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Message no. 1
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:46:20 -0700 (PDT)
Hey Guys, I sent a message about this before but
didn't see it on any post.

What I'd like to do with this post is generate a forum
that will expand on the information already presented
in the Tir Tairngire and Shadows of North America
Sourcebooks regarding Portland. So, please feel free
to post your constructive ideas, etc. regarding
Portland, Tir Tairngire.

Also, I was wondering what became of the current MAX
light rail system in Portland by the time Portland was
rebuilt as Portland Tir Tairngire.

The current lightrail system runs from the airport
through downtown and out to Beaverton. It also runs
from Gresham out to Hillsboro, and from downtown up to
the Expo Center in North Portland (check out
www.trimet.org for full info.):

Blue Line
Hillsboro
City Center
Gresham

Red Line
Airport
City Center
Beaverton Transfer Center

Yellow Line
Expo Center
City Center

And I understand, the Yellow Line may be expanded
south to either Milwaukie or Lake Oswego.

The light rail runs along the streets, and along I-84,
and well as on subway tracks through the West Hills
(under the Zoo and Washington Park).

My question is, if Portland Tir Tairngire only has a
subway system that rings Downtown, what happened to
MAX? And does Portland Tir Tairngire have a bus
system? There's no mention of that in either the Tir
Tairngire Sourcebook or the Shadows of North America
Sourcebook.

And I'd imagine Portland would still have things like
all the parks, the zoo, the Rose Festival and
Starlight Parade.

Here's some more on Portland from
http://travel.roughguides.com/roughguides.html (of
course, modify the phone numbers appropriately to get
the right LTG numbers):

Portland
Having been spared the kind of aggressive, remorseless
development that many Seattle residents have come to
loathe, PORTLAND still retains a pleasant, small-city
feel, both for its well-preserved Beaux Arts
architecture and walkable urban core, as well as its
easygoing atmosphere. That said, there's not a lot to
keep intrepid tourists here for more than a day, with
most of the city's handful of major attractions
located within close walking distance of each other on
the short city blocks – half the size of most American
cities. On the other hand, while Portland's
unpretentious bohemian flavor may be lost on more
gung-ho travelers, the city remains an excellent spot
for casual visitors to slack around for weeks at a
time, with a wealth of good diners, microbreweries,
clubs, bookstores and coffee houses to keep you
occupied.

The city was named after Portland, Maine, following a
coin toss between its two East Coast founders in 1845
("Boston" was the other option). Its location on a
deep part of the Willamette River, just 78 miles from
the Pacific and surrounded by fertile valleys, made it
a perfect trading port, and it grew quickly, replacing
its clapboard houses with ornate facades and Gothic
gables. Nevertheless, throughout the nineteenth
century it remained a raunchy, bawdy place, notorious
for gambling, prostitution and opium dens. By the
1970s, Portland's historic buildings had decayed or
were sacrificed to parking lots and expressways, but
since then, it has salvaged what was left of its past,
replacing concrete with red brick, and introducing
folksy statues and murals. Although the city's
rehabilitation, along with its "urban growth boundary"
to limit unrestrained development, has done much for
Portland's reputation nationwide, most residents are
ambivalent about the praise and would prefer you move
anywhere – preferably Seattle – but here.

Arrival and information
Portland International Airport (PDX) is a
thirty-minute drive from downtown, by either the Gray
Line Airport Express bus (every 45min 5am–midnight;
$15; www.grayline.com), which drops off at major
hotels, or the cheaper MAX light-rail line (4 hourly,
7am–11.30pm; $1.55), which connects to the airport
near Terminal C and takes about forty minutes to reach
downtown. A cab from the airport into town costs
$25–30. Greyhound at 550 NW Sixth Ave and Amtrak close
by at 800 NW Sixth Ave are conveniently situ ated
within easy walking distance of the center; if you
arrive at night take a cab though – this part of town
is not safe after dark. Pacific Trails (tel
503/292-4437) runs buses from Portland to the Oregon
Coast.

The visitor center, by the river in the World Trade
Center, 26 SW Salmon St at Front Avenue (May–Oct daily
9am–5pm; Nov–Apr Mon–Fri 9am–5pm, Sat 10am–2pm, tel
503/275-9750 or 1-800/962-3700, www.pova.org), has
plenty of maps and information on both the city and
the state. Portland's main post office is at 715 NW
Hoyt St (tel 503/294-2124; zip code 97205).

Getting around
Although you can see much of the compact city center
on foot, or along the city's impressive, extensive
network of cycling paths and trails, Portland also has
an excellent public transit network. Portland's light
rail system, Metropolitan Area Express (MAX), moves
tourists around central downtown and Old Town, and
carries commuters over the river to the eastern
suburbs, also tunneling under Washington Park and the
zoo. The Tri-Met bus system is based at the downtown
transit mall along Fifth Avenue (southbound) and Sixth
Avenue (northbound). Each bus shelter is labeled with
a symbol – brown beaver, blue snowflake and so on –
serving as a code for a block of bus routes in a
particular area of the city. Although excellent for
transportation, the mall is not a place to linger:
it's well-known as a drug-dealing zone. The Tri-Met
Info Bureau on Pioneer Courthouse Square (Mon–Fri
8am–5pm; tel 503/238-7433, for disabled customers tel
503/238-4952, www.tri-met.org) offers free transit
maps and sells all-zone day tickets ($4), "Quik Tik"
six-hour passes ($3), books of ten tickets ($11.50),
and monthly passes ($45) with special student rates
($16). Buses and MAX trains are free in the downtown
zone – "Fareless Square" – edged by the Willamette to
the east, Irving Street to the north, and I-405 to the
south and west. Outside here, fares are between $1.05
and $1.55 – pay the bus driver exact change; transfers
for onward travel within the same zone (there are
three fare zones altogether) are free.

The brightly colored cars of the new Portland
Streetcar line ply a tourist-oriented route between
Portland State University and Northwest Portland,
covering most downtown sights on NW and SW 10th and
11th streets. Fares are free inside Fareless Square,
otherwise $1.25 (www.portlandstreetcar.org).
Portland's taxis don't stop in the street; you'll have
to either get one at a hotel or call (Broadway Cabs
tel 503/227-1234, Portland Taxi Co tel 503/256-5400).

Accommodation
Scads of flavorless motels line the interstates and
Sandy Boulevard northeast of the city center, but for
a few dollars more you're far better staying downtown,
where you'll find hostels, B&Bs and a good range of
hotels, the pick of which occupy grand and elegantly
restored old buildings.

Hotels, motels and B&Bs
Benson 309 SW Broadway tel 503/228-2000 or
1-888/523-6766, www.westcoasthotels.com/benson. The
typical spot for visiting dignitaries and celebs, this
classy hotel has a superb walnut-paneled 1912 lobby,
and swank bedrooms with modern appointments. $200–250.

Days Inn City Center 1414 SW 6th Ave tel 503/221-1611
or 1-800/899-0248, www.daysinn.com. Great location
with smart, well-tended motel rooms. Excellent value
for downtown. $100–130.

Edgefield 2126 SW Halsey Rd tel 503/669-8610 or
1-800/669-8610, www.mcmenamins.com/edge. Fifteen
minutes east of the airport, this unique
brewery-resort features a Georgian Manor, restaurants,
bars, winery and tasting room, distillery, movie
theater, gardens, and an 18-hole British golf course.
$75–100.

General Hooker's House B&B 125 SW Hooker St tel
503/222-4435 or 1-800/745-4135,
www.generalhookers.com. Four attractive Victorian
guestrooms, a 20-min walk from downtown. $75–100.

Heathman Hotel 1001 SW Broadway at Salmon St tel
503/241-4100 or 1-800/551-0011, www.heathmanhotel.com.
Occupies a finely restored Neoclassical building, with
an elegant, teak-paneled interior and much marble and
brass. Splendid rooms, excellent restaurant, and
popular lobby-lounge where you can swill among the
swells. $160–200.

Heron Haus 2545 NW Westover Rd tel 503/274-1846,
www.heronhaus.com. Stylish 1904 Tudor B&B, whose large
suites feature fireplaces and cozy sitting areas.
Excellent continental breakfast and close hiking
access to Portland's expansive Forest Park. $160–200.

Kennedy School 5736 NE 33rd Ave tel 503/249-3983 or
1-888/249-3983, www.mcmenamins.com/kennedy.
Thirty-five B&B rooms, each in a refurbished
schoolroom with chalkboards and cloakrooms, plus
modern conveniences. Excellent breakfast, multiple
brewpubs, movie theater, outdoor bathing pool, and
"detention bar." $100–130.

Mallory Hotel 729 SW 15th Ave tel 503/223-6311 or
1-800/228-6857, www.malloryhotel.com. Stylish lobby,
but rather plain – though affordable – rooms in this
old Portland favorite, well placed along the MAX
tracks. $100–130.

Vintage Plaza 422 SW Broadway tel 503/228-1212 or
1-800/243-0555, www.vintageplaza.com. An intimate
boutique hotel with oversized rooms and a calm,
relaxed atmosphere. Wine is offered in the afternoons
in the lobby. $130–160.

White Eagle Hotel 836 N Russell St tel 503/282-6810,
www.mcmenamins.com/eagle.html. Hands-down Portland's
best bargain, a refurbished old hotel converted into a
hip brewpub in an industrial-bohemian neighborhood.
Rooms are clean and simple, and surprisingly cheap.
Live music nightly. $35–50.

