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Message no. 1
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:50:56 EDT
I just had an idea on how to make a ghillie suit more effective in SR.

Ok, we all can accept that they're damn near perfect on the physical plane, at
least as far as normal and likely low-light vision are concerned, but that
they leave a lot to be desired as far as astral perception goes.

What if you were to impregnate each hanging strand on the ghillie suit with a
harmless form of algae or fungus? On the astral, this would provide sort of a
cloak, as the humanoid aura would largely masked by the vegetable aura...
while it wouldn't be perfect, it would likely keep the humanoid aura from
looking like a paint splash on a hillside covered with dark vegetable auras.

This might also help a small bit with thermographic vision, as I believe the
plants would change the dispersal of the heat, possibly helping avoid a casual
scan with thermo (because your heat would disperse differently, you wouldn't
look as obviously human... at least until the ohter armies of the world caught
onto your trick).

What do you think?

Nexx
Message no. 2
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:53:21 -0400
Nexx didst sayeth:

>I just had an idea on how to make a ghillie suit more effective in SR.
>
>Ok, we all can accept that they're damn near perfect on the physical plane,
at
>least as far as normal and likely low-light vision are concerned, but that
>they leave a lot to be desired as far as astral perception goes.


*nod*

>What if you were to impregnate each hanging strand on the ghillie suit with
a
>harmless form of algae or fungus? On the astral, this would provide sort
of a
>cloak, as the humanoid aura would largely masked by the vegetable aura...
>while it wouldn't be perfect, it would likely keep the humanoid aura from
>looking like a paint splash on a hillside covered with dark vegetable
auras.


Groovy...the chia sniper...

As strange as it seems, it would work, or at least as the astral rules are
in SR2. Plus it would grant a certain degree of protection from incoming
magic, since it obscures your aura...

>This might also help a small bit with thermographic vision, as I believe
the
>plants would change the dispersal of the heat, possibly helping avoid a
casual
>scan with thermo (because your heat would disperse differently, you
wouldn't
>look as obviously human... at least until the ohter armies of the world
caught
>onto your trick).


I don't think the plants would effect the IR signature that much. That's
what the water-cooled neoprene suit underneath is for.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 18:31:19 -0400
At 05:50 PM 8/10/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I just had an idea on how to make a ghillie suit more effective in SR.
>
>Ok, we all can accept that they're damn near perfect on the physical
plane, at
>least as far as normal and likely low-light vision are concerned, but that
>they leave a lot to be desired as far as astral perception goes.

Probably their biggest weakness in the Sixth World.

>What if you were to impregnate each hanging strand on the ghillie suit with a
>harmless form of algae or fungus? On the astral, this would provide sort
of a
>cloak, as the humanoid aura would largely masked by the vegetable aura...
>while it wouldn't be perfect, it would likely keep the humanoid aura from
>looking like a paint splash on a hillside covered with dark vegetable auras.

Hmmm...possibly.

You would still be seen, but you probably wouldn't look like a human form.
A careful search by someone that knows what they are looking for could
probably still find you, but it should defeat casual searches. Which I
think is what you have in mind.

Should work. The only problem I see is keeping those algea or fungi both
alive and from growing out of control. Have to feed them just enough so
that they don't die, but not so much that they grow too rapidly and become
an impediment of any sort.

>This might also help a small bit with thermographic vision, as I believe the
>plants would change the dispersal of the heat, possibly helping avoid a
casual
>scan with thermo (because your heat would disperse differently, you wouldn't
>look as obviously human... at least until the ohter armies of the world
caught
>onto your trick).

