
Much akin to the smartgun link in a cyber arm, it costs less since you
already lost the arm, but still costs since it's getting wired to your
brain.
Message no. 12
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:28:56 -0500
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:40:27 -0400 Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
writes:
>On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Gurth wrote:
<SNIP>
>->> Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?

>->If they're hollow, it may be possible. If they're not, then it'd cost
>->Essence. Since SR doesn't say anything about this, I'd assume they're
>->not hollow.

> I'll disagree here on the bounds that chopping off a leg or an
arm
>doesn't cost essence. It's the interaction of machine and mind/body
that
>causes essence loss. (although I'm not trying to start a thread on what
>essence is, I'm sure it'll be more detailed in MaM.) Tooth compatments
>don't cause essence, so a horn compartment shouldn't cost any either,
>since it doesn't interact with the mind/body in any way other than
>chopping some out.

Counterpoint: Peg legs and hook hands (Cybertechnology) cost Essence.
Doesn't this contradict your argument?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 13
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:43:54 EDT
In a message dated 9/24/98 1:32:19 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> > ->> Can cyberware be put inside a troll's horn without essence loss?
> > ->
> > ->If they're hollow, it may be possible. If they're not, then it'd cost
> > ->Essence. Since SR doesn't say anything about this, I'd assume they're
> > ->not hollow.
> >

Perhaps, with GM allowance, the cyberware implanted into the nodule would gain
an additional essence cost reduction for certain types of cyberware, similar
to the effects of cyberlimbs and the cyberskull. And, IMO, perhaps no more
than 10% tops.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:59:52 +0200
According to Oliver McDonald, at 13:20 on 24 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> > I'll disagree here on the bounds that chopping off a leg or an arm
> >doesn't cost essence.
>
> It can for mages. Check out the piece on deadly wounds.

Magicians can lose Magic, not Essence, through Deadly wounds. That's an
important difference, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:10:10 -0400
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

->Counterpoint: Peg legs and hook hands (Cybertechnology) cost Essence.
->Doesn't this contradict your argument?

Wait, you mean strapping a peg-leg to your stumpy leg, or a hook
to your stumpy arm costs essence? Please give me a page number, this
makes very little sense. For crying out loud, not even a cortex bomb
costs essence and that's a surgical procedure.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 16
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:42:46 -0500
On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:10:10 -0400 Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
writes:
>On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:
>->Counterpoint: Peg legs and hook hands (Cybertechnology) cost Essence.
>->Doesn't this contradict your argument?
>
> Wait, you mean strapping a peg-leg to your stumpy leg, or a hook
>to your stumpy arm costs essence? Please give me a page number, this
>makes very little sense. For crying out loud, not even a cortex bomb
>costs essence and that's a surgical procedure.

Ooops ... That's in Cyberpirates, not Cybertech ... page 174-175

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy." --(Can
anyone place the source?)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 17
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 16:14:31 -0700
:>->Counterpoint: Peg legs and hook hands (Cybertechnology) cost Essence.
:>->Doesn't this contradict your argument?
:>
:> Wait, you mean strapping a peg-leg to your stumpy leg, or a hook
:>to your stumpy arm costs essence? Please give me a page number, this
:>makes very little sense. For crying out loud, not even a cortex bomb
:>costs essence and that's a surgical procedure.
:
:Ooops ... That's in Cyberpirates, not Cybertech ... page 174-175


And, in answer to the essence question, they anchor into the bone
(although I believe the "limb" is removal, the anchor is solid) and can be
used as a weapon. They are not just wearable prosthesis. If they did NOT
cost essence, you would also have to wonder why non-retractile implant
blade weapons do.
Perhaps, on a metaphysical level, having an implanted peg leg changes
the self image more Th just limb loss, and in a different way, and thus
stresses the link to the "astral template". The essence loss is quite
small- .1, I think.

Mongoose
Message no. 18
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Gems, part 2
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:14:07 -0700
> Perhaps, on a metaphysical level, having an implanted peg leg
> changes
> the self image more Th just limb loss, and in a different way, and
> thus
> stresses the link to the "astral template". The essence loss is quite
> small- .1, I think.
>
I like your theory there...but I tend to think that the essense loss is
more because of the link with the cybertech...not just because it's in
your body.

-=Toffer=-

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Gems, part 2, you may also be interested in:

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