Hostels
HI-Portland 3031 SE Hawthorne Blvd tel 503/236-3380,
www.portlandhostel.com. Hostel facilities in a cheery
Victorian house, well located in the heart of the
Hawthorne District. Occasional live performances. $18
dorms, $45 private rooms.

HI-NW Portland International Hostel 1818 NW Glisan tel
503/241-2783, www.2oregonhostels.com. Located in a
nineteenth-century home in Northwest Portland, near
the popular Mission Theatre & Brewpub. Contains
espresso bar and family rooms. $19 dorms, private
rooms (only two) $50.

Eating
As in Seattle, Portland's Pacific Northwest cuisine is
a mix of international cooking styles and fresh
regional produce, and the city offers many excellent
dining options for all palates and pocketbooks.
Downtown, the Pearl District and Northwest Portland
have swank cocktail bars, sedate bistros, brewpubs and
Pacific-fusion and vegan-friendly restaurants, while
Hawthorne Boulevard has the best inexpensive grub and
ethnic restaurants. Downtown also has an abundance of
food carts that crank out Mexican food, Italian
panini, vegetarian Indian cuisine, and rice-bowl
bentos – typically cheap and tasty fare.

Bangkok Kitchen 2534 SE Belmont St tel 503/236-7349.
Forget the higher-priced joints downtown (two miles
west of here): this dreary-looking spot has Portland's
best – and cheapest – Thai food. And if you don't like
the ugly red-vinyl booths or kitschy decor, just order
take-out.

Bombay Cricket Club 1925 Hawthorne Blvd tel
503/231-0740. Not just another excellent Indian
restaurant, the Cricket Club also adds a
Muslim-inspired middle eastern element to the usual
fare. A mile west of the main Hawthorne scene.

Brasserie Montmartre 626 SW Park Ave tel 503/224-5552.
The city's most popular French bistro, with tasty
pasta and free live jazz on most evenings. The
favorite lunching spot for shoppers at nearby
Nordstrom.

Dot's Café 2521 SE Clinton St tel 503/235-0203. In the
center of the small-but-hip Clinton district, a cheap
late-night spot decked out in primo garage-sale decor,
offering the classic bacon cheese-burger, vegan
burritos and the best grilled-cheese sandwich in
Portland.

Higgins 1239 SW Broadway tel 503/222-9070. One of the
city's finest restaurants, where fresh Northwest
cuisine and scrumptious desserts are served in cozy
quarters just south of the city's main attractions.

Jake's Famous Crawfish 401 SW 12th Ave tel
503/226-1419. Portland's landmark restaurant for over
a hundred years. A staggering choice of fresh fish,
including Columbia River Sturgeon, Depot Bay Dungeness
Crab, and spicy crawfish cakes. The innocuous-sounding
"Bag of Chocolate" is an infamously delicious,
gut-busting dessert.

McCormick and Schmick's 235 SW 1st Ave at Oak St tel
503/224-7522. Excellent fish restaurant, with fresh
nightly specials and a lively oyster bar with a
happening singles scene. Entrees around $15.

Oba 555 NW 12th Ave tel 503/228-6161. Flashy, Nuevo
Latino eatery in the Pearl District that fuses flavors
from all over Latin America to create food you won't
find anywhere else in Portland.

Papa Haydn 701 NW 23rd Ave, Northwest Portland tel
503/223-7317. Expect at least a half-hour wait for a
table at this upscale eatery on weekend nights – worth
it for a taste of the hundred-odd desserts on the
menu, with the best on view behind glass.

Toney Bento 1423 SE 37th Ave tel 503/234-4441. A
lively Hawthorne spot with giant bowls of tasty,
inexpensive noodle concoctions, and delicious sushi –
made by a master first-generation chef.

Wildwood 1221 NW 21st Ave tel 503/248-9663. Trendy
Northwest Portland restaurant with a warm interior,
friendly staff and imaginative food. Fresh local
ingredients rule.

Drinking, nightlife and entertainment




Portland's smart cocktail lounges and dive bars easily
rival those of Seattle. The city is a beer-drinker's
haven, with over thirty local microbreweries.
BridgePort Ale House, 3632 SE Hawthorne Blvd (tel
503/233-6540), and BridgePort Brewing Co, 1313 NW
Marshall St (tel 503/241-3621), are two solid choices,
and the McMenamins"concept" brewpubs sell their own
locally-brewed ales in unique settings, such as former
schoolhouses and renovated hotels
(www.mcmenamins.com). The coffee-swilling scene looms
large, but without Seattle's ubiquitous coffee carts –
naturally, though, Starbucks is everywhere. For music,
the place to head is downtown, with the coolest venues
centered around Burnside.

The art scene in Portland revolves around the Portland
Center for the Performing Arts, 1111 SW Broadway (tel
503-248-4335 or 224-4000, www.pcpa.com), a dynamic
complex consisting of two main buildings – the Arlene
Schnitzer Concert Hall and the New Theater Building,
containing the Dolores Winningstad Theater and Newmark
Theater. The "Schnitz" is a sumptuously restored 1928
vaudeville and movie house that presents big musical
extravaganzas, opera and theater, hosting performances
by the Oregon Symphony Orchestra (tel 503/228-1353),
Portland Opera (tel 503/241-1407) and Oregon Ballet
Theater (tel 503/222-5538), amongst others. Several
blocks east at SW 3rd Avenue between Market and Clay
streets, the Ira Keller Auditorium (tel 503-274-6560)
is home to traveling musicals.

As for festivals, Portland State University hosts the
mid-July Portland International Performance Festival
(www.extended.pdx.edu/pipf) for contemporary dance and
theater productions. During the summer, free concerts
are held at Pioneer Courthouse Square, Tom McCall
Waterfront Park, and the zoo.

The free Willamette Week (www.wweek.com), available on
any street corner, carries listings of what's on and
where, as does the Friday edition of The Oregonian,
the main local newspaper (www.oregonian.com).

Bars, brewpubs and coffee houses




Café Lena 2239 SE Hawthorne Blvd tel 503/238-7087. A
mile west of the main Hawthorne district, this joint
attracts an alternative crowd for its open-mike poetry
and acoustic guitar performances. Late-night weekend
menu served until 1am.

Cobalt Lounge 32 NW 3rd Avenue tel 503/225-1003. A
fun, retro-style club in Old Town with stiff drinks
and a party crowd. Breakfast served from 4pm to 2am
daily.

Coffee People 533 NW 23rd Ave, Northwest Portland tel
503/221-0235. Splendid range of coffees – arguably the
best in town, though now part of a chain. Visually
striking spot attracts more locals – and fewer
motorcyclists – than the Starbucks across the street.

Embers 11 NW Broadway tel 503/222-3082. An often
crowded club with drag shows in the gay-oriented front
room and high-energy dancing in the straight-leaning
room in back. Cool fish-tank bar top.

Goose Hollow Inn and Tavern 1927 SW Jefferson St tel
503/228-7010. Great microbrews, the city's best Reuben
sandwich, and convenient location near the MAX tracks
(a mile west of downtown) make this a solid bet. Keep
watch for colorful owner Bud Clark, once the town
mayor.

Huber's 411 SW 3rd Ave tel 503/228-5686. Portland's
oldest bar is an elegant room with arched
stained-glass skylight, mahogany paneling and terrazzo
floor. Famous for roast turkey sandwiches and flaming
Spanish coffees.

Kell's 112 SW 2nd Ave tel 503/227-4057. A longstanding
favorite Irish bar, with fine authentic cuisine and a
range of microbrews, imported beers, and of course,
Irish (and Scotch) whiskey.

Lucky Lab Brewpub 915 SE Hawthorne Blvd tel
503/236-3555. Just across the river from downtown,
this unpretentious brewpub occupies a huge warehouse
space with an outdoor patio. Fresh ales, great
sandwiches, BBQ specials, and a delicious peanut curry
bento.

Produce Row 204 SE Oak St tel 503/232-8355. Be one of
the few tourists at this local favorite, stuck in an
unglamorous location by the railroad tracks, across
the river in an industrial zone, but boasting thirty
brews on tap and a nice range of live music.

Ringlers Annex 1223 SW Stark St tel 503/525-0520.
Great people-watching in the cavernous basement of the
ornate wedge-shaped 1917 Flatiron Building. Companion
bar, Ringlers, is two blocks away at 1332 W Burnside
St.

Shanghai Tunnel 211 SW Ankeny St tel 503/220-4001.
Located just off Burnside Street, this subterranean
bar is popular with hipsters and offers Asian-style
soul food.

The Tao of Tea 3430 SE Belmont St tel 503/736-0119.
More than 120 different kinds of teas are served in an
exquisite room with zen-like decor and a somewhat
pretentious air. Elegant meals of affordable vegan and
Indian food.

Tiger Bar 317 NW Broadway tel 503/222-7297. An
über-hip, swank lounge with a tiger-striped bar and
long banquettes. Dark, sultry and smoke-friendly, with
late-night food.

Music venues




Berbati's Pan 10 SW 3rd Ave tel 503/248-4579.
Mediterranean food is just the entrée, with pool,
pinball and ping pong, as well as a reconstructed
nineteenth-century European bar in back and nightly
eclectic music selections in the nightclub.

Crystal Ballroom 1332 W Burnside St tel 503/778-5625.
Just above the Ringlers bar, a nineteenth-century
dance hall with a "floating" floor on springs. Bands
range from hippie to hip-hop, local to national, and
feature the best of Portland's indie rock and good DJs
in "Lola's Room" upstairs.