Don't know enough about that and I'm not about to step into that whole
arena. Could possibly work though. Maybe Adam or Droopy or something with
more knowledge can give us a better idea.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 4
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 03:19:49 -0500
>
>>What if you were to impregnate each hanging strand on the ghillie suit
with a
>>harmless form of algae or fungus? On the astral, this would provide
sort
>of a
>>cloak, as the humanoid aura would largely masked by the vegetable
aura...
>>while it wouldn't be perfect, it would likely keep the humanoid aura
from
>>looking like a paint splash on a hillside covered with dark vegetable
auras.
>
>Hmmm...possibly.
>
>You would still be seen, but you probably wouldn't look like a human
form.
>A careful search by someone that knows what they are looking for could
>probably still find you, but it should defeat casual searches. Which I
>think is what you have in mind.
>
>Should work. The only problem I see is keeping those algea or fungi
both
>alive and from growing out of control. Have to feed them just enough
so
>that they don't die, but not so much that they grow too rapidly and
become
>an impediment of any sort.
>


In thinking on how to keep some sort of organic matter alive, why not
consider some sort of genetically engineered lichen or something
similar? The stuff is tough and lives under extreme conditions, with
few nutritional requirements, IIRC. Just a passing thought.

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 5
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:09:00 -0400
> >What if you were to impregnate each hanging strand on the ghillie
> suit with a
> >harmless form of algae or fungus? On the astral, this would provide
> sort
> of a
> >cloak, as the humanoid aura would largely masked by the vegetable
> aura...
> >while it wouldn't be perfect, it would likely keep the humanoid aura
> from
> >looking like a paint splash on a hillside covered with dark vegetable
> auras.
>
> Hmmm...possibly.
>
> You would still be seen, but you probably wouldn't look like a human
> form.
> A careful search by someone that knows what they are looking for could
> probably still find you, but it should defeat casual searches. Which
> I
> think is what you have in mind.
>
> Should work. The only problem I see is keeping those algea or fungi
> both
> alive and from growing out of control. Have to feed them just enough
> so
> that they don't die, but not so much that they grow too rapidly and
> become
> an impediment of any sort.
>
Actually the Chia Sniper is the best idea so far. The
hell with algae or fungi, use chia seeds (some sort of wheat I believe).
You just mount the strips of burlap (impregnated with seeds) to your
suit and hose it down. The burlap holds the moisture and the seeds
sprout. Strap it on and head out. The sprouts will break up your outline
even more, you will look JUST like a mound of plants, and the seeds will
also absorb and disperse your thermal image.

You might be overlooked with thermo as being a pile of
rotting leaves which BTW give off a surprising amount of heat.
Message no. 6
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:25:08 -0700
> Actually the Chia Sniper is the best idea so far. The
>hell with algae or fungi, use chia seeds (some sort of wheat I believe).
>You just mount the strips of burlap (impregnated with seeds) to your
>suit and hose it down. The burlap holds the moisture and the seeds
>sprout. Strap it on and head out. The sprouts will break up your outline
>even more, you will look JUST like a mound of plants, and the seeds will
>also absorb and disperse your thermal image.

Probably not. Normal clumps of vegetation don't have a heat source of 310 K
within them. Unless the environment is exactly that temperature, there is
going to be a noticeable gradient. Heat emissions are still an issue.

However, it may confuse the issue with regards to animals, if there are any
of significant size around. I still think a chemical chill can system
coupled with this would be best. You would generate the characteristic
chlorophyll curve if illuminated with active IR.

> You might be overlooked with thermo as being a pile of
>rotting leaves which BTW give off a surprising amount of heat.

Not surprising, there is a chemical reaction occurring after all.
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 7
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:36:39 -0400
> > Actually the Chia Sniper is the best idea so far. The
> >hell with algae or fungi, use chia seeds (some sort of wheat I
> believe).
> >You just mount the strips of burlap (impregnated with seeds) to your
> >suit and hose it down. The burlap holds the moisture and the seeds
> >sprout. Strap it on and head out. The sprouts will break up your
> outline
> >even more, you will look JUST like a mound of plants, and the seeds
> will
> >also absorb and disperse your thermal image.
>
> Probably not. Normal clumps of vegetation don't have a heat source of
> 310 K
> within them. Unless the environment is exactly that temperature, there
> is
> going to be a noticeable gradient. Heat emissions are still an issue.
>
> However, it may confuse the issue with regards to animals, if there
> are any
> of significant size around. I still think a chemical chill can system
> coupled with this would be best. You would generate the characteristic
> chlorophyll curve if illuminated with active IR.
>
What is room temp? 290K? I'm not saying the plants are
going to cool you off any. I'm saying that they will dissipate and
absorb some of the heat from your body thus disrupting your outline and
making you somewhat harder to spot.
Message no. 8
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:53:07 -0700
> What is room temp? 290K? I'm not saying the plants are
>going to cool you off any. I'm saying that they will dissipate and
>absorb some of the heat from your body thus disrupting your outline and
>making you somewhat harder to spot.

