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Message no. 1
From: DroneWar@*******.com (Stephen Allee)
Subject: Geneva Convention, Medics, Megacorporations: Was "Re: Runaway and
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:49:55 -0600
Craig West said:


> According to the Geneva Convention, medics (as long as they aren't holding
a
> weapon) are considered non combatants and therefore not legal targets. If
> they pick up a weapon, then they're fair game.
>
> Of course, as in real life, not everyone follows the Geneva convention.
That
> is even if it applies to the various mega corps.
>
> There is a nasty thought, corporations starting to sign world treaties,
> surely a sign that they're more powerful then your average country.
>
> Aramis.

It would surprise me greatly if there were not at least informal rules of
warfare between the corporations. Resources such as manufacturing facilities
and laboratories are expensive to replace, so it is in everyone's best
interest to agree to limit the amount of collateral damage that is done in
the course of industrial espionage and sabotage. That is one of the main
reasons I can think of why Desert Wars is fought way out in the middle of
nowhere (aside from the catchy name...). It is probably a mostly informal
code akin to that held by the US and USSR during the cold war period.

Also, full-scale military conflict is expensive in terms of lost
productivity, increased materiél consumption, and staffing costs for the
combatants and associated support staff. A corporation is accountable to its
stockholders for profit / loss, and with few exceptions, the cost of a
full-scale military incursion tends to outway the potential gains. This may
be why they subcontract assignments to shadowrunners.

<digression>
Shadowrunners are probably more expensive in terms of performing a single
mission for the corporation in question than it would be to use in-house
professionals. However, they are deniable assets. Also, a smaller
corporation may contract only a handful of operations during any given
quarter. A corporation that chooses to use in-house professionals is
responsible for the group's annual salaries, benefit costs (health, dental,
life insurance), equipment and upkeep, training, etc. The cost versus
benefit along with the prevailing business climate tends towards outsourcing
to outside professionals.
</digression>

Basically, corporations are in business to turn a profit. A state of war is
expensive for both parties in terms of lost facilities and increased
security costs. It's a world of difference between stopping a team of
infiltrators from stealing something and protecting a facility from being
overrun by Panzers and airstrikes. Treaties, formal and informal, almost
certainly exist to protect the interests of the shareholders. It's up to the
GM to decide what treaties exist and how they are handled.

Imagine, if you will, that corporations had treaties that required them to
turn over anyone they run across during normal business operation to another
company if that person could be proved to have been involved in one or more
"crimes" against that company. An extreme case would be as follows: You
visit a Stuffer Shack (Aztechnology) to buy some cheap synthahol. The clerk
runs your ID to verify your age. A postive hit comes back to detain you
because Cross Applied Tech believes that you were involved in an op against
one of their facilities a while back. When you are leaving the building, the
mantrap locks you down until Aztechnology security can come and collect you.



Off-topic below:
Technically, you are not supposed to shoot at medical personnel. If they are
not identified as such, however, they are fair game. The medic can still
shoot at you in defense of themselves and their patients. Since anyone you
shoot will become a patient for that medic to treat, he or she will almost
certainly be shooting at you first if they see you. The medic does, however,
have to disengage if you attempt to break contact.

The Geneva Convention classifies medical personnel as "retained persons"
(class II personnel) rather than "enemy combatants" (class I personnel) in
the event of capture. They can be required / allowed to treat US casualties
being held by the aggressor nation, but must be released after the
casualties have been treated.

A Medical Company (like M*A*S*H but smaller) cannot hold any portion of a
shared perimeter and cannot be used to stage offensive operations from. U.S.
interpretation means that medical company personnel are limited to pistols
and service rifles (M16A2 / M4-A1). They are not authorised machine guns,
mines, rocket launchers, etc. Basically, no toys. Sucks, huh?

Oh, and it's considered _really_ bad form to call for fire from a medevac
helicopter. Especially during a computer simulation when you are surrounded
by Colonels. They get a little upset. Just a little...

I am _not_ a medic. ;-) I play with the logistics end of it. It's sort of
like a cross between stocking shelves at Rite-Aid and selling drugs on the
corner.
Message no. 2
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Geneva Convention, Medics, Megacorporations: Was "Re: Runaway and
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:14:55 +0000
In article <BAY12-DAV409xC2pKFR00037df1@*******.com>, Stephen Allee
<DroneWar@*******.com> writes
>It would surprise me greatly if there were not at least informal rules of
>warfare between the corporations.

