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Message no. 1
From: Razors Edge. razrzedge@*****.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:24:05 -0700 (PDT)
How complete are the transformations that a ghoul or
vamp goes through? It's retrovirus, right? So the DNA
changes? Do fingerprints? Retinal patterns, don't
ghouls eyes substantially differ from their
pre-infection status?

I am asking because of an adventure I am running. My
pc's have to find a ghoul who has gone completly
feral. No personality left and no obvious identifing
features. (missing eye, scars, bizzare cyber mods)
Also they have no direct magical link. (The shaman
isn't good enough at ritual magic to succeed without a
strong connection.) They asked the Johnson how they
were supposed to ID the subject. I had him say, "Thats
the your concern, and the reason your getting paid." I
don't want to make it too easy, but have I hamstrung
them?

Thanks
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Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:42:47 +1000
Razor's Edge writes:
> I am asking because of an adventure I am running. My
> pc's have to find a ghoul who has gone completly
> feral. No personality left and no obvious identifing
> features. (missing eye, scars, bizzare cyber mods)
> Also they have no direct magical link. (The shaman
> isn't good enough at ritual magic to succeed without a
> strong connection.) They asked the Johnson how they
> were supposed to ID the subject. I had him say, "Thats
> the your concern, and the reason your getting paid." I
> don't want to make it too easy, but have I hamstrung
> them?

Backed yourself in a corner, more like it... If I was in that group, I would
be extremely tempted to deliver just any old feral ghoul. After all, if the
Johnson can't ID it, he wouldn't know the difference, and if he can, then he
should have told you how, so you know you have the right goods.

To answer your question... Fingerprints would be distorted, at least, if not
totally changed. This is due to the new shape of the fingers. Retinal
patterns are definitely out: the eye structure has changed. DNA _might_ be
recognisable, as long as you took the effects of the retrovirus into
account, but you'd probably be allowing a lot of false positives.

The aura is still recognisable, however, although it is changed. That's
probably the best place to start. However, without a link, you're not going
to be able to use that to track him down.

If the Johnson really wants this ghoul picked up, it'll have to provide a
bit more info, I think. A description, at least, and somewhere to start
looking.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 3
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:44:12 -0500
Your mileage may vary.

> How complete are the transformations that a ghoul or
> vamp goes through? It's retrovirus, right? So the DNA
> changes?

To a degree, yes, I think so.

> Do fingerprints?

Not in my campaign.

> Retinal patterns, don't ghouls eyes substantially differ from their
> pre-infection status?

Ghouls are blind; most have *severe* cataracts, thus basically having white
eyes all around.

> They asked the Johnson how they
> were supposed to ID the subject. I had him say, "Thats
> the your concern, and the reason your getting paid." I
> don't want to make it too easy, but have I hamstrung them?

Maybe a little; I don't think the prints would change, and it's likely that
the DNA would be identifiable.
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:56:48 EDT
In a message dated 6/14/1999 10:24:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
razrzedge@*****.com writes:

>
> How complete are the transformations that a ghoul or
> vamp goes through? It's retrovirus, right? So the DNA
> changes? Do fingerprints? Retinal patterns, don't
> ghouls eyes substantially differ from their
> pre-infection status?
>
> I am asking because of an adventure I am running. My
> pc's have to find a ghoul who has gone completly
> feral. No personality left and no obvious identifing
> features. (missing eye, scars, bizzare cyber mods)
> Also they have no direct magical link. (The shaman
> isn't good enough at ritual magic to succeed without a
> strong connection.) They asked the Johnson how they
> were supposed to ID the subject. I had him say, "Thats
> the your concern, and the reason your getting paid." I
> don't want to make it too easy, but have I hamstrung
> them?

IMO, the changes are dramatic. Physical things would be different yes.
Maternal/Paternal blood links would probably still work, but perhaps at an
additional +2 for each if using Ritual Magic. Also, please remember,
Background Count (friendly) can beneficially help your shaman out with some
of the target numbers.

Additionally, the blood tests listed in the book would probably turn up a
percentage chance that a given blood type would match it's original. For
instance, the pre-ghoul sample would be perhaps 75% matching to the
post-ghoul sample possibilities.