Emissivity is the problem. Where do you think that heat that is being
dissipated is going? Into the environment, and into the plant. Heating of
the plants (like thermographic bleed through of walls, discussed in an
earlier article) causes the plant to be of higher temperature than
surrounding vegetation. That's an anomaly. Heating of the environment
causes the area around the ghillie suit to be of higher temperature than
the background. That's another anomaly.

There is a heat source (the sniper) and various ways to dissipate it:
radiation, conduction, convection. Unless there is a heat sink (chemical
chill can, etc) this excess energy will always provide a contrast with the
environment, which does not have (globally) a source. A reasonably good
sensor can detect a difference of 0.1 degrees.

Make sense?

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 9
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:03:52 -0400
> > What is room temp? 290K? I'm not saying the plants
> are
> >going to cool you off any. I'm saying that they will dissipate and
> >absorb some of the heat from your body thus disrupting your outline
> and
> >making you somewhat harder to spot.
>
> Emissivity is the problem. Where do you think that heat that is being
> dissipated is going? Into the environment, and into the plant. Heating
> of
> the plants (like thermographic bleed through of walls, discussed in an
> earlier article) causes the plant to be of higher temperature than
> surrounding vegetation. That's an anomaly. Heating of the environment
> causes the area around the ghillie suit to be of higher temperature
> than
> the background. That's another anomaly.
>
> There is a heat source (the sniper) and various ways to dissipate it:
> radiation, conduction, convection. Unless there is a heat sink
> (chemical
> chill can, etc) this excess energy will always provide a contrast with
> the
> environment, which does not have (globally) a source. A reasonably
> good
> sensor can detect a difference of 0.1 degrees.
>
I am not saying you will STOP the heat just disperse it
to the point where it could be overlooked as rotting leaves, a sunny
patch of old asphalt, a sleeping wildebeest, whatever. We need it to
look like anything BUT a guy with a rifle aimed at your dictator.

I see what you are saying with the cooling system but
the fundamental flaw I am seeing (maybe I'm missing something) is that
using your own arguments the only way for a chill system to work is to
reduce the sniper's body temp to room temp. This seems unhealthy.
Even if that isn't the case aren't we going to see every
hose that is cooling things? 0.1 deg is pretty tight tolerance.
Message no. 10
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:21:03 -0700
> I see what you are saying with the cooling system but
>the fundamental flaw I am seeing (maybe I'm missing something) is that
>using your own arguments the only way for a chill system to work is to
>reduce the sniper's body temp to room temp. This seems unhealthy.

The suit would have an insulating outer layer and a conductive inner layer.
The conductive inner layer (say, aluminum) would direct the emitted heat to
the chemical chill can rather efficiently. No hoses required, just
thermodynamics. The outer insulating layer would reduce heat bleed-through
to a timescale of hours, by which time the heat will be preferentially
conducted (to the chill can) rather than convected (to the outer suit layer
hence heating the air). Add an air gap between the inner layer so the
sniper loses heat via convection and gets to keep his normal surface body
temperature.

> Even if that isn't the case aren't we going to see every
>hose that is cooling things? 0.1 deg is pretty tight tolerance.

Overlay surface sensors (much cheaper than thermographics) on the outer
layer to monitor things. Adding computer controlled positive feedback might
require miniture electric fans and/or a sandwiched aluminum layer to allow
nitrogen flow, but that would be for the fancier models.

It's time to update the Stealth Suit again.



