Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Aeriochrome R aeriochrome@****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:09:00 -0500
Alrighty, I picked it up yesterday, but I haven't read it from cover to
cover yet. I do have to say that the Ares Icarus Space Platform Pass that
they gave me when I bought the book is kinda cool (I'll have to look for
my Doc Wagon card from years ago).

Anyway onto the book.
I'll give you the chapter headings and any impressions I have from
reading parts of those chapters (I haven't read them all yet).
Chapter 1 The Matrix World- Talks about the prevalence of the Matrix and
it's role is SR society. Its pretty helpfull as background information.
Chapter 2 - The Computer Interface- It seems to be about jacking in,
types of ASIST interfaces, the Persona, and connection speeds.
Chapter 3 - The Matrix User - Attributes and skills and dice pools, new
edges and flaws and SOTA.
Chapter 4 - Accessing the Matrix. Jackpoints, Matrix services and
providers, "Decking and Unauthorized Access," and visibility and
perception.
Chapter 5 - Grids and Hosts -
Chapter 6 - Cyberterminal Construction - rules for building and modifing
decks
Chapter 7 - Utilities - Supposedly there are new utilities, but I haven't
read the chapter.
Chapter 8 - Programming
Chapter 9 - System Operations - including "Advanced SR3 Operations
Descriptions"
Chapter 10 - Intrusion Countermeasures
Chapter 11 - Matrix Security - security sheaves, security tallies, etc.
Chapter 12 System Tricks - Old standbys such as vanishing nodes, but
talks about tracing comcalls, and deckers programming on the fly during a
run or even in combat.
Chapter 13 - Information Searches - Detailed rules on that old stanby the
Matrix search. This chapter will be used by anyone who has to deal with
matrix searches. Looks good and has rules on matrix contacts, types of
databases, and seems to give rough example as to what kinds of data can
be dug up during a search.
Chapter 14 - The Otaku (17 pages out of the book's 171 total pages)-
rules for creating and playing Otaku PC's, and detailed rules about their
abilities, tribes, and an Otaku initiation type procedure.
Chapter 15 - Autonomous Programs - SK's and AI's rules on designing, and
running.
Chapter 16 - Matrix Players- similar to the Players sections from their
other current sourcebooks. The who's who of the Matrix world, legal,
illegal, and the services they can provide.
Then the last 11 pages are tables.

I generally don't use Deckers in my games, but this books seems to be
usefull as a resource. Even if all of the sections on building decks,
programs, utilities, and security sheaths are the same as from VR2 (and I
haven't read those chapters to find out) I feel that this book is going
to be usefull for the information as to how the Matrix interacts with the
world and for the chapter on Matrix searches. Every run someone attempts
to search for data, this will give a better understanding as to how that
process works and the information that is available to be found.

Anyway, I hope that at least gives a alright account of the new book.
Aeriochrome
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 2
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:31:12 -0400
Being such a kind and generous soul;
On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:09:00 -0500 Aeriochrome R <aeriochrome@****.com>
writes:
> Alrighty, I picked it up yesterday, but I haven't read it from cover
> to
> cover yet. I do have to say that the Ares Icarus Space Platform Pass
> that
> they gave me when I bought the book is kinda cool (I'll have to look
> for
> my Doc Wagon card from years ago).
>

This of course being because Year of the Comet was supposed to be the
GenCon book, and Event :-)

I hope someone remembers to get me one, but I know they won't.
I AM allowed to kill off PCs if the players don't bring me stuff, right?

Thanks for all the Matrix stuff I snipped, glad its at least OUT, since
I'll be starting a new AOL game soon enough....
If anyone has any info on changes to the otaku (or, especially GNOME
otaku.. :-) I'd like to hear how much of a change it is. Along the lines
of "create your PC from scratch again" or "just change X to Y"

Vocenoctum
<http://members.xoom.com/vocenoctum>;

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 3
From: Jeff Long jalong8@****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:53:48 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: <vocenoctum@****.com>



> This of course being because Year of the Comet was supposed to be the
> GenCon book, and Event :-)
>
> I hope someone remembers to get me one, but I know they won't.
> I AM allowed to kill off PCs if the players don't bring me stuff, right?
>
Only if they live in the same town as you and you actully asked them to get
you one.. :)
Message no. 4
From: Jeff Long jalong8@****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:36:47 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aeriochrome R" <aeriochrome@****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>



> Alrighty, I picked it up yesterday, but I haven't read it from cover to
> cover yet. I do have to say that the Ares Icarus Space Platform Pass that
> they gave me when I bought the book is kinda cool (I'll have to look for
> my Doc Wagon card from years ago).

The green, the gold, or the Platnum one? :)

A note on the Badges though. there are a number of them (I managed to
aquire or see a few myself) what can I say, I like props..

Ares Icarus Space Platform Pass, Ares Daedalus Space Platform Pass, and the
Yamatetsu Shibanokuji Space Platform Party Pass: these are Visitors passes
to the respective stations for the putpose of viewing Halley's comet. They
each have a time limit indicated on each (Yamatetsu's badge proclaming:
"Experience fine dining under the stars and enjoy the best view of Halley's
Comet anywhere.") Tehn there are the Novatech badges..

For the Novatech Camelot Space Research Platform, there are a number of
different versions of this one (I know of four myself) Alpha, Mana, Omega,
Zeta Level clearances.

Alpha allows acess to Astrophysics Lab and the Observation Platform.
Mana allows acess to Magic Lab, and the Observation Platform.
Omega allows access to tthe Astrophysics Lab, the Magic Lab,Zero Gravity
Lab, and the Observation Platform.
Zeta allows access to the Zero Gravity Lab, and the Observation Platform.

One other thing from the Con: As I walked thru the FASA area, I happeded to
notice something written upon the Tournyment board that went something along
the lines of "Recent reports of a corporation having found natural deposits
of Magical metals have raised the stocks of yamatetsu, Renraku, Ares today.
Other corporations are rushing to find thier own sources of naturally
occuring Orichalcum" Or something to that effect. I had forgotten to write
it down so my appologies for the inaccuracies of it.

> Anyway onto the book.
> I'll give you the chapter headings and any impressions I have from
> reading parts of those chapters (I haven't read them all yet).

> Chapter 1 The Matrix World- Talks about the prevalence of the Matrix and
> it's role is SR society. Its pretty helpfull as background information.

The chapter seems to me to have been done in the same way as the Magic in
the Shadows, as far as information in the chapter is concerned.

> Chapter 2 - The Computer Interface- It seems to be about jacking in,
> types of ASIST interfaces, the Persona, and connection speeds.

This Chapter also deals with the effect that using the different methods
have. the methods of accessing the matrix being, Trodes : the electrode net
that you put on your head, it tends to slow you down some, but for those who
don't want to get a datajack like Mages it's probibly the best way to go.
Datajack :both with using items like keyboards, and going pure Direct Nural
interface(ie, only using mental commands)

> Chapter 3 - The Matrix User - Attributes and skills and dice pools, new
> edges and flaws and SOTA.

One of the New Skills is 'System familiarity Knowledge' it covers a number
of subskills that represent different types of System types (such as Data
Archive Familiarity) having such a skill allows the decker to make a test
when he enters such a system, sucesses add to the deckers hacking pool while
in that system to represent his knowledge of that type of systems design and
the ways it can be best exploited by said decker.

