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Message no. 1
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Get a Clue
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:24:37 -0600 (MDT)
I and one of the guys a game with were talking about giving
clues to PCs. We've both run across the problem of how
much to give out. What seems to be an obvious clue to the
GM leaves the players clueless. The PCs founder and the
players get bored and start playing Magic. But if you bash
'em in the head with a clue they give you that "What do you
think I am, stupid?" look. How do other GMs on this list
deal with this? And to be all inclusive, what do the
players think would work best?

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 2
From: GRANITE <granite@**.net>
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 02:47:54 -0700
David Buehrer wrote:
> How do other GMs on this list
> deal with this? And to be all inclusive, what do the
> players think would work best?

Well..even the best players will have to be bashed over the head from
time to time..if just for the fun of it..I usually sprinkle clues
liberally throughout an adventure..Then if need be I get out the clue
brick and bash away..I usually save the brick for emergencies though..I
don't like to spoon feed players..I would rather they pick up on things
for themselves..
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 3
From: Jonathan Wright <jwrigh01@********.ca>
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> I and one of the guys a game with were talking about giving
> clues to PCs. We've both run across the problem of how
> much to give out. What seems to be an obvious clue to the
> GM leaves the players clueless. The PCs founder and the
> players get bored and start playing Magic. But if you bash
> 'em in the head with a clue they give you that "What do you
> think I am, stupid?" look. How do other GMs on this list
> deal with this? And to be all inclusive, what do the
> players think would work best?
>
As a GM I find that sometimes just calling a break and going and doing
something else for half an hour is all that's needed to bring players out
of the brain fog that often hits SR players and renders them unable to
see the "obvious" clue. We all sit down to resume and I ask one of the
players to review the details of the current run. This serves two purposes:

1) The other players clarify certain clues and details. This can lead to
the breakthrough they need.

2) I find out if something was not properly communicated or missed
completely. If I'm at fault for this it can then be corrected and they
can get back on track.

I must admit its a pretty tricky balance to maintain. To much info and
the players become bored (as well as me), to little and they become
frustrated. I have only had one shadowrun where they simply didn't catch
on to what was happening, I got frustrated and had the Johnson pull the
plug on the run. This smartened the runners up, they learned that not
attempting to piece clues together would lead them to failure.

Jon Wright
Message no. 4
From: brett@***.orst.edu (Brett Barksdale)
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 11:06:45 PDT
On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, David Buehrer wrote:

> I and one of the guys a game with were talking about giving
> clues to PCs. We've both run across the problem of how
> much to give out. What seems to be an obvious clue to the
> GM leaves the players clueless. The PCs founder and the
> players get bored and start playing Magic. But if you bash
> 'em in the head with a clue they give you that "What do you
> think I am, stupid?" look. How do other GMs on this list
> deal with this? And to be all inclusive, what do the
> players think would work best?

I'm a big fan of "the world has its own agenda". So, if the
players fail to catch on to what's going on, then so be it.
I just make sure not to write any "end of the world" (or "end
of the runners" as the case may be :-) plots so critical cluelessness
isn't guaranteed to be fatal.

However, when I feel that they've done really well and it's more
the fault of the game (read: me) that they haven't been able to
properly visualize what's going on, I tend to use an event or an
NPC to help them out. I try to make it look like it's just part of
the normal game and was going to happen anyway. They observe the event
and/or NPC and usually go "aha!".

Or not. Either way, it's fun... ;-)

- Brett
Message no. 5
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 03:03:39 +0100
In article <9609240324.AA16419@******>, David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@****.org> writes
>I and one of the guys a game with were talking about giving
>clues to PCs. We've both run across the problem of how
>much to give out. What seems to be an obvious clue to the
>GM leaves the players clueless. The PCs founder and the
>players get bored and start playing Magic. But if you bash
>'em in the head with a clue they give you that "What do you
>think I am, stupid?" look. How do other GMs on this list
>deal with this? And to be all inclusive, what do the
>players think would work best?
>
>-David
>
I tend to be really generous with clues, but they're only very small
hints at the big picture, I'm also very generous with red herrings, and
will throw NPCs, and clues at the players in an effort to draw them off
at a tangent. Occasionally this works, much to their chagrin.

I don't hold with clue bricks, but do help the players when they are
trying to put the clues together, by giving them little hints
occassionally, or a gentle nudge in a certain direction. After each
game, the players will sit around drinking coffee, and eating whatever
munchies are left until sunrise talking about the game and analysing
some of the things they've done, to see if they could have done it a
different way, or asked different questions. This is the time when they
usually go over what they think are clues that I've given out, the only
thing they have to do, is seperate the past from the present from the
future.

There are occassions when a player will contact me during the week, and
discuss certain aspects or ideas that he/she has had, and I will answer
them accordingly. If it's a group thing, we arrange for everyone to
meet that evening and hammer out whatever the idea is. It does mean,
that the game is virtually running all the time, which makes my life
more difficult, but the players enjoy it, and now that they've really
got the hang of the way I give out clues in the game, they are getting
quite good at it.

The only way to really decide how to present clues and game guidance to
the players is to watch how they deal with what you do give them, and
their reactions to the ingformation they gather, and then alter your
style a little to allow for it. Some players are extremely dense and
couldn't see a clue if it walked up dressed in neon, and kicked them in
the teeth, others will see it if it's concealed behind three feet of
plassteel with an invisibility spell cast on it. I'm also a great fan
of taking individual characters aside and giving them information
(especially if they are contacting any connections they have that are
not "team" contacts, this also gives the other players a chance to
discuss what they know, which helps. If the player has information that
the team needs, I will either let him/her roleplay the sharing of that
information, or if there is still research going on, take the next
player aside.

