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From:	John Jacobsma <j.jacobsma@************.COM>
Subject:	Re: Genetics and immortality
Date:	Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:42:44 -0600

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On Sunday, December 8 at 2:23 AM, Joachim Buchert wrote:
> Remember, there are several forms of immortality. And the expression may
> (does) vary from case to case. Not even the immortals themselves know, or the
> one who do aren't sharing.

Huh? There's the form where you don't die from natural causes, and...
Refresh my memory, what _are_ the other forms of immortality?

> Yes, indeed. The elven genes were altered, but this isn't a matter of
> pure genetics here, indeed, it is a matter of magic.

Ah, but it is "pure" genetics. Magic is just the mutagen in this
case. Once the mutation has occurred, it would be inherited (or not
inherited) normally.

> Well, hrm. There is a point here, but .. everything cannot be duplicated,
> especially if you don't know which gene causes the trait. Also, it might
> be travel unexpressed down the bloodlines for some time ..

But my point was, given the state of genetic research _today_, it's
quite plausible, even likely, that the gene(s) that cause immortality
would be known, and _any_ strand of DNA can be duplicated. (That's
one of the properties that makes it suitable as a means of
inheritance, after all.)

> You are supposing that the gene doesn't require a level of mana to keep
> up the immortality, just to start it. Perhaps, but I doubt it.

Really? Think about it logically. The mana was low for what, about
FIVE THOUSAND years? If mana was required to retain the trait, all
the immortals would have died in the Fifth World. (Early in the Fifth
World.) No, the immortality has to be sustainable by mundane
biochemical processes, or it isn't really immortality.

Now, I am willing to entertain the possibility that mana _is_
required to sustain immortality, but then we have to address the
question of where the immortals got mana during the Fifth World.
Blood magic, or something like it, perhaps?

> Personally, I think the immortals were infertile during the low mana period.

Possible, but what does this have to do with whether mana is required
to stay immortal? (I wouldn't be suprised to find out that immortals
are sub-fertile _all_ the time, especially if it's a "designer"
mutation.)

> The 'elven conspiracy', as it is frequently called in my games, is intent
> on not sharing the information, and yes, they are very powerful. TIC
> knows the gene for one, but they cannot duplicate it.

We call them the ETMC. (Elven Techno-Magical Cabal) :) And they have
a vested interest in keeping this info secret.

ttfn,

// - - - john jacobsma - - - <j.jacobsma@************.com> - - -
// for geek code & pgp public key, visit my web page:
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From:	Joachim H A Buchert <avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI>
Subject:	Re: Genetics and immortality
Date:	Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:06:12 +0200

Message no. 2 > On Sunday, December 8 at 2:23 AM, Joachim Buchert wrote:
> > Remember, there are several forms of immortality. And the expression may
>
> Huh? There's the form where you don't die from natural causes, and...
> Refresh my memory, what _are_ the other forms of immortality?

Very well. First off, how is immortality gained:
1) From a gene
2) From a Free Spirit's Hidden Life power
3) From magical items (The Eternal Rose)

Different types of immortality, sure:
1) You will not die from old age
2) You will not die from physical harm
3) Both of the above.

> > Yes, indeed. The elven genes were altered, but this isn't a matter of
> > pure genetics here, indeed, it is a matter of magic.
>
> Ah, but it is "pure" genetics. Magic is just the mutagen in this
> case. Once the mutation has occurred, it would be inherited (or not
> inherited) normally.

Hmm. Yes, I think I'd have to agree here, yet it is not the only
possibility. The immortality 'gene' may be composed of two parts: The
gene, which is like a spell lock, and a sustained 'spell'/power.

Or something different. It might not be pure genetics, I repeat.

> But my point was, given the state of genetic research _today_, it's
> quite plausible, even likely, that the gene(s) that cause immortality
> would be known, and _any_ strand of DNA can be duplicated. (That's
> one of the properties that makes it suitable as a means of
> inheritance, after all.)

Yes, I fully agree, BUT: We must make the assumption that for some
strange reason the immortality gene has not been located, or the set of
genes which causes it have not been isolated. Remember that very few DNA
samples would be available for study. In fact, I'd say none, but ..

And .. currently any strand of DNA can be duplicated, yes, but given the
existance of magic and its very likely involvement, it might make this void.
In several instances, life equals magic, and perhaps cold science create
what powerful life can. Therefore, the gene can only manifest naturally.

I'd like to call this immortality gene meta-gene, not relating to the SR
gene with the same note. Meta-gene for the purpose that this gene, due to
the presence of magic, is more than a standard gene.

Science is science. Fantasy is fantasy. Let's remember that.

> > You are supposing that the gene doesn't require a level of mana to keep
> > up the immortality, just to start it. Perhaps, but I doubt it.
>
> Really? Think about it logically. The mana was low for what, about
> FIVE THOUSAND years? If mana was required to retain the trait, all
> the immortals would have died in the Fifth World. (Early in the Fifth
> World.) No, the immortality has to be sustainable by mundane
> biochemical processes, or it isn't really immortality.