Additionally, believe it or not, the ghoul has the possibility of a third,
yes THIRD, parent. The ghoul that created him/her (it?) is one as well. If
a blood sample from an original parent and the virally infective ghoul were
both used simultaneously, the likelihood of a "Good Link" might well exist as
well.

In other words...you haven't hamstrung them, but damn was that a low shot...

-K
Message no. 5
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 01:06:24 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Razors Edge.."
] How complete are the transformations that a ghoul or
] vamp goes through? It's retrovirus, right? So the DNA
] changes? Do fingerprints? Retinal patterns, don't
] ghouls eyes substantially differ from their
] pre-infection status?
]
] I am asking because of an adventure I am running. My
] pc's have to find a ghoul who has gone completly
] feral. No personality left and no obvious identifing
] features. (missing eye, scars, bizzare cyber mods)
] Also they have no direct magical link. (The shaman
] isn't good enough at ritual magic to succeed without a
] strong connection.) They asked the Johnson how they
] were supposed to ID the subject. I had him say, "Thats
] the your concern, and the reason your getting paid." I
] don't want to make it too easy, but have I hamstrung
] them?

Well, remember that an animal has habits and memories. Could be that
this ghoul still hangs around his/her home turf, or remembers family
members (read: isn't as likely to kill and eat them). These are tools
the players can still use, even if you rule that physical
identification is impossible.
Alternatively, the ghoul could have her/his Pocket Secretary still on
their person, which details the progression of the illness nicely, in
suitably tortured prose. But then, this isn't a 1st Ed. adventure, so
that might not work ;)

-Murder of One
Message no. 6
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 01:43:47 -0500
:Your mileage may vary.

Ditto

:
:> How complete are the transformations that a ghoul or
:> vamp goes through? It's retrovirus, right? So the DNA
:> changes?
:
:To a degree, yes, I think so.

Mitocondrial DNA would not change form any normal virus. Its not sufficient
to distiguish members of a family, but how many ghouls are there?

:
:> Do fingerprints?
:
:Not in my campaign.


I'd agree; not so much that they could not be matched, at least. Heck,
Moulder did it, right? :)


:
:> Retinal patterns, don't ghouls eyes substantially differ from their
:> pre-infection status?
:
:Ghouls are blind; most have *severe* cataracts, thus basically having white
:eyes all around.


Meaning thier retinal patterns could still be read, since that uses
infra-red anyhow.


:> They asked the Johnson how they
:> were supposed to ID the subject. I had him say, "Thats
:> the your concern, and the reason your getting paid." I
:> don't want to make it too easy, but have I hamstrung them?
:
:Maybe a little; I don't think the prints would change, and it's likely that
:the DNA would be identifiable.


Good old fashioned detective work could still work, also. There's fewer
feral ghouls than stray dogs, and most urban folks notice when a new stray
dog shows up in their neighborhood.

Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:29:30 EDT
"Razors Edge." <razrzedge@*****.com> wrote:
>How complete are the transformations that a ghoul or
>vamp goes through? It's retrovirus, right? So the DNA
>changes? Do fingerprints? Retinal patterns, don't
>ghouls eyes substantially differ from their
>pre-infection status?

IMHO, while the physical transformation caused by the various strains of
HMHVV are fairly extensive, some physical traits remain largely unaltered.
Fingerprints are on example, retinal prints another. Ghouls do suffer damage
to their eyes that renders them virtually blind, but the pattern of veins
making up a retinal print probably do not substantially alter. Even their DNA
would remain identifiable based on a pre-infection sample. A retrovirus
"attaches" itself to existing DNA, so the original genes can still be
identified (and used as a ritual link, IMHO).

With some computer modeling, 21st century graphics software, and a decent
database on the effects of HMHVV, you could probably even input a subject's
original morphology (from a hologram or even a good photo) and do a "morph"
to find out what they'd look like as a ghoul (now THERE'S a little party game
for ya!). It wouldn't account for the other injuries but, hey, you don't want
to make it TOO easy on the 'runners, do you?

