Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:36:15 -0700
(I started off with the intention of writing a short note, but somehow I
ended up with a short essay. Enjoy :)

Re: How to GM Munchkins

I just recalled the #1 method for dealing with munchkins. Don't play
their game. Play your game and strive to entertain the players.

I've had two experiences with munchkins.

The first one went like this: I let him make the character he wanted
and, suprise, it unblanced the game. My response was to play his
escallation game, creating powerful NPCs. The other players
responded by creating munchkinous characters. The campaign went down
the toilet. Several of the "good" players complained and blamed the
munchkin's character. I talked to the munchkin and talked him into
making a new character. He made a new character that took advantage
of another loophole and unbalanced the game again. The campaign
crashed and burned.

What did I learn from this? That it was the munchkin's fault and the
rule system's fault. Or so I thought.

I started another campaign with another game. This time around
whenever the munchkin tried to do his thing I would react by
callously swatting his character down. Again, it was his fault,
right? And the other players backed me up so I knew I was doing the
right thing. We eventually drove the munchkin and his wife (a good
friend) out of our gaming group.

Several years went by and I thought about those experiences a lot. I
felt guilty as hell and couldn't figure out why.

Along came munchkin #2. This guy wasn't devious so it took awhile to
figure out he was a munchkin. He wasn't a power-mongering munchkin,
but he had to have everything his way. When the group made a mistake
and got caught in a cross fire the munchkin's PC's limo was totaled.
I didn't have to do a thing. The munchkin sat and pouted silently
for about 15 minutes before he got up and left and was never heard
from again.

This time I didn't feel guilty. It took me a while, but I understood
why. Munchkin #2 had left of his own free will. I'd run the game I
wanted to run, I hadn't changed for him, and he'd made the decision
to leave. With munchkin #1 I had played his game and instead of
taking a stand I had reacted imaturely and worked with the other
players to drive him away.

That's when I figured out the defining characteristics of munchkins.
They are selfish with a capital S.

Now, everyone is selfish to some extent. But munchkins *always* put
their needs before the needs of others. If their needs aren't being
met, its someone else's fault. Munchkin #2 blamed me for the
destruction of his PC's limo.

So, how should you react to munchkins? It's a combination of things
really. First, you have to be aware that they exist and be able to
identify them. With my first run-in I didn't know what the hell was
going on. Now that I've experienced them I know what they look
like. Experience is still the greates teacher. And, after reading
those hopefully the uninitiated will have a head start.

Don't give in to their selfish needs. When you start catering to the
munchkin you stop providing for the other players and your game can
get really screwed up. No matter how much he wines and begs, run the
game that you want to run (be careful here though, if you're ego is
getting in the way you can confuse you're own munchkinous needs with
a player's).

Don't get into an arms race. If he has a +5 Dragon Slaying Vorpal
Sword, don't give a +10 Paladin Slaying Vorpal Sword to your NPC.
Because either the Munchkin's PC will win and get that +10 sword, or
you'll win and He'll get to make a bigger, better character. If
you've accidently given such a toy to a Munchkin, take it away from
him. And make it a plot device so you can entertain the other
characters and give the munchkin a chance to learn how to roleplay.

Make your own decisions and let the munchkin make his. Only in the
worst cases when the player himself is being abusive should you have
to ask him to leave. 9 times out of 10 if you run your game the
munchkin will leave on his own. Every now and then he'll reform and
you'll end up with a great player.

And finally, run your game the way you want and make it your goal to
provide entertainment for your players.

Okay, that should do it, for now ;)

-David

ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:26:44 +0000
*snip story of munchkin PC's and how it was reacted to*
> Okay, that should do it, for now ;)
>
> -David
>
> ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division

PERMISSION TO SPEAK, SIR! YES SIR!

Um.. where were I? Oh yes. Munchkins.

I have run into .. hm.. one which was, and as far as I know is,
totally incorrigible, and almost a running joke in our group. He
cheats at *everything* he can cheat at to gain any advantage. In
Daggerfall, guess who found out how to cast superpowerful spells for
free? Can sit days in front of a CRPG to get that maxed out starting
char? And so on. He's also a friend, a good one at that. Well, he is
everything that has been said about munchkins, too.

When he was on a short vacation from the army he wanted to join our
gaming group. Well, he made a character, I said 'Nope', he made
another, I said, 'No', he made a third which was ok and I said
'Great!' (Mostly because I knew he wouldn't be around for more than
a week or so.).. We played for a few weeks, and it went fairly ok.
Not perfect, but ok. He left for the army again (He's currently in
Thailand running a bar, of all things) and I guess when he's finally
back he'd want to continue. I'm curious how it will work out, but
still worried.


