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From:	Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Thu, 10 Aug 1995 19:22:26 +01.0

Message no. 1 On 9 Aug 95 at 14:12, Ian Smith wrote:

> >I've noticed that a majority of the gamers I've encountered >are
> >male.
>
> I've noticed this too. It's true not only in the gaming world, but
> hobbies that seem to be related: comic bookdom, scifi ( although a
> lot less so ), and the audience of action movies all seem to be more
> male oriented than female. Why do you all think that is? ( I'm
> crossing my fingers that most responses will be reasonably
> intelligent . . . ) :D

I'll try to sound at least at bit intelligent :). First to say, this is very
difficult to answer completely. There are a lot of factors which are
important, but if I would list them all this post would be the size
of a syllabus :). In fact I got in front of me a syllabus which
partially deals with this question. To bad it's in Dutch, so the
title wouldn't say much :). So here's a simplified version:

Most gamers are still male because of the differences in upbringing
of children. Still most boys are raised to be independent and are
encouraged to explore and to participate in physical actions like
sports. Boys get recognition for their achiefments and are much
more pushed to be successful in society. A boy is judged more by his
actions than by his interactions (hence the perference for action
movies which mostly show an individual male winning by using his wits
and physical powers and by not be frightened by new developments)

Girls are mostly raised to care for others and interact with others
(this still counts for most of "our" generation, it's changing slowly).
Girls are not required to do the things boys are stimulated to do.
Some activities are even strongly disapproved of.

The encouragement to explore leads to a greater involvement in the
hobbies you listed above (you could also add astronomy, technology,
etc.). Creating a new world is in fact the ultimate form of exploration,
and so is participating in a role-playing game.
Also the theme of most role-playing games is very action oriented (SR
is an excellent example of that) which attracts boys. Girls are more
attracted to social oriented activities (the WW series are more
femine in their approach, more geared towards the acting and social
interactions).

Conclusion: it is a result of unbringing, culture and the environment
in which someone grows up and it's changing.

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
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From:	Ian Smith <KildTheCat@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 1995 02:48:08 -0400

Message no. 2 >I'll try to sound at least at bit intelligent :). First to say, this >is
very
>difficult to answer completely. There are a lot of factors >which are
>important, but if I would list them all this post would be the >size
>of a syllabus :). In fact I got in front of me a syllabus which
>partially deals with this question. To bad it's in Dutch, so the
>title wouldn't say much :). So here's a simplified version:
>
>Most gamers are still male because of the differences in >upbringing
>of children. Still most boys are raised to be independent and >are
>encouraged to explore and to participate in physical actions >like
>sports. Boys get recognition for their achiefments and are >much
>more pushed to be successful in society. A boy is judged more >by his
>actions than by his interactions (hence the perference for >action
>movies which mostly show an individual male winning by >using his wits
>and physical powers and by not be frightened by new >developments)
>
>Girls are mostly raised to care for others and interact with >others
>(this still counts for most of "our" generation, it's changing >slowly).
>Girls are not required to do the things boys are stimulated to >do.
>Some activities are even strongly disapproved of.

Mr. Cugel, you succeeded in being very thought provoking and thank you . . .
I'm sorry if that intelligent remark sounded too snobby - I was just worried
this thread would bog down into something quite ugly. . .

Mr. Cugel, you sound just like a brilliant sociologist named Dr. Deborah
Tannen. I've read one of her books, " You just don't understand " which
elaborates quite well on the basic point you just made above ( as well as
others ).

SO, do you think that by playing up on the interactive and 'team play' side
of role playing we could attract more female gamers?

From:	Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 1995 10:28:09 -0700

Message no. 3 >>In fact I got in front of me a syllabus which
>partially deals with this question. To bad it's in Dutch, so the
>title wouldn't say much :). So here's a simplified version:
(deleted)<<

This was very good and goes a long way towards the point I was trying
to make about things that are seen as "cool" i.e. acceptable behavior
for females. Thank you very much for posting it!
Yes, we can struggle against the strictures society and our
upbringing put on us, but it's not an easy process, by any means...
heck, that's (insert your age here) years of conditioning at work. :)

-E

From:	Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 1995 20:39:18 +01.0

Message no. 4 On 11 Aug 95 at 2:48, Ian Smith wrote:

> Mr. Cugel, you succeeded in being very thought provoking and thank
> you . . . I'm sorry if that intelligent remark sounded too snobby -
> I was just worried this thread would bog down into something quite
> ugly. . .

