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Message no. 1
From: Dave Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Gene-Therapy
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:35:30 +0100
Hi everyone :)

My first question for you is, can Gene-Therapy repair attribute loss. Not
magic attribute of cause but body, strength, quickness, intelligence, and
willpower, for my mage has lossed points it each.

Also can Sorcery Adepts quicken spells if they have a detection spell
which allows them Astrally percieve spells.


- Feanor (on his third cloned leg, second new eye, first new right arm, and
third set of ears. Critically wounded 9 times. Resently recovered from a
very nastly dose of the Plague. He's very luckly to be alive, but my GM's
such a Pussy-cat.)
Message no. 2
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene-Therapy
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 13:53:46 -0700
>-Feanor (on his third cloned leg, second new eye, first new right arm, and

If you keep that up, you're going to end up like that philosophical axe
(or hammer, or whatever it was); if you replace the head, then replace
the handle, is it still the same axe?

"I'm not half the man I used to be..."

:)
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Gene-Therapy
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:00:03 +1000
Dave Woods writes:

> Hi everyone :)

Greetings Dave.

> My first question for you is, can Gene-Therapy repair attribute loss. Not
> magic attribute of cause but body, strength, quickness, intelligence, and
> willpower, for my mage has lossed points it each.

I guess you are referring to the Attribute loses caused by the Ascetism
Ordeal for initiation. These are for physical attributes only, so I am as
yet unsure of where the Intelligence and Willpower loses have come from
[maybe you stuffed your Body roll when you copped Deadly wounds?]. But for
the physical Attribute loses, I'd say that gene therapy could remedy the
problem. The ordeal involves some physically taxing and dangerous activity,
which results in a loss of the body's condition. Gene therapy can heal
bodywide cellular damage of a similar nature, so I'd say if could fix this
problem. OTOH, the ordeal is magical in nature, and so may not be able to be
fixed using tecnological means (depends on your view of exactly what it
involves - it could well be a case of WYTIWYG more than anything). But I'd
allow it to be done (as long as you used the more expansive reconstructive
healing type therapy anyway). As for fixing the Mental stats up, I wouldn't
think so. Gene therapy fixes physical problems, and Intelligence is not a
physical Attribute, it is to do with your mind, not something easily
modified by technology. But then again, things such as Cerebral Boosters and
the like exists, so perhaps the powers that be can create detailed enough
mechanisms to fix even Intelligence loss, but I wouldn't allow it.

Continuing along this line of thought, it would seem possible to use gene
therapy to fix Essence loss too. Or maybe not, since Essence is a measure of
your aural wholeness. But, it would be possible to use gene therapy to
remove cybersystems which are not able to be removed by surgery (like wired
reflexes), so you could then implant other cyber in the "gap".

> Also can Sorcery Adepts quicken spells if they have a detection spell
> which allows them Astrally percieve spells.

No, because there should be no spell which allows someone who does not have
access to the astral to perceive to it. If you want access to the astral,
you must assign a higher priority to Magic during character creation, a mere
spell should not replace a magical ability such as Astral Perception. Think
of how handy a "Perceive the Astral" spell would be - sammies could have it,
any magician would be better off using the spell than perceiving, since they
would not be vulnerable to astral attack, and so no.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 4
From: Dave Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gene-Therapy
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 16:22:42 +0100
On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Dave Woods writes:
>
> > Hi everyone :)
>
> Greetings Dave.
>
> > My first question for you is, can Gene-Therapy repair attribute loss. Not
> > magic attribute of cause but body, strength, quickness, intelligence, and
> > willpower, for my mage has lossed points it each.
>
> I guess you are referring to the Attribute loses caused by the Ascetism
> Ordeal for initiation. These are for physical attributes only, so I am as
> yet unsure of where the Intelligence and Willpower loses have come from
> [maybe you stuffed your Body roll when you copped Deadly wounds?].