Steve

Kenson's Cranial Collection
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 8
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:41:40 PDT
>From: "Razors Edge." <razrzedge@*****.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.org
>To: SRN group <shadowrn@*********.org>
>Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:24:05 -0700 (PDT)
>
>How complete are the transformations that a ghoul or
>vamp goes through? It's retrovirus, right? So the DNA
>changes? Do fingerprints? Retinal patterns, don't
>ghouls eyes substantially differ from their
>pre-infection status?
>
The problem whith the aura recognition is that if your shaman has never seen
the ghoul in astral perception, how can he even know that he´s watching at
the right ghoul when he spots one. The aura of every ghoul is diferent so he
should at least have seen the persons aura once.

Now fiscally he looks like he did inb his human form but details have
changed, so you cant track him down using any personal features like finger
prints and retinal scan, as for cyberware, as far as i knew an undead
character can not have any, or at least not normal ones, cyberware responds
to biological impulses as are brain signals, and undeads have diferent
impulses than the living or they havent got any impulses at all.

ATTE el MORRIS



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Message no. 9
From: Drew Curtis dcurtis@***.net
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:49:40 -0400 (EDT)
I'm curious: how exactly would you expect a team to identify the guy? I'm
interested in stealing this idea for my own campaign if the creator
doesn't mind too much.

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 10
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:55:39 PDT
>
>Mitocondrial DNA would not change form any normal virus. Its not
>sufficient
>to distiguish members of a family, but how many ghouls are there?

Yes but i dont think that runners are going to have time to do a
mitocondrial DNA test, besdies it is a very dificult procedure, unless in
2060, ther is a device that semplifies every step, im studiing Farmaceutic
Chermestry and Biology and belive me when i say you cant separate DNA with
out smashing a part of the creatures organ, not likely in a Ghoul.
ATTE el MORRIS


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Message no. 11
From: Razors Edge. razrzedge@*****.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:37:23 -0700 (PDT)
Thanks for all the great ideas people.

--- Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.net> wrote:
> I'm curious: how exactly would you expect a team to
> identify the guy? I'm
> interested in stealing this idea for my own campaign
> if the creator
> doesn't mind too much.
>

Feel free. I really didn't plan it out. It was an off
the cuff idea. My decker player pointed out some of
the questions and I felt that sinking feeling. I had
some ideas on what to do, but the List gives me the
opportunity to pick dozens of brains instead of just
mine. I thought i would have the ghoul show up on a
snoop special about infected rights (allowing the
wolves into the hen-house) Then they would track down
the snoop who broke the story and try to locate the
ghoul from there. But i realized it would be giving
the solution away, instead of letting them earn it
with their characters skills. I know I like it when I
acomplish a hard task without fate (aka the GM) doing
it for me.

Also my players go a little kill crazy. I want to put
the fear of killing there target into them. So when
they get surrounded by 20 feral ghouls, they can't
just mow them down indesciminatly. Plus it will give
the Investigator PC a chance to stand out. He is a
contact and stealth dude.

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Message no. 12
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:48:39 -0500
<Snip>
>... as for cyberware, as far as i knew an undead
>character can not have any, or at least not normal ones, cyberware
responds
>to biological impulses as are brain signals, and undeads have diferent
>impulses than the living or they havent got any impulses at all.

Actually they can, but they have to have it before they are transformed.
There are interesting things that happen with that too!
Message no. 13
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:16:45 -0500
On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:48:39 -0500 cmpetro@*********.com writes:
<Snip>
>>... as for cyberware, as far as i knew an undead
>>character can not have any, or at least not normal ones, cyberware
responds
>>to biological impulses as are brain signals, and undeads have diferent
>>impulses than the living or they havent got any impulses at all.

>Actually they can, but they have to have it before they are transformed.
>There are interesting things that happen with that too!

Incorrect. Ghouls can have cyberware beforehand and it MIGHT come though
the transformation okay (bioware is another matter.). They can have
cyber (and, I THINK bio as well) installed with problem after the
transformation. All others, sorry. They regenerate and that (according
to FASA) means no cyber or bio.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

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Message no. 14
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:56 -0500
> ...as for cyberware, as far as i knew an undead character can not
> have any, or at least not normal ones, cyberware responds to biological
> impulses as are brain signals, and undeads have diferent impulses than
> the living or they havent got any impulses at all.

Except that ghouls aren't undead in Shadowrun. (Of course, neither are
vampires, but they regenerate, whereas ghouls don't...just ask me how I
know.) Ghouls can have cyber, though it costs them double the Essence it
would cost a normal character, and ghouls don't have as much Essence to
spare (ghoul PCs have a starting Essence of 5).