Dante's 1 SW 3rd Ave tel 503/226-6630). Perhaps the
city's hippest nightspot, where cabaret acts and live
rock and electronica music are mixed in with the
lounge's signature "Karaoke from Hell" Mondays and
"Sinferno" Sunday strip shows.

Jazz de Opus 33 NW 2nd Ave tel 503/222-6077. Cozy,
low-key atmosphere with excellent live jazz and
grilled food. No cover most nights.

Ohm 31 NW 1st Ave tel 503/223-9919. Located near
Saturday market, a top spot for electronica and
hip-hop music, with both live acts and DJs. Weekends
are packed and stuffy, so come during midweek for a
more relaxed environment.

Parchman Farm 1204 SE Clay St tel 503/235-7831.
Located a half-mile across the river from downtown,
this intimate club features good pizza, great jazz,
and no cover.

Red Sea 318 SW 3rd Ave tel 503/241-5450. Dine on
African/Middle Eastern cuisine while you groove to
reggae and African tunes on weekends. Also offers the
occasional belly dancer.

Roseland Theater 8 NW 6th Ave tel 503/224-2038.
Located in one of the city's dicier corners, this is a
top spot for rock and alternative acts, drawing a
mostly young, tattooed and pierced crowd.

Satyricon 125 NW 6th Ave tel 503/243-2380. Diverse
acts with an emphasis on punk rock. Good bar food.

Saucebox 214 SW Broadway tel 503/241-3393. Easily
missable spot features great pan-Asian cuisine,
colorful cocktails, and eclectic nightly music that
attracts black-clad poseurs and serious hipsters.

Exploring Portland:
East of the river
While the west side of the Willamette River provided a
deep port, the east side was too shallow for shipping,
and so the area remained undeveloped for the first
fifty years of Portland's life. The Morrison Bridge
crept across at the end of the nineteenth century;
since then, most of Portland's population has lived
here at some point, in various neighborhoods that are
almost entirely residential. Perhaps the best reason
to venture in this direction is to walk or bike the
2.3-mile loop of the Eastbank Esplanade, a new
$30-million concourse that connects from the Hawthorne
to the Steel bridge on floating walkways and
cantilevered footpaths, offering striking views of
downtown and close-up perspectives on the city's
industrial zone. Near the south end of the esplanade,
the splashy exhibits of the Oregon Museum of Science
and Industry, 1945 SE Water Ave (June–Aug daily
9.30am–7pm, rest of year Tues–Sun 9.30am–5.30pm;
$6.50; www.omsi.edu), are primarily geared toward
children, with hundreds of interactive booths, toys
and kiosks aimed at those with only a sketchy
knowledge of science.

More appealing, two miles further east, the Hawthorne
District is Portland's best alternative culture zone.
With Hawthorne Boulevard as its axis between 34th and
45th streets, and dominated by the sparkly,
quasi-Moorish Bagdad Theatre/Brewpub at 37th street,
the area teems with bookstores, hip cafés, dive bars,
cheap ethnic restaurants, and as yet only a handful of
corporate chain stores. Six blocks north, Belmont
Avenue is a historic corridor thick with boutiques and
ethnic restaurants, centered around the neon lights of
the Avalon Theatre, at no. 3451, while a mile
southwest around 26th Avenue, Clinton Street is home
to several good diners, funky bars and vintage
clothiers (the best being Xtabay, at no. 2515).
Finally, only sports fans and conventioneers should
bother to visit the overly hyped Rose Quarter, west of
I-5 between the Steel and Broadway bridges
(www.rosequarter.com), where a green-spired convention
center and basketball stadium are the only points of
interest amid a clutch of overpriced restaurants and
dreary chain motels.

Old Town, Chinatown, Pearl District and Northwest
Portland
Old Town, the area around and just south of the
Burnside Bridge, is where Portland was founded in
1843. The area tended to flood, however, and when the
railroad came in 1883 the town center soon shifted
away; its big, ornate buildings became warehouses and
it plummeted down the social scale. These days,
missions for the homeless coexist with galleries,
brewpubs and boutiques. The Saturday Market (March–Dec
Sat 10am–5pm, Sun 11am–4.30pm;
www.portlandsaturdaymarket.com) packs the area south
of, and under, the Burnside Bridge with arts and
crafts stalls, eclectic street musicians, spicy foods
and lively crowds, all crammed cheek-to-jowl by the
MAX tracks. At First and Ankeny stands the Skidmore
Fountain, a bronze basin raised by caryatids above a
granite pool, designed to provide European elegance
for the citizens and water for hard-working
nineteenth-century horses. Across the fountain's
angular plaza, an ornamental colonnade stretches from
the side of the New Market Theater, a restored
theater-cum-vegetable market that is now full of
cafés. A few blocks west, the 24-Hour Church of Elvis,
720 SW Ankeny St ("most hours"; tel 503/226-3671,
www.churchofelvis.com; donation), is an
only-in-Portland attraction: a storefront,
walk-through maze of Styrofoam and plastic
monstrosities, many dedicated to Mr Presley. Church of
Elvis marriage certificates – and other Presley
paraphernalia – are usually available from the
coin-operated display in the window, and marriages can
be arranged, complete with a serenade from Portland's
premier Elvis impersonator.

Nearby along west Burnside, the ornamental gate at
Fourth Avenue marks Chinatown, once the second-largest
Chinese community in the US until white unemployment
in the 1880s led, as elsewhere, to racist attacks and
forced most Chinese workers to leave. There's still
enough of a community here to support a range of cheap
ethnic restaurants and bars, along with numerous rock
and dance clubs – this stretch is the city's nexus for
nightlife. Other notable sights include the American
Advertising Museum, 211 NW Fifth Ave (Wed–Sun
noon–5pm; $3), giving a fascinating account of the
rise of advertising, from posters to tapes of old
radio and TV ads, and the Classical Chinese Garden, NW
Third Ave at Everett (daily Apr–Oct: 9am–6pm; Nov–Mar
10am–5pm; $6), a Suzhou-styled garden with traditional
vegetation, ponds and walkways.

North of Burnside lies the chic Pearl District, an old
industrial zone now gentrified with upscale lofts,
galleries, restaurants and boutiques. The biggest
recent redevelopment is the so-called Brewery Blocks,
NW 11th Avenue between Burnside and Davis streets, a
monumental renovation of the former Blitz-Weinhard
brewery into high-end restaurants, retail shops and
condos. Nearby is the famous Powell's City of Books,
1005 W Burnside St (daily 9am–11pm; www.powells.com).
With over a million new, used and rare books, Powell's
occupies an entire block, as well as separate annexes
around town, and provides free maps so customers can
find their way around. At the store's Anne Hughes
Coffee Room (tel 503/228-4651), you can pore over a
book or magazine before you buy.

Further west, the Nob Hill district is better known to
locals as Northwest Portland, stretching from W
Burnside Street along a dozen blocks of NW 23rd and NW
21st avenue, choked with fine restaurants and
boutiques, where the population density is the state's
highest and the street parking is notoriously bad on
weekends. The assortment of multicolored Victorian
piles adds a San Franciscan tinge – and the food is as
good as it gets north of California.

West Hills and Washington Park
Directly west of Northwest Portland, the wooded bluffs
of the West Hills contain the massive Forest Park, the
country's largest urban green space, interlaced with
countless hiking trails, including the 26-mile loop of
the Wildwood Trail. Just to the south, the elegant
houses of Portland's wealthy include the ever-popular
Pittock Mansion, 3229 NW Pittock Drive (Feb–Dec
noon–4pm; $5; www.pittockmansion.com), a 1914
Renaissance Revival creation whose most attractive
attribute is its stunning – and free – view of the
city from the front lawn. Beyond the mansion, forested
Washington Park is home to a number of Portland's most
popular attractions. These include the expansive city
views from the International Rose Test Gardens (daily
7am–9pm; free), featuring a wide array of bright
summertime blooms; the tranquil Japanese Garden
(daily: Apr–Sept 10am–7pm; Oct–Mar 10am–4pm; $6;
www.japanesegarden.com), actually a collection of five
gardens with traditional ponds, bridges, foliage, and
sand patterns; and the Oregon Zoo (daily: Apr–Sept
9am–6pm; Oct–Mar 9am–4pm; $6.50; www.zooregon.org),
whose most unusual feature is its Elephant Museum,
detailing the biological and cultural history of
pachyderms – and decorated with a giant mastodon
skeleton. Close by, the rather staid World Forestry
Center (daily 10am–5pm; $4.50; www.worldforestry.org)
uses interactive exhibits to explain forest management
from a timber industry perspective. Most Washington
Park attractions have convenient access to a MAX
light-rail station, which is buried deep underground
and accessible only by elevator.




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Message no. 2
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:10:51 -0700 (PDT)
--- Scott Hiller <scotthiller2002@*****.com> wrote:
> Hey Guys, I sent a message about this before but
> didn't see it on any post.
>
> What I'd like to do with this post is generate a forum
> that will expand on the information already presented
> in the Tir Tairngire and Shadows of North America
> Sourcebooks regarding Portland. So, please feel free
> to post your constructive ideas, etc. regarding
> Portland, Tir Tairngire.

I have been thinking about this for some time actually. It is flat
out ridiculous for the SR developers to try and write sourcebooks for
every locale SR gamers live. What I think would be a far better
approach is to start a co-operative site akin to wikipedia.org, where
anyone can add to the content. People can log in and write about the
places they live, adding history, maps, or the like. They, along
with anyone else, can extrapolate to the SR setting as much or as
little as they like. A moderator (or three) could browse the growing
piles of data this would generate, making sure everything was indexed
properly, and deleting things which were entirely redundent (like two
people uploading the same tourism brochure or webpage about
Portland). Users who came across redundant information, or
information indexed poorly, could draw attention to it to help the
moderators out. Moderators would also have to take care and note
where an entry deviated from established SR material and metaplot.

