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Message no. 1
From: satinner@*********.net (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:23:39 -0800 (PST)
> Dear Ghost, anything to generate list traffic.

I'd be glad to.;-)

1. SR Duels?
I have some. I like them as toys.
The game itself is horrible, yet novel.
Personally I wish Wizkids had just made Shadowrun
Clix.
SR has had a HORRIBLE history with spin-off products.
DMZ was awful. The Ral Partha minis were never widely
available (YMMV). The TCG was GREAT, but for whatever
reason FASA killed it at its peak. The SNES amd
Genesis games were fun, but really missed the boat as
far as being faithful to the game, and Microsloth
never botherd to come through with the SR: Assassin
vaporware.

DISCUSS: What other Spin-off's could be done, and how
could they succeed?
Personally, I'd like to see a miniatures based
boardgame. Something along the lines of GW's Space
Hulk, but with Runners vs. CorpSec, or Runners vs.
Bugs.

2. Fanpro's SR Character Dossier
Great stuff. Good design, excellent price point.
DISCUSS: Wouldn't this have been better as an
electronic document/PDF? Heck, put it on a CD, sell it
for $5 and I'll grab it! I'd love to be able to crank
out multiple copies for my players to use.
I notice that no permission to photcopy is given
either. Which forces me to either get all my players
to buy one for each PC. (Which I'm sure would help
Fanpro, but realistically just isn't gonna happen!) or
become a pirate and make copies. (Which I'll wager
will be available on Kazaa in a week or less.)

3. In my time away from the list, I served a three
year stint as a Storyteller for a One World by Night
networked Live-Action Vampire game. I can take or
leave Vampire and the WoD, but the experience was a
lot of fun. Being able to play a character in multiple
cities with the same continuity in a LARP environment
is highly enjoyable!
DISCUSS: Shadowrun LARP - Can it be done?
I've seen several rules sets for such games, I
remember SLARP, and I currently have my own Laws of
the Shadows document I'm finishing up.
The problem I'm finding is what kind of games can you
really run for SR in a LARP environment?
Vampire lends itself to LARP because of the political
scheming, and the entire "courtly" structure the
Kindred embrace (pun intended.)
SR doesn't have that.
You could run an all corp game, and have the office
politics be the backdrop, but then you're not really
playing "Classic SR" anymore.
I'm toying with the idea of setting the game at
Dante's Inferno, and making it more about the meets,
street rep etc. than about the actual runs.
There will still be Shadowruns of course, but the bulk
of the game will be hitting the Shadow community at
the club, doing legwork, and cutting deals - much more
appropriate for a social/larp game.
Comments? Suggestions?

4. My Ultimate Shadowrun Manifesto!
Just kidding ... we're not that desperate for list
traffic yet, are we? ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
Evil GM
Message no. 2
From: baishen@**********.com (Bai Shen)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 23:40:57 -0500
>DISCUSS: What other Spin-off's could be done, and how
>could they succeed?
>Personally, I'd like to see a miniatures based
>boardgame. Something along the lines of GW's Space
>Hulk, but with Runners vs. CorpSec, or Runners vs.
>Bugs.
>
>
I was hoping for SR clix as well. Mostly as a source of figures for the
rpg. :)

Bai Shen
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:33:45 +0100
According to Steven A. Tinner, on Saturday 28 February 2004 23:23 the word
on the street was...

> 1. SR Duels?
> I have some. I like them as toys.

Except that those damn pins in their hands keep come loose and/or break off
within about day of the figure coming out of the packaging... Not to
mention that some of the equipment is just silly, like the troll mage's
guns and the dwarf rigger's drones.

> The game itself is horrible, yet novel.

I've only played it once or twice, but I have mixed feelings about it. Some
of it's OK, other parts just don't cut it, IMHO.

> SR has had a HORRIBLE history with spin-off products.
> DMZ was awful.

That's a game that should have started from scratch, instead of being based
on BattleTroops.

> 2. Fanpro's SR Character Dossier
> Great stuff. Good design, excellent price point.
> DISCUSS: Wouldn't this have been better as an
> electronic document/PDF? Heck, put it on a CD, sell it
> for $5 and I'll grab it! I'd love to be able to crank
> out multiple copies for my players to use.
> I notice that no permission to photcopy is given
> either.

