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Message no. 1
From: "Thomas Holmes" <Thomas.A.Holmes-1@**.umn.edu>
Subject: General Reaction
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:58:49
Greetings. I just recently subscribed to this mailing list and have a
couple of coments I'd like to throw in about my initial reactions.
1) Lot of player bashing. I don't mean this to sound too negative but the
majority of these posts seemed aimed at penalising players. I personally
quit playing shadowrun with several groups for this very reason. I am
playing the main character in an interesting sci-fi story, and I expect my
character to dominate and succeed so long as I play reasonably well. As a
source of entertainment I /do not/ want to spend long hours calculating
intricate details or role-playing non-significant roles. I don't see the
role of the referee as being a source of frustration and character
bashing (perhaps too strong of terms, but they say what I feel). I also
don't see the referee as 'judging' or 'creating balance' or these other
terms I see repeatedly.
2) Related to 1) above, shadowrunners are /not/ good guys in any sense of
the word, under any ideology. They're proffessional (or unproffessional)
criminals. I think of 'Resevoir Dogs' 'Pulp Fiction' 'Harley Davidson and
the Marlbarrow Man' 'True Lies' 'The Proffessional' 'The Killer' 'Le Fem
Nikita' etc. etc. etc. The main characters in these stories are very
interesting, but they are /not/ heroic, or good guys. As a player I expect
to be playing one these kinds of characters. I might have some kind of
personal code, but I /do/ break faces and kill people to get what I want,
if I have to. Criminal all the way. Any referee who tries running things
otherwise I think is going to have to very explicit in his themes, desires,
and closely supervise character creation. Which is fine, but not ShadowRun.
3) I run games quite a bit, and have never had any problems with characters
being too tough. I've played with some really twinkish players, who
agonised for hours over point efficiency to be super profficient killers,
but they never unbalanced or through my game out of whack. The best
explanation I have to offer to those having problems is to /expect/ the
players to come out on top when they play. Then you can be happy when they
do. I personally have a reputation as a 'tough' gm, but I've always let the
players exploit the rules fully, and I rarely use any tech or magic with my
opposition characters. Players usually die from poor planning or execution
of a run, and tech and magic both rarely affect the outcome either way on a
botched run. A lot of either does severely inhibit where the players can
go, and thus what kind of runs they can do/accept.

Now that I've vented my spleen:

Hi again everybody! Interested in what you're saying, glad this forum's
around.

Thomas
Message no. 2
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: General Reaction
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:50:15 GMT
Thomas Holmes writes

I'm taking this as a chance to discuss the threads in general, some
comments/ replies will more agree than disagree with the quote above
them. (overcoming the limitations of the media, we have been hacving
problems i noticed with folks misunderstanding the meaning of
messages. Also it is my experience that trying to judge the quality of
any game you are not playing or at least have not seen in action is
difficult at best as comments are generally made out of context)

> Greetings. I just recently subscribed to this mailing list and have a
> couple of coments I'd like to throw in about my initial reactions.
> 1) Lot of player bashing. I don't mean this to sound too negative but the
> majority of these posts seemed aimed at penalising players.
Thats the recent threads. The entrenchment has stayed less than
'certain other discussions' (some folks would prefer remain unamed)

> I personally
> quit playing shadowrun with several groups for this very reason. I am
> playing the main character in an interesting sci-fi story, and I expect my
> character to dominate and succeed so long as I play reasonably well. As a
> source of entertainment I /do not/ want to spend long hours calculating
> intricate details or role-playing non-significant roles.
Understandable, at the end of the day the most important thing is
'did you enjoy it' not 'which side burnt the rulebook'. However one
or two cases of players abusing this (trying to totally outshine the
other PC's in the process) can cause a lot of discussion even if most
of the folks involved don't actually have too much trouble with the
subject being discussed.
Some folks on the list think magicians are too powerful, other not.
Opinions are probably based on the quality of the folks playing the
magicians, magic is often easier to get creative with however my bad
guys have generally suffered more from when players that know what to
do with flash grenades have been playing. One case was nearly made
bug food twice, till he dropped a flash grenade ground zero (his eyes
are protected by other parts of his body), bugs having no flare comp
suddenly get +6 all target numbers, and become totally useless. Don't
try this sort of stun with manaball spells :), you'll kill yourself :)