Of course the chapter also discusses a nuber of uses for deckers in the game
as well (overwatch, getting stuff though online black markets, etc..)
> Chapter 4 - Accessing the Matrix. Jackpoints, Matrix services and
> providers, "Decking and Unauthorized Access," and visibility and
> perception.

Some of the various type here:
Hardwired: typical types of console, Matrix access, and taps
Wireless Cellular, Laser, Microwave, radio, Sattelite

> Chapter 5 - Grids and Hosts -

UV hosts are tossed in here, as well as paydata. Also within this chapter is
an item that I've been playing around with for years, Archaic Systems. You
know, the stuff where using now that might still be around by 2060. Seems
that even though the crash wiped out alot, it managed to miss a few, or such
systems may have been brought back online afterwards <shrug>.
(One interesting thing about the pre-simsense systems is that Otaku cannot
access such systems at all.)

> Chapter 6 - Cyberterminal Construction - rules for building and modifing
> decks
I havn't had much chance to take a good look here but if I'm not mistaken
(and I may very well be) it would seem that the time to contruct a deck and
programs may have been dropped down some. Someone may want to take a better
look to see if I'm reading this right.
Many new toys are added in the list of things to add to the cyberdeck such
as a battery pack (allows 6 hours of operation without charging or
connecting to the Matrix), Credstick reader, Cameras, Keyboards (apparently
not a starndard cyberdeck option), scanners, and other minor goodies that
probibly won't directly help a decker in the Matrix but can come in useful
non the less.

Salvaging components from other cyberterminal is also covered here. (You
mean the Corp Computer has a better MPCP than mine? <pop>)

> Chapter 7 - Utilities - Supposedly there are new utilities, but I haven't
> read the chapter.

Lots of new utilities like Crash (attempting to crash a running program),
Redecorate (rework a sculpted system-good for spraying virtual graffiti
around :), Battletac Matrix Link, Triangulate (attempts to find someone
using a wireless link), etc..

> Chapter 8 - Programming

They introduce the optional rule: Bugs here, as well as different
programming languages (which is introduced in the Bug rules BTW).
Program options allows for alterations to a programs basic functions.
Command Sets: allows a decker to set up a simple script to have a series of
timed system functions occur.
Smart frames & Agents ( agents being smarter than your basic frame inthat it
can they can make a few descions on thier own)are covered here, as well as.
Also IC Constructs are covered here (take a Smart frame and load it with IC
programs and have it operated by the Host System and you have a IC
Construct)
Worms, or 'reactive virus programs' are next.

> Chapter 9 - System Operations - including "Advanced SR3 Operations
> Descriptions"

note: there's a complete basic listing of operations in the back of the
book.

> Chapter 10 - Intrusion Countermeasures
> Chapter 11 - Matrix Security - security sheaves, security tallies, etc.
> Chapter 12 System Tricks - Old standbys such as vanishing nodes, but
> talks about tracing comcalls, and deckers programming on the fly during a
> run or even in combat.
> Chapter 13 - Information Searches - Detailed rules on that old stanby the
> Matrix search. This chapter will be used by anyone who has to deal with
> matrix searches. Looks good and has rules on matrix contacts, types of
> databases, and seems to give rough example as to what kinds of data can
> be dug up during a search.
> Chapter 14 - The Otaku (17 pages out of the book's 171 total pages)-
> rules for creating and playing Otaku PC's, and detailed rules about their
> abilities, tribes, and an Otaku initiation type procedure.

One thing I ran across is something called the Fading(though I'm not sure if
it appeared before this, Otaku are my weakest point in Shadowrun).
Generally it mentions that since an Otaku's abilities rely upon the
flexability of the young mind that by around age 21 an Otaku begins to loose
thier natural abilities, untill aroung age 30 they become 'normal' (though
by then they've most likely managed to become novahot deckers)

> Chapter 15 - Autonomous Programs - SK's and AI's rules on designing, and
> running.

In it's explanation of AI's, it gives a description of the three AI's and
their Backgrounds, including what Deus is really up to. So take not GM's
especally if you want to keep your players in the dark about athe Archology.

> Chapter 16 - Matrix Players- similar to the Players sections from their
> other current sourcebooks. The who's who of the Matrix world, legal,
> illegal, and the services they can provide.
> Then the last 11 pages are tables.
>
> I generally don't use Deckers in my games, but this books seems to be
> usefull as a resource. Even if all of the sections on building decks,
> programs, utilities, and security sheaths are the same as from VR2 (and I
> haven't read those chapters to find out) I feel that this book is going
> to be usefull for the information as to how the Matrix interacts with the
> world and for the chapter on Matrix searches. Every run someone attempts
> to search for data, this will give a better understanding as to how that
> process works and the information that is available to be found.

Well at least it seems to be easier to understand this version than the last
one.

> Anyway, I hope that at least gives a alright account of the new book.
> Aeriochrome
Message no. 5
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:11:29 -0500
From: "Aeriochrome R" <aeriochrome@****.com>
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions


> Alrighty, I picked it up yesterday, but I haven't read it from cover to
> cover yet. I do have to say that the Ares Icarus Space Platform Pass that
> they gave me when I bought the book is kinda cool (I'll have to look for
> my Doc Wagon card from years ago).

THAT is what I forgot... Rett was going to get me some badges... oh well,
exchanges are coming soon.

> Anyway onto the book.
> I'll give you the chapter headings and any impressions I have from
> reading parts of those chapters (I haven't read them all yet).
> Chapter 1 The Matrix World- Talks about the prevalence of the Matrix and
> it's role is SR society. Its pretty helpfull as background information.

Very Useful.

> Chapter 2 - The Computer Interface- It seems to be about jacking in,
> types of ASIST interfaces, the Persona, and connection speeds.

A bit reviewish for most people IMO.

> Chapter 3 - The Matrix User - Attributes and skills and dice pools, new
> edges and flaws and SOTA.

And some of those flaws are cute..., the expanded information is there as
well.

> Chapter 4 - Accessing the Matrix. Jackpoints, Matrix services and
> providers, "Decking and Unauthorized Access," and visibility and
> perception.

And a few more tricks and traits if you look close enough.

> Chapter 5 - Grids and Hosts -

Considerably more information is upcoming in "Target: Matrix" next month.

> Chapter 6 - Cyberterminal Construction - rules for building and modifing
> decks

And IMO, this is the chapter that still could have used the most help.
There are a LOT of things that I think could have been easier (but I'll quit
whining now).

> Chapter 7 - Utilities - Supposedly there are new utilities, but I haven't
> read the chapter.

<evil grin/maniacal laughter> Yeah, you could say that. Beware and behold,
we will finally all become aware of exactly what that entry in the Man &
Machine book with regards to BattleTAC and Tactical Computer *really* do
mean.

> Chapter 8 - Programming

And there are quite a few more things going on here as well that will help
Utilities help out. We did notice a lot of the "squaring of numbers" was
removed (Ken went through that book while we there and gave me common
updates as we went). I still think personally it takes a bit long, but it
is easier to understand than before.

> Chapter 9 - System Operations - including "Advanced SR3 Operations
> Descriptions"

<more evil grinning and maniacal laughter> This is one to pay close
attention to IMO.

> Chapter 10 - Intrusion Countermeasures

And the rules for programming such....