======Korishinzo
--check out wikipedia.org for an idea of what I am talking about...
or just because it is a very cool site :)




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Message no. 3
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:50:46 -0400
On 11-Jun-04, at 12:10 PM, Ice Heart wrote:
>
> I have been thinking about this for some time actually. It is flat
> out ridiculous for the SR developers to try and write sourcebooks for
> every locale SR gamers live.

That's why they write them for locations that more than 3 people ask
for. ;-)

The wiki idea could be cool - dumpshock would probably be up for
hosting it, assuming some people volunteer to maintain it.

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 4
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:00:14 -0700
Adam Jury wrote:
>
> On 11-Jun-04, at 12:10 PM, Ice Heart wrote:
> >
> > I have been thinking about this for some time actually. It is flat
> > out ridiculous for the SR developers to try and write
> sourcebooks for
> > every locale SR gamers live.
>
> That's why they write them for locations that more than 3
> people ask for. ;-)
>
> The wiki idea could be cool - dumpshock would probably be up
> for hosting it, assuming some people volunteer to maintain it.
>
> Best,
> Adam
>

I could help with some of the upkeep, being in Portland, myself.

Zebulin

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 5
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark Shieh)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:55:34 -0700 (PDT)
--- zebulingod <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> Adam Jury wrote:
> >
> > On 11-Jun-04, at 12:10 PM, Ice Heart wrote:
> > >
> > > I have been thinking about this for some time actually. It is
> flat
> > > out ridiculous for the SR developers to try and write
> > sourcebooks for
> > > every locale SR gamers live.
> >
> > That's why they write them for locations that more than 3
> > people ask for. ;-)
> >
> > The wiki idea could be cool - dumpshock would probably be up
> > for hosting it, assuming some people volunteer to maintain it.

I wonder how many serious maintainers you would need for something as
large and cross-referenced as that. I'm also very afraid of the total
garbage you're going to get if people just start submitting non-canon
NPC concepts.





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Message no. 6
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:27:08 -0700 (PDT)
--- Mark Shieh <msde_shadowrn@*****.com> wrote:
> --- zebulingod <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> > Adam Jury wrote:
> > >
> > > On 11-Jun-04, at 12:10 PM, Ice Heart wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I have been thinking about this for some time actually. It
> is
> > flat
> > > > out ridiculous for the SR developers to try and write
> > > sourcebooks for
> > > > every locale SR gamers live.
> > >
> > > That's why they write them for locations that more than 3
> > > people ask for. ;-)
> > >
> > > The wiki idea could be cool - dumpshock would probably be up
> > > for hosting it, assuming some people volunteer to maintain it.
>
> I wonder how many serious maintainers you would need for something
> as
> large and cross-referenced as that. I'm also very afraid of the
> total
> garbage you're going to get if people just start submitting
> non-canon
> NPC concepts.

Tht is what your moderators are for. Among other things, you
discourage hard stats. I am envisioning a resource that is almost
purely flavor text, and predominantly geographical. We would want a
feel for the demographics of a city or region, not the specifics of
individual residents. Any GM can make NPCs. This would be a way to
generate game settings that tapped residents or frequent visitors of
those settings as they are today.

And yes, a fair amount of garbage is going to get submitted. That
goes with the territory. If it didn't, you really wouldn't need
moderators/editors.

======Korishinzo
--this could be a very cool, very open ended, very useful project




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Message no. 7
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 19:23:00 -0700
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:00:14 -0700
"zebulingod" <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> Adam Jury wrote:

> I could help with some of the upkeep, being in Portland, myself.
>
> Zebulin
>
> "Per Ardua ad Astra"

I'd be interested in helping out with things San Francisco
--Anders
Message no. 8
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:50:08 +1000
>> > > > I have been thinking about this for some time actually. It
>> is
>> > flat
>> > > > out ridiculous for the SR developers to try and write
>> > > sourcebooks for
>> > > > every locale SR gamers live.
>> > >
>> > > That's why they write them for locations that more than 3
>> > > people ask for. ;-)
>> > >
>> > > The wiki idea could be cool - dumpshock would probably be up
>> > > for hosting it, assuming some people volunteer to maintain it.
>
>> I wonder how many serious maintainers you would need for something
>> as
>> large and cross-referenced as that. I'm also very afraid of the
>> total
>> garbage you're going to get if people just start submitting
>> non-canon
>> NPC concepts.

>Tht is what your moderators are for. Among other things, you
>discourage hard stats. I am envisioning a resource that is almost
>purely flavor text, and predominantly geographical. We would want a
>feel for the demographics of a city or region, not the specifics of
>individual residents. Any GM can make NPCs. This would be a way to
>generate game settings that tapped residents or frequent visitors of
>those settings as they are today.

>And yes, a fair amount of garbage is going to get submitted. That
>goes with the territory. If it didn't, you really wouldn't need
>moderators/editors.
>

So if this does happen, what would the format be like? I'm starting to like
this idea too.
If it was printed up in a format similar to the first Seattle book, but for
each city/location, it might just work.
Too bad I don't have enough free time to be a mod.
Message no. 9
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:56:46 -0700 (PDT)
> So if this does happen, what would the format be like? I'm
> starting to like
> this idea too.
> If it was printed up in a format similar to the first Seattle book,
> but for
> each city/location, it might just work.
> Too bad I don't have enough free time to be a mod.

The format would be somewhat dictated by the available upload
methods. I highly recomend a visit to www.wikipedia.org for an idea
of what I am talking about in terms of a "shadowpedia". The wiki
code is all freeware, open source and readily available.

======Korishinzo
--thinking this idea might just take off





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Message no. 10
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:14:30 -0700 (PDT)
> So if this does happen, what would the format be
like? I'm
> starting to like
> this idea too.
> If it was printed up in a format similar to the
first Seattle book,
> but for
> each city/location, it might just work.
> Too bad I don't have enough free time to be a mod.

The format would be somewhat dictated by the available
upload
methods. I highly recomend a visit to
www.wikipedia.org for an idea
of what I am talking about in terms of a
"shadowpedia". The wiki
code is all freeware, open source and readily
available.

I think this is a great idea for the simple fact that
the SR developers wouldn't have to shell out more
money to produce/update a new book each year. AND for
the simple fact that such a set-up would give GM's a
resource that could be very valuable to them when they
want to set an adventure in a place they have not been
to before.

Just so these posts conform with the Shadowrun
universe, maybe some of the developers could be the
moderators/editors? I mean, if they have the time to
do so. Either way, I believe that would be the surest
way in which these forums would stick to the Shadowrun
universe and not go off on some tangent.

Now, someone mentioned having it be like the Seattle
Sourcebook, but it wouldn't have the specific NPC info
(are you referring to the parts in the Seattle
Sourcebook where they list an establishment like a
hotel or restaurant and give the Archetype, the
Manager's name, the Racial Bias [or lack there-of,
number of floors, etc?). If you are referring to that,
I think that actually helped add the local flavor. If
you're referring to some sourcebooks where the
developpers printed the NPCs' Attribute Ratings,
Skills, Gear, etc. then I wholeheartedly agree with
you that GMs are certainly capable of generating that
sort of info themselves.

All in all, I think a layout and design like the old
Seattle Sourcebook is just the thing that's needed,
including maps, demographic breakdown of the
districts, their geography & economics, the highlights
of the different Hotels, Restaurants & Bars,
Nightclubs, Etc. And Chapters on Crime, the local
Corporations and controling Megacorps. And finally
info on getting around and getting there.

The Roughguides website is a great resource from which
to draw, and I agree with the wikki (sp?) idea as far
as it being the place to post this stuff. Great ideas!
Let's make this happen! And it doesn't just have to be
limited to Portland. It could be for any city (New
York City, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Fran, Seattle,
Washington F.D.C. ... even foreighn cities like
London, Tokyo, Jerusalem, Rome, Cape Town, Bombay,
Buenos Aires, Mexico City, etc.) And it could even be
for small towns (ex: Taylorville, IL, UCAS)

-Scott




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Message no. 11
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:51:00 -0400
On 12-Jun-04, at 11:56 AM, Ice Heart wrote:

>
> The format would be somewhat dictated by the available upload
> methods. I highly recomend a visit to www.wikipedia.org for an idea
> of what I am talking about in terms of a "shadowpedia". The wiki
> code is all freeware, open source and readily available.

Any idea on which piece of Wiki software that should be used? I can
look into configuring the installation sometime over the next week. I'm
inclined to go with MediaWiki, the same flavour that Wikipedia uses,
simply because I've used it as a user and it uses PHP/mySQL.

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 12
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:50:45 +1000
>Now, someone mentioned having it be like the Seattle
>Sourcebook, but it wouldn't have the specific NPC info
>(are you referring to the parts in the Seattle
>Sourcebook where they list an establishment like a
>hotel or restaurant and give the Archetype, the
>Manager's name, the Racial Bias [or lack there-of,
>number of floors, etc?). If you are referring to that,
>I think that actually helped add the local flavor. If
>you're referring to some sourcebooks where the
>developpers printed the NPCs' Attribute Ratings,
>Skills, Gear, etc. then I wholeheartedly agree with
>you that GMs are certainly capable of generating that
>sort of info themselves.