All the Attribute loses were from failed Body rolls. But with 2 dice what
can you expect. The character was in a coma for 8 weeks and the
willpower and intelligent were lossed through brain damage.

Can Gene-Therapy correct Brain-damage? IMHO it might since brain cells could
be cloned. This would repair the damage but the Attribute would have to
be brought up to its previous level.

i.e. Feanor

Attribute Level Mod. Level Mod. Racial Maximum

Int 6 5 5
Wil 6 5 5

At the moment if I wanted to regain a willpower of 6 it would cost 11
karma. Same for Int. since it is over the racial maximum. Would it be
reasonable for Gene-therapy to enable a character to regain his former
capacity if not his former abilities.

>
> > Also can Sorcery Adepts quicken spells if they have a detection spell
> > which allows them Astrally percieve spells.
>
> No, because there should be no spell which allows someone who does not have
> access to the astral to perceive to it. If you want access to the astral,
> you must assign a higher priority to Magic during character creation, a mere
> spell should not replace a magical ability such as Astral Perception.

Excepted. But how many GM's allow a Sorcery Adept to buy astral perception
like Phy Adepts?


- Feanor (We can rebuild him)
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Gene-Therapy
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 17:29:07 +1000
Dave Woods writes:

> Can Gene-Therapy correct Brain-damage? IMHO it might since brain cells could
> be cloned. This would repair the damage but the Attribute would have to
> be brought up to its previous level.

Hmm, I'm not too sure on that one. Gene therapy will allow standard
(meta)human afflictions (like genetic diseases and such which all have the
same cause and effect) to be fixed, and will repair general body damage
(such as due to drug use), but I think bringing somebody back up to their
former level of ability is a little tricky. They'd need, at the very least,
a highly detailed "map" of the person's brain prior to the damage. Even
then, who says Intelligence (and other Mental stats) are a purely physical
thing? Nobody currently, and I very much doubt anyone ever will, knows just
what the human consiouness is.

> Excepted. But how many GM's allow a Sorcery Adept to buy astral perception
> like Phy Adepts?

Well, I don't. How's that for a start? :-) Besides, how would you manage it?
Assign a karma cost? Bad move, then it becomes possible for a mundane to
spend lots of karma and become magical, by the same reasoning.

But I can see it is a reasonable enough house rule, after all, they already
have some degree of access to the astral, since they can lob spells.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Gene-Therapy
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:29:03 +0200
>Can Gene-Therapy correct Brain-damage? IMHO it might since brain cells could
>be cloned. This would repair the damage but the Attribute would have to
>be brought up to its previous level.

I thought ST said the brain can't yet be cloned reliably. That would rule
out repairing brain damage with gene therapy...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat wilt ik nou effe kwijt!
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 7
From: Matt Hufstetler <gt2778a@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gene-Therapy
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:31:25 -0400
> > Excepted. But how many GM's allow a Sorcery Adept to buy astral perception
> > like Phy Adepts?
>
> Well, I don't. How's that for a start? :-) Besides, how would you manage it?
> Assign a karma cost? Bad move, then it becomes possible for a mundane to
> spend lots of karma and become magical, by the same reasoning.
>
> But I can see it is a reasonable enough house rule, after all, they already
> have some degree of access to the astral, since they can lob spells.

Why not just have the Sorcery Adept research the spell which allows them
to see into the astral? That seems the logical choice. What else are
they going to do?????


Matt 'Comatose Raspberry' Hufstetler
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt2778a
Internet: gt2778a@*****.gatech.edu
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Gene-Therapy
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 21:37:40 +1000
Gurth writes:

> I thought ST said the brain can't yet be cloned reliably. That would rule
> out repairing brain damage with gene therapy...

Not that I can find. And look at things like the Cerebral Boosters, Mnemonic
Enhancers, Pain Editors, Reflex Recorders etc etc which are all nervous
system/brain modifications/improvements. I'd say the tech is there for brain
modification, so gene therapy could work for the brain too.