> Chapter 11 - Matrix Security - security sheaves, security tallies, etc.

Eh... it's there...

> Chapter 12 System Tricks - Old standbys such as vanishing nodes, but
> talks about tracing comcalls, and deckers programming on the fly during a
> run or even in combat.

Some of which is review, but a considerable amount of it is still there.

> Chapter 13 - Information Searches - Detailed rules on that old stanby the
> Matrix search. This chapter will be used by anyone who has to deal with
> matrix searches. Looks good and has rules on matrix contacts, types of
> databases, and seems to give rough example as to what kinds of data can
> be dug up during a search.

THE chapter IMO, and no, I didn't write it... (my couple of contributions to
this book are very minor in volume, but very major in impact for the players
benefit).

> Chapter 14 - The Otaku (17 pages out of the book's 171 total pages)-
> rules for creating and playing Otaku PC's, and detailed rules about their
> abilities, tribes, and an Otaku initiation type procedure.

And again, IMO, the Tribes information could have been chopped or moved to
"Target: Matrix". I really like what is in that chapter though ...
specifically the advancement structure... which is easier to understand than
the Mage's Initiation stuff in MITS (much slimmer formula IMO). No, this
does not mean that an Otaku is "magical", it just means that a given rules
structure that works elsewhere is merely being paralleled here.

> Chapter 15 - Autonomous Programs - SK's and AI's rules on designing, and
> running.

And again, this is interesting and even useful. Makes me much more
personally respectful of SK's.

> Chapter 16 - Matrix Players- similar to the Players sections from their
> other current sourcebooks. The who's who of the Matrix world, legal,
> illegal, and the services they can provide.

VERY useful section. Helps people fill out some things. There will be
considerably more information of this nature in the upcoming "Target:
Matrix".

> Then the last 11 pages are tables.

And pay attention when reading them.

> I generally don't use Deckers in my games, but this books seems to be
> usefull as a resource. Even if all of the sections on building decks,
> programs, utilities, and security sheaths are the same as from VR2 (and I
> haven't read those chapters to find out) I feel that this book is going
> to be usefull for the information as to how the Matrix interacts with the
> world and for the chapter on Matrix searches. Every run someone attempts
> to search for data, this will give a better understanding as to how that
> process works and the information that is available to be found.

I tend to agree here for the most part. I know that a lot of this is
upscaling of information for Matrix stuff... as the usable section/core
information from VR2 was already in the SR3 sourcebook.

> Anyway, I hope that at least gives a alright account of the new book.
> Aeriochrome

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Some)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 6
From: Kenneth Peters tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:06:09 -0400
At 12:11 PM 8/14/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>From: "Aeriochrome R" <aeriochrome@****.com>
>Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
>
>I tend to agree here for the most part. I know that a lot of this is
>upscaling of information for Matrix stuff... as the usable section/core
>information from VR2 was already in the SR3 sourcebook.
>
> > Anyway, I hope that at least gives a alright account of the new book.
> > Aeriochrome

(>)I'm still in New York but I'll do a mini-note in the meantime. I can't
be too objective about it but I'll point out some of the BIG changes
between this book and VR2.
-Task Bonuses: No longer exist. Programming on mainframes reduces the
target numbers but that is it. I asked Rob Boyle and it was removed for
reasons regarding rules exceptions.
-Programming Times. Cut in half. Now its Size In Mpºse time in days.
Merry christmas!
-Frames. You can now "spoof" commands to them and they are FAR more capable
then before. Especially with agents - even the wimpy versions that made it in.
-Otaku. Both better and screwed. The Fading screws long-term players while
the Initiate-level abilities actually makes them usable in the game now.
The freakin' "tribe creation tables" are ultra-lame and should have died a
long terrible death. I'm shooting a flaming arrow at D_E for that! :)
-Satellites. Well, nuff said about that!
-IC. Programming rules! But since the host rules were cut you still can't
use them.
-Jackpoint Bandwidth. No longer technically infinite with assloads of
Retrains. Use lowest of jackpoint or deck I/O. In fact there IS no longer
an Retrain operation! Whoo-hoo!
-Computer Construction time. Blame Mongoose for any problems. Far simpler,
and my friend already has a program for making decks so its no biggy. Decks
are still RIDICULOUSLY overpriced though.
-AIs. Descriptions of most of the AIs. Why they left old Psychotrope out I
dunno.

There are a few ultra-tiny problems I spotted but I haven't seen anything
game-breaking yet. If there are any problems it will likely be in the
information search rules since they have the most modifiers.

I'll post a big review after I get back. In the meantime I hope you all
enjoy the book and I'm looking forward to comments and feedback on the
material.

Lates,
Ken
Pro-Tem Member of the ShadowRN Neon Purple Shirt Brigade
Message no. 7
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:40:49 EDT
OK, just one question: Do deckers STILL require their own session,
hell...basically their own game? Or has it been sped up so Meatones and
trixers can work in synch sanely?
Message no. 8
From: Kenneth Peters tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:53:36 -0400
At 11:40 PM 8/16/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>OK, just one question: Do deckers STILL require their own session,
>hell...basically their own game? Or has it been sped up so Meatones and
>trixers can work in synch sanely?
>
No rules changes like that. They already CAN work directly in a game
session if you are running during combat. The prob of running a decker
during a game session requiring a separate "game" has not really been
addressed I'm afraid. There were several tries at a "quick resolution
system" and nothing stuck. Hell even Mike wrote one from what I gather.

I can give you the official "Mike-like Answer" and say "Maybe in SOTA"
:)

Kenneth
Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:29:36 +0200
According to DemonPenta@***.com, at 23:40 on 16 Aug 00, the word on the
street was...

> OK, just one question: Do deckers STILL require their own session,
> hell...basically their own game? Or has it been sped up so Meatones and
> trixers can work in synch sanely?

It's still the same rules as in VR 2.0/SR3 (what, you thought they'd
changed them _again_? :) The Matrix gives more options, revises the design
rules, and explains a bit more stuff that was always handy to know but
wasn't in any books, but it's still the same game system.

So to answer your question: deckers STILL require their own session.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 08:32:20 -0500
rom: "Kenneth Peters" <tzeentch666@*********.net>
Subject: Re: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions


> (>)I'm still in New York but I'll do a mini-note in the meantime. I can't
> be too objective about it but I'll point out some of the BIG changes
> between this book and VR2.
> -Task Bonuses: No longer exist. Programming on mainframes reduces the
> target numbers but that is it. I asked Rob Boyle and it was removed for
> reasons regarding rules exceptions.

Which still doesn't help, even with the following consideration in many
cases...

> -Programming Times. Cut in half. Now its Size In Mpºse time in days.
> Merry christmas!

ew ah... 2 years versus 4... okay...

> -Frames. You can now "spoof" commands to them and they are FAR more
capable
> then before. Especially with agents - even the wimpy versions that made it
in.

Yes, have to admit, they do perform better than they used to.

> -Otaku. Both better and screwed. The Fading screws long-term players while
> the Initiate-level abilities actually makes them usable in the game now.
> The freakin' "tribe creation tables" are ultra-lame and should have died a
> long terrible death. I'm shooting a flaming arrow at D_E for that! :)

Terrible and *TORTUROUS* Ken, get it right ;-)

> -Satellites. Well, nuff said about that!