We had a short thread about that just last week or so. As I said back then,
it's my understanding (but I'm no lawyer) that most countries' copyright
laws allow you to make and/or own copies for your personal use, provided
you own the real thing. In this case, that'd mean you can photocopy (or
scan and print) your own copy of the character dossier as many times as
you like, and give copies to any of your players -- provided each of them
also owns the real thing.

> 4. My Ultimate Shadowrun Manifesto!
> Just kidding ... we're not that desperate for list
> traffic yet, are we? ;-)

You've _obviously_ been away for too long :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be more truth than fable?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 4
From: satinner@*********.net (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 04:31:39 -0800 (PST)
> > 1. SR Duels?
> > I have some. I like them as toys.
>
> Except that those damn pins in their hands keep come
> loose and/or break off
> within about day of the figure coming out of the
> packaging... Not to
> mention that some of the equipment is just silly,
> like the troll mage's
> guns and the dwarf rigger's drones.

Yeah, the pins were a poor design choice.
My understanding is that Plan B Toys, the company that
did the sculpting uses that system for all its'
figures.
And as you pointed out with the various sized
equipment, it's the only way to make any piece of gear
usable by any figure.

> > 4. My Ultimate Shadowrun Manifesto!
> > Just kidding ... we're not that desperate for list
> > traffic yet, are we? ;-)
>
> You've _obviously_ been away for too long :(

Uh-oh ... things are that bad?
I know a lot of the traffic moved to Bulldrek, but has
it really been that slow?

Steven A. Tinner
Evil GM
Message no. 5
From: graht1@*******.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:12:15 -0700
>From: "Steven A. Tinner" <satinner@*********.net>
>
> > Dear Ghost, anything to generate list traffic.
>
>I'd be glad to.;-)
>
>1. SR Duels?
>I have some. I like them as toys.
>The game itself is horrible, yet novel.

That's a shame. I just got hooked on HeroClix and was eyeing SR Duels. Ah
well.

>DISCUSS: What other Spin-off's could be done, and how
>could they succeed?

Bring back the CCG.

>Personally, I'd like to see a miniatures based
>boardgame. Something along the lines of GW's Space
>Hulk, but with Runners vs. CorpSec, or Runners vs.
>Bugs.

Hmmm... I never did finish that version of Shadowrun Monopoly I toyed with.
Since Monopoly has come out for just about everything under the sun they'd
probably do a Shadowrun version if Wizkids approached them about it :)

>DISCUSS: Shadowrun LARP - Can it be done?

I played IFGS (www.ifgs.org) for about 5 years in the late 80s/early 90s,
and it's still going strong. LARPS can work.

Shadowrun has a few issues.

Most encounters take place inside, and indoor playing locations are not easy
to secure (please don't try to stage a mock combat at the local Village Inn
;).

Shadowrun is mostly ranged combat and that is *not* easy to manage in a
LARP. It's one thing to be shouting damage and listening to damage from a
person swinging a foam sword at you. It's quite another to try to keep
track of damage being shouted back and forth in ranged combat (the most
confusing IFGS combat I was ever in was when we where attacking a group of 8
archer NPCs).

And finally, getting players off the couch to actually play :)

>You could run an all corp game, and have the office
>politics be the backdrop, but then you're not really
>playing "Classic SR" anymore.
>I'm toying with the idea of setting the game at
>Dante's Inferno, and making it more about the meets,
>street rep etc. than about the actual runs.
>There will still be Shadowruns of course, but the bulk
>of the game will be hitting the Shadow community at
>the club, doing legwork, and cutting deals - much more
>appropriate for a social/larp game.
>Comments? Suggestions?

I played in a cyberpunk LARP that was basically a competitave treasure hunt.
Each team was given a list of clues to locations where computer disks were
hidden. The game had a 24 hour time limit. The goal was to find four
sections of the code the client wanted (a copy of Disk A, Disk B, Disk C,
and Disk D). During the course of the game our "contacts" (NPCs run by the
GMs) gave us additional clues. We had a blast driving around the city
trying to match the clues with major landmarks and trying to find the 5 1/4"
disks. When we found a disk we would have to drive back to the client's
safe house to have the disk tested to see which disk it was.