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Gene Therapy
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 00:36:16 PST
So, I'm working through my 3rd game of Metal Gear Solid, right?
Many of the issues brought up in that game- besides glorious violence-
is genomic experiments. I start thinking about this stuff, and I break
out ye olde copy of Shadowtech and read up on Gene Therapy.
Kinda vague, I thought. At least, from a sci-fi point of view.
Gene Therapy, for those that don't know (or those that do and are
all too eager to correct me <g>), is basically encoding a gene onto an
existing gene in order to change a person or thing's original DNA code.
In 'Tech, it basically gives prices for using gene therapy to replace an
arm, heal a wound, or cure a disease (especially ones on the genetic
level). It also leaves room for the GM to come up with some other uses.
Given the definition of Gene Therapy, as well as assuming DNA is at
least partially mapped out in order for this to be legally put into
practice, do you folks think it would be possible to use Gene Therapy to
transform a (meta)human of one race into another?
Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?
Granted, it will be a cold day in hades before I allow any of
this into my game. But it's interesting stuff to think about and maybe
even the foundation for some run/plot ideas...

-Damon Harper
"Tell me, and I forget. Show me, and I remember.
But let me do, and I understand."
-Confucious
________________________________________________________
<nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 10
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 09:13:07 EST
In a message dated 1/1/1999 3:36:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nomad74@*******.COM writes:

> Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
> something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
> a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
> same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
> Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?
> Granted, it will be a cold day in hades before I allow any of
> this into my game. But it's interesting stuff to think about and maybe
> even the foundation for some run/plot ideas...

Personally, I would see the gene therapy as being what is required for
cultured bioware.

-Herc
Message no. 11
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:29:54 -0500
At 12:36 AM 1/1/99 PST, Damon Harper wrote:

<snip>

> Given the definition of Gene Therapy, as well as assuming DNA is at
>least partially mapped out in order for this to be legally put into
>practice, do you folks think it would be possible to use Gene Therapy to
>transform a (meta)human of one race into another?

Hard to say. Metahuman genes express due to magic, and it's been a
long-standing point that geneticists don't really understand how the genome
interacts with mana. Finding the ones that make for an ork as opposed to
an elf, for example, might be tricky. OTOH, in some of the early novels
it's been shown that it might be possible to induce, prevent or alter
goblinization with magical or genetic techniques. However, that was a long
time ago, and I don't know that FASA really wants to go there anymore.

> Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
>something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
>a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
>same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
>Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?

That was the thrust of some of the background material in ShadowTech.
Basically, the geneticist (KAM) was complaining how bioware was too limited
in scope; enhancing some bodily systems at the expense of putting stress on
the whole. She was advocating research into whole-genome modifications.
It's also where we got the first glimpse into Project Infinity, apparently
a (working?) immortality project that was mentioned later in (IIRC)
Cyberpirates.


Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to
Marietta, GA | hope for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 12
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 11:50:30 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:36 AM 1/1/99 -0800, Damon wrote:
> Given the definition of Gene Therapy, as well as assuming DNA is
at
>least partially mapped out in order for this to be legally put into
>practice, do you folks think it would be possible to use Gene Therapy
to
>transform a (meta)human of one race into another?

- From the information that's been presented so far, 2050s' geneticists
have not mapped out the so called "metagene" the various sequences of
genetic code responsible for the expression of the traits of
metahumanity. In the genetics science chapter of Shadowtech, a passage
makes mention that "correction of ... UGE-related conditions, for
instance, would be extremely extensive, and would therefore be
protracted and difficult by definition." The same passage also carries
a disclaimer that it is also just theoretical speculation at the
moment.

I suggest that you look at the section about "The Metagene" on pages
68 and 69 of Shadowtech. It explains much more clearly the dificulties
in genetically engineering the metatraits, than I could. I also would
like to point out the artwork on p. 72 of Shadowtech, titled "Omega
Sequence #48 G". While the text never comes out and states what the
artwork is supposed to be, IMO it is implied that it is a picture of
one of the early experiments in mapping/manipuating the genes that
express the metatraits.

