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Message no. 1
From: "The Great Gonzo `8r) (Ben Granzeau P304)"
Subject: Gender Benders and successful players...
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 01:47:59 CST
> HE? Dumb question, for the list in general: how have "gender benders"
(i.e.
> people playing members of the opposite sex) worked for y'all? I've seen 3+
> done, but have yet to see one done well. (IMHO, guys)

I have a character named Shade who I have played in around 300+
adventures. She has been through more shit than you could believe.
This is the character that her essence increased. I have had to retire
her to NPC playing because she got so powerful. But she was my first
girl that I had played in SR and was just really a tough sam. It worked
out nicely. Anyway, I thought it was fun. Luckly, never any romantic
entaglements...

Here's an idea for you guys to chew on: How about increase of essence w
ith the expendature of 50 karma? I used a different method but do you
think that would work?
the G-man
`8r)

The Not-So-Great-As-Sir-Launcelot Gonzo `8r) Upperclass Twit and geek.
Barney must die!! Slowly and Painfully. ^----Gonzo Smiley
"Full goofy mode : On!!!" -- Me. (Just humor him. He might go away.)
"I was cured, alright."--Alex, _A Clockwork Orange_
"What do you thinks, sirs?"--Joel, Mystery Science Theatre 3000
"No sir, I didn't like it."--Mr. Horse, R&S-Ask for it by name!!
~!@#$%&*()_+`-=;'\:"|,./?~!@#$%&*()_+`-=;'\:"|,./?~!@#$%&*()_+`-=;'\:"|,./?
All complaints to my puppeteer. I don't always agree with myself...
Message no. 2
From: Thom Watson <thom@******.DIGEX.NET>
Subject: Re: Gender Benders and successful players...
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 09:40:12 -0400
Once upon a time, The Great Gonzo said

[about playing a female character]
= out nicely. Anyway, I thought it was fun. Luckly, never any romantic
= entaglements...

OK. I really don't want to start a flame war, but this comment sets me
on edge. Why "luckily"? We're talking about a game here; a game of
role-playing and acting. A romantic entanglement between a male
character and a female character (or between female and female, or
male and male) is just that, a relationship between characters; it
implies nothing about the players, except possibly that they're
exceptional or mediocre actors, depending on how they handle
it. Forgive me if I've misread you, but there seems to be some
implicit homophobia in your comment.

Gay men and lesbians who game most often are expected to roleplay
characters with romantic entanglements with characters of the opposite
gender, and rarely have a problem with doing it well or believably, or
call it "unlucky." In fact, in RPGA-sanctioned games, the merest hint
of a gay orientation is dreadfully taboo, while opposite-gender
characters have crushes and explicit romantic desires written into
their descriptions; a terrible double-standard that T$R rapidly
embraces. So if I want to play in an RPGA tournament, I have to play a
straight character. Oddly, I've won about three out of four
tournaments I've played in anyway. I don't like it one bit, but it
doesn't make me incapable of making people believe I am the role I'm
given. (T$R says it doesn't allow any "sex" or "perversion" in its
RPGA-sanctioned games... I've played characters whose descriptions
indicated they wanted to bear another character's children, or who
were priests of a love god who were supposed to seduce other
characters *in RPGA games* and this was not considered sex. I've seen
a number of games re-written by the RPGA to edit out the mention that
another character was gay or lesbian, even though there was no
specific attraction or actions mentioned! Obviously just referring to
a character as gay is either sexual or perverse, while encouraging
straight characters to have babies with each other somehow avoids sex.
Gee, they must have some interesting spells for that, but not a lot of
fun, in those fantasy worlds. :/ )

Oh, and Robert, you said you'd never met a male who could play a woman
without reducing her to an effeminate wimp or a slut. Well, say hello.
My GM allows only me to play opposite-gender characters, because he
says he honestly can't tell them from real, 3-dimensional
women. Modesty aside, I also play the best non-human characters,
because I play them as psychologically alien, not as humans with
pointy ears. After all, if even the people closest to me for years
thought I was a straight man (not a role I put my best efforts into),
it's not much of a stretch to play another role as alien to me as that
one is.