Combat was handled with squirt guns (the "it's obvious it's a toy" type
squirt guns). Unfortunately we never encountered another team :/

Anyway, you could easily adapt it for one team of players, and have the GMs
play the role of the competing team(s) from time to time if you wanted to
introduce combat.

-Graht

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 6
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:33:58 +0000
In article <Sea1-F72i8KnxxHOiB000013d9c@*******.com>, David Buehrer
<graht1@*******.com> writes
>
>Shadowrun is mostly ranged combat and that is *not* easy to manage in a
>LARP.

Airsoft, boyo. There's a certain satisfaction in coming out of cover
with a Desert Eagle in one hand and a double-stack .45 in the other, and
'killing' two enemy and driving the rest to panicked take-cover mode.
And that's just the pistols...

For larger weapons, see

http://www.combatsouth.co.uk/CS%20Urban/images/P1181537.jpg

for an example: I'm at far left with the Steyr AUG.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 7
From: flakjacket@***********.com (Simon Nixon)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:57:12 +0000 (GMT)
Tinner wrote: >

> > > 4. My Ultimate Shadowrun Manifesto!
> > > Just kidding ... we're not that desperate for
> list
> > > traffic yet, are we? ;-)
> >
> > You've _obviously_ been away for too long :(
>
> Uh-oh ... things are that bad?
> I know a lot of the traffic moved to Bulldrek, but
> has
> it really been that slow?

Bulldrek? You're probably thinking of the dumpshock
forums. Bulldrek does have an RPG section, but nothing
Shadowrun dedicated. Bulldrek's it's own little world
of insanity. :)

But yeah, kind of. It certainly isn't up to the levels
of its heyday. The forums have drawn off a /lot/ of
traffic, and the 3rd Ed got rid of a lot of traffic
from clairfying a lot of the weird little rules. ;)
Message no. 8
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:22:38 +0100
> But yeah, kind of. It certainly isn't up to the levels
> of its heyday. The forums have drawn off a /lot/ of
> traffic, and the 3rd Ed got rid of a lot of traffic
> from clairfying a lot of the weird little rules. ;)

Oh, it still has its own unclarified rules... Take sustained spells,
for example. Once the spell is cast, does the caster require LOS to his
target to sustain it, or is it possible to be in a building and
invisible while the mage is hiding in a van outside (and not astrally
projecting)?

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 9
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:48:14 -0500
At 03:57 PM 2/29/2004, Simon Nixon wrote:
>Tinner wrote: >
>
> > > > 4. My Ultimate Shadowrun Manifesto!
> > > > Just kidding ... we're not that desperate for
> > list
> > > > traffic yet, are we? ;-)
> > >
> > > You've _obviously_ been away for too long :(
> >
> > Uh-oh ... things are that bad?
> > I know a lot of the traffic moved to Bulldrek, but
> > has
> > it really been that slow?
>
>Bulldrek? You're probably thinking of the dumpshock
>forums. Bulldrek does have an RPG section, but nothing
>Shadowrun dedicated. Bulldrek's it's own little world
>of insanity. :)
Brineshrimp is one of the off and on players for our area (And for Tinner),
so that's probably why he thought of Bulldrek.

After all, George and Bulldrek kinda go hand in hand (Or hand in poo, as
the case may be :))

>But yeah, kind of. It certainly isn't up to the levels
>of its heyday. The forums have drawn off a /lot/ of
>traffic, and the 3rd Ed got rid of a lot of traffic
>from clairfying a lot of the weird little rules. ;)

Unfortunately, the abilty to look back at old messages in an active thread
is a nice feature that the message boards afford, and they're just a lot
more "in" than mailing lists any more. Sad, since I love email.

Bull
Message no. 10
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 11:08:45 +0100
According to Steven A. Tinner, on Sunday 29 February 2004 13:31 the word on
the street was...

> Yeah, the pins were a poor design choice.