Vampires and shapers, on the other hand, regenerate and therefore cannot
have cyber implanted in their bodies.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 15
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:58 -0500
> >... as for cyberware, as far as i knew an undead character can not
> > have any....
>
> Actually they can, but they have to have it before they are transformed.
> There are interesting things that happen with that too!

Actually, ghouls *can* get it implanted after their transformation. It
costs them more than it costs other characters, but they can get it. And
mine really needs to get some kind of reaction enhancement really damn soon,
before I get pasted but good....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 16
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:55:36 PDT
>From: cmpetro@*********.com
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.org
>To: shadowrn@*********.org
>Subject: Re: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
>Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:48:39 -0500
>
>
>
>
><Snip>
> >... as for cyberware, as far as i knew an undead
> >character can not have any, or at least not normal ones, cyberware
>responds
> >to biological impulses as are brain signals, and undeads have diferent
> >impulses than the living or they havent got any impulses at all.
>
>Actually they can, but they have to have it before they are transformed.
>There are interesting things that happen with that too!

Thanks for the correction, im only a PC and I´ve never fought with an undead
wearing cyberware and as far as me and my characters knew that kind of thing
is quite powerful and rare. As a mater of fact one if my actual runs is
about that, me and my party but specialy me are tracking out a series of
"clues" if thas what you want to call it that have taken us to find tha ARES
megacorp is experimenting out whith dead people and bringing them back to
life and then instaling the cyberware, wierd isnt it, we are currently in
Aztlan waiting for "El día de Muertos" (The day of the dead). I must say
its
quite cool.
But as i told before, that is some top secret frag. And i never heard of any
regular created undead wearing cyberware, so then again thanks a lot.

By the way sorry if my english has flaws but im not a native speaker.

ATTE el MORRIS


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Message no. 17
From: Aaron Binns sparrow@***.net.au
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:05:46 +1000
> ><Snip>
> > >... as for cyberware, as far as i knew an undead
> > >character can not have any, or at least not normal ones, cyberware
> >responds
> > >to biological impulses as are brain signals, and undeads have diferent
> > >impulses than the living or they havent got any impulses at all.
> >
> >Actually they can, but they have to have it before they are transformed.
> >There are interesting things that happen with that too!
>
> Thanks for the correction, im only a PC and I´ve never fought with an undead
> wearing cyberware and as far as me and my characters knew that kind of thing
> is quite powerful and rare. As a mater of fact one if my actual runs is
> about that, me and my party but specialy me are tracking out a series of
> "clues" if thas what you want to call it that have taken us to find tha
ARES
> megacorp is experimenting out whith dead people and bringing them back to
> life and then instaling the cyberware, wierd isnt it, we are currently in
> Aztlan waiting for "El día de Muertos" (The day of the dead). I must
say its
> quite cool.
> But as i told before, that is some top secret frag. And i never heard of any
> regular created undead wearing cyberware, so then again thanks a lot.
>
> By the way sorry if my english has flaws but im not a native speaker.
>
> ATTE el MORRIS

Your english is just fine there. :)

does Muerto mean dead? wat language is that? What culture has the day of the
dead? I thought it was spanish?

GreyWolf
Message no. 18
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:00:08 EDT
IIRC, zombies (accepting them as generic undead for purposes of discussion)
in MitS only get cyberware benefits to attributes, not any of bonuses like
cyberweapons or cranial cyberdecks or such. One would have to wonder if
Reaction would qualify as an applicable attribute here, and whether something
like move-by-wire or plain vanilla wires would work.











-Twist
Message no. 19
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:08:24 PDT
>From: Aaron Binns <sparrow@***.net.au>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.org
>
>Your english is just fine there. :)
>
>does Muerto mean dead? wat language is that? What culture has the day of
>the
>dead? I thought it was spanish?
>
>GreyWolf

Im a proud Aztlaner, or Mexican as you wish to call me. By the way the Day
of the Dead is one of the most important tradiotional days in our culture.
Yes my friend In México we celebrate death, if you ever come to México in
Nov 1st go to a cementery and you wont belive your eyes.

So my run has to do with cyberzombies.