Yes, mana was low, but not non-existant, so it does not have to
sustainable in an 'exceptable' way, definately not.

> Now, I am willing to entertain the possibility that mana _is_
> required to sustain immortality, but then we have to address the
> question of where the immortals got mana during the Fifth World.
> Blood magic, or something like it, perhaps?

A strong possibility, but again .. mana was not non-existent, it was
merely at a low. We know for a fact that there have been spellcasters
during our own times, in SR 'mythology'. Just take a look at World
Without End.

- J -

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Genetics and immortality
Date:	Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:23:49 +0100

Message no. 3 Joachim H A Buchert said on 22:06/11 Dec 96...

> Very well. First off, how is immortality gained:
> 1) From a gene
> 2) From a Free Spirit's Hidden Life power
> 3) From magical items (The Eternal Rose)

4) From a Horror (Aina and Ysrthgrathefkshkbmwsrhnerwhatever, for example)

> Different types of immortality, sure:
> 1) You will not die from old age
> 2) You will not die from physical harm
> 3) Both of the above.

1a) You will not age (very important -- not dying of old age means you
can still suffer from all the problems old people generally suffer from,
like bad eyesight, going deaf, dementia, and so on, but for you it won't
end when you're 70 or 80 or 90 or ...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Oh wow! Oh wow! This is really, really heavy, man!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	John Jacobsma <j.jacobsma@************.COM>
Subject:	Re: Genetics and immortality
Date:	Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:12:09 -0600

Message no. 4 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tuesday, December 10 at 11:42 PM, I asked:
> Refresh my memory, what _are_ the other forms of immortality?

On Wednesday, December 11 at 10:06 PM, Joachim Buchert answered:
> Very well. First off, how is immortality gained:
> 1) From a gene
> 2) From a Free Spirit's Hidden Life power
> 3) From magical items (The Eternal Rose)

Ah. Part of the confusion I was experiencing is semantics. I wouldn't
consider immortality from different sources to be a different _form_.
But no matter.

Joachim continued:
> Different types of immortality, sure:
> 1) You will not die from old age
> 2) You will not die from physical harm
> 3) Both of the above.

I only consider #1 to be "pure" immortality. #2 is invulnerability.
#3 is immortality + invulnerability. Now we understand each other's
terms. BTW, #2 & 3 will not exist in my world. If you manage to drop
a 16 ton weight on Harlequin, he _will_ die. (Good luck!)

I continued:
> Ah, but it is "pure" genetics. Magic is just the mutagen in this
> case. Once the mutation has occurred, it would be inherited (or not
> inherited) normally.

Joachim replied:
> Hmm. Yes, I think I'd have to agree here, yet it is not the only
> possibility. The immortality 'gene' may be composed of two parts: The
> gene, which is like a spell lock, and a sustained 'spell'/power.

> Or something different. It might not be pure genetics, I repeat.

OK, point taken. I think it makes the most sense, using Occam's
Razor, to say that magic is _not_ required to sustain immortality, so
that's the way it is in my world. But you're quite right, there are
other (more complicated, to my mind) possibilities.

I continued:
> But my point was, given the state of genetic research _today_, it's
> quite plausible, even likely, that the gene(s) that cause immortality
> would be known, and _any_ strand of DNA can be duplicated. (That's
> one of the properties that makes it suitable as a means of
> inheritance, after all.)

Joachim replied:
> Yes, I fully agree, BUT: We must make the assumption that for some
> strange reason the immortality gene has not been located, or the set of
> genes which causes it have not been isolated. Remember that very few DNA
> samples would be available for study. In fact, I'd say none, but ..

I suppose we _could_ say that the results of the Human Genome Project
were lost in the Crash of '29. And you're quite right about the lack
of samples. The immortal elves don't even like mundanes knowing about
the existance of immortality, so they aren't cooperating in any
research. And from the researchers' point of view, how does one
identify an immortal?

Joachim continued:
> And .. currently any strand of DNA can be duplicated, yes, but given the
> existance of magic and its very likely involvement, it might make this void.
> In several instances, life equals magic, and perhaps cold science create
> what powerful life can. Therefore, the gene can only manifest naturally.

I'm not sure I buy this, but I'll grant it's a possibility.

Joachim continued:
> Science is science. Fantasy is fantasy. Let's remember that.

And Science Fantasy is Science Fantasy. The idea is to put in enough
reasonable extrapolation from real science to make the fantasy more
believable.

I continued:
> Really? Think about it logically. The mana was low for what, about
> FIVE THOUSAND years? If mana was required to retain the trait, all
> the immortals would have died in the Fifth World. (Early in the Fifth
> World.) No, the immortality has to be sustainable by mundane
> biochemical processes, or it isn't really immortality.