And Deb Decker, IMO, gay men *do* play more believable female
characters, *in general* and *in my personal experience* (YMMV). I
don't suggest it's anything genetic or inherent, but perhaps just a
willingness to look past what many straight men want women to be and
see them as they really are. There are exceptions, of course.

--
Thom Watson thom@******.digex.net
"What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?"
--Ursula K. LeGuin
Message no. 3
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender Benders and successful players...
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 13:08:31 GMT
>OK. I really don't want to start a flame war, but this comment sets me
>on edge. Why "luckily"? We're talking about a game here; a game of

I agree; a game of role-playing. Although the character could have
regarded herself as lucky for not falling for someone; romantic entanglements
just are good to have as a Shadowrunner.

>t. Forgive me if I've misread you, but there seems to be some
>implicit homophobia in your comment.

I think you grossly misread the statement. I didn't see anything homophobic
at all. Unless you assume that someone is homophobic because they are
uncomftorable playing an orientation that isn't there's, which you gripe
about below.

>Gay men and lesbians who game most often are expected to roleplay
>characters with romantic entanglements with characters of the opposite
>gender

I'm sorry to hear it. But then, I've never played or run an RPGA game. If
someone wanted to play a homosexual in my campaign, 'skay by me.

>Oh, and Robert, you said you'd never met a male who could play a woman
>without reducing her to an effeminate wimp or a slut. Well, say hello.

I can see the cyberego gently being stroked by an arm linked mysteriously
to you account. :)

>My GM allows only me to play opposite-gender characters, because he
>says he honestly can't tell them from real, 3-dimensional

I'm glad your GM finds your role-playing commendable. But I cannot
abide anyone who limits the choice of play; why doesn't he try to help
other interested players figure out how to better their "performance"?
THAT's a fascist GM.

>Modesty aside

You aleady did that.

>I also play the best non-human characters,

\ /
Here's your medal. -->o

>thought I was a straight man (not a role I put my best efforts into),
>it's not much of a stretch to play another role as alien to me as that
>one is.

Equating homosexuality with another race. *SHEESH* Now there's a stereotype
for you.

>And Deb Decker, IMO, gay men *do* play more believable female
>characters, *in general* and *in my personal experience* (YMMV). I

Great. In my experience, the last post indicated that straight men could
not play women well at all and that is bullshit.

>don't suggest it's anything genetic or inherent, but perhaps just a
>willingness to look past what many straight men want women to be and
>see them as they really are. There are exceptions, of course.

And I believe I am one of them, though I can't say Jaez is a great example
because she IS such a stereotypical Valeey Girl (which is most definitely
NOT what I seek in romantic company). Actually, some of my best friends have
been women, with no romance to the relationship at all. I think that counts
for something along the lines of seeing women as people and not meat.

J Roberson
Message no. 4
From: Thom Watson <thom@******.DIGEX.NET>
Subject: Re: Gender Benders and successful players...
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 20:03:29 -0400
Once upon a time, The Deb Decker said

= >OK. I really don't want to start a flame war, but this comment sets me
= >on edge. Why "luckily"? We're talking about a game here; a game of
=
= I agree; a game of role-playing. Although the character could have
= regarded herself as lucky for not falling for someone; romantic entanglements
= just are good to have as a Shadowrunner.

I assume you mean "aren't good." That's certainly a reasonable reading
of the original sentence on it's own, one I admittedly missed. I
think, though, the context in which it was placed lends it a little
less innocence; I could be wrong, certainly.

= I think you grossly misread the statement. I didn't see anything homophobic
= at all. Unless you assume that someone is homophobic because they are
= uncomftorable playing an orientation that isn't there's, which you gripe
= about below.

Actually, I'm not uncomfortable playing an orientation which isn't
mine, and I don't think I implied that. In fact, I do so quite
frequently, and often by choice. I even said that I would not
consider it "unlucky" to have a character with a romantic entanglement
with a gender to which I, a player, am not oriented. I am, however,
angry that in certain circumstances I am forced to play an orientation
that isn't mine, if I wish to play at all.