Of course, Shadowtech is aproximately 8 years old in the timeline, so
Man & Machine may very well have updates for the SOTA of meta-genetics
in 2060.

> Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me
ask
>something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a
replacement-albeit
>a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
>same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
>Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?

In my opinion, a very strong no. The new organs that bioware introduce
into the body are so highly specialized, that whether they're
implanted or coded directly into the gene sequence they will still
exact a price by drawing on the body's resources, thereby decreasing
the general health and well-being of that body. The analogy I use is
this: say someone comes up with a single slice bread toaster that will
fit in the 5.25in drive bay of a computer tower. No matter if you
install it yourself, or you buy a computer that was designed by the
manufacturer to have a toaster, both computers are going to be prone
to overheating while you're toasting. Toasters just put out a lot of
heat.

Again, I'd direct you back to the Shadowtech book, this time, the
shadowtalk in the Bionetics science chapter. "It's the same
narrow-focus syndrome we first saw with the emergence of cyberware.
Everybody is working on designing and producing better organs -- but
only one system at a time. No one's keeping the entire body as a unit
in mind while developing." Even if you could code a person's genome to
grow a bioware organ naturally, it is still going to exact a cost from
the health of the body.

Then there is the fact that later shadowtalk in the same chapter seems
to shoot down the idea of using gene therapy to get bioware. Check the
shadowtalk on pages 10/11, starting with the one that reads "I
understand bioware is sort of a precursor to full-scale human
gengineering."

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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Message no. 13
From: Joshua Mumme <grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:22:07 -0600
<SNIP>
> Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
>something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
>a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
>same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
>Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?
> Granted, it will be a cold day in hades before I allow any of
>this into my game. But it's interesting stuff to think about and maybe
>even the foundation for some run/plot ideas...
Actually the way I understood this to work is that they generate the organ
be it biotech arm leg eye whatever off of your original genetic structure.
They can not acctually dismantle and rebuild the geneic structure of an
existing organ or organisim. If I read that right at least.
>
>-Damon Harper
> "Tell me, and I forget. Show me, and I remember.
> But let me do, and I understand."
> -Confucious

Grimlakin
Message no. 14
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:30:33 -0500
> Gene Therapy, for those that don't know (or those that do and are
> all too eager to correct me <g>), is basically encoding a gene onto an
> existing gene in order to change a person or thing's original DNA code.
> In 'Tech, it basically gives prices for using gene therapy to replace an
> arm, heal a wound, or cure a disease (especially ones on the genetic
> level). It also leaves room for the GM to come up with some other uses.
> Given the definition of Gene Therapy, as well as assuming DNA is at
> least partially mapped out in order for this to be legally put into
> practice, do you folks think it would be possible to use Gene Therapy to
> transform a (meta)human of one race into another?

I've done something similiar for one of my chars for a game I'm playing
in. Basically he was subjected to all sorts of drugs, gene therapy,
torture, etc. It basically ended up turning him into an albino.

> Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
> something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
> a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
> same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
> Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?

I wouldn't go for this simply because of some of the comments made about
the "host body" in the bioware section. In effect, this is exactly what
they do for bioware, but since it's going to be implanted, the host body
is of no conseuence.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 15
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:40:32 EST
In a message dated 1/1/1999 10:31:59 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
starjammer@**********.COM writes:

> > Given the definition of Gene Therapy, as well as assuming DNA is at
> >least partially mapped out in order for this to be legally put into
> >practice, do you folks think it would be possible to use Gene Therapy to
> >transform a (meta)human of one race into another?
>
> Hard to say. Metahuman genes express due to magic, and it's been a
> long-standing point that geneticists don't really understand how the genome
> interacts with mana. Finding the ones that make for an ork as opposed to
> an elf, for example, might be tricky. OTOH, in some of the early novels
> it's been shown that it might be possible to induce, prevent or alter
> goblinization with magical or genetic techniques. However, that was a long
> time ago, and I don't know that FASA really wants to go there anymore.