Joachim responded:
> Yes, mana was low, but not non-existant, so it does not have to
> sustainable in an 'exceptable' way, definately not.

Good point. You're right, of course. We don't know if mana ever hits
zero, but it seems likely that it does not. It's possible that only a
tiny amount of mana is required to sustain the immortality gene, and
the mana curve never goes below that threshold, or doesn't go below
it long enough for the immortals to age and die.

Hmm, there's an interesting thought: what if the immortals age a few
years at the low point in ecah cycle? After twenty or thirty cycles,
even elves would be getting geriatric. (Doesn't have much of an
effect on the campaign, but it's interesting.)

// -- john jacobsma ------- <j.jacobsma@************.com> --
// for geek code & pgp key, visit my web page:
// http://www.inil.com/users/big_jake/
// -- fnord ---------------- fnord ---------------- fnord --

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From:	Joachim H A Buchert <avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI>
Subject:	Re: Genetics and immortality
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:52:26 +0200

Message no. 5 On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, John Jacobsma wrote:

> Joachim continued:
> > Different types of immortality, sure:
> > 1) You will not die from old age
> > 2) You will not die from physical harm
> > 3) Both of the above.
>
> I only consider #1 to be "pure" immortality. #2 is invulnerability.
> #3 is immortality + invulnerability. Now we understand each other's
> terms. BTW, #2 & 3 will not exist in my world. If you manage to drop
> a 16 ton weight on Harlequin, he _will_ die. (Good luck!)

Yes, merely pointing out those. Neither will I consider anyone
invulnerable. Or well, dragons are effectively invulnerable in my game,
but that's another matter entirely. :)

> > Or something different. It might not be pure genetics, I repeat.
>
> OK, point taken. I think it makes the most sense, using Occam's
> Razor, to say that magic is _not_ required to sustain immortality, so
> that's the way it is in my world. But you're quite right, there are
> other (more complicated, to my mind) possibilities.

Funny, I think using Occam's Razor here would actually result in magic
being very much a part of this. Of course, personally I've never considered
Occam's Razor that good, and knowing FASA, we're probably dealing with
something quite complicated. I should hope they've thought it out as much as
we and others have.

> Joachim responded:
> > Yes, mana was low, but not non-existant, so it does not have to
> > sustainable in an 'exceptable' way, definately not.
>
> Good point. You're right, of course. We don't know if mana ever hits
> zero, but it seems likely that it does not. It's possible that only a
> tiny amount of mana is required to sustain the immortality gene, and
> the mana curve never goes below that threshold, or doesn't go below
> it long enough for the immortals to age and die.
>
> Hmm, there's an interesting thought: what if the immortals age a few
> years at the low point in ecah cycle? After twenty or thirty cycles,
> even elves would be getting geriatric. (Doesn't have much of an
> effect on the campaign, but it's interesting.)

Actually I thought about this myself. It's an intriguing idea, though
what will a few years (or some ten years) change in an elf, who are long
lived even without this particular gene? Not much, unless they live
through several 'Worlds'.

Now, I currently support the theory that the dragons are the orginators
of the elven immortality factor. Somehow, they eliminated the
reincarnating spirit of the elves (if there indeed is one) and forced the
spirit to live its whole life in one body. Now, if this is true, I
believe magic is as large a part of this affair as I've supported.

But frankly, since we nor anyone in the SR universe doesn't have an
immortal test subject, we can't speculare too much without starting to
argue over facts we have no real idea of. It seems we've reached a logical
conclusion, to be continued when we get new products with information on
this, and I do hope they will someday in the future explore this angle of
immortality. I am sure the corps, or universities, or practically anyone,
would not jump over a chance to study immortality.

- J -

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Genetics and immortality
Date:	Fri, 13 Dec 1996 15:11:06 GMT

Message no. 6 Joachim H A Buchert writes

> On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, John Jacobsma wrote:
>
> >
> > I only consider #1 to be "pure" immortality. #2 is invulnerability.
> > #3 is immortality + invulnerability. Now we understand each other's
> > terms. BTW, #2 & 3 will not exist in my world. If you manage to drop
> > a 16 ton weight on Harlequin, he _will_ die. (Good luck!)
>
The problems getting Harlequin to stand in the way long enough :)

> Yes, merely pointing out those. Neither will I consider anyone
> invulnerable. Or well, dragons are effectively invulnerable in my game,
> but that's another matter entirely. :)
>
The full blown Great Dragons i consider invulnerable simply because i
don't want to have to work out stats for something that is immune to
anything there are game stats for except trunks full of C12. Yes
enough C12 and i don't care how much armour its got. Sure some of the
published great dragon stats are more than killable but show them the
Grimoire the way most folke do PC's and i don't think so somehow,
even assuming an int 9+ critter is stupid enough to let you get that
close. And before you suggest nuking it from orbit even theromnukes
have to land within about 10 miles of the wretched dragon to work,
happy hunting :)

Mark

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