>All in all, I think a layout and design like the old
>Seattle Sourcebook is just the thing that's needed,
>including maps, demographic breakdown of the
>districts, their geography & economics, the highlights
>of the different Hotels, Restaurants & Bars,
>Nightclubs, Etc. And Chapters on Crime, the local
>Corporations and controling Megacorps. And finally
>info on getting around and getting there.

That was the basic idea. Have the "offical" write up of
a location, then have others post the shadowtalk. I
think I still have a writeup for Boise somewhere...

The only sourcebooks I know of that posted NPCs to go
along with the location were adventures.
Message no. 13
From: mestre_bira@***.com.br (Bira)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:08:06 +0000
Scott Hiller wrote:

> Oh, almost forgot, however you guys choose to
> implement this idea, I think a goal needs to be to
> make it as user-friendly as possible! It should be
> simple as pie for people to upload/download
> information, and it should be just as easy for the
> editors to weed out anything that was posted that did
> not pertain to the Shadowrun Universe. Do you guys
> think a PDF format would work for downloading? What
> would work for uploading?: An e-mail-type of
> interface?

Wikis are web-sites, so all their editing and viewing is done via
browser. You edit stuff using a form page, and view it as you would any
other web site.

Bira
Message no. 14
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 16:57:37 -0700 (PDT)
On 12-Jun-04, at 11:56 AM, Ice Heart wrote:
>
> The format would be somewhat dictated by the
available upload
> methods. I highly recomend a visit to
www.wikipedia.org for an idea
> of what I am talking about in terms of a
"shadowpedia". The wiki
> code is all freeware, open source and readily
available.

Any idea on which piece of Wiki software that should
be used? I can
look into configuring the installation sometime over
the next week. I'm
inclined to go with MediaWiki, the same flavour that
Wikipedia uses,
simply because I've used it as a user and it uses
PHP/mySQL.

Best,
Adam

Oh, almost forgot, however you guys choose to
implement this idea, I think a goal needs to be to
make it as user-friendly as possible! It should be
simple as pie for people to upload/download
information, and it should be just as easy for the
editors to weed out anything that was posted that did
not pertain to the Shadowrun Universe. Do you guys
think a PDF format would work for downloading? What
would work for uploading?: An e-mail-type of
interface?

Or (this just occurred to me): Maybe, if someone posts
something that has nothing to do with the Shadowrun
Universe with regards to a particular location, the
editors could incorporate it INTO the piece as a
misguided bit of info ... you know, like they used to
do in the old Seattle Sourcebook? What do you think?

-Scott




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Message no. 15
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 20:07:51 -0400
On 13-Jun-04, at 7:57 PM, Scott Hiller wrote:
]
> Oh, almost forgot, however you guys choose to
> implement this idea, I think a goal needs to be to
> make it as user-friendly as possible! It should be
> simple as pie for people to upload/download
> information, and it should be just as easy for the
> editors to weed out anything that was posted that did
> not pertain to the Shadowrun Universe. Do you guys
> think a PDF format would work for downloading? What
> would work for uploading?: An e-mail-type of
> interface?

I think if you are asking these questions, you have not yet made any
effort yet to see how Wiki software actually works ;-)

All Wiki editing is done via the web. Check out wikipedia.org for an
excellent example.

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 16
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark Shieh)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 02:36:05 -0700 (PDT)
> The format would be somewhat dictated by the available upload
> methods. I highly recomend a visit to www.wikipedia.org for
> an idea of what I am talking about in terms of a
> "shadowpedia". The wiki code is all freeware, open source
> and readily available.

Forgive me if it sounds like I'm covering the extreme basics, but I
wanted to make sure everyone understands my concerns.

I still want to know what you plan on doing when you get multiple
contributors for a topic. I've seen just two GMs try to agree on
stuff,
and it can get messy pretty quickly. There's just no room for so many
creative ideas without a place getting pretty ridiculous. You can only
add so many AA megacorps to downtown, present day buildings can only
become owned by one organization, etc. I have seen wiki applied to
create items such as manuals and references, where there is a clear
sense of whether something is correct. I do not understand how it can
be applied to a community-based freeform creative writing project.

In open source software projects, you need a "keeper of the canon", so
to speak. In the linux kernel, this is of course done by Linus. If he
says it should be in the kernel, it goes in. If not, it's not ready to
go in and you're out of luck. Your options are generally to drop the
idea, to rewrite it and see if Linus likes it better, or to make your
own version of the kernel where you are the "keeper of the canon".
This
can't be done by committee, and a project will fall apart or splinter
very quickly if this person does not have enough authority and strength
of personality to convince others to join them.

Finally, if it's a community based work, the only way I can see this
working is if the creative process works something like this:

1) A location, orgainzation, etc. is proposed on a forum.
2) People toss the idea around until it starts to take shape.
3) The people active on a topic can sign up for shared ownership.
4) An entry is only considered fully accepted by the wiki if none of
the owners veto it.
5) Poorly behaving owners are removed by the moderators.
6) Additional owners are added by posting in the topic, subject to
moderation.
7) Unaccepted entries are not, by default, visible.

I must point out that despite my negativity, I am pretty excited by
this
project, and feel that it has a lot of potential. I'm worried about
what appears to me as a big pink elephant in the room that no one else
wants to discuss. The stuff in the proposed wiki really has to have
ownership, or there are going to be a lot of little conflicts as people
try to shape things according to their vision.

I'm going to take San Francisco as an example, because I lived there
for
3 years, and it's the most interesting place that I've lived in. There
are two major bridges in San Francisco, the Bay Bridge leading to
Oakland, and the Golden Gate Bridge, leading to Marin County. I type
the fastest and write something uninspired, such as claiming that the
Bay Bridge has fallen into disrepair, and is now the home of squatters
who have been adding makeshift living quarters to it. Anders has a
different idea for the bridge, equally interesting but totally
incompatible, but gets to the wiki an hour later. To my understanding,
he has two options, he can not submit it, or he can overwrite my
version
of the bridge. Now, in the case of traditional wiki, Anders and I can
compare notes and decide which one of us did a better job, possibly
taking the best of both elements and collaborating. More importantly,
we are likely to have the same idea, and are simply trying to put the
idea onto paper. In a shadowpedia, both of us are more likely to feel
that our creative idea should be better, and will advocate our ideas.
Neither of us have really done anything inappropriate to call for
moderation, but the only way I know for us to resolve the issue without
a single authority figure is to force everyone who comes along to vote
on it, or something. To me, it is both unacceptable for two, totally
different, Bay Bridge ideas in the wiki, and to make every single one
of
these little conflicts be resolved by a vote. You either make Anders,
myself, or assign one of the moderators to be the owner of the Bay
Bridge, and everyone else gets stuck trying to convince the owner to
add
elements of his idea. I would love to hear alternatives, or just
reasons why a community based creative project with only moderators for
unacceptable behaviour will work, but really don't think this is an
issue to be brushed aside.

Wikipedia has a system for this, but it's much harder in a creative
project:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikiquette
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution
However, in wikipedia, there is generally room for multiple articles on
a specific topic. In shadowpedia, there are many cases where you
simply
cannot accept multiple articles.

Mark





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Message no. 17
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:28:18 -0400
On 14-Jun-04, at 5:36 AM, Mark Shieh wrote:
>
> I still want to know what you plan on doing when you get multiple
> contributors for a topic.

This topic is certainly very open for discussion. FWIW, I don't think
there is any "you" yet; aside from me volunteering to setup and
maintain the tech portion of the Wiki, nobody [that I can recall] has
jumped up to say "I want to help run this" beyond some people saying
"I'll contribute some stuff."

> I've seen just two GMs try to agree on
> stuff,
> and it can get messy pretty quickly. There's just no room for so many
> creative ideas without a place getting pretty ridiculous. You can only
> add so many AA megacorps to downtown, present day buildings can only
> become owned by one organization, etc. I have seen wiki applied to
> create items such as manuals and references, where there is a clear
> sense of whether something is correct. I do not understand how it can
> be applied to a community-based freeform creative writing project.

Well, I think there should be a two- or even more-pronged approach
taking.

San Franc, page 1: A brief outline of published material on San Fran,
including the basic details [population, list of major corp presence,
etc]. Nothing non-canon on this page.

San Fran, Page 2: Material that expands and extrapolate on the canon
material, but does not contradict it.

San Fran, Page 3: Alternate San Fran material that blatantly
contradicts canon.

However, I do agree that some amount of planning and direction needs to
happen; I wouldn't want to see this become a mire of stupid

> No, Bob is a great guy!
> Jim

> Jim, you're a toad!
> Sam

and petty infighting shadowcomments :)

In a later part of your post, you state that you don't believe multiple
versions of an area should be in the Wiki - could you elaborate on
that? I know I'd like to avoid something like "Bay Bridge Version 1"
and "Bay Bridge Version 2" posted within a single article; that doesn't
help form a solid groundwork to build on.

> Finally, if it's a community based work, the only way I can see this
> working is if the creative process works something like this:
>
> 1) A location, orgainzation, etc. is proposed on a forum.

Well, we obviously have ShadowRN, which is a good place to talk about
it, especially as it may get input from people who are not already
active in the Wiki, and :Talk pages within the wiki itself.

> 2) People toss the idea around until it starts to take shape.
> 3) The people active on a topic can sign up for shared ownership.

Is there a function within any particular piece of Wiki software that
handles this? I pulled MediaWiki down to my Powerbook last night but
haven't had chance to mess around with it, yet.