What they _should_ have done was use steel pins, preferably with a larger
head (T-shaped, IOW) that can be embedded in the plastic of the hands.
That way they wouldn't come loose or break off unless you really do your
best :)

> And as you pointed out with the various sized
> equipment, it's the only way to make any piece of gear
> usable by any figure.

What I actually meant was that the equipment just looks silly. The troll's
guns I mentioned look he got them during his time as a WH40K space marine,
and the rigger's drone is based on about the absolute worst-looking drone
pictured in _any_ SR book.

> I know a lot of the traffic moved to Bulldrek, but has
> it really been that slow?

Unfortunately, yes. I still long for the times of about five years ago when
even a slow day had more traffic than your return has caused these past
few days.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be more truth than fable?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: chipeloi@***.nl (chipeloi@***.nl)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 12:40:30 +0100
On 28 Feb 2004 at 14:23, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> > Dear Ghost, anything to generate list traffic.
>
> I'd be glad to.;-)
>
> 1. SR Duels?
> I have some. I like them as toys.
> The game itself is horrible, yet novel.

I like it, as Gurth pointed out the desing is bad.


> Personally I wish Wizkids had just made Shadowrun
> Clix.

That would be fun,

The TCG was GREAT, but for whatever
> reason FASA killed it at its peak.

There are a number of rumors about that one, none seem to be the right one.

The SNES amd
> Genesis games were fun, but really missed the boat as
> far as being faithful to the game, and Microsloth
> never botherd to come through with the SR: Assassin
> vaporware.

Now that was sad, i was hoping it would spark more intrest in the game.

> DISCUSS: What other Spin-off's could be done, and how
> could they succeed?
> Personally, I'd like to see a miniatures based
> boardgame. Something along the lines of GW's Space
> Hulk, but with Runners vs. CorpSec, or Runners vs.
> Bugs.

Naa more something like nercomunda, war machine or even magekinght: dungeon
Small units, good rules and loads of abilaty's, to manny units and it takes to long.


> 3. In my time away from the list, I served a three
> year stint as a Storyteller for a One World by Night
> networked Live-Action Vampire game. I can take or
> leave Vampire and the WoD, but the experience was a
> lot of fun. Being able to play a character in multiple
> cities with the same continuity in a LARP environment
> is highly enjoyable!
> DISCUSS: Shadowrun LARP - Can it be done?

The long range weapon discussion, might work with paintball/lasersystem.

> I> I'm toying with the idea of setting the game at
> Dante's Inferno, and making it more about the meets,
> street rep etc. than about the actual runs.
> There will still be Shadowruns of course, but the bulk
> of the game will be hitting the Shadow community at
> the club, doing legwork, and cutting deals - much more
> appropriate for a social/larp game.
> Comments? Suggestions?

You will need to have a big group and aditional NPC's .
It might work but it would take a group of veteran larpers to pull of .

> 4. My Ultimate Shadowrun Manifesto!
> Just kidding ... we're not that desperate for list
> traffic yet, are we? ;-)

sure let us hear it, might be fun

Chipeloi
Message no. 12
From: chipeloi@***.nl (chipeloi@***.nl)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 12:52:09 +0100
On 29 Feb 2004 at 18:33, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In article <Sea1-F72i8KnxxHOiB000013d9c@*******.com>, David Buehrer
> <graht1@*******.com> writes
> >
> >Shadowrun is mostly ranged combat and that is *not* easy to manage in a
> >LARP.
>
> Airsoft, boyo. There's a certain satisfaction in coming out of cover
> with a Desert Eagle in one hand and a double-stack .45 in the other, and
> 'killing' two enemy and driving the rest to panicked take-cover mode.
> And that's just the pistols...
>
> For larger weapons, see
>
> http://www.combatsouth.co.uk/CS%20Urban/images/P1181537.jpg
>
> for an example: I'm at far left with the Steyr AUG.

since your near portsmouth
are you going to the Conseption Con?
I'm going to be in torquay for a few day's
Anyone near there who want to meet?
Message no. 13
From: graht1@*******.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 09:51:17 -0700
>From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>
>
>In article <Sea1-F72i8KnxxHOiB000013d9c@*******.com>, David Buehrer
><graht1@*******.com> writes
>>
>>Shadowrun is mostly ranged combat and that is *not* easy to manage in a
>>LARP.
>
>Airsoft, boyo. There's a certain satisfaction in coming out of cover with a
>Desert Eagle in one hand and a double-stack .45 in the other, and 'killing'
>two enemy and driving the rest to panicked take-cover mode. And that's just
>the pistols...