= >Oh, and Robert, you said you'd never met a male who could play a woman
= >without reducing her to an effeminate wimp or a slut. Well, say hello.
=
= I can see the cyberego gently being stroked by an arm linked mysteriously
= to you account. :)

:) Heh. I spent an awful lot of years downplaying my strengths and
being a doormat. Just because I know what some of those strengths are
now, and am proud of them, doesn't mean that I'm not equally aware of
some of my weaknesses. They just weren't germane to this conversation.

= I'm glad your GM finds your role-playing commendable. But I cannot
= abide anyone who limits the choice of play; why doesn't he try to help
= other interested players figure out how to better their "performance"?
= THAT's a fascist GM.

This is one of the hazards of electronic communication. I can't
possibly convey in a few words the nuances and details and history of
my gaming group. I disagree with the assessment that my GM is fascist;
that assessment, though, is understandable based on the little
information I've given you about him, me or our group. Basically,
we've all agreed that some strictures like this are worthwhile to keep
out bad stereotypes that we as a group feel detract from our enjoyment
of the game.

I also question your assessment that you "cannot abide anyone who
limits the choice of play." Really, now, it's not that farfetched that
someone might want to play a character that for some reason makes some
or all of the other players extremely uncomfortable or superfluous. Is it
unreasonable to suggest that some guidelines for a mutually enjoyable
gaming experience does not constitute fascism? Examples range from the
oft encountered to the grotesquely overstated :) Would you allow a
magically active, vampire adept in your Shadowrun campaign, if
everyone else played a normal character? Would you accept a gamer's
portrayal of a black superhero as an eye-rolling, watermelon-eating,
step and fetch it? We just draw our lines in different places, I suspect.

In fact, though, we are going to be playtesting some material in which
all the characters will be female, so we will be dealing with our
individual performances and handling of stereotypes to some
degree. However, this is not something we would likely do in our
regular campaign.

= >thought I was a straight man (not a role I put my best efforts into),
= >it's not much of a stretch to play another role as alien to me as that
= >one is.
=
= Equating homosexuality with another race. *SHEESH* Now there's a stereotype
= for you.

Actually, I equated the *playing* of *hetero*sexuality, for me, with
the *playing* of another race. And what I was really talking about was
the comparable difficulty of understanding and protraying believably
mindsets different from my--male, human and homosexual--norm. And
since when is the equation of homosexuality with nonhuman races a
stereotype? Honestly, it's one with which I'm quite unfamiliar.

= >And Deb Decker, IMO, gay men *do* play more believable female
= >characters, *in general* and *in my personal experience* (YMMV). I
=
= Great. In my experience, the last post indicated that straight men could
= not play women well at all and that is bullshit.

All generalizations are bullshit.

:)

You're right, though, an implication that *no* straight man can play a
woman well is bullshit. I'm certainly right with you in agreement on
this one. As I said, there are exceptions. But in my experience, which
may not at all be representative of gamers as a whole, the straight
men overwhelmingly have tended to play on the worst stereotypes of
women. Even more surprising, this happened among men from whom I would
*not* have expected such acting out; in their daily lives they seem to
be respectful and understanding of women in a multitude of roles, not
only as sluts or weaklings. *shrug* Humans are unfathomable.

= >don't suggest it's anything genetic or inherent, but perhaps just a
= >willingness to look past what many straight men want women to be and
= >see them as they really are. There are exceptions, of course.
=
= And I believe I am one of them, though I can't say Jaez is a great example
= because she IS such a stereotypical Valeey Girl (which is most definitely
= NOT what I seek in romantic company). Actually, some of my best friends have
= been women, with no romance to the relationship at all. I think that counts
= for something along the lines of seeing women as people and not meat.