> I must point out that despite my negativity, I am pretty excited by
> this
> project, and feel that it has a lot of potential. I'm worried about
> what appears to me as a big pink elephant in the room that no one else
> wants to discuss. The stuff in the proposed wiki really has to have
> ownership, or there are going to be a lot of little conflicts as people
> try to shape things according to their vision.

I'm personally rather concerned about the legal implications of
ownership of the material; one of the reasons I would like to segregate
canon summations and new material is so the new material could be
released under an Open license of some sort.

BTW, I'm leaning towards calling the thing SixthWorldWiki, so it can be
readily usable for other Shadowrun-related projects, but still
indicates that it's about the Sixth World in general.

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 18
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
--- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:

> On 14-Jun-04, at 5:36 AM, Mark Shieh wrote:
> >
> > I still want to know what you plan on doing when you get multiple
> > contributors for a topic.

> This topic is certainly very open for discussion. FWIW, I don't
> think there is any "you" yet; aside from me volunteering to setup
> and maintain the tech portion of the Wiki, nobody [that I can
> recall] has jumped up to say "I want to help run this" beyond some
> people saying "I'll contribute some stuff."

I want to help run this. :)

I'll also contribute some stuff.

> San Franc, page 1: A brief outline of published material on San
> Fran, including the basic details [population, list of major corp
> presence, etc]. Nothing non-canon on this page.
>
> San Fran, Page 2: Material that expands and extrapolate on the
> canon material, but does not contradict it.
>
> San Fran, Page 3: Alternate San Fran material that blatantly
> contradicts canon.
>
> However, I do agree that some amount of planning and direction
> needs to happen; I wouldn't want to see this become a mire of
stupid

I envision a setup where things are clearly divided into "History"
(location data circa 2004) and "Current" (fictional extrapolation to
SR timeframe). There should not be much in the way of conflict in
the 'history' section. In the 'current' section, which is all
fictional, everything can be treated as rumors and heresay about the
place. Shadowtalk by runners. GMs using the resource can decide
which version of the the 'current' info they want for their game. I
see NO reason to restrict the creativity of the contibuting
community, and no reason why we need ahve only one fictional version
of anything. Each entry under "Current" can be treated as a post by
a different shadow personality. Everyone gets to be Captain Chaos
for their own version of a given location. :)

> In a later part of your post, you state that you don't believe
> multiple versions of an area should be in the Wiki - could you
> elaborate on that? I know I'd like to avoid something like "Bay
> Bridge Version 1" and "Bay Bridge Version 2" posted within a
> single article; that doesn't help form a solid groundwork to build
> on.

Except we can have vs 1 and 2 in the same article. Make sure each is
clearly contained under the "Current" (i.e. fictional) heading, and
have as many version as people care to post. Delete the posts that
are entirely (or very nearly) redundant. If 5 people upload a Bay
Bridge version that has very similar information, you cut out all the
overlap, and include any discrete info as 'shadowtalk' blurbs.
Whenever you have two versions that diverge greatly, leave them as
entirely seperate sub-entries, and let your readers decide which
version they like. They can even decide to use both, one true in
20xx, and the other true in 20xx+y, to create a sense of evolving
scenery. This can allow them to hand a player info on what their
character "knows" about the Bay Bridge when he fled the city years
ago, and have them experience the strangeness of coming home to find
it alll changed. How often does that get used in movies and stories?
The protagonist comes home to find ownership changed, buildings torn
down, new developments grown up, etc. Faces change (Payback),
neighborhoods change (Grosse Point Blank), and so on...

Our shadowpedia can provide to users as much, or as little, of that
as they want.

> I'm personally rather concerned about the legal implications of
> ownership of the material; one of the reasons I would like to
> segregate canon summations and new material is so the new material
> could be released under an Open license of some sort.

I would like to see as little 'cannon' as possible. Why reinvent the
wheel? There is no need to republish works already available in
sourcebooks. We would not be competing with FanPro here, but
complementing their creative efforts. Most GMs already take a great
deal of creative liberty with published cannon materials. All
shadowpedia would do was give them a forum to share that creativity.
For the most part, cannon material should be referenced by pointing
the reader to the appropriate sourcebook, keeping excerpts brief and
succinct.

> BTW, I'm leaning towards calling the thing SixthWorldWiki, so it
> can be readily usable for other Shadowrun-related projects, but
> still indicates that it's about the Sixth World in general.

Sounds good to me. :)

======Korishinzo
--Did I mention that I've thought about this a lot? ;>




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Message no. 19
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:45:05 -0700
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> --- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
>
> > > I would like to see as little 'cannon' as possible. Why reinvent the
> wheel? There is no need to republish works already available in
> sourcebooks. We would not be competing with FanPro here, but
> complementing their creative efforts. Most GMs already take a great
> deal of creative liberty with published cannon materials. All
> shadowpedia would do was give them a forum to share that creativity.
> For the most part, cannon material should be referenced by pointing
> the reader to the appropriate sourcebook, keeping excerpts brief and
> succinct.
> ======> Korishinzo

Of course, taking the San Francisco example, the main Canon texts are
permanantly out of print, being NAGNA and California Dreaming. We would want
to recap or overwrite that material, as it's kind of basic. I have a little
material for S.F. myself, of course.
--Anders
Message no. 20
From: pentaj2@********.edu (John C. Penta)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:20:14 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Anders Swenson <anders@**********.com>
Date: Monday, June 14, 2004 1:45 pm
Subject: Re: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire


> Of course, taking the San Francisco example, the main Canon texts are
> permanantly out of print, being NAGNA and California Dreaming. We
> would want
> to recap or overwrite that material, as it's kind of basic. I have
> a little
> material for S.F. myself, of course.
> --Anders


I assume you mean the CFS SB?

My view: Try to keep to canon. It allows everybody to have some common ground for
discussion.
Message no. 21
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:39:22 -0400
On 14-Jun-04, at 2:20 PM, John C. Penta wrote:

> My view: Try to keep to canon. It allows everybody to have some common
> ground for discussion.

I think building from a canon base is absolutely the way to go when
creating fan material for RPG; the further you deviate from canon,
especially from the 'core' parts of whatever you're building, the less
likely it is to be useful to the majority of people.

That said, I favour - for fan-based material - working on areas of the
world that aren't under active development. With Saito and other
developments in CFS, it makes more sense to me to focus on UCAS cities
that don't have active plot-threads going: New York, the cities in the
south-east, Boston, etc.

Best,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 22
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
> I think building from a canon base is absolutely the way to go when
> creating fan material for RPG; the further you deviate from canon,
> especially from the 'core' parts of whatever you're building, the
> less likely it is to be useful to the majority of people.

I agree, to an extent. The problem is, much of the cannon material
makes no sense. The "it was destroyed in the night of rage/crash of
'29" excuse is wearing a bit thin, IMO. I realize it was less
convenient to find information about a city in the late 80's and
early 90's than it is today. I can build a decent working knowledge
of a city's layout and hotspots in a half an hour with mapquest and a
city's web pages (tourism council and business association pages are
great for this). However, the problem remains; as was demonstrated
by the thread that started this; that SR cannon is entirely
inadequate to our purposes in some cases. The original game
developers simply did not include enough local flavor for the
settings they covered, for whatever reasons. (This is not a
criticism, just a statement of fact.)

> That said, I favour - for fan-based material - working on areas of
> the world that aren't under active development. With Saito and
> other developments in CFS, it makes more sense to me to focus on
> UCAS cities that don't have active plot-threads going: New York,
> the cities in the south-east, Boston, etc.

This is a good idea. As I said before, my idea is not to compete
with the game developers, but to complement their efforts. Once a
sourcebook is released, however, I think that avoiding it is no
longer necessary. If anything, references to the new sourcebook in
the shadowpedia could spur sales. :)

======Korishinzo
--so, when do we get started? :>




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Message no. 23
From: datwinkdaddy@*******.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:44:08 -0500
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 02:36:05 -0700 (PDT), Mark Shieh
<msde_shadowrn@*****.com> wrote:

> In open source software projects, you need a "keeper of the canon", so
> to speak. In the linux kernel, this is of course done by Linus. If he
> says it should be in the kernel, it goes in. If not, it's not ready to
> go in and you're out of luck. Your options are generally to drop the
> idea, to rewrite it and see if Linus likes it better, or to make your
> own version of the kernel where you are the "keeper of the canon".
> This
> can't be done by committee, and a project will fall apart or splinter
> very quickly if this person does not have enough authority and strength
> of personality to convince others to join them.

Actually, I'm pretty sure the debian project does "keep the cannon" by
committee. It would be fairly simple to have all the moderators (or more
or less privaleged users) vote on two (or more) conflicting articles
(preferrably using a voting system better than US elections <URL:
http://electionmethods.org/ >) and then implement the decision. Of
course, something that could be supported by official cannon would win by
default over something that can't (no going to a vote).