ATTE el Morris


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Message no. 20
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:02:54 EDT
In a message dated 6/16/1999 4:09:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
morrisjila@*******.com writes:

>
> Im a proud Aztlaner, or Mexican as you wish to call me. By the way the
Day
> of the Dead is one of the most important tradiotional days in our culture.
> Yes my friend In México we celebrate death, if you ever come to México
in
> Nov 1st go to a cementery and you wont belive your eyes.
>
> So my run has to do with cyberzombies.
>
> ATTE el Morris

THAT is exactly the information *I* personally have been looking for. Could
you give a summary of what the celebration is, as well as some of the ways it
is currently celebrated? I personally would find it useful in giving me some
ideas how "Aztlan" would have carried over the Holiday into it's
"Awakened"
alternative.

-K
Message no. 21
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:15:10 GMT
>From: Ereskanti@***.com
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.org
>To: shadowrn@*********.org
>Subject: Re: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
>Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:02:54 EDT

>THAT is exactly the information *I* personally have been looking for.
>Could
>you give a summary of what the celebration is, as well as some of the ways
>it
>is currently celebrated? I personally would find it useful in giving me
>some
>ideas how "Aztlan" would have carried over the Holiday into it's
"Awakened"
>alternatie

of course I can give you info, but its quite complex if you do not
undrestand Mexican Culture. OK here it goes:

First of all you must understand that Mexicans a.k.a. Aztlaners in 2060 are
people who worship death, we do not only worship it but we celebrate it,
which means that we do not fear it. We also belibe strongly in the after
life, there is this place were all dead people go the moment they depart
fronm the world of the living. Also you must know that this custom was not
brought by the spansih, we had it already. The only thing tha hapened when
they came was that it had to be adapted to Christianity, which means all the
simbols used in the altars have to do in some way whith Catholic ones.

Ok now with that background let me explain you whow the DAY OF THE DEAD
works, first it is belived that on that day all of our deer ones who are not
with us anymore come back on this date (NOVEMBER 1st) of the year to be with
us and spend a day shearing what they used to like in their living days. For
example people take food to the cementerys, the particular food the person
liked in his life, they also take "Zempasúchitl" flower (Im not shure its

writen that way)which simbolizes death acording to prehispanic cultures. It
is also known as the flower of the dead. So whith this two main elements
ading small shugar skulls, "Papel Picado" (Cuted up paper: its a kind of
paper of diferent colors that has been cuted whith diferent forms and
figures, ill try to send you a picture so you understand what im talking
about) PAN DE MUERTOS (Bread of the Dead) and pictures of the person. With
all of this the whole family goes into the graveyard and place an altar
where the persons body lies. acomodating all of the things mentioned above
and they spend all the day with him who is suposed to absorb the essense of
what you brought him, then all the family share the food with their dead and
eat it, yes they eat it inside the graveyard, next to the tomb of their
beloved one.

Then late at night, there is like this big party, in the graveyard with
music and dancing, of course its tipical music, dont imagine disco type
thing, and people disguise in dead customes, or traditional clothings. Have
you seen the movie Asassins, whith Silveser Stalone and Banderas, ok whatch
the scene in the grave yard and it is quite close to what we do as a mater
of fact its almost the same. Now you must understand this only hapens in
small towns and in the lower class in the city, the uper classes have a
diferent veiw of the celebration, yes we do make altars but in schools and
those kind of places but we do not go to the cementery or that sort of
stuff.

OK thats what the day of the dead is today now what hapens in the awakening,
first of all all the Christian symbols disapear, and now spirits DO come to
see ther loved ones. More info will be posted when we finish the Neo
Anarchists Gide to Aztlan because i can not determine what has hapened whith
the rite itself and what religious implications does it have.

ATTE el MORRIS


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Message no. 22
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Ghouls and HMHVV Changes
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 16:06:47 -0500
On Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:15:10 GMT Ignacio De Lucas
<morrisjila@*******.com> writes:
<SNIP Day of the Dead>

Hmmm ... sounds like spontaneous appearances of Ancestor spirits if the
proper symbolic objects are used. This is one of those things best
handled with GM Discretion.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Your Johnson is a one-eyed Snake Shaman"

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Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Ghouls and HMHVV Changes, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!