Well, then maybe you deserve one of those medals you so graciously
awarded me. :)

Seriously, I did say that not all straight men are like this. I
haven't implied anything about your or any individual man's particular
treatment of or thoughts about women. Some of *my* best friends have
been straight men, but I wouldn't want my husband to marry one. :)

=====

And to the gentleman who sent me e-mail telling me to "find a
woman"... if I needed such advice, it seems unlikely you'd be able to
help. Find a brain, ok?

--
Thom Watson thom@******.digex.net
"What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?"
--Ursula K. LeGuin
Message no. 5
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender Benders and successful players...
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 20:59:56 GMT
>Really, now, it's not that farfetched that
>someone might want to play a character that for some reason makes some
>or all of the other players extremely uncomfortable or superfluous. Is it
>unreasonable to suggest that some guidelines for a mutually enjoyable
>gaming experience does not constitute fascism? Examples range from the
>oft encountered to the grotesquely overstated :) Would you allow a
>magically active, vampire adept in your Shadowrun campaign, if
>everyone else played a normal character? Would you accept a gamer's
>portrayal of a black superhero as an eye-rolling, watermelon-eating,
>step and fetch it? We just draw our lines in different places, I suspect.

Vampires are illegal as player characters.
No, I wouldn't mind a magical vampire adept in a campaign, provided the
proper balancing act was done by the GM and player. While it is true that
such characters can be easily abused, they can also be role-played well.

For instance, in the upcoming GURPS Ravenloft game I'm in, I play a Vampyre
prince-no powers, just bloodlust. and a lot of psych disadvantages about
becoming a true vampire. Another PC is a werewolf; another is rather like the
classic Frankenstein monster. But they are all balanced, and the campaign is
set up that the 'combat advantages' are outweighed by the role-playing
disadvantages.

It's one thing to play a character type poorly; quite another to play an
offensive stereotype. Also, I believe that most gaming groups are made up of
friends, and that peer pressure will keep someone from playing a truly offensive
character. Call it Free-Market Gaming.

>In fact, though, we are going to be playtesting some material in which
>all the characters will be female, so we will be dealing with our
>individual performances and handling of stereotypes to some
>degree.

Good.

>However, this is not something we would likely do in our
>regular campaign.

I still think it's unfair that other players be barred from playing
females in your regular game.


>since when is the equation of homosexuality with nonhuman races a
>stereotype? Honestly, it's one with which I'm quite unfamiliar.

This is NOT a stereotype endorsed by me. I recalled Tasteless Jokes middle
school gamers made when they saw the R Talsorian blurb about "if your
players can't handle the grim future of cyberpunk, tell them to go play the
game with the happy elves" and someone made a comment about the gay and happy
fairy folk. Apologies for a crude and obscure reference.

As I was thinking about it, I realized that in most adventure games, the
little things that crop up that do mark the sexes as different are left out
as extra baggage. In Shadowrun: Mr Johnson doesn't care about your sex or race
as long as you get the job done. Contacts--depends on how you play it, but
assume your contacts won't penalize you for what you are (unless, I guess, you
were an Ork sammie with Nachtmachen and Humanis contacts). In a firefight-
bullets don't check your pants before killing you. And in the Matrix and Astral
Space, you can be whatever you want.

I think some men may overplay their female characters in an attempt to remind
everyone that they were different. I know that's how I felt sometimes playing
Jaez, because most situations, her gender didn't matter--which is the way it
should be. Thinking back to the GURPS game I mentioned, I felt like that
character was not as overplayed because I didn't have to force everyone to
remember her sex. . .there were enough role-playing encounters that made it
important to compensate.

Me, personally I like those people who are both or neither in Le Guin's books.
=====

>And to the gentleman who sent me e-mail telling me to "find a
>woman"... if I needed such advice, it seems unlikely you'd be able to
>help. Find a brain, ok?

Reminds of a story a middle-aged gay Orthodox Jew recently told me: There was
this wonderful old woman who would come up week after week at Synagogue and
describe her niece, or granddaughter or other young female relative in an
attempt at matchmaking. He declined again and again until she finally asked
him what kind of girl he was looking for and he said "actually, if you had
a nice young nephew. . ."


J Roberson

Further Reading

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