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Message no. 1
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Getting a SIN [was Re: Credsticks]
Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:27:05 PST
>> AFAIK, it's not. But it does get make you very suspicious, and
could
>> probably cost you a night in jail for some heavy questioning. And
>> depending on how much incriminating evidence you've left at previous
>> crime scenes, you could be released.
>
>With or without a brand new SIN? Since getting a SIN isn't supposed to
be
>that "awkward", and is good in the eyes of the government, why wouldn't
>they insist that the individual be assigned a SIN?

I would say without one. Let's say Joe the PhysAd Shadowrunner is
getting picked on by Lone Star. They go through the whole "Where's
your SIN, boy?" routine comeplete with an "Honest, officer, I left in my
other pants."
LS takes Joe in and runs his prints and DNA(as a particularly evil
GM, I might keep the DNA on file<eg>). It comes back clean- nothing
left at any crime scenes. Now, what if Joe really does have a SIN?
Would officer Jones want to go through the trouble of getting him
another SIN while he could be out bashing a few more skulls? Probably
not. They'd probably toss him in the drunk tank over night just to show
him what happens when he gets caught and let him go the next morning.
Now, as you stated, there is now book that describes all this, but given
the parrallels of Rea Life(tm), I would think this is the likely course
of action.
Now, a more benevolent GM <snicker>, might have Joe come in, find
him clean- but it also comes back "No Serial Identifcation Number on
file". At which point he may be arrested and prosocuted for being
SINless, but the fine probably wouldn't be more than 50 'yen. Then, he
would have to go get a SIN.
BTW, I'm keeping Joe a PhysAd to avoid the complications of having
illegal Cyberware or Foci.
Now, if this were to happen, how does Joe prove that he's Joe? If
he doesn't have a SIN, he probably doesn't have a birth certificate
either. Does Big Brother just take his word for it that his name is
"Marty Martin"? Awful lot of trouble for one to go through, which is
why I'd probably go the previous route- maybe slapping a fine or two on
him.
Now, to bring up another point: don't forget about the Draco
Fountation's freebies that were given out? If Dunkelzahn can just hand
them out like candy, I'm sure the gubbiment can... but would they be
willing? :)

>
>
>
>
>
>James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
> "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
> ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)
>
> Mano au mano, the "Professor"
> would kick MacGyver's ass.
>


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb


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Message no. 2
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Getting a SIN [was Re: Credsticks]
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 03:02:58 GMT
On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:27:05 PST, The Vagabond wrote:

> >> AFAIK, it's not. But it does get make you very suspicious, and
> >> could probably cost you a night in jail for some heavy questioning.
> >> And depending on how much incriminating evidence you've left at
> >> previous crime scenes, you could be released.
> >
> >With or without a brand new SIN? Since getting a SIN isn't supposed to
> >be that "awkward", and is good in the eyes of the government, why
> >wouldn't they insist that the individual be assigned a SIN?
>
> I would say without one. Let's say Joe the PhysAd Shadowrunner is
> getting picked on by Lone Star. They go through the whole "Where's
> your SIN, boy?" routine comeplete with an "Honest, officer, I left in my
> other pants."

It might be possible to take a simple thumb print to see if the guy exists
in any known database right on the spot. If not, it's "down to the
precinct with you, buddy." A paranoid government might even be thinking
"spy" at this point (ohmygod! this guy doesn't appear in *any* of our
databases! :)

> LS takes Joe in and runs his prints and DNA(as a particularly evil
> GM, I might keep the DNA on file<eg>). It comes back clean- nothing
> left at any crime scenes. Now, what if Joe really does have a SIN?

But he couldn't have a SIN. Otherwise, he *would* have showed up in the
SIN database.

> Now, a more benevolent GM <snicker>, might have Joe come in, find
> him clean- but it also comes back "No Serial Identifcation Number on
> file". At which point he may be arrested and prosocuted for being
> SINless, but the fine probably wouldn't be more than 50 'yen. Then, he
> would have to go get a SIN.

This is the more likely scenario.

> Now, if this were to happen, how does Joe prove that he's Joe? If
> he doesn't have a SIN, he probably doesn't have a birth certificate
> either. Does Big Brother just take his word for it that his name is
> "Marty Martin"? Awful lot of trouble for one to go through, which is
> why I'd probably go the previous route- maybe slapping a fine or two on
> him.

Well, they'd obviously have to take his word for it, just like they do
today. They'd probably do a thorough check to make sure that the identity
that Joe was requesting did not already belong to someone else. Not to
mention that any finger-, retinal-, or DNA-prints would be undeniably his.
Most of the other information that Joe would need to supply (name, age,
address, etc.) could be checked out prior to giving him a SIN.