Here in the home game, we allow someone to change their race from one to
another using a very EXPENSIVE variation on gene cleansing, although this
allows someone to change their race, we normally do not allow the person to
gain anything in the way the character's physical attributes change, any
mental attribute mods associated with a particular race are not applied onto
the character in question.

Okay, getting to the physical attributes part, sure a character has just
become something else, probably larger, or even just become something far more
human looking in appearance and everything else. But do the stats change at
the time? No, what happens is that the racial maximums for the character
increase, and if the character wants to benefit from them, they still need to
pay the karma necessary to raise the attributes up from what they were before
they underwent the genetic manipulation into somerace else.

> > Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
> >something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
> >a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
> >same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
> >Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?
>
> That was the thrust of some of the background material in ShadowTech.
> Basically, the geneticist (KAM) was complaining how bioware was too limited
> in scope; enhancing some bodily systems at the expense of putting stress on
> the whole. She was advocating research into whole-genome modifications.
> It's also where we got the first glimpse into Project Infinity, apparently
> a (working?) immortality project that was mentioned later in (IIRC)
> Cyberpirates.

I don't remember this project Infinity, which sounds like a variation on the
experiments involving the Immortality gene going on in the Tirs and elsewhere.

Sure, enhancing the body overall at the same time is a well thought out
concept, except for two very large hurdles, cost and time. Time is the one
thing this project has working against themselves. As the body is changed and
manipulated by the enhancement of some part of the body, problems will crop up
elsewhere, and before being able to continue on the problems must be solved.
As a result of the Time problem, the cost for having a full-scale body genetic
manipulation will be very cost prohibitive, only available to the extremely
rich (read the people in charge of the megas and some others possibly).

Besides, the cost for a full-scale body genetic manipulation is also going to
cost a lot in terms of the Body Index (or Essence, as Mike M. does not like
the concept of the Body Index), but won'r cost as much as having everything
implanted individually.

-Herc
Message no. 16
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:39:58 EST
In a message dated 1/1/99 3:36:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
nomad74@*******.COM writes:

> So, I'm working through my 3rd game of Metal Gear Solid, right?
> Many of the issues brought up in that game- besides glorious violence-
> is genomic experiments. I start thinking about this stuff, and I break
> out ye olde copy of Shadowtech and read up on Gene Therapy.

Oh ye, given unto the Tome of Terror....

> Kinda vague, I thought. At least, from a sci-fi point of view.

True.

> Gene Therapy, for those that don't know (or those that do and are
> all too eager to correct me <g>), is basically encoding a gene onto an
> existing gene in order to change a person or thing's original DNA code.
> In 'Tech, it basically gives prices for using gene therapy to replace an
> arm, heal a wound, or cure a disease (especially ones on the genetic
> level). It also leaves room for the GM to come up with some other uses.

Lots of room, but little guidance or direction.

> Given the definition of Gene Therapy, as well as assuming DNA is at
> least partially mapped out in order for this to be legally put into
> practice, do you folks think it would be possible to use Gene Therapy to
> transform a (meta)human of one race into another?

*THAT* is something that we have tinkered around with here. However, it is
solidly not something to have running around as "common place genetics", if
you do choose to use it.

Me personally, IF that much of the expressive traits are in fact "Genetic" in
form and basis, then what you suggest, given SR's level of biotechnical
development, should be readily performable. However, at that level of event,
the term "Goblinization" would IMO be quite nightmarish, as anyone that is
going to be so "changed" is going to undergo incredibly massive changes, and
they are going to do so in a very little amount of time (potentially so
anyway).

> Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
> something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
> a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
> same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?