Why thank you Mr. Smith. I hope that your fears have proved unfounded
so far :)

> Mr. Cugel, you sound just like a brilliant sociologist named Dr.
> Deborah Tannen. I've read one of her books, " You just don't
> understand " which elaborates quite well on the basic point you just
> made above ( as well as others ).

The syllabus could be citing one of her articles, I don't really
know. The university makes horrible copies and the part with the
credits is unreadable :)

> SO, do you think that by playing up on the interactive and 'team
> play' side of role playing we could attract more female gamers?

I think to do that you first have to take away the prejudices
Roleplaying has nowadays. Or else you can have the most beautiful
gamesystem but they would all go "ahhww, roleplaying is for nerds!"
And yes, changing that could attract more females to the hobby.
I played for a long time only with males and the first time a woman
was in our group is was a shock for them. Normally they would go like
"two sec guards? Thake em out with a burst" Now, after they did that,
she asked them why they didn't tranquilized the guards, because they
were only doing their jobs, and must have had families. Blank stares
from everyone :).
Nowadays they sometimes even think about the consequences their
deeds may have for other people, just like any normal human would do :)
Needless to say, I'm all for more women in Roleplaying. Anyone
knowing some living in the eastern parts of the Netherlands? :)

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in
your home. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 1995 22:56:13 +0200

Message no. 5 >Normally they would go like
>"two sec guards? Thake em out with a burst" Now, after they did that,
>she asked them why they didn't tranquilized the guards, because they
>were only doing their jobs, and must have had families. Blank stares
>from everyone :).

Is that the same player whose (female) elf decker decapitated A.C. with her
monowhip after he (A.C.) killed the girl they were trying to find?

>Needless to say, I'm all for more women in Roleplaying. Anyone
>knowing some living in the eastern parts of the Netherlands? :)

Better yet: the south-west :) _You_'ve got all the players you need...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'll live through this even if it kills me
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Guru :)

From:	Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Sat, 12 Aug 1995 00:03:05 +01.0

Message no. 6 On 11 Aug 95 at 10:28, Eve Forward wrote:

> This was very good and goes a long way towards the point I was
> trying to make about things that are seen as "cool" i.e. acceptable
> behavior for females. Thank you very much for posting it!

Gee, thank you (blush :). Never thought I was going to use this for
Shadowrun someday :). I hope that the translation was be halfway
acceptable, because the terminology was far from my usually used
English.

> Yes, we can struggle against the strictures society and our
> upbringing put on us, but it's not an easy process, by any means...
> heck, that's (insert your age here) years of conditioning at
>work. :)

Yes, alas it is. You don't even know how much you pick up on
specific male-female behaviour when you're young, both from your
parents and from society. And the worse part is without you
recognizing it as such, you're going to pass it on to your children
also. That's why I was so sceptical about your statement that
discrimination on gender-basis would have dissapeared in 2055.

But it is one of the better bits from SR that they try to break the
pattern. Although much in SR still shows the 20th century bias
anyway :). Look at the woman on the cover for instance. I know it's
Elmore and he works a lot for A%&%, but how many characters do you
know that run around half naked when running in the shadows?! Or do
you know a picture of a fully cybered female samurai, or one where female
bodyguards guard a male in any of the books? Only Janet Aulisio does not
fall in this trap.
As far as I could see Tim Bradstreet hasn't even included one female in his
SR-art which is kinda pitty because his Vampire females are all very
good.. Just shows that there is a lot of this stuff hidden everywhere.

Now that I look at it there is a lot more than I expected. Just two
more examples: the picture at the start of HB-by the sword; who's the
one shivering in the cold? Yep the only female, while the guys try to
look cool (BTW she's also the one with the rediculous skin thight
aerobics suit, so that kinda explains it :).
And look at the role of the main-female NPC in HB, talk about your
"typical" female behaviour :/

Call me a hair-splitter if you want, but these things emphasize the
traditional role of the woman, and that's /not/ good IMHO.

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in
your home. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
Geek Code v3.0:
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From:	Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Sat, 12 Aug 1995 00:49:32 +01.0

Message no. 7 On 11 Aug 95 at 22:56, Gurth wrote:

> >Normally they would go like
> >"two sec guards? Thake em out with a burst" Now, after they did
> >that, she asked them why they didn't tranquilized the guards,
> >because they were only doing their jobs, and must have had
> >families. Blank stares from everyone :).