> Now, to bring up another point: don't forget about the Draco
> Fountation's freebies that were given out? If Dunkelzahn can just hand
> them out like candy, I'm sure the gubbiment can... but would they be
> willing? :)

I'm sure the gubbiment would love for all of its citizens to have
registered SINs so that they can keep track of them. Like someone else
pointed out, how does the gubbiment collect taxes from you if you don't
officially exist in their database? SINless individuals would be getting
many of the benefits of society for free, without paying a dime towards
their upkeep (examples include a police presence, fire departments, roads,
parks, public facilities, etc...).

Here's an interesting point: what do hospitals do in 205x when a SINless
person needs immediate medical attention? Does the hippocratic oath only
apply when caring for legal citizens?



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 3
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Getting a SIN [was Re: Credsticks]
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:56:22 PST
>> Now, a more benevolent GM <snicker>, might have Joe come in,
find
>> him clean- but it also comes back "No Serial Identifcation Number on
>> file". At which point he may be arrested and prosocuted for being
>> SINless, but the fine probably wouldn't be more than 50 'yen. Then,
he
>> would have to go get a SIN.
>
>This is the more likely scenario.

Wait... hold that thought! :)

>
>> Now, if this were to happen, how does Joe prove that he's Joe?
If
>> he doesn't have a SIN, he probably doesn't have a birth certificate
>> either. Does Big Brother just take his word for it that his name is
>> "Marty Martin"? Awful lot of trouble for one to go through, which is
>> why I'd probably go the previous route- maybe slapping a fine or two
on
>> him.
>
>Well, they'd obviously have to take his word for it, just like they do
>today. They'd probably do a thorough check to make sure that the
identity
>that Joe was requesting did not already belong to someone else. Not to
>mention that any finger-, retinal-, or DNA-prints would be undeniably
his.

Okay, so now Joe has a brand new SIN, and for the low, low price of
50 nuyen(or whatever fines the Judges throw at him).
Pretty cheap given the high cost of a fake SIN. Of course the only
drawback is that Joe has his ID permenatly attached to the SIN. Is it
worth it? Depends on what he needs a SIN for.
I'm not arguing your point, just playing Devil's Advocate. :)


>Here's an interesting point: what do hospitals do in 205x when a
SINless
>person needs immediate medical attention? Does the hippocratic oath
only
>apply when caring for legal citizens?

Probably not, otherwise, we wouldn't have Street Docs :)


-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"Fall seven times, stand up eight."
-Japanese Proverb


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Getting a SIN [was Re: Credsticks]
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:30:38 -0500
> Okay, so now Joe has a brand new SIN, and for the low, low price
> of 50 nuyen(or whatever fines the Judges throw at him).
> Pretty cheap given the high cost of a fake SIN. Of course the only
> drawback is that Joe has his ID permenatly attached to the SIN. Is it
> worth it? Depends on what he needs a SIN for.
> I'm not arguing your point, just playing Devil's Advocate. :)

Let me divide this into 3 scenarios:
1) Joe is arrested for something serious, and has no SIN. His brand
new SIN now flashes "CONVICTED FELON" when he tries to rent an
apartment or get credit or apply for a job. Obviously not a good idea.

2) Joe is arrested for misdemeanor, he has no SIN, and Joe looks like
rif-raf street scum. It is "obvious" to cops that Joe avoided a SIN
because he just wasn't important enough to get one (born and raised in
the barrens). Joe is given a new SIN (assuming his prints don't match
anything they already have on file) which starts "SIN assigned to
vagrant adult". Well, now he's legal, and could conceivably open bank
acounts, but anybody who checks his references (for an apartment or
job or credit card) is going to take one look at that line and assume that
he is a bad risk. In addition, SINs that appear out of thin air like this will
tend to get you interrogated by Credstick readers all the time. It's an
automatic "something looks fishy", and of course, the IRS is going to
make sure you start paying your taxes.

3) Joe is arrested for a misdemeanor, has no SIN, but is well dressed,
educated, or just generally doesn't look like he's spent his life in the
barrens. Something is up here, and cops wont like it. How has this
person been living their entire life with no income? At the very least the
DA could get them for tax evasion right there, but first they might as well
interrogate you to see which KIND of perp you are:
Illegal Alien
Lifelong Tax Evader
A Falsifier of Federal Records
A Foriegn Spy
A Shadowrunner
A SINless unwashed scumbag impersonating his betters (not
necessarily a crime, but worthy of a beating to make you remember
your place).

Double-Domed Mike

Further Reading

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