Smirk

> -IC. Programming rules! But since the host rules were cut you still can't
> use them.

Laugh

> -Jackpoint Bandwidth. No longer technically infinite with assloads of
> Retrains. Use lowest of jackpoint or deck I/O. In fact there IS no longer
> an Retrain operation! Whoo-hoo!

Hmmm ... interesting, going to have figure out how to try and loose Trace IC
then...

> -Computer Construction time. Blame Mongoose for any problems. Far simpler,
> and my friend already has a program for making decks so its no biggy.
Decks
> are still RIDICULOUSLY overpriced though.

Very much so and still considerably too difficult for anything truly quick
and easy to do.

> -AIs. Descriptions of most of the AIs. Why they left old Psychotrope out I
> dunno.

Actually, look at the histories/descriptions a bit closer and you'll
discover they didn't actually get rid of it.

> There are a few ultra-tiny problems I spotted but I haven't seen anything
> game-breaking yet. If there are any problems it will likely be in the
> information search rules since they have the most modifiers.

Probably, but at least these rules exist.

> I'll post a big review after I get back. In the meantime I hope you all
> enjoy the book and I'm looking forward to comments and feedback on the
> material.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Some)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 11
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 10:01:15 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 DemonPenta@***.com wrote:

> OK, just one question: Do deckers STILL require their own session,
> hell...basically their own game? Or has it been sped up so Meatones and
> trixers can work in synch sanely?

They always could, you just need to know how to do it right.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@****.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 12
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:17:40 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/00 10:02:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
renouf@********.com writes:

> On Wed, 16 Aug 2000 DemonPenta@***.com wrote:
>
> > OK, just one question: Do deckers STILL require their own session,
> > hell...basically their own game? Or has it been sped up so Meatones and
> > trixers can work in synch sanely?
>
> They always could, you just need to know how to do it right.
>

Do you specialize in being UTTERLY unhelpful?\

John
Message no. 13
From: Fyre - AKA Colin fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 18:38:52 +0100
Okay: I've only paged through the book, but one thing I don't like
already is the matrix addiction flaw...

WTF? the character gets 2-6 extra points for what? Being even more 2D?
It's like putting an 'addiction to casting spells' flaw in MITS.

The matrix tends to isolate the decker, he needs his own game run for
him, there is now a new flaw which means this must be done, in essence,
for even more of the time? And he can put his other skills up to-boot?
Methinks I wouldn't allow that flaw in one of my games.
DarkFyre
--
fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Message no. 14
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:38:04 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/00 1:47:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
fyre@******.demon.co.uk writes:

> Okay: I've only paged through the book, but one thing I don't like
> already is the matrix addiction flaw...
>
> WTF? the character gets 2-6 extra points for what? Being even more 2D?
> It's like putting an 'addiction to casting spells' flaw in MITS.

So don't make it so expensive....don't forget, not every decker is plugged in
24-7....and one who is would certianly have problems with that little thing
called human interaction...the trick would be as a GM to make the character
have to do more of that than normal.

>The matrix tends to isolate the decker, he needs his own game run for
>him, there is now a new flaw which means this must be done, in essence,
>for even more of the time? And he can put his other skills up to-boot?
>Methinks I wouldn't allow that flaw in one of my games.

So don't... :)

Syphon
Message no. 15
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:43:36 -0700
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to DemonPenta@***.com, at 23:40 on 16 Aug 00, the word on the
> street was...
>
> > OK, just one question: Do deckers STILL require their own session,
> > hell...basically their own game? Or has it been sped up so Meatones and
> > trixers can work in synch sanely?
>
> So to answer your question: deckers STILL require their own session.
>

No, they don't. I don't know how the rest of you run it, but in my games,
the decker's run fits perfectly with everything else. VR2.0 went a long way
for allowing this to happen, and as a result, deckers are more favorable
now.

-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

"The splendor of the Universe pales in comparison to that of a fine woman."
-Me '2K
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GU d- s+:+>: a22 C++++ UL-- P L+(--) E? W+++ N++ o? K- w+ O---- M-(--) V?
!PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv b+++>$ DI++++ D++ G+ e* h--- r+++ z+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 16
From: DemonPenta@***.com DemonPenta@***.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 14:46:35 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/00 2:44:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
zebulingod@*****.com writes:

> No, they don't. I don't know how the rest of you run it, but in my games,
> the decker's run fits perfectly with everything else. VR2.0 went a long way
> for allowing this to happen, and as a result, deckers are more favorable
> now.

HOW do you do that?
Message no. 17
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:42:01 -0500
Keneth Peters said:
:-Computer Construction time. Blame Mongoose for any problems. Far simpler,
:and my friend already has a program for making decks so its no biggy. Decks
:are still RIDICULOUSLY overpriced though.

Ken is in error- I had very little to do with computer comstruction
rules. I only figured out a way the math used to compute the PRICE of
custom decks could be simplified a bit.
In any case, I didn't actually write any of the final text for either
construction or pricing, and none of the ideas in the cyberdeck construction
rules themselves are mine to take credit for more than any other playtester.
As far as I know, the section was written "in house", although some
other playtester(s) might also have contributed useful suggestions.

Mongoose


_____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
Message no. 18
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:19:12 -0500
From: <DemonPenta@***.com>
Subject: Re: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions


> In a message dated 8/17/00 2:44:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> zebulingod@*****.com writes:
>
> > No, they don't. I don't know how the rest of you run it, but in my
games,
> > the decker's run fits perfectly with everything else. VR2.0 went a long
way
> > for allowing this to happen, and as a result, deckers are more
favorable
> > now.
>
> HOW do you do that?

First and foremost, you get rid of the attitude that "Deckers are NPC's".
Once you get yourself into a different mindset, the obstacles as they are
become far more playable.

Secondly, you consider the fact that TIME as an entity in reality, as far as
human beings perceive it, is a linear abstraction that is merely a tool by
with which to measure a series of actions. In game terms, this means that
you basically dump one rule that has ever existed within the core rules of
Shadowrun.

Who goes first in a phase.

When a group of PC's and NPC's role for initiative, you don't "do astral
first, then matrix, then characters" ... and worse, don't play riggers into
the "rigger decides everyone elses' action phase" mentality. Play all
initiatives as being within the same reference.

Third, you take close note of the term communications. Something that we
did in our games a long time ago was learn that a cybercommunications suite
could be hooked up as a "peripheral" on a cyberdeck and a rigger remote
control deck both. Then, the "comm channels" could include everyone that is
involved in an action. In the new rules, the "BattleTAC Matrix Link" (or
whatever it's called) is a very useful, very powerful, tool.

Fourth, get your heads and minds out of the "combat wins the game" mentality
as well. Planning can go a very long way towards bringing ones team, and
self, up into the scale of useful playability. Yes, having the force to
back up the actions win, but knowing how to better apply what you have will
really go the distance.

Fifth, don't think from the POV that every single action involving an active
skill *MUST* generate so many successes in order to succeed that it looks
more like a combat round. If all else fails, make the majority of the
actions a decker, or anyone else for that matter, into a resisted test
(which is ultimately what most tests in SR are) between the PC and the
opponent. In most decking situations, simply remember that the System/Host
rating is the number of dice, the "skill" as it were, of the Host against
the decker's actions. The ACIFS are nothing more than tools to speed along
the determination of most of the target numbers a decker has to use.