> Is that the same player whose (female) elf decker decapitated A.C.
> with her monowhip after he (A.C.) killed the girl they were trying
> to find?

He kinda asked for it, didn't he? :) I mean killing her Trol team
mate by shooting her in the face with a shotgun and blowing up
the mage and his brother with a rocket launcher, I think if you do
these things even the UN might opt to attack instead of talk :)

Nope, it was the girlfriend form one of my players who went along for
one session. The girl you're refering to is just as worse as the rest
( :) or :( , I don't know...)

> >Needless to say, I'm all for more women in Roleplaying. Anyone
> >knowing some living in the eastern parts of the Netherlands? :)

> Better yet: the south-west :) _You_'ve got all the players you
> need...

Anyone????!!! :)

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in
your home. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
Geek Code v3.0:
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PE- Y+ PGP t+(--) 5? X++ R+(++) tv b+++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r y+

From:	"Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Fri, 18 Aug 1995 14:13:01 -0700

Message no. 8 >
> Yes, alas it is. You don't even know how much you pick up on
> specific male-female behaviour when you're young, both from your
> parents and from society. And the worse part is without you
> recognizing it as such, you're going to pass it on to your children
> also. That's why I was so sceptical about your statement that
> discrimination on gender-basis would have dissapeared in 2055.
>
> Now that I look at it there is a lot more than I expected. Just two
> more examples: the picture at the start of HB-by the sword; who's the
> one shivering in the cold? Yep the only female, while the guys try to
> look cool (BTW she's also the one with the rediculous skin thight
> aerobics suit, so that kinda explains it :).
> And look at the role of the main-female NPC in HB, talk about your
> "typical" female behaviour :/
>
> Call me a hair-splitter if you want, but these things emphasize the
> traditional role of the woman, and that's /not/ good IMHO.
>

Ther seems to be some bias against 'Tradition' and 'Society' here. Is
there a good reason for this? I know that anyone, even me can find
specific problems in societally accepted norms and traditional values, but
I am sensing a blanket condemnation, this is NOT healthy.

Words from the Arch-Conservative
-Steve

From:	Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Fri, 18 Aug 1995 18:54:19 -0700

Message no. 9 >>>Ther seems to be some bias against 'Tradition' and 'Society' here. Is
there a good reason for this? I know that anyone, even me can find
specific problems in societally accepted norms and traditional values, but
I am sensing a blanket condemnation, this is NOT healthy.<<<

Well, do you equate a "disagreement with" with a "bias against?"
Because
that's all -I'm- sensing here. I don't think the poster is saying: "All
traditions in our society are bad", which would be a blanket condemnation.
I think he's saying "I feel that the "traditional", "typical"
role of
women in our society is not necessarily a good thing." and if that's his
opinion, I feel it is a perfectly valid one, and furthermore, one shared
by me.
I think labelling yourself as a conservative is opening up another
can of worms we don't need to deal with. This isn't (or at least, it
shouldn't be) a conservative vs. WHATEVER else you decide to brand those
who don't agree with you. It's just a discussion of gender in gaming, and
in particular why more women don't game. The fact is that there are more
males involved in gaming than females. What are your thoughts on -that-
matter?

-E

From:	"S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Sat, 19 Aug 1995 00:53:33 -0400

Message no. 10 Steve "Arch-Conservative" Bugge writes:
> [Eve Forward writes:]
> > Call me a hair-splitter if you want, but these things emphasize the
> > traditional role of the woman, and that's /not/ good IMHO.
>
> Ther seems to be some bias against 'Tradition' and 'Society' here. Is
> there a good reason for this? I know that anyone, even me can find
> specific problems in societally accepted norms and traditional values, but
> I am sensing a blanket condemnation, this is NOT healthy.

Hey, Rush, if you want to keep this hot, at least keep it relevant to
gaming and Shadowrun. I'm interested in this topic, but I won't argue
it on this list unless you want to talk about "societally accepted norms
and traditional values" in 2055.

FASA works real hard to emphasize that there's not much gender
discrimination on the streets in Shadowrun.. Women are neither more nor
less deadly than men. Individual women might be, but that's another story.
Given FASA's professed gameview, I think Eve has a valid objection. Why
show women as being more vulnerable, or less clothed, than men in
situations where it tactically makes no sense?