> I don't see the
> role of the referee as being a source of frustration and character
> bashing (perhaps too strong of terms, but they say what I feel). I also
> don't see the referee as 'judging' or 'creating balance' or these other
> terms I see repeatedly.
no the 'GM's' job should be to keep everyone entertained but that can
involve a bit of discussion so all players enjoy the game not just
the best rules abuser. However tyring to get ahead by all means
available is in the spirit of SR, if you did a job where getting shot
at was a fact of life i think you would pull all the stops to make it
as safe as possible.

> 2) Related to 1) above, shadowrunners are /not/ good guys in any sense of
> the word, under any ideology. They're proffessional (or unproffessional)
> criminals.
Yes though it is noteable that FASA prefer to 'encourage' PC's to be
better than the crowd. Some of this is probably image, they have to
exist in the real world so being seen encouraging folks to play the
bad guys is not good for them even if it is in character for the game.

> I think of 'Resevoir Dogs' 'Pulp Fiction' 'Harley Davidson and
> the Marlbarrow Man' 'True Lies' 'The Proffessional' 'The Killer' 'Le Fem
> Nikita' etc. etc. etc. The main characters in these stories are very
> interesting, but they are /not/ heroic, or good guys. As a player I expect
> to be playing one these kinds of characters. I might have some kind of
> personal code, but I /do/ break faces and kill people to get what I want,
> if I have to. Criminal all the way. Any referee who tries running things
> otherwise I think is going to have to very explicit in his themes, desires,
> and closely supervise character creation. Which is fine, but not ShadowRun.
To players generally 'give the GM feedback!'. Most problems over
style arise because folks won't discuss things.

> 3)
ageed. [lop!]

> Hi again everybody! Interested in what you're saying, glad this forum's
> around.
>
Mark
Message no. 3
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: General Reaction
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 11:41:59 -0400
At 02:58 PM 8/6/96, you wrote:
>Greetings. I just recently subscribed to this mailing list and have a
>couple of coments I'd like to throw in about my initial reactions.
[snip]

>2) Related to 1) above, shadowrunners are /not/ good guys in any sense of
>the word, under any ideology. They're proffessional (or unproffessional)
>criminals. I think of 'Resevoir Dogs' 'Pulp Fiction' 'Harley Davidson and
>the Marlbarrow Man' 'True Lies' 'The Proffessional' 'The Killer' 'Le Fem
>Nikita' etc. etc. etc. The main characters in these stories are very
>interesting, but they are /not/ heroic, or good guys. As a player I expect
>to be playing one these kinds of characters. I might have some kind of
>personal code, but I /do/ break faces and kill people to get what I want,
>if I have to. Criminal all the way. Any referee who tries running things
>otherwise I think is going to have to very explicit in his themes, desires,
>and closely supervise character creation. Which is fine, but not ShadowRun.

As a scarred veteran of the list [well scarred anyway] there's one reaction
to your reaction I'd like to throw back. Be carefull about defining what is
'not shadowrun'. YOUR definition of shadowrun is that runners are criminals.
Another group might play a runners are paramilitary ops teams game. MY
definition is that any 'house rule' variant is not shadowrun, only
by-the-book campaigns are shadowrun. My definition and thirty-five cents
will get me a cup of coffee downstairs...

If you've seen the 'bad karma' thread over the last few days you'll see that
the flavors vary tremendously. Definitive statements about what is and is
not shadowrun has a real potential for getting you toasted.

Shift to a safer topic, like a discussion of whether or not GMs are all
munchkins by another name :) Terry


Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 4
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: General Reaction
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:46:49 -0600 (MDT)
Terry L. Amburgey wrote:
|
|Shift to a safer topic, like a discussion of whether or not GMs are all
|munchkins by another name :) Terry

Was there ever any doubt? :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 5
From: "Paolo Marcucci" <paolo@*********.it>
Subject: Re: General Reaction
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 17:51:42 +0200
At 09.46 07/08/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Terry L. Amburgey wrote:
>|
>|Shift to a safer topic, like a discussion of whether or not GMs are all
>|munchkins by another name :) Terry
>
>Was there ever any doubt? :)

I know at least one GM that can ground through immortal quickenings.