No offense to anyone/everyone, but I've mostly discovered, both at Gencon
and local demo games and even our home game, that *THE* biggest obstacle in
front of anyone playing a decker/techie character is they believe that since
they know next to nothing about the topic/subject at hand, that they are
incapable of playing such a character.

We have a large group, yes. And that size has allowed us to consider that
it simply should never be possible that just because there is one "decker"
does not mean there cannot be more than one "computer operator" in the
group. Hell, if that were true, then our games would be so incredibly
boring simply because if it were one decker doing "decking stuff" and having
9 players sitting around getting bored... the game degrades fast. In fact,
by combining cybercommunications and "hitcher jacks" into a system, it has
become possible for literally out of 10 players at some games, to have
upwards of 5 of them directly/indirectly involved into any single matrix
action. Hell, the third/fourth in running "deckers" of the group are
actually the Oak Shamaness (Dazed) and the Primary Rigger (Buzz). Even the
mercenary has discovered that by helping to pick up computer skills, he's
been able to join on major programming teams and help out (intelligible
usage of the rules helps).

Time and time again the list, the newsgroups, and the message boards all
have people saying "I just don't get how it can be done." Please believe me
when I say it is possible to do it. You just have to let yourself believe
it can be done.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Some)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
Hoosier Hacker House (www.hoosierhackerhouse.com)
Message no. 19
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:50:18 +0200
> We have a large group, yes. And that size has allowed us to consider that
> it simply should never be possible that just because there is one "decker"
> does not mean there cannot be more than one "computer operator" in the
> group. Hell, if that were true, then our games would be so incredibly
> boring simply because if it were one decker doing "decking stuff" and
having
> 9 players sitting around getting bored... the game degrades fast. In
fact,
> by combining cybercommunications and "hitcher jacks" into a system, it has
> become possible for literally out of 10 players at some games, to have
> upwards of 5 of them directly/indirectly involved into any single matrix
> action. Hell, the third/fourth in running "deckers" of the group are
> actually the Oak Shamaness (Dazed) and the Primary Rigger (Buzz). Even
the
> mercenary has discovered that by helping to pick up computer skills, he's
> been able to join on major programming teams and help out (intelligible
> usage of the rules helps).
>
> Time and time again the list, the newsgroups, and the message boards all
> have people saying "I just don't get how it can be done." Please believe
me
> when I say it is possible to do it. You just have to let yourself believe
> it can be done.


I snipped most of your message, because it simply didn't apply to me. I've
never had a situation where I had deckers decking while combat out of the
matrix occured, not because we haven't played with deckers a lot, as we
have, and neither do my players think combat is the solution to everything,
which is quite au pas contraire (If I quote the term right). I have many a
player with no clue about computers willing and wanting to play deckers, and
simply, almost 75% of your message didn't apply to my problem. It's probably
me not explaining myself better tho, not pinpoiting my problem. Exactly when
I thought you were completely not answering my question (not your fault, as
I said), you mentioned it in one line.
"our games would be so incredibly boring simply because if it were one
decker doing "decking stuff" and having 9 players sitting around getting
bored..."
Only I have 3 players. We played with hitcher jacks, but that didn't help a
lot. our problem is, that the matrix is run as a seperate game. It takes a
long time where only one player rolls, cut by artificially sounding
descriptions, which even those are mostly technical knowledge requiring,
except sculpted systems, and still, the descriptions sound so artificially
made to make the others interested. The decker is not interested in them,
and I can't blame him. the matrix is a rule-based system, not a role-playing
based one like the reality. Players other then the decker don't feel they
can contribute to it, and thus banned the matrix from our games.
I am truely sorry for that, but even simplifing the rules system won't work.
Its still not interesting, simply reduces the time - but at the cost of the
interest of the decker. How to solve this, can you answer?
Btw, some part about matrix/rigging and battletac matix link being strong -
I skimmed through and didn't really read. I didn't seem important. =]

-Nimster
Message no. 20
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:54:18 +0200
Btw I forgot to mention it...
Sorry - I hate sending multiple messages but this is to save your time in
the answer-
me and the decker do understand the matrix very well and have no problem
with it. Infact, the rules are ten times simpler then Magic, rigging and
even combat rules, really.
Even if we do explain to other players what he is doing and how, they lack
the interest to really remember all of it, etc. No passion for it, since it
seems to them so out of place. Its simply the fact its one of the longest
one player action periods.
I will continue trying, as always, methods to combine it, like interlacing
it with other players actions outside the matrix, again explaining the other
players whats happening to the decker and what he's doing, But Im still
looking for a definite answer.
Message no. 21
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 22:58:50 -0700
<DemonPenta@***.com> wrote:

> In response to a message dated 8/17/00 2:44:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> zebulingod@*****.com writes:
>
> > No, they don't. I don't know how the rest of you run it, but in my
games,
> > the decker's run fits perfectly with everything else. VR2.0 went a long
way
> > for allowing this to happen, and as a result, deckers are more
favorable
> > now.
>
> HOW do you do that?
>

Let me clarify:

The "pre-run" run still takes a little longer to do and usually I free-form
it unless it is absolutely critical. This removes the "decker session" as it
can be known. After that, the stuff that deckers do to help their pals on
the run fits in perfectly with combat. The actions have been simplified to
take advantage of the combat round. Now a decker can log on, find and edit
security footage (as the runners are doing their thing) find and edit the
security logs (again, while the runners are doing their thing) and then help
the runners back out before leaving themselves.

It makes perfect sense to me, am I missing something?


-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

"The splendor of the Universe pales in comparison to that of a fine woman."
-Me '2K
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GU d- s+:+>: a22 C++++ UL-- P L+(--) E? W+++ N++ o? K- w+ O---- M-(--) V?
!PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv b+++>$ DI++++ D++ G+ e* h--- r+++ z+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 22
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:50:32 +0200
According to Zebulin Magby, at 11:43 on 17 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> No, they don't. I don't know how the rest of you run it, but in my games,
> the decker's run fits perfectly with everything else. VR2.0 went a long way
> for allowing this to happen, and as a result, deckers are more favorable
> now.

Like astrally-projecting magicians, deckers go off and do their stuff
while the rest of the players sit on their asses. The difference is that,
at least in my group, the astral magician usually scouts out a place that
everyone has an interest in, so they still pay attention to things the
character discovers (like the layout of a building), while deckers are
somewhere else entirely and what they do often gives no information that's
immediately useful to the other players.

I won't dispute that VR 2.0 made deckers a lot easier to integrate into
the game, because the runs don't take so damn long as they did with
SR1/VR1.0/SR2, but it's still a situation where the GM is dealing with the
decker exclusively much of the time. I call that "their own game."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 00:34:37 -0400
>>>Gurth wrote:
"I won't dispute that VR 2.0 made deckers a lot easier to integrate into
the game, because the runs don't take so damn long as they did with
SR1/VR1.0/SR2, but it's still a situation where the GM is dealing with the
decker exclusively much of the time. I call that "their own game."

.:Reply:.
I disagree. I think that it is completely possible to run a game where
decking can be run directly alongside "real-time" events. Overwatch being
the easiest way to do this..

I also think that it is possible as a GM to keep the interest of other
players while running an expclusive session with a decker (I suggesta
limit of around 30 minutes), as long as you yourself don't allow yourself
to become bored with it. Continue being descriptive, energetic, and
mysterious.. they'll listen!