TANGENT:

In my gaming experience I've noticed a trend. When male players create a
female character, they tend to create a sex object. Form-fitting armor,
flawless physical features, often a devastatingly forward personality. They
put their own fantasies into the character, and often don't develop her any
further. Women players sometimes do this with female characters, too, but
not as often. Sometimes they do it under pressure from the male majority in
a group; every once in awhile they do it for healthier reasons, like self-
image or pure enjoyment. Rarely have I seen women roll up a male character
and make him a stereotyped beefcake; never have I seen men do it (including
gay men.) What does this imply to me? That there are expectations of a
female character that are not expected of a male character.

Don't think I'm being universal about this. In the campaign I'm running
now, there are six female PC's, three played by men, and only one of them
is the skintight-armor knockout type. That character, an Elven PhysAd, has
a well-developed history, and is nobody's sex object. (Nobody who stays
conscious long enough to enjoy it, at least.) I'm proud that my group has
stayed mostly free of the testosterone-driven sexual mentality that
permeates much of role-playing. But give immature players, particularly
munchkin players, half a chance and they'll fill a game with their own wet
dreams and sexual stereotypes. (I'm listening to a bunch of idiots like
that right now in the row behind me. Jeez, Macintosh clusters really annoy
me..)

Is this bad? Matter of opinion. Does it belong in a dark-future cyberpunk
game like Shadowrun? I don't think it does. To keep the game mature, you
have to keep the sexuality mature. That means creating real characters,
instead of sexual outlets.

...
This has been a thought tangent. It relates vaguely to the artwork in FASA
products, but not very much. We now return you to your regularly scheduled
heated debate. >8->

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | Ask me about the
Please don't blame anyone else. | Invisible Pink Unicorns...

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Sat, 19 Aug 1995 12:17:13 +0200

Message no. 11 >Why
>show women as being more vulnerable, or less clothed, than men in
>situations where it tactically makes no sense?

I remember reading letters and things on fantasy game art (in White Wolf
Magazine I think it was), where the main reason why women are portrayed as
wearing little clothing is because the art directors think that's the way it
should be, in order to sell more books.

>Sometimes they do it under pressure from the male majority in
>a group

IMHO people who create a character because of what other people want or
think are people who tend to go along with others anyway. As an example, I
was introducing two people to SR a few days ago (these were two male
players, BTW), and when I asked "What race do you want to play?" one said
something that boiled down to "An elf of course" (they were both **&*-ers),
which lead me to respond "*sigh* Yet another one... Why no ork or troll or
whatever?" This prompted the other player to _immediately_ take a troll --
we (I and a third player) suspected later, when we were talking about it,
that he'd taken an elf as well had I not said anything about my feelings
toward people who take elves "_because_they're_so_fucking_cool_..."
To bring this back round to gender in roleplaying (it had to happen sometime
:), I think pretty much the same would be the case with many people who make
stereotyped female (or male) characters -- the attitude of the rest of the
group influences them so much that they don't dare to come out for their own
opinion about the matter.

>This has been a thought tangent. It relates vaguely to the artwork in FASA
>products, but not very much.

Well, we of course have Elmore's depiction of Sally Tsung on the front of
the main rulebook... Though Larry Elmore is one of the artists who responded
on the subject of the "women in fantasy artwork" debate I mentioned earlier,
explaining his reasons for and ideas behind the artwork.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
don't know what I want but I know how to get it
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Guru :)

From:	Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Gender in gaming
Date:	Sat, 19 Aug 1995 18:12:35 +01.0

Message no. 12 On 18 Aug 95 at 14:13, Stephen M. Bugge wrote:

> > Call me a hair-splitter if you want, but these things emphasize
> > the traditional role of the woman, and that's /not/ good IMHO.

> Ther seems to be some bias against 'Tradition' and 'Society' here.
> Is there a good reason for this? I know that anyone, even me can
> find specific problems in societally accepted norms and traditional
> values, but I am sensing a blanket condemnation, this is NOT
> healthy.

It's far from a blanket condemnation, you didn't see the line in my
post if you think that. I'm just saying that to give women and men a
equal chances and postitions, a lot have to be changed in our society
and traditions, which kind of forces people into socially acceptable
roles (not only women but also men).

> Words from the Arch-Conservative

Ah, well, to counter this: words from the Arch--Social-Liberal :)
Again this post is "IMHO"

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in
your home. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
Geek Code v3.0:
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PE- Y+ PGP t+(--) 5? X++ R+(++) tv b+++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r y+

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