This is a much-flogged horse for me, but it's worth reprising:
corporations don't do armed forces above 'gesture' level. As a
for-instance, the Big Eight average a battalion or so (~450 troops) each
of all-arms military: the UK has thirty-odd infantry battalions, a dozen
tank battalions, and so on and so forth.

Desert Wars is the corporate version of Fort Irwin or BATUS: much
SAWES/MILES, limited live-fire, intended to develop tactics and
technologies and identify where the market is going.

>Also, full-scale military conflict is expensive in terms of lost
>productivity, increased materiél consumption, and staffing costs for the
>combatants and associated support staff. A corporation is accountable to its
>stockholders for profit / loss, and with few exceptions, the cost of a
>full-scale military incursion tends to outway the potential gains. This may
>be why they subcontract assignments to shadowrunners.

Also why they don't do overt armed conflict: too expensive to prepare
for, ruinously expensive to fight, and a lack of clear payoff.

><digression>
>Shadowrunners are probably more expensive in terms of performing a single
>mission for the corporation in question than it would be to use in-house
>professionals. However, they are deniable assets.

They're also a single cost: an in-house team requires a constant stream
of funds for training, equipment, ammunition. They expect injury and
death benefits; when one retires, dies, is rendered unserviceable or is
promoted out of the team you have to find a replacement and pay to train
them into the team... money, money, money. (And the salary and benefits
have to be convincing enough that you get good personnel who are
competitive with the shadow market)

Much cheaper for a limited number of missions to use contract labour,
even before you get into the deniability aspect. If you're doing so many
opposed black-ops that a dedicated team becomes cost-effective, you're
not a "business" but a "combatant" :)

>Also, a smaller
>corporation may contract only a handful of operations during any given
>quarter. A corporation that chooses to use in-house professionals is
>responsible for the group's annual salaries, benefit costs (health, dental,
>life insurance), equipment and upkeep, training, etc. The cost versus
>benefit along with the prevailing business climate tends towards outsourcing
>to outside professionals.
></digression>

Spot on.

>Basically, corporations are in business to turn a profit.

That's basically the _only_ reason they exist.

>A state of war is
>expensive for both parties in terms of lost facilities and increased
>security costs.

Even preparing for war is ruinously expensive. Look what it costs to
develop an aircraft in the F-22/Eurofighter class: there are two
fighters of that class in development, with a straggle of competent but
less-capable followers (Rafale, Su-27 derivatives, Gripen) and then a
long straggle of older aircraft (from F-16s at the end of development to
relifed MiG-21s)

There is simply no way that every megacorporation can singlehandedly
develop all the tools needed for a balanced effective military, field
them in useful combat-ready numbers, maintain both the lift needed to
move them and the FP assets to cover them, and still turn a profit.

And if it's possible to do business without this level of military
might, why waste the money?

>It's a world of difference between stopping a team of
>infiltrators from stealing something and protecting a facility from being
>overrun by Panzers and airstrikes.

Never mind the facility: the automobile factory is in, shall we say,
India: the cars are being delivered to Nagasaki or Shanghai or San
Fransisco.

It costs much, much more to maintain an effective ASuW, AAW, ASW and MCM
force across that whole sea lane than it does to charter a mercenary
group to hit a laden car-carrier on its route from port to port.

>Treaties, formal and informal, almost
>certainly exist to protect the interests of the shareholders. It's up to the
>GM to decide what treaties exist and how they are handled.

Corporations don't do direct military action. Full stop. They have other
options and other levers to pull.

One of the Big Sticks that the Corporate Court holds is "if you continue
to misbehave then we will tell national governments that you no longer
enjoy our support and protection". The nations have the troops and toys,
the corporations have the support contracts and the money.

>Off-topic below:
>Technically, you are not supposed to shoot at medical personnel. If they are
>not identified as such, however, they are fair game. The medic can still
>shoot at you in defense of themselves and their patients.

Rule One: if they're firing a weapon they're a combatant.

Medical personnel are indeed protected, but the spirit of the GCs is to
protect stretcher-bearers retrieving wounded and medics treating
casualties: medics who take "active part" in hostilities forfeit their
protection.

If the enemy is bayoneting your wounded, requiring the medics to fight
in their defence, then you can be fairly sure that the enemy will care
no more for the protected status of medical personnel than they do for
the protected state of wounded and prisoners.