It is actually a topic of consideration in that department.

> Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?

Potentially, yes, but there are other problems that could arise in turn.
Genetic Failure being one of the biggest ones. IMO, that concept is
technically what "exceding the body index limits" actually is. A point where
the body's original form and shape are changed/altered so dramatically as to
wreak havoc directly upon the body's recuperative and autonomic systems.

> Granted, it will be a cold day in hades before I allow any of
> this into my game. But it's interesting stuff to think about and maybe
> even the foundation for some run/plot ideas...

I completely agree with you here. The difference is we are not so restrictive
and *Have* done this in our games previously (as far back as 94 we did this
actually that I clearly recall). Recently we've gotten nastier, and have even
gone so far as to change and elf in a human via similar methods (as, IOCO,
they are physiologically the nearest to each other, with the exception of
possibly human/dwarf).

-K
Message no. 17
From: Adam Baker <apocrytha@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 06:55:14 -0600
At 07:39 PM 1/1/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 1/1/99 3:36:57 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>nomad74@*******.COM writes:
>
>> So, I'm working through my 3rd game of Metal Gear Solid, right?
>> Many of the issues brought up in that game- besides glorious violence-
>> is genomic experiments. I start thinking about this stuff, and I break
>> out ye olde copy of Shadowtech and read up on Gene Therapy.
>
>Oh ye, given unto the Tome of Terror....
>
>> Kinda vague, I thought. At least, from a sci-fi point of view.
>
>True.
>
>> Gene Therapy, for those that don't know (or those that do and are
>> all too eager to correct me <g>), is basically encoding a gene onto an
>> existing gene in order to change a person or thing's original DNA code.
>> In 'Tech, it basically gives prices for using gene therapy to replace an
>> arm, heal a wound, or cure a disease (especially ones on the genetic
>> level). It also leaves room for the GM to come up with some other uses.
>
>Lots of room, but little guidance or direction.
>
>> Given the definition of Gene Therapy, as well as assuming DNA is at
>> least partially mapped out in order for this to be legally put into
>> practice, do you folks think it would be possible to use Gene Therapy to
>> transform a (meta)human of one race into another?
>
>*THAT* is something that we have tinkered around with here. However, it is
>solidly not something to have running around as "common place genetics", if
>you do choose to use it.
>
>Me personally, IF that much of the expressive traits are in fact "Genetic"
in
>form and basis, then what you suggest, given SR's level of biotechnical
>development, should be readily performable. However, at that level of event,
>the term "Goblinization" would IMO be quite nightmarish, as anyone that is
>going to be so "changed" is going to undergo incredibly massive changes, and
>they are going to do so in a very little amount of time (potentially so
>anyway).
>
>> Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
>> something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
>> a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
>> same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
>
>It is actually a topic of consideration in that department.
>
>> Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?
>
>Potentially, yes, but there are other problems that could arise in turn.
>Genetic Failure being one of the biggest ones. IMO, that concept is
>technically what "exceding the body index limits" actually is. A point
where
>the body's original form and shape are changed/altered so dramatically as to
>wreak havoc directly upon the body's recuperative and autonomic systems.
>
>> Granted, it will be a cold day in hades before I allow any of
>> this into my game. But it's interesting stuff to think about and maybe
>> even the foundation for some run/plot ideas...
>
>I completely agree with you here. The difference is we are not so
restrictive
>and *Have* done this in our games previously (as far back as 94 we did this
>actually that I clearly recall). Recently we've gotten nastier, and have
even
>gone so far as to change and elf in a human via similar methods (as, IOCO,
>they are physiologically the nearest to each other, with the exception of
>possibly human/dwarf).
>
>-K
>
>
In the SR world its not possible to change the Meta-type at this time. In
Shadowtech there is a section about how they dont know much about how
Meta-genes soak up the 'Magical Engeries' of the area. If changing
Meta-type could be done then just breeding Mages could be also.
Message no. 18
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:36:06 EST
In a message dated 1/2/99 7:56:44 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
apocrytha@*********.NET writes:

>
> In the SR world its not possible to change the Meta-type at this time. In
> Shadowtech there is a section about how they dont know much about how
> Meta-genes soak up the 'Magical Engeries' of the area. If changing
> Meta-type could be done then just breeding Mages could be also.