--
Da Twink Daddy
ICQ: 514984; YM: DaTwinkDaddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Message no. 24
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:22:12 -0700
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:39:22 -0400
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
>
> On 14-Jun-04, at 2:20 PM, John C. Penta wrote:
>
> > My view: Try to keep to canon. It allows everybody to have some common
> > ground for discussion.
>
> I think building from a canon base is absolutely the way to go when
> creating fan material for RPG; the further you deviate from canon,
> especially from the 'core' parts of whatever you're building, the less
> likely it is to be useful to the majority of people.
>
> That said, I favour - for fan-based material - working on areas of the
> world that aren't under active development. With Saito and other
> developments in CFS, it makes more sense to me to focus on UCAS cities that
> don't have active plot-threads going: New York, the cities in the
> south-east, Boston, etc.
>
No, the basic city will remain the same despite superficial political
changes, and I don't want to hold up my favorite parts of the world because
somebody might or not publish something two or three years down the pike. If
Fanpro were a little less glacial in its progress, I'd feel differently.
--Anders
Message no. 25
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 10:11:42 +1000
>> > My view: Try to keep to canon. It allows everybody to have some common
>> > ground for discussion.
>>
>> I think building from a canon base is absolutely the way to go when
>> creating fan material for RPG; the further you deviate from canon,
>> especially from the 'core' parts of whatever you're building, the less
>> likely it is to be useful to the majority of people.
>>
>> That said, I favour - for fan-based material - working on areas of the
>> world that aren't under active development. With Saito and other
>> developments in CFS, it makes more sense to me to focus on UCAS cities
that
>> don't have active plot-threads going: New York, the cities in the
>> south-east, Boston, etc.
>
>No, the basic city will remain the same despite superficial political
>changes, and I don't want to hold up my favorite parts of the world because
>somebody might or not publish something two or three years down the pike.
If
>Fanpro were a little less glacial in its progress, I'd feel differently.

Glacial or not, it's better then nothing. That said, we have Adam and Kori
as mods so far.
Anyone else? And who's going to cover what initially?

And I might have another order for you shortly along with the IOU, Anders.
Message no. 26
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:15:38 -0700 (PDT)
> Glacial or not, it's better then nothing. That said, we have Adam
> and Kori as mods so far. Anyone else? And who's going to cover
> what initially?

Personally, I would rather have sourcebooks at a glacial pace, than
15 reprints. :)

Sounds like Adam is handling the technical aspects, and has worked
with wiki ware before. I have not, except the little I have used
wikipedia. I'll leave the technical aspects to him, and stand ready
to plunge in when we get some actual content to moderate/edit. :)

I think Zebulin said he was interested in getting his hands dirty on
the project as well. That seems like enough heads/hands to at least
get started. We'll pull in more people as things roll along, I am
sure.

======Korishinzo
--"Huney, dis could be da beginnins of a be-ootaful relashenship."




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Message no. 27
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark Shieh)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:23:53 -0700 (PDT)
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Adam Jury
> This topic is certainly very open for discussion. FWIW, I don't think

> there is any "you" yet; aside from me volunteering to setup and
> maintain the tech portion of the Wiki, nobody [that I can recall] has

> jumped up to say "I want to help run this" beyond some people saying
> "I'll contribute some stuff."

It was sort of a communal "you", and I'm interested in this as well. I
just want to try to grab Adam's arm and hold him back before he throws
up a wiki and try to figure out stuff like a format, submission
guidelines, dispute resolution, and the purpose of a moderator before
people start posting stuff.

Mark




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Message no. 28
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark Shieh)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:53:53 -0700 (PDT)
Oops, I hit send too soon!

> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Adam Jury
> On 14-Jun-04, at 5:36 AM, Mark Shieh wrote:
> Well, I think there should be a two- or even more-pronged approach
> taking.
>
> San Franc, page 1: A brief outline of published material on San Fran,

> including the basic details [population, list of major corp presence,

> etc]. Nothing non-canon on this page.
>
> San Fran, Page 2: Material that expands and extrapolate on the canon
> material, but does not contradict it.
>
> San Fran, Page 3: Alternate San Fran material that blatantly
> contradicts canon.

Something like this would be nice. I could see contradictory material
on page 3, but I don't feel it makes sense for pages 1 and 2.

> and petty infighting shadowcomments :)

Hee hee, I miss those when they're done with restraint.

> In a later part of your post, you state that you don't
> believe multiple
> versions of an area should be in the Wiki - could you elaborate on
> that? I know I'd like to avoid something like "Bay Bridge Version 1"
> and "Bay Bridge Version 2" posted within a single article;
> that doesn't
> help form a solid groundwork to build on.

That's pretty much as far as my thoughts go. I have no idea what
format
this book will take, unless we decide to lift the format of the
existing
location books. In the existing books, they generally describe people,
places, and organizations, and a timeline. Taking the Bay Bridge as
the
example again, we could apply your 3 page idea in a format like this:

Page 1: This would describe the location in two ways.
1a: Circa 2004, with possible links to external web sites.
"see http://www.mtc.ca.gov/projects/bay_bridge/bbmain.htm "
1b: Circa 205x, with a summary, but primarily done by referencing
canon
sourcebook pages.
"Replaced by a maglev line, (CFS, p. 67)"

Page 2: This could be agreed on by committee I suppose, taking the
single best entry from Page 3. First submission wins by default, and
any changes would require some sort of vote.

Page 3: This page could consist of a series of unrelated versions of
the Bay Bridge 205x, some of which expand upon the canon, and some of
which deviate completely from it. Here is where multiple ideas can be
combined, and where works in progress can be kept.

As far as ownership and multiple submissions go, I would suggest that
only one version of page 1 and page 2 would be presented to users,
while
page 3 can contain as many articles as there are submissions, unless an
author requests removal because a new version is submitted, or a
successful merging of ideas has occurred with someone else's article.
Most users are only going to look at page 3 and have something to say
if
they feel that totally inappropriate material has shown up in an
article.

> > Finally, if it's a community based work, the only way I can
> see this
> > working is if the creative process works something like this:
> >
> > 1) A location, orgainzation, etc. is proposed on a forum.
>
> Well, we obviously have ShadowRN, which is a good place to talk about

> it, especially as it may get input from people who are not already
> active in the Wiki, and :Talk pages within the wiki itself.

ShadowRN is a good place for projects to take off, but if this one is
successful, we'll probably get a bunch of people begging us to take it
to our own list or forum. Also, when I made this list, it wasn't a
checklist so much as a description of a process.

> > 2) People toss the idea around until it starts to take shape.
> > 3) The people active on a topic can sign up for shared ownership.
>
> Is there a function within any particular piece of Wiki software that

> handles this? I pulled MediaWiki down to my Powerbook last night but
> haven't had chance to mess around with it, yet.

My own personal experiences with wiki only consist of reading existing
wiki pages, usually the manuals of open source software. I'm guessing
that if we can keep the number of topics to a sane enough number that
the creation of new pages can be limited to just the moderators, then
posting access can be handed out in a sane manner. Unprivileged users
are invited to submit new articles to page 3 of a new topic, privileged
users are given edit rights to all 3 pages, and only moderators can
create new pages.

> I'm personally rather concerned about the legal implications of
> ownership of the material; one of the reasons I would like to
> segregate
> canon summations and new material is so the new material could be
> released under an Open license of some sort.

Eww! Don't want to touch this one.

Mark




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Message no. 29
From: quemener.yves@****.fr (Yves Quemener)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:11:03 +0200
Hello everyone, I have been lurking in the archives of this mailing list
from a long time and this is my first post. I had to react when I saw
people speaking about a wiki that would be a "shadowpedia". Believe it
or not, this is the name I chose of a wiki I have put into place a week
ago and that I intended to fill a bit before showing it to everyone. If
this interest you, the address is http://shadowpedia.free.fr

I plan to use a licensing format similar to the wikipedia(GNU Free
Documentation License), with the wizkid legal disclaimer being an
invariant section.

Please tell me what you think of it.

Iv
Message no. 30
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:08:56 -0400
On 15-Jun-04, at 4:23 AM, Mark Shieh wrote:

> It was sort of a communal "you", and I'm interested in this as well. I
> just want to try to grab Adam's arm and hold him back before he throws
> up a wiki and try to figure out stuff like a format, submission
> guidelines, dispute resolution, and the purpose of a moderator before
> people start posting stuff.

Oh trust me; I wasn't about to do a damned thing until we've worked
through some of these issues. :-)

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 31
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:08:56 -0400
From: Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com>
To: Shadowrun Discussion
<shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Message-ID:
<C70EE298-BEC4-11D8-9D9D-000A95C47D70@*********.com>
In-Reply-To:
<20040615082353.2194.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>
References:
<20040615082353.2194.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII;
format=flowed
MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v618)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Precedence: list
Message: 13


On 15-Jun-04, at 4:23 AM, Mark Shieh wrote:

> It was sort of a communal "you", and I'm interested
in this as well.
I
> just want to try to grab Adam's arm and hold him
back before he
throws
> up a wiki and try to figure out stuff like a format,
submission
> guidelines, dispute resolution, and the purpose of a
moderator before
> people start posting stuff.

Oh trust me; I wasn't about to do a damned thing until
we've worked
through some of these issues. :-)

Best,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental ::
http://tss.dumpshock.com

The original Shadowrun Sourcebooks, like the original
Seattle Sourcebook, were set up like an old on-line
document to simulate a Matrix interface. This seems to
have advanced in design since then. It'd be cool to
think along those lines as far as layout is concerned.