Medics don't shoot at people unless things have really hit the fan. If
nothing else, they're normally too damn busy IRL.

>Oh, and it's considered _really_ bad form to call for fire from a medevac
>helicopter. Especially during a computer simulation when you are surrounded
>by Colonels. They get a little upset. Just a little...

Nobody wants the enemy replying with a regimental MRL strike on a field
hospital. The GCs do allow for reprisals...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Geneva Convention, Medics, Megacorporations: Was "Re: Runaway and
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 11:07:07 +0100
According to Paul J. Adam, on Friday 20 February 2004 22:14 the word on the
street was...

> >Basically, corporations are in business to turn a profit.
>
> That's basically the _only_ reason they exist.

You'd be surprised at how many people forget this simple fact, though. I
had a hell of a time a few months ago trying to get an uncle of mine to
understand that a bank is not there to provide service at the counter, but
to take your money so that they can use it to make a profit for
themselves...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be more truth than fable?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Geneva Convention, Medics, Megacorporations: Was "Re: Runaway and
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:27:13 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> According to Paul J. Adam, on Friday 20 February 2004 22:14
> the word on the street was...
>
> > >Basically, corporations are in business to turn a profit.
> >
> > That's basically the _only_ reason they exist.
>
> You'd be surprised at how many people forget this simple
> fact, though. I
> had a hell of a time a few months ago trying to get an uncle
> of mine to
> understand that a bank is not there to provide service at the
> counter, but to take your money so that they can use it to
> make a profit for
> themselves...

Correct, but let's not forget the fact that it's in the best interest of the
bank's bottom line to provide that service to attract customers. Otherwise,
everyone's gonna go to the bank across the street.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Geneva Convention, Medics, Megacorporations: Was "Re: Runaway and
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:10:14 +0100
According to Steve Garrard, on Tuesday 24 February 2004 13:27 the word on
the street was...

> Correct, but let's not forget the fact that it's in the best interest of
> the bank's bottom line to provide that service to attract customers.
> Otherwise, everyone's gonna go to the bank across the street.

Only true to a certain degree. I don't know what the situation in the US is
like (not having a need to use one very often :) but around here, pretty
much _any_ time banks become the subject of conversation, it's mostly
about how much their service has declined compared to, say, ten years ago.
Most offices in smaller villages get closed, the remaining ones offer
fewer services, most charge money for anything they have to do at the
counter, and so on. They can get away with this in a large degree quite
simply because there _is_ no bank across the street.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be more truth than fable?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Geneva Convention, Medics, Megacorporations: Was "Re: Runaway and
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:17:34 +0200
Gurth wrote:
> According to Steve Garrard, on Tuesday 24 February 2004 13:27
> the word on the street was...
>
> > Correct, but let's not forget the fact that it's in the
> best interest
> > of the bank's bottom line to provide that service to attract
> > customers. Otherwise, everyone's gonna go to the bank across the
> > street.
>
> Only true to a certain degree. I don't know what the
> situation in the US is like (not having a need to use one
> very often :) but around here, pretty much _any_ time banks
> become the subject of conversation, it's mostly
> about how much their service has declined compared to, say,
> ten years ago. Most offices in smaller villages get closed,
> the remaining ones offer
> fewer services, most charge money for anything they have to do at the
> counter, and so on. They can get away with this in a large
> degree quite
> simply because there _is_ no bank across the street.

Well yes, okay, I was using banks because you mentioned them. Perhaps a bad
example, but my point stands as a general rule.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Geneva Convention, Medics, Megacorporations: Was "Re: Runaway and
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:29:13 +0100
According to John C. Penta, on Tuesday 24 February 2004 15:35 the word on
the street was...

> Much the similar in the US, actually. There was a nasty blowup related
> to this that I remember well, maybe a year ago:
>
> Military personnel, for various reasons, must have all of their
> paychecks directly-deposited into a bank account.

This is standard practice for just about every job over on this side of the
world...

> Now, your average enlisted's net paycheck is kinda small....And it
> gets worryingly smaller when the bank pulls a fee for using the ATM, and
> (maybe) a fee for using another bank's ATM on top of it.

Surprisingly, that's about the only thing Dutch banks _don't_ charge you
for (aside from a small annual fee for the use of ATMs in general). A few
banks tried charging on a per-use basis a few years ago, but it was so
unpopular that they soon abolished it again.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Could it be more truth than fable?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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