<duck>

:) Paolo
____________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider Trieste, Italy
http://www.interware.it/ Tel. +39-40-411400
Message no. 6
From: Rick Jones <rick@******.COM>
Subject: Re: General Reaction
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 10:57:48 -0500 (CDT)
Terry L. Amburgey wrote:
> >2) Related to 1) above, shadowrunners are /not/ good guys in any sense of
> >the word, under any ideology. They're proffessional (or unproffessional)
>
> As a scarred veteran of the list [well scarred anyway] there's one reaction
> to your reaction I'd like to throw back. Be carefull about defining what is
> 'not shadowrun'. YOUR definition of shadowrun is that runners are criminals.

Exactly. While many Shadowrunners are criminals for hire, many are not.
My players are much closer to Dirk Montgomery and Sam Verner than
Ghost-Who-Walks-Inside or Sally Tsung[1]. They have done quasi-legal (and
outright illegal) things, but for the most part, they do detective or
mercenary style jobs. They've only done one Shadowrun on a corp.

[1] 1 licensed PI, an underworld bodyguard, an ambulance driver, a former
corp mage, a street shaman, and a decker.

--
Rick Jones For three years now, you've been pulling everyone's
rick@******.com strings, getting us to do all the work and you haven't
Meyrick@***.com done a damn thing but stand there and look cryptic!
http://www-ece.rice.edu/~rickj/ --Sheridan to Kosh, Babylon 5
Message no. 7
From: Bert.VandeMerckt@****.be (Bert Van de Merckt)
Subject: Re: General Reaction
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 17:23:39 GMT
On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 17:51:42 +0200, you wrote:
>I know at least one GM that can ground through immortal quickenings.
>
><duck>

lol
and hows that for some useless bandwithwasting?

**----------------------------------------------------------**
So let me get this straight. You want to fly on a magic carpet
to see the King of the Potato People and plead with him for
your freedom, and you're telling me you're completely sane?
----- Rimmer, in Red Dwarf -----
bert.vandemerckt@****.be ==== http://www.ping.be/~ping8611
The Official Anne Clark Web Page:
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611/anneclark/anneclark.html
**----------------------------------------------------------**
Message no. 8
From: "Terry L. Amburgey" <xanth@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: General Reaction
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 13:48:15 -0400
At 05:23 PM 8/7/96 GMT, you wrote:

>lol
>and hows that for some useless bandwithwasting?
>
>**----------------------------------------------------------**
>So let me get this straight. You want to fly on a magic carpet
> to see the King of the Potato People and plead with him for
> your freedom, and you're telling me you're completely sane?
> ----- Rimmer, in Red Dwarf -----
> bert.vandemerckt@****.be ==== http://www.ping.be/~ping8611
> The Official Anne Clark Web Page:
> http://www.ping.be/~ping8611/anneclark/anneclark.html
>**----------------------------------------------------------**

Uh oh, the bandwidth police are here again. I hope they didn't bring the sig
file meter :) Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Email: xanth@***.uky.edu
Associate Professor Phone: (606) 257-7726
College of Business and Economics Fax: (606) 257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0034
Message no. 9
From: "Ferri Pagano" <Ferri_Pagano_at_STRM__Amsterdam1@******.com>
Subject: Re[2]: General Reaction
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 96 09:22:28 EST
----------------------------reply----------------------

Terry L. Amburgey wrote:
|
|Shift to a safer topic, like a discussion of whether or not GMs are all
|munchkins by another name :) Terry

Was there ever any doubt? :)

-David
---------------------------------------------------------
HeY! I resent that!. GM's are NOT munchkins!!!

Munchkin: A pc that tries to buy as many rule-bending advantages as possible
within his budget limit.



GM's Don't have a budget limit :)

Ferri

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