$0.02,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 24
From: Wolfstar wolfstar@********.net
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 02:04:06 -0400
<LurkMode=Off>
<Rant>

FINALLY!!!!!

In reading this thread, I consistently see one thing missing.

(Please note, I'm going to be brutal and blunt on this. It's easier than
tapdancing, and I just got off my first night of work after vacation.)

That one thing is a simple lack of the ability to multi-task. Come ON
people, it's not THAT hard. It's practically one of the first things
that any GM needs to learn. If the street sam's off pounding pavement
and hitting up his contacts for info, do you ignore the Rigger and the
Mage? No, you find out what the Sammie's doing, give him a basic
rundown, maybe a quick dice roll or two, then move on and repeat with
the Rigger and Mage.

WHY CAN'T PEOPLE DO THIS WITH A DECKER DAMMIT?!?!

I can predict some of the arguments right off the bat; the biggest one
being that the other characters wouldn't have any idea what the Decker
is experiencing.

Utter Garbage.

The mage and rigger won't have a clue as to what the sammie is doing
either, so that restriction is removed, and if you have a problem with
players separating in-game and out-of-game knowledge, then that's a
problem with the players, NOT a flaw in the system.

Nimster mentioned that it's too rules oriented, and the descriptions
seem too artificial. They're SUPPOSED to. The Matrix is an entirely
separate world, another plane of existence made of neon, chrome,
electron, and light. There are, for all practical purposes, no limits
to what the Matrix is. If there's a lack of realistic sounding
descriptions, then it's a fault of poor matrix planning - overall, not
just for the individual game session - on the part of the GM. The
other, non-decker, characters don't NEED to know the gritty details and
technical terms unless they're actually doing computer work(In which
case, they should read the rules governing the things they do), and if
you need to make lotsa dice rolls outside combat, then you need to
revise how you run games. The best game sessions I've ever had involved
6 hours of roleplaying and one die roll.

Deckers are really easy to integrate. All you've got to do is stop
sticking so hard to the rules. They ARE made to be broken after all.

</Rant>
<LurkMode=ON>

--
Wolfstar
wolfstar@********.net
"Don't Make Me Come Down There..." -- God
Message no. 25
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 11:28:06 +0200
> Nimster mentioned that it's too rules oriented, and the descriptions
> seem too artificial. They're SUPPOSED to. The Matrix is an entirely
> separate world, another plane of existence made of neon, chrome,
> electron, and light. There are, for all practical purposes, no limits
> to what the Matrix is. If there's a lack of realistic sounding
> descriptions, then it's a fault of poor matrix planning - overall, not
> just for the individual game session - on the part of the GM. The
> other, non-decker, characters don't NEED to know the gritty details and
> technical terms unless they're actually doing computer work(In which
> case, they should read the rules governing the things they do), and if
> you need to make lotsa dice rolls outside combat, then you need to
> revise how you run games. The best game sessions I've ever had involved
> 6 hours of roleplaying and one die roll.

All was right, except for the part here. Like I believe I mentioned (maybe
privately and not to the list actually) I am, too, handling rules very
easily and take a much more free form "If you want to do it, do it"
approach. But, and that's a big but, the whole *point* of the matrix is the
rolls. I'm sorry to say it but it's true. While in combat, magic, and even
rigging, you can let players do cool stuff without rolling for
dramatazition, it acts the other way around in the matrix. If the player
tells me, "I try to hack the control system to shut down all elevators" and
I tell him "Okay, you do that (description following)", I feel like a
circuimstanced (sp?) The fun in the game. Opposed to "Okay I give the car a
little boost, up to 180mph and take a risk and jump with the ramp over the
river" - here, dicing is what will ruin it. In those situations you cn
either play hard on the players and tell them it fails, or let them for the
action and coolness of it, to do it. Lettinf dice decide that for you sucks.
In the matrix, I simply feel no dice=no fun. The ehole way the tally goes up
in small steps, the decker having to guess what happens, having to burn
karma if he failed just because he fears his tally is already to high...
Simply it's a system which rules define.

That's how I feel. Flame away.

And I still like it, btw.

-Nimster
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 11:18:34 +0200
According to Aristotle, at 0:34 on 19 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> I disagree. I think that it is completely possible to run a game where
> decking can be run directly alongside "real-time" events. Overwatch being
> the easiest way to do this..

Yes, and it works fairly well provided both decker and GM know what
they're doing. But when the decker goes off to break into a system to get
some information, it's a decker-only game.

> I also think that it is possible as a GM to keep the interest of other
> players while running an expclusive session with a decker (I suggesta
> limit of around 30 minutes), as long as you yourself don't allow yourself
> to become bored with it. Continue being descriptive, energetic, and
> mysterious.. they'll listen!

That's my (or my group's) problem with using the Matrix rules -- what you
can do is pretty much fixed, so that when there's a decker in the game
doing what deckers do, it proceeds along the lines of

Decker: "I do a Logon To Host operation to get into the host."
GM: "Okay, roll dice. You get in, no problem."
Decker: "Now I search for files about Project X."
GM: *flicks through book to find the TN and utility needed* "Roll dice.
You don't find anything but there's this icon coming for you now."
Decker: "I Analyze it."

and so on. This isn't exciting, and that's the problem. Describing decking
in an exciting way would, for me anyway, be analogous to describing how
you navigate over your hard drive in an exciting way.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: Wolfstar wolfstar@********.net
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 11:53:41 -0400
On Sat, 19 Aug 2000, you wrote:

> All was right, except for the part here. Like I believe I mentioned (maybe
> privately and not to the list actually) I am, too, handling rules very
> easily and take a much more free form "If you want to do it, do it"
> approach. But, and that's a big but, the whole *point* of the matrix is the
> rolls. I'm sorry to say it but it's true. While in combat, magic, and even
> rigging, you can let players do cool stuff without rolling for
> dramatazition, it acts the other way around in the matrix. If the player
> tells me, "I try to hack the control system to shut down all elevators" and
> I tell him "Okay, you do that (description following)", I feel like a
> circuimstanced (sp?) The fun in the game.

Critical maneuvers in the game such as this should ALWAYS require a
roll, and that happens to be an Overwatch-type situation. Having the
Host mapped out and the character's stats both when setting up the run
makes this a simple matter - all you have to do is determine the base
difficulties ahead of time, and modify for anything slightly funky the
players come up with.

> Opposed to "Okay I give the car a
> little boost, up to 180mph and take a risk and jump with the ramp over the
> river" - here, dicing is what will ruin it. In those situations you cn
> either play hard on the players and tell them it fails, or let them for the
> action and coolness of it, to do it. Lettinf dice decide that for you sucks.

I agree with that. That's the stuff of legends though, so sometimes
it's BETTER to roll the dice and have them blow the karma on it, but I
can't honestly say I blame you for going the arbitrary route.

> In the matrix, I simply feel no dice=no fun. The whole way the tally goes up
> in small steps, the decker having to guess what happens, having to burn
> karma if he failed just because he fears his tally is already to high...
> Simply it's a system which rules define.