There are many different ways to drop hints and pass out information,
one of the most successful I have found is one I use in my game and that
is, a regular newsletter, admittedly I have a lot more time on my hands
than a lot of GM's (what with school/college/uni/work etc.) so I can
take out the time to write a twelve page newspaper for them, but I will
always hide in the paper clues about a run they are on, and whatever is
up and coming. At the moment they are desperately scanning back issues
to find some of the information for their current run, two of them have
come up with enough information to give them a reference point, and it's
possible they might be on the right trail this time, but I shall see.

Play it by ear, to start with, and feel your way along. It may be
better to start handing out only a little, and slowly increase the
amount of information, until you reach a level you are happy with, and
that your players can deal with.

Hope this long winded waffle of mine was at least a little help.

TTYL
Pete

--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.
Message no. 6
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:03:35 +0000
On 25 Sep 96 at 3:03, Pete Sims wrote:
[snip]
> Occasionally this works, much to their chagrin.
Ey! Stop using such words! I had to get my dictionry back off the top shelf to
look it up, and now it adds to the chaos 'round my computer (you are not
thinking I put it back up thre, now do you???)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 7
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 01:02:31 +0100
In article <m0v5vW0-0004wlC@*******.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>, Sascha
Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.uni-oldenburg.de> writes
>On 25 Sep 96 at 3:03, Pete Sims wrote:
>[snip]
>> Occasionally this works, much to their chagrin.
>Ey! Stop using such words! I had to get my dictionry back off the top shelf to
>look it up, and now it adds to the chaos 'round my computer (you are not
>thinking I put it back up thre, now do you???)
>
You have my deepest and sincerest apologies Sascha, I will refrain from
using terminology and analogies that may cause some translational
difficulties for you. I keep forgetting that this internationally
contributing list has people of non-English speaking countries on it,
and I will bow to you request for less of the esoteric and imaginative
descriptive syntax. I would hate to upset our friends in Deutschland.
:-)

As for the clutter around your computer, I have no sympathy at all,
none, not even a little. I have a violent and physically demanding
combat session just to find my keyboard some mornings. The wife got fed
up with the mess around my computer, so she bought me a bigger desk, a
filing cabinet, shelves, cd rack, and other toys. All it's done is
encourage me to store even more near, next to and on my computer. I sit
in the corner of the living room hidden behind piles of paper, disks and
books - I suppose I really ought to get a life and tidy up occassionally
- I might be able to find things that way. :-)

TTYL
Pete
--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.
Message no. 8
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:05:10 +0000
On 26 Sep 96 at 1:02, Pete Sims wrote:
> You have my deepest and sincerest apologies Sascha, I will refrain from
> using terminology and analogies that may cause some translational
> difficulties for you. I keep forgetting that this internationally
> contributing list has people of non-English speaking countries on it,
> and I will bow to you request for less of the esoteric and imaginative
> descriptive syntax. I would hate to upset our friends in Deutschland.
> :-)
Thanks a lot (hm, strange, that wasn't too dificult :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 9
From: Pete Sims <petesims@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:58:25 +0100
In article <m0v6FDN-0004weC@*******.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>, Sascha
Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE> writes
>On 26 Sep 96 at 1:02, Pete Sims wrote:
>> You have my deepest and sincerest apologies Sascha, I will refrain from
>> using terminology and analogies that may cause some translational
>> difficulties for you. I keep forgetting that this internationally
>> contributing list has people of non-English speaking countries on it,
>> and I will bow to you request for less of the esoteric and imaginative
>> descriptive syntax. I would hate to upset our friends in Deutschland.
>> :-)
>Thanks a lot (hm, strange, that wasn't too dificult :-)
>
But that's the point, it wasn't supposed to be. :-)

Occassionally I do use words that I shouldn't, mainly because I own a
dictionary, and like to use it as rolling paper for cigarettes when I
run out of real ones, but I hate to lose what's on the page, so I read
it, and try to use whatever word is there that looks interesting at the
time. Unfortunately you'd just got one. :-)

Sooorrrryyyyyy .... :-)

Pete
--
Pete Sims
Civilisation advances by extending the number of important operations which we
can perform without thinking about them.
Message no. 10
From: "Sedah Drol" <sedahdro@****.holli.com>
Subject: Re: Get a Clue
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:10:34 +500
> As for the clutter around your computer, I have no sympathy at all,
> none, not even a little. I have a violent and physically demanding
> combat session just to find my keyboard some mornings. The wife got fed
> up with the mess around my computer, so she bought me a bigger desk, a
> filing cabinet, shelves, cd rack, and other toys. All it's done is
> encourage me to store even more near, next to and on my computer. I sit
> in the corner of the living room hidden behind piles of paper, disks and
> books - I suppose I really ought to get a life and tidy up occassionally
> - I might be able to find things that way. :-)

You to huh?


--Sedah Drol
---------
ATTN: Due to lack of Interest, tommorow has been cancelled.
---------
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 c++++>$ u+ P L+ E? W+>W+++ N o? k?
w+>w++++ O--- M-- V PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ x++ R++>+++$
b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 11
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: Get a CLUE
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:12:27 -0700
Am I correct in assuming that the mystery is "who killed the Shadowrunners"?

:)

-Graht
--
"Learn, Teach. Get, Give. Pass it on. Pass it on."
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Get a CLUE
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:55:45 EST
In a message dated 11/1/1999 3:13:04 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@****.org writes:

>
> Am I correct in assuming that the mystery is "who killed the
Shadowrunners"
> ?
>
You know, this is a good question. The "target of the investigation" might
be a good backdrop to these. Perhaps anyone else can put the "target" or
"victims" would be better actually, and the appropriate combinations
thereafter.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837

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