As far as an outline. I think it'd be very useful to
follow the basic Outline of the old Seattle Sourcebook
I. Welcome to (Name of Sprawl, City, State,
City-State, Province, or Parish)
II. Facts At Your Fingertips
A. When To Go
B. Traveling To (Name of Sprawl, City, State,
City-State, Province, or Parish)
a. Plane
b. Automobile or Bus
c. Train
d. Boat
C. What Will It Cost?
a. Modest Expenses for One Person
D. Getting Around
a. Air
b. Car
c. Ferry
d. Bus
e. Monorail/Subway/Elevated/Lightrail Train
E. Major Businesses and Chains
a. Department Stores
1. Luxury
2. First Class
3. Family Style
4. No Frills
b. Groceries and Convenience Stores
1. Luxury
2. First Class
3. Family Style
4. No Frills
c. Restaurants and Fast Food Places
1. Luxury
2. First Class
3. Family Style
4. No Frills
d. Hotels
1. Luxury
2. First Class
3. Family Style
4. No Frills
e. Computers and ELectronics
1. Luxury
2. First Class
3. Family Style
4. No Frills
f. Body Enhancement Centers
1. Luxury
2. First Class
3. Family Style
4. No Frills
F. Tourist Information
a. (Sourrounding Area)
b. Legal Assistance
c. Medical Assistance
d. Chips and Alcohol
e. Entertainment
III. History
(This would outline events specific to the City,
State, City-State, Province, or Parish at hand)
IV. Downtown
A. Downtown At A Glance
B. Geography And Demographics
C. Politics
D. Economy
E. Neighborhoods (describe at least 7 major ones and
their security codes, then list all the others wit
htheir security codes)
F. Places Of Interest (List the Establishment
Archetype/Address/Owner, Manager, etc./Any Racial
Bias/LTG#.)
a. Hotels
b. Restaurants & Bars
c. Nightclubs
d. (A Local Attraction like the Seattle Center)
e. All Other locations (Malls,
Theaters/Playhouses, Libraries, Amusement Parks,
Sports Centers and Arenas, Places of Culture and
Science, Other Popular Local Attractions,
Universities, Landmarks, YMCA's
f. The Airport(s)
g. Government Buildings
h. Businesses
i. Medical
j. Miscellaneous (Body Shops, Nukit Burgers,
Stuffer Shacks, Weapons World, Fast Freddie's Surgery,
etc.)
V. (District 1)
A. District 1 At A Glance
B. Geography And Demographics
C. Politics
D. Economy
E. Neighborhoods (describe at least 7 major ones and
their security codes, then list all the others wit
htheir security codes)
F. Places Of Interest (List the Establishment
Archetype/Address/Owner, Manager, etc./Any Racial
Bias/LTG#.)
a. Hotels
b. Restaurants & Bars
c. Nightclubs
d. (A Local Attraction like the Seattle Center)
e. All Other locations (Malls,
Theaters/Playhouses, Libraries, Amusement Parks,
Sports Centers and Arenas, Places of Culture and
Science, Other Popular Local Attractions,
Universities, Landmarks, YMCA's
f. The Airport(s)
g. Government Buildings
h. Businesses
i. Medical
j. Miscellaneous (Body Shops, Nukit Burgers,
Stuffer Shacks, Weapons World, Fast Freddie's Surgery,
etc.)
VI. (District 2)
A. District 2 At A Glance
B. Geography And Demographics
C. Politics
D. Economy
E. Neighborhoods (describe at least 7 major ones and
their security codes, then list all the others wit
htheir security codes)
F. Places Of Interest (List the Establishment
Archetype/Address/Owner, Manager, etc./Any Racial
Bias/LTG#.)
a. Hotels
b. Restaurants & Bars
c. Nightclubs
d. (A Local Attraction like the Seattle Center)
e. All Other locations (Malls,
Theaters/Playhouses, Libraries, Amusement Parks,
Sports Centers and Arenas, Places of Culture and
Science, Other Popular Local Attractions,
Universities, Landmarks, YMCA's
f. The Airport(s)
g. Government Buildings
h. Businesses
i. Medical
j. Miscellaneous (Body Shops, Nukit Burgers,
Stuffer Shacks, Weapons World, Fast Freddie's Surgery,
etc.)
VII. (District 3)
A. District 2 At A Glance
B. Geography And Demographics
C. Politics
D. Economy
E. Neighborhoods (describe at least 7 major ones and
their security codes, then list all the others wit
htheir security codes)
F. Places Of Interest (List the Establishment
Archetype/Address/Owner, Manager, etc./Any Racial
Bias/LTG#.)
a. Hotels
b. Restaurants & Bars
c. Nightclubs
d. (A Local Attraction like the Seattle Center)
e. All Other locations (Malls,
Theaters/Playhouses, Libraries, Amusement Parks,
Sports Centers and Arenas, Places of Culture and
Science, Other Popular Local Attractions,
Universities, Landmarks, YMCA's
f. The Airport(s)
g. Government Buildings
h. Businesses
i. Medical
j. Miscellaneous (Body Shops, Nukit Burgers,
Stuffer Shacks, Weapons World, Fast Freddie's Surgery,
etc.)

.... (Repeat to cover all districts in the Town, City,
or Sprawl)

VII. Government
A. Political Organization
a. Major Sprawl, City, State, City-State,
Province, or Parish Officials (as of [Date])
B. Policlubs
C. Relations with (pick a controversial country)
D. Relations with (pick a controversial country)
E. Relations with Other Countries
F. United Corporation Council
G. United Corporation Council Planning Committee
VIII. Economy
A. The Big Picture
Major (Sprawl, City, State, City-State, Province, or
Parish) Corporations
IX. Crime
A. Organized Crime
a. Yakuza
b. Mafia
c. Seoulpa Rings
d. Triads
e. Vory
f. Ghost Cartels
g. Ethnic Mafia
B. Gangs
a. Go-Gangs
b. Street Gangs
c. (Sprawl, City, State, City-State, Province, or
Parish) Gangs

And throughout the first Seattle Sourcebook (and one
thing that attracted me to Shadowrun!) was the
imaginative ads for fictional companies, services,
etc. that were done up so much like ads you'd see for
real places. Also, the time/date stamps of the
shadowtext had the –Name of Post Author
(Hour:Minute:Second/Month-Date-Year) of each post.
Also, in the back there were these really well-done
color images of Seattle's Finest (Corporate Police),
Seattle's Worst (Street Gangs) twice, and Seattle's
First (Tribal Enclave). Lastly, there was a map of
Seattle on a grid and with District Boundaries,
followed by a detailed street map of each District
highlighting the different points of interst mentioned
in the book (this could be done easily now with
copying maps from Yahoo!maps or mapquest) and then
making the modifications to them. Then in the very
back there is a fold-out of the heart of Downtown
Seattle with the Renraku Arcology.

I think if you guys could put somehting like that
together on wiki, then that would be very, very cool!

And, again, people could add to the content in
whatever manner the moderators deem fit.

I think the wiki set-up the gentleman from France had
set up is a great start!! We just need a way to
convert that data into a .pdf file so people could
download it to run a game.

Ooh! Just got a new idea! Maybe, there could be a
downloadable version for GMs and another for Players!
Maybe there is a way to incorporate the controlled
access to some info into some adventure or another.
Like, if someone wanted to find out something about
Portland, Tir Tairngire, they'd have to roll a decent
Success Test in an actual Game before they got the
info. I don't know if that'd be too complicated or
not, just thought I'd toss it out there, though.

The priviledged people for posting comments would need
to be someone with a good knowledge of the game of
Shadowrun, but the priviledged people could vary
depending on the location. For example, someone living
in or having had traveled many times to Paris, France
and who knows Shadowrun could be a priviledged person
for the Paris, France Shadowrun .pdf file. They could
post concrete informaion about Paris, France to the
moderators/editors and then the moderators/editors
(the Shadowrun Developers) could apply the post to the
Paris, France Shadowrun .pdf file.

Maybe the priviledged people can post suggestions to
the moderators for actual content, and unpriviledged
people can post shadowcomments, which would post in
brackets and automatically had the:
>>>>>[]<<<<<
-Name (Hour:Minute:Second/Month-Date-Year)
Incorporated into the post.

And, as the Shadowrun universe moves forward, more
information can be posted and obsolete information
deleted, therefore, creating a fluid piece of
information that gives the Shadowrun fans what they
want and saves FanPro and WizKids tons of money they'd
otherwise spend on paper, ink, presstime, etc. Plus,
if a crucial issue was overlooked in the original
posting of the matieral, it can then be brought to the
Developers' attention and added in. And deadlines
could be met much faster! Just post it! :-) Don't have
to worry about making x-number of books. Post one, and
then let people download it. And the fact that the
moderators/editors would be the Shadowrun Developers
eliminates any questions of legality and Copyright Law
issues! :-)

I can offer these sorts of suggestions, ideas, and
input. I don't have the knowhow or equipment to set up
the programming or the web page. And I don't work for
either WizKids or FanPro. So, I'm afraid my
usefullness may be limited to offering ideas/input,
etc. and then letting the people with the knowhow and
the people in the right place run with the ideas or
not run with them.

But, I really hope this can get up and running soon!
And I hope it holds to the "Shadowrun plan" and
becomes a mainstay as far as Shadowrun is concerned! I
think it will be a great advantage for WizKids and
FanPro as far as Shadowrun goes!

-Scott



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Message no. 32
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Getting Around Portland Tir Tairngire
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:08:40 -0700 (PDT)
>I can offer these sorts of suggestions, ideas, and
input. I don't have the knowhow or equipment to set up
the programming or the web page. And I don't work for
either WizKids or FanPro. So, I'm afraid my
usefullness may be limited to offering ideas/input,
etc. and then letting the people with the knowhow and
the people in the right place run with the ideas or
not run with them.

Ooops. Forgot: I can also post some things on
different locations. This could be a lot of fun for
fans because they can use their imagination while
contributing something to the Shadowrun universe. It
will involve them more.

-Scott



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