I think you're neglecting to consider precisely how paranoid you can
make a player by not having them roll dice. If you can roleplay it
straight through rather than having them roll every step of the way,
then they start wondering why the hell it's so easy, then freak the
first time you tell 'em to roll dice. There are plenty of ways to do
it, you just need to find one that fits. For non-critical or easy
operations, I'd say that if the character's computer skill + Utility
rating = Twice the Target Number, consider it an automatic success. If
Computer Skill + Utility rating = more than the target number but less
than double the target, they can succeed, but it adds to their tally.
Anything else and they can roll. Obviously you don't use this in major
plot-based systems or during combat, but there's options.


> That's how I feel. Flame away.

Consider yourself Flamed.

--
Wolfstar
wolfstar@********.net
"Don't Make Me Come Down There...." -- God
Message no. 28
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 10:27:15 -0700
"Nimster" <nimster@*********.net.il> wrote:
>
> All was right, except for the part here. Like I believe I mentioned (maybe
> privately and not to the list actually) I am, too, handling rules very
> easily and take a much more free form "If you want to do it, do it"
> approach. But, and that's a big but, the whole *point* of the matrix is
the
> rolls.

I'm going to have to disagree here. I believe (YMMV) that the Matrix is not
*just* about the rolls. Sure, there are times when you need to roll dice,
and you already mentioned that you freeform a lot of stuff. *However*, there
are also times when rolling the dice doesn't make any sense, whether it is
because the Decker has a Computer Skill of 9 and a Deception of 8 (Making
any sort of log-on/off operation pointless to roll, he's going to succeed)
or it is because the Decker is performing a routine operation (ie, checking
the file transfer to make sure it is still running - "Null-Op").

> I'm sorry to say it but it's true. While in combat, magic, and even
> rigging, you can let players do cool stuff without rolling for
> dramatazition, it acts the other way around in the matrix. If the player
> tells me, "I try to hack the control system to shut down all elevators"
and
> I tell him "Okay, you do that (description following)", I feel like a
> circuimstanced (sp?) The fun in the game. Opposed to "Okay I give the car
a
> little boost, up to 180mph and take a risk and jump with the ramp over the
> river"

Ah, but why should your Rigger be able to do something like that if your
Decker cannot perform a similar stunt whilst in the Matrix? Or you Street
Sam or Mage? Why are they special? Everyone has a niche, and everyone can be
free-formed, trust me, I've done it and still do.

> - here, dicing is what will ruin it. In those situations you cn
> either play hard on the players and tell them it fails, or let them for
the
> action and coolness of it, to do it. Lettinf dice decide that for you
sucks.
> In the matrix, I simply feel no dice=no fun. The ehole way the tally goes
up
> in small steps, the decker having to guess what happens, having to burn
> karma if he failed just because he fears his tally is already to high...
> Simply it's a system which rules define.
>

The entire game of Shadowrun is a system which rules define! However, in
response, particularly to the tally item, I say free-form it! If the
character has a high enough computer skill and utility rating, who cares if
they roll? They're going to succeed! (Unless you don't want them to for some
reason, and then that's up to you.) If you need the tally to go up, have it
go up. This way, you can add a little more spice into the game. Also, if
your Rigger is going to be allowed to make that jump in his car without
rolling any dice (which probably would have seen him fail) then your Decker
should be allowed to do something similar (even if it is only being able to
log onto a "ded 'ard" host or finding that critical file). To not allow them
the same leeway is, well, unfair. (And before anyone jumps at me for saying
that, it is part of the GM section of the rulebook SR3, pg251.)

In my games, usually, I allow characters to do as they wish without rolling
alot of dice (except in combat - this applies to everyone during the combat
round, tho). Whether they be Mage, Rigger, Sam, or Decker, I feel that I
have the ability to free-form and make decisions based on what I know about
their characters. I have the ability to tell the story as it unfolds, take
into account their actions and then continue with the story. How is this
difficult?


-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

"The splendor of the Universe pales in comparison to that of a fine woman."
-Me '2K
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GU d- s+:+>: a22 C++++ UL-- P L+(--) E? W+++ N++ o? K- w+ O---- M-(--) V?
!PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv b+++>$ DI++++ D++ G+ e* h--- r+++ z+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 29
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 20:30:46 +0200
Wolfstar wrote:

<snipped original message>

> Critical maneuvers in the game such as this should ALWAYS require a
> roll, and that happens to be an Overwatch-type situation. Having the
> Host mapped out and the character's stats both when setting up the run
> makes this a simple matter - all you have to do is determine the base
> difficulties ahead of time, and modify for anything slightly funky the
> players come up with.
>

I do not say the rules take a long time. Infact, something I, too said in a
private reply, is that I feel that while they require the most preperation
ahead, they require the least time, with combat and magic truely being more
complicated in my opinion. But this is is still not a solution to the
alienation players feel. Someone mentioned it, and I 100% agree, that most
players will be interested whe a player runs through his contacts in
legwork, when a mage goes astrally pecieving, etc. even if it's info they're
not supposed to know. But when a decker runs a game, and I for one have
truely not the slightest idea why, having never been a player, and having
real interest in decking and the matrix, other players simply lack interest.
An idea comes to mind - It's like theres a lot of boring leeway for one
goal. To do 1 important thing, like shut the cameras down, the decker has to
log on to the host, search for 'doors' to other hosts, log on to the
appropriate one, analyze it, then hack the control system, and that's
assuming there are no IC, it can be done so easily, and he knows where it
is. If you call a contact, the only "boring leeway" is when/if the GM plays
the phone ("Ring ring! ring...") :). That's just an idea which came to mind
thinking on this message now.

<snipped original message>

> I agree with that. That's the stuff of legends though, so sometimes
> it's BETTER to roll the dice and have them blow the karma on it, but I
> can't honestly say I blame you for going the arbitrary route.
>

<snipped original message>
Yes, well that has its implications. it might not have been the best
example, but you caught my wind

> I think you're neglecting to consider precisely how paranoid you can
> make a player by not having them roll dice. If you can roleplay it
> straight through rather than having them roll every step of the way,
> then they start wondering why the hell it's so easy, then freak the
> first time you tell 'em to roll dice. There are plenty of ways to do
> it, you just need to find one that fits. For non-critical or easy
> operations, I'd say that if the character's computer skill + Utility
> rating = Twice the Target Number, consider it an automatic success. If
> Computer Skill + Utility rating = more than the target number but less
> than double the target, they can succeed, but it adds to their tally.
> Anything else and they can roll. Obviously you don't use this in major
> plot-based systems or during combat, but there's options.
>

Good idea, actually, I might implement it, but it's for low end stuff. D'you
really think Im that in loove with the matrix I actually roll for logging on
to Seattle LTG and browsing in that low-tech system?

>
> Consider yourself Flamed.
>

Back at you! :)

-Nimster
Message no. 30
From: Zebulin Magby zebulingod@*****.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 10:30:36 -0700
"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>
> Decker: "I do a Logon To Host operation to get into the host."
> GM: "Okay, roll dice. You get in, no problem."
> Decker: "Now I search for files about Project X."
> GM: *flicks through book to find the TN and utility needed* "Roll dice.
> You don't find anything but there's this icon coming for you now."
> Decker: "I Analyze it."
>
> and so on. This isn't exciting, and that's the problem. Describing decking
> in an exciting way would, for me anyway, be analogous to describing how
> you navigate over your hard drive in an exciting way.
>

Um, I may be wrong, and correct me if I am, but didn't VR2.0 mention that
the use of sculpted systems had become a lot more common? Even if it hadn't,
try throwing your Deckers into them more often. I can almost guarantee that
it'll stop being "not exciting" right about then.