One of the requirements of LARPing is that it has to be open to everyone,
i.e. cheap. Paintball equipment isn't :/ There's also the problem of the
protective gear interfering with costuming. And you can't use them in
public areas (might hit a nonplayer, or be mistaken for a real weapon by
someone who then calls the police...).

The successful LARPs are successful because they're open to all comers,
require little investment, and have simple rule systems. Paintball kind of
goes against that because it requires money and requires skill.

Now, if everyone you game with is also a paintballer (wrong term, sorry,
can't think of the right one) then it would work for your group/friends.
But I think Tinner was looking for something more global :)

-Graht

_________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: satinner@*********.net (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:54:28 -0800 (PST)
So list traffic has died down from its heyday.
What can we do about that?
Can we step up list promotion somehow? Some kind of
recruitment campaign?
It might be possible to submit a story about the list
to Inquest (c'mon, they'll publish anything!) To try
to drum up some interest.
We could try to have a review put up on
GamingReport.com. Call it a "re-launch" of the mailing
list or some such thing.

Any other ideas?

Steven A. Tinner
Evil GM
Message no. 15
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 08:58:28 -0800
On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:54:28 -0800 (PST)
"Steven A. Tinner" <satinner@*********.net> wrote:
> So list traffic has died down from its heyday.
> > Any other ideas?
>
> Steven A. Tinner
> Evil GM

We could have Bull come out with some of his traffic generating remarks as he
used to do regularly...

Or I could talk about my campaing, except that I have a player on the list.
And after it's all over, it's no fun to rehash.

--Anders
Message no. 16
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:35:54 +0000
In article <Sea1-F106FpGKFywUxg00017f6c@*******.com>, David Buehrer
<graht1@*******.com> writes
>>From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>
>>Airsoft, boyo. There's a certain satisfaction in coming out of cover
>>with a Desert Eagle in one hand and a double-stack .45 in the other,
>>and 'killing' two enemy and driving the rest to panicked take-cover
>>mode. And that's just the pistols...
>
>One of the requirements of LARPing is that it has to be open to
>everyone, i.e. cheap. Paintball equipment isn't :/ There's also the
>problem of the protective gear interfering with costuming.

A pair of safety glasses shouldn't cramp your style too much, which is
all you need for airsoft. They come in a range of styles and can even be
had tinted (iridium finish costs more)

>And you can't use them in public areas (might hit a nonplayer, or be
>mistaken for a real weapon by someone who then calls the police...).

This is a problem, to be true.

>Now, if everyone you game with is also a paintballer (wrong term,
>sorry, can't think of the right one) then it would work for your
>group/friends. But I think Tinner was looking for something more
>global :)

Perhaps, but it's still fun shooting at moving targets that can return
fire :)
--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 17
From: graht1@*******.com (David Buehrer)
Subject: Generating List Traffic
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 12:00:21 -0700
>From: "Steven A. Tinner" <satinner@*********.net>
>
>So list traffic has died down from its heyday.
>What can we do about that?
>Can we step up list promotion somehow? Some kind of
>recruitment campaign?
>It might be possible to submit a story about the list
>to Inquest (c'mon, they'll publish anything!) To try
>to drum up some interest.
>We could try to have a review put up on
>GamingReport.com. Call it a "re-launch" of the mailing
>list or some such thing.
>
>Any other ideas?

Before SR3 the majority of list traffic was about rules issues. For better
or worse SR3 was very well written and a lot of the rules issues where taken
care of. So, all we need to do to generate list traffic is to ask all of
the freelancers to start making mistakes, or at the very least write
ambiguously. Then we just sit back and wait for the next batch of
supplements to come out and viola ;)

-Graht

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.