NOT if you just decide to keep the Metagene *NOT* responsible for the
manifestation of magical talent in an individual. Merely make a submissive
trait of the RNA coding that is responsive to the environmental confines of
the exposed individual. There are genetic traits that are this way now, the
fact is they are just very dormant in most humans for some reason as compared
to many animal-kingdom species. IIRC, *some* of the more directly
responsive/expressive "Metagene-like" codes are held in amphibians (the
Jurassic Park "Sex Switch" is merely one expression of this).

Magic, IMO, is something that Genetics will simply never be able to fully
grasp. Sure, it might make things more *probable* (the old thing about mom
and dad were mages, therefore I get a 75% chance of magic, with a 25% chance
of being a full magician and a 50% chance of being magical in some way). But,
there is simply more to Magic than "Genetic Expression".

Genetic Expression of a Racial/Specal (sp?) Trait is going to be something far
more performable than GE of an Abstract Trait.

At least, IMO

-K
Message no. 19
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gene Therapy
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 14:08:07 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Friday, January 01, 1999 2:35 AM
Subject: Gene Therapy


: I start thinking about this stuff, and I break
:out ye olde copy of Shadowtech and read up on Gene Therapy.
: Kinda vague, I thought. At least, from a sci-fi point of view.

And how.

: Gene Therapy, for those that don't know (or those that do and are
:all too eager to correct me <g>), is basically encoding a gene onto an
:existing gene in order to change a person or thing's original DNA code.
:In 'Tech, it basically gives prices for using gene therapy to replace an
:arm, heal a wound, or cure a disease (especially ones on the genetic
:level). It also leaves room for the GM to come up with some other uses.

That is (theoretically) possible using a retro-virus. Some gene
threrapies exist today, I think, but cebnter more on mono-clonal
antibodies and such.

: Given the definition of Gene Therapy, as well as assuming DNA is at
:least partially mapped out in order for this to be legally put into
:practice, do you folks think it would be possible to use Gene Therapy to
:transform a (meta)human of one race into another?

Of course it is. HMVV acomp[lishes that job rather nicely, with one
strain turning almost anybody into a ghoul. :)
Obviously, your asking about controlled, non-ghoul goblinization. I
wouldn't say its impossible, but it would be experimental and very risky-
normal adult goblinization often causes insanity, and that my be from
goblinization induced brain damage. The technlogy is probaly best not
developed- humnis would love to find a "cure" for metahumnity (and I think
related groups have poured money into that).

: Now that I've opened up a can o' worms with that one, let me ask
:something else: What about using Gene Therapy as a replacement-albeit
:a VERY expensive one- for bioware? Think about it, just encoding the
:same genetic info as a synaptic accelerator into your body?
:Would/Should that elimate that whole body index thing?

Nope. It eould make you really freaking sick. Bioware is gene
altered to perform its single function very well, but not for general
survival / health. Shadowtechnology mentions that most organs and bioware
requires the growth of a "host body", from which the item is harvested.
The host is usually non-viable due to the gene alteration.

It is entirely possible that some bioware like effects could be
accomplished with gene therapy. The simplest would be ones that required
the production of non-standard types or levels of hormones and other
compounds. Relatively simple structural and functional changes (like
skin alteration, for orthoskin, or bone marrow alteration, for platelets)
would also be simple. I don't think the BI cost would change much, as the
body would still be required to fill a metabolic demand it would not
normally have. Just because its self grown doesn't make it HEALTHY.



Mongoose

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Gene Therapy, you may also be interested in:

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