Decking can be just as "glamorous" as being a Sam or a Rigger, but the GM
has to help the player out in that respect.


-Zebulin-Magby-
ICQ: 21932827
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++

"The splendor of the Universe pales in comparison to that of a fine woman."
-Me '2K
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GU d- s+:+>: a22 C++++ UL-- P L+(--) E? W+++ N++ o? K- w+ O---- M-(--) V?
!PS PE Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv b+++>$ DI++++ D++ G+ e* h--- r+++ z+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
Message no. 31
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 20:42:29 +0200
> Decker: "I do a Logon To Host operation to get into the host."
> GM: "Okay, roll dice. You get in, no problem."
> Decker: "Now I search for files about Project X."
> GM: *flicks through book to find the TN and utility needed* "Roll dice.
> You don't find anything but there's this icon coming for you now."
> Decker: "I Analyze it."
>
> and so on. This isn't exciting, and that's the problem. Describing decking
> in an exciting way would, for me anyway, be analogous to describing how
> you navigate over your hard drive in an exciting way.
>

ROFL...
:)
Well that's one problem that can be solved, by adding cool stuff like
PLTG's, vanishing SAN's, trapdoors, sculpted systems, and a good original
decker. for example my decker player, (me proud!) if he has lots of stuff to
do on the system, he'd do a "get ops" procedure (I think that's the
name...), so he can enter it later on the run, and do simple things
uninterrupted. We also invented operations, shticks (gadgets) in systems and
the likes. It really didnt repeat itself. Especially since every sculpted
system is different, vanishing SAN's requiring some form of (meta)human
interaction, and since I also put lots of deckers around, it made it
different every time.
Message no. 32
From: Nimster nimster@*********.net.il
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 22:21:28 +0200
>
> The entire game of Shadowrun is a system which rules define! However, in
> response, particularly to the tally item, I say free-form it! If the
> character has a high enough computer skill and utility rating, who cares
if
> they roll? They're going to succeed! (Unless you don't want them to for
some
> reason, and then that's up to you.) If you need the tally to go up, have
it
> go up. This way, you can add a little more spice into the game. Also, if
> your Rigger is going to be allowed to make that jump in his car without
> rolling any dice (which probably would have seen him fail) then your
Decker
> should be allowed to do something similar (even if it is only being able
to
> log onto a "ded 'ard" host or finding that critical file). To not allow
them
> the same leeway is, well, unfair. (And before anyone jumps at me for
saying
> that, it is part of the GM section of the rulebook SR3, pg251.)
>

I can see your point, and still it is not the same. I allow heroic acts for
the fun of the game. if I see my street sam (well, equivilent. My players
have this streetsamphobia, fearing others will call them power players for
that) all excited and hooked up to the game, so for making the whole scene
look a lot cooler, I let him not throw Athletics whne he tells me I want to
do a backflip while shooting, land behind his two opponents, and bang their
head together or run on the wall, a la 'The Matrix', It's all part of the
dramatization.
And again, and I hate repeating, believe me, I don't sense it is similiar to
letting my decker succeed killing that black IC, or Closing down some sort
of corp machinery. They're both as hard, they're both as critical, but I
can't allow the decker not to throw dice for that. Of course I dont roll
logon to LTG, or anything else which is extremely simple for that matter,
and dont up the tally as well, same as I won't roll for combat with a
pedestrian should my players want to combat him.
I'm not gonna say that again, I feel sick enough saying it twice. I really
do think what you say is true, and should apply to all other aspects of the
game. However, in the matrix it detracts (I think that's the word, eek... I
hope you know what I mean) from the game, rather then add fun to it. Of
course, that's my opinion. And maybe it's just the specific player which
always plays decker at our groups, but I think he'd agree too.

> In my games, usually, I allow characters to do as they wish without
rolling
> alot of dice (except in combat - this applies to everyone during the
combat
> round, tho). Whether they be Mage, Rigger, Sam, or Decker, I feel that I
> have the ability to free-form and make decisions based on what I know
about
> their characters. I have the ability to tell the story as it unfolds, take
> into account their actions and then continue with the story. How is this
> difficult?
>

I didn't say it was difficult. I said other players aren't interested in the
decker or what he does, and that his actions usually take long (although it
is true that some contactwork/etc. even takes longer, but that rarely does,
and still the players are interested in it).
Remember that's how the discussion started.
Now I'm not gonna reply to any more messages in this subject unless they
have anything new to say. Maybe it's just my players which are too
neandethral, but if you experience(d) the same thing, and have a solution,
feel free to send it.

-Nimster.
Message no. 33
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 14:58:44 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Nimster <nimster@*********.net.il>
> And again, and I hate repeating, believe me, I don't sense it is similiar
to
> letting my decker succeed killing that black IC, or Closing down some sort
> of corp machinery. They're both as hard, they're both as critical, but I
> can't allow the decker not to throw dice for that.

Why not?

If you allow the Sammie to do HK-acrobatics during a *firefight* (a
situation that requires die rolls if ever there were one), why can't you let
the decker pull the same kind of thing? I honestly can't understand why you
have this attitude that the numbers are so important in the Matrix. Could
you please try and explain it a little better?

-- Josh
Message no. 34
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 00:58:21 -0500
on 8/18/00 4:50 AM, Gurth at gurth@******.nl e-scribed:

> Like astrally-projecting magicians, deckers go off and do their stuff
> while the rest of the players sit on their asses.

Decker time is always "get a snack" time for everyone else, or else "play
nasty jokes on the decker" time. Of course, game time & real time are
grossly different w/ decking. IIRC, it's a whole lot faster than looking
something up on the WWW today.

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 35
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 11:33:34 +0200
According to Zebulin Magby, at 10:30 on 19 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> Um, I may be wrong, and correct me if I am, but didn't VR2.0 mention that
> the use of sculpted systems had become a lot more common? Even if it hadn't,
> try throwing your Deckers into them more often. I can almost guarantee that
> it'll stop being "not exciting" right about then.

I tried that, and it didn't really work. The basic problem with decking,
IMHO, is that it describes just about everything you can do, instead of
only giving guidelines for the most commonly-encountered stuff. This is
understandable, as you can't do something on a computer that it's not
programmed for, but it almost forces me anyway into thinking about the
Matrix as a place where you choose from a few basic options and roll dice
to see what happens, with all the rest being not much more than window
dressing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 36
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:39:11 -0700
From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*****.com>
> Ken is in error- I had very little to do with computer comstruction
> rules. I only figured out a way the math used to compute the PRICE of
> custom decks could be simplified a bit.
> In any case, I didn't actually write any of the final text for either
> construction or pricing, and none of the ideas in the cyberdeck
construction
> rules themselves are mine to take credit for more than any other
playtester.
> As far as I know, the section was written "in house", although some
> other playtester(s) might also have contributed useful suggestions.

Ahh, my bad. That was the impression I got during our super-short chat.

But we can still blame you, you're a convenient scapegoat ;)

Kenneth
"On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the
machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to
apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a
question."
-- Charles Babbage

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Gen Con Matrix - Initial Impressions, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!