--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 11
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:19:04 -0400
At 09:53 AM 8/11/98 -0700, you wrote:

>There is a heat source (the sniper) and various ways to dissipate it:
>radiation, conduction, convection. Unless there is a heat sink (chemical
>chill can, etc) this excess energy will always provide a contrast with the
>environment, which does not have (globally) a source. A reasonably good
>sensor can detect a difference of 0.1 degrees.

Adam, I'm not positive you're catching the point. It isn't to make the
sniper invisible to thermographics, it's to make him look like something
*other* than a sniper. Heat radiation is fine, as long as it doesn't look
like a human.

If, in any way, it is possible to make the sniper look like rotting leaves,
like another animal, like almost anything else, the suit has performed it's
purpose, which is to camouflage the sniper. Camo doesn't ever actually
make anyone invisible, it tricks the human eye into thinking what it is
seeing isn't a human shape, that it is just part of the background.

I don't know how exactly this can be achieved with thermo, but that's the
goal, not invisibility.

Erik the Impatient


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 12
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:59:17 -0700
>Adam, I'm not positive you're catching the point. It isn't to make the
>sniper invisible to thermographics, it's to make him look like something
>*other* than a sniper. Heat radiation is fine, as long as it doesn't look

That is my point. Heat radiation that stands out from the background is
not-fine. Heat radiation in a spatial volume and of the proper scale to be
consistent with a humanoid object is also not-fine. Whether you hide it
with plants (cause radiation/absorbsion/conduction/convection/re-radiation)
there is still a heat source that can be picked out separately from the
background. Looking at the sensitivity of the instruments, you can see that
the source would be significant.

Heat flux is the point. It's sort of like cleaning your room. You can
rearrage the piles of garbage, but to do any good you actually have to
throw some away. Or smear the garbage around a larger volume in a thin
film. ;-)

You must reduce heat flux. One way would be to somehow take all the heat
and distribute it over a wide area of the background. Wider, one would
hope, than the blast radius of an area effect munition. Certainly much
wider than the extra enclosed volume of a ghillie suit.

Another way would be to provide a heat sink.

Do you catch the point?

>Erik the Impatient

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 13
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:13:57 -0400
At 11:59 AM 8/11/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Heat flux is the point. It's sort of like cleaning your room. You can
>rearrage the piles of garbage, but to do any good you actually have to
>throw some away. Or smear the garbage around a larger volume in a thin
>film. ;-)
>
>Do you catch the point?

Okay. I get it. Even if the plant matter caused a different heat
signature to be put out, it would still be a rather "bright light" as it
were, regardless of it's shape. And while it may not read as a human form,
it would still likely be bright enough to stand out from the background.

Okay.

So what are the options then? Try to absorb some of that heat, like a heat
sink? Attempt to disperse the heat in different patterns (like you room
cleaning example)? Dunno.

Erik the Impatient


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 14
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ghillie Suit idea
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:23:00 -0700
>So what are the options then? Try to absorb some of that heat, like a heat
>sink? Attempt to disperse the heat in different patterns (like you room
>cleaning example)? Dunno.

Right. A chemical chill can would be nice. If you had a lot of space
thermal baffles (which increase the amount of time it takes for heat to
conduct through the material) would also be nice. It doesn't seem to be too
great for a ghillie suit unless it were really large, but it would help.

Pattern mask changing, just like visual camouflage. Again, this is dealing
with the heat already there ... it should be tuned way down through other
countermeasures first.

The camouflage I worked on was dealing with active sensors only, hence the
design towards matching the chlorophyll reflectance curve. For passive
sensors, the only choice is to cut down on emitted signal.

Just like submarine warfare. You can put an anechoic coating to mask your
return from active sonar. But you make the sailors wear slippers, rubber
coat metal tools, and do everything possible to reduce your overall noise
signature. At the same time, you take measures to reduce your "transient"
signature (in this case, transient is parlance for a noise occurring only
from artificial means) and blend in with the background. Court martial the
sailor that drops a wrench in engineering spaces, and make sure the darn
thing is rubber coated.

>Erik the Impatient

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

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