In the regular gaming group there's no 'munchkins'. But there is a
player who consistently creates very potent characters. They are not
extremely so, but generally has a slight edge in combat compared to
the other characters. The other players aren't really that happy
about it, as we've tried to run a fairly low-key campaign for the
last year or two. So when the rest of the team had mostly pistols
(and one sawed off defiance, IIRC) he wanted to start with max
modified Ares Alpha's, Spas combat shotgun etc. After a discussion
(which got fairly heated, IIRC) he tuned it down, and things went
very well from then on. His character ended up with more depth than
most of the others.

In other words, my experience is that you must have a clear idea of
what kind of campaign you want to run. Then make sure your players
agree and understand. And then say 'no' if it is required. The bit
about everyone agreeing what kind of campaign you should play, is
fairly important. If the campaign is geared more towards cyberpunk,
then the 'dark avenger' kind of character is fairly out of place,
while it is well suited for an epic campaign. This also reflects on
the general power level in the campaign, which should, even must, be
agreed upon. What you also should be very careful about *not* doing
is to call for moderation among the players, and then throw
everything, including the kitchen sink, at them. If they moderate, so
do you.
--
Fade

"Do you wish to dance with Lucretia, Mr. President?"
Message no. 3
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:59:20 -0800
At 1:26 AM +0000 2/24/98, Fade wrote:
>*snip story of munchkin PC's and how it was reacted to*
>> Okay, that should do it, for now ;)
>>
>> -David
>>
>> ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
>
>PERMISSION TO SPEAK, SIR! YES SIR!
>
>Um.. where were I? Oh yes. Munchkins.
>

IMHO one of the most effective tools for dealing with Munchkins is a large
axe. Aside from that I find that the players themselves are an excellent
deterrent to potentially Muchkinous behavior. I find that in the groups I
play in, the players tend to set the tone and style of the game.

As a GM, I tend to let them control the behavior of others. In our SR game
most of the players spend extra cash at the start to be well connected, and
a few choice words can leave a troublesome character high and dry. I try
not to let it turn into a PC vs PC situation, but I tend to rely upon my
players to keep idiots under control.

'Course my favorite short-lived Munchkin story is from a Call of Cthulhu
game. We had a guy who insisted on playing an ex-military commando type
with mil-spec weapons and super combat skills. The GM finally gave in, just
to get the game going, and the player proceeded to bore all the other
players with detailed descriptions of every weapon his character carried.

Well, when the first mythos-baddie showed up, we all pulled our standard
plan, which was to run like hell. Tough Guy pulled out his toys and went
after the creature, and quickly became Dimensional Shambler Chow(TM). The
best part is that the player freaked out on us, calling us cowards, etc.,
and swore never to game with us again. Our loss, I guess.

D.

David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design
Oakland, California
http://www.lowephoto.com.

"The logic of worldly sucess rests on a fallacy: the strange error that our
perfection depends upon the thought and opinions and applause of other men."

-Thomas Merton
Message no. 4
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:43:06 EST
In a message dated 98-02-23 20:00:52 EST, dlowe@****.COM writes:

> Well, when the first mythos-baddie showed up, we all pulled our standard
> plan, which was to run like hell. Tough Guy pulled out his toys and went
> after the creature, and quickly became Dimensional Shambler Chow(TM). The
> best part is that the player freaked out on us, calling us cowards, etc.,
> and swore never to game with us again. Our loss, I guess.
>
> D.
>
Mr. Lowe, was the DSC(TM) with or without salt?
-K
Message no. 5
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:01:27 -0700
Fade wrote:
/
/ > ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
/
/ PERMISSION TO SPEAK, SIR! YES SIR!

Oi. <sigh> :)

/ Um.. where were I? Oh yes. Munchkins.
/
/ I have run into .. hm.. one which was, and as far as I know is,
/ totally incorrigible, and almost a running joke in our group. He
/ cheats at *everything* he can cheat at to gain any advantage. In
/ Daggerfall, guess who found out how to cast superpowerful spells for
/ free? Can sit days in front of a CRPG to get that maxed out starting
/ char? And so on. He's also a friend, a good one at that. Well, he is
/ everything that has been said about munchkins, too.

True story. Once upon and Ad$D game we had this player that cheated
on his dice rolls (rolls one thing, calls out something else).

The player's character (a Paladin, believe it or not) wanders off
from the group and steps around the corner and is confronted by a
Vampire. "Roll a d10," the GM says. <rattle> "1," the player
answers (remember, a 1 is good for initiative). "Congradulations,
you're suprised," says the GM. The players mouth hangs open and he
splutters as he looks down at his dice (which I can see is a 10). I
stiffle my laughter. The GM knows he's just cheated. The player
knows the GM knows. But the player can't admit he just cheated and
that he really rolled a 10 and isn't the least bit suprised. 2 life
levels later the party runs around the corner to help the Paladin :)

After talking with the GM later he said he originally asked for the
d10 roll for initiative, but changed his mind after it came up "1".
:-D

-David

--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 6
From: "David R. Lowe" <dlowe@****.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:23:25 -0800
At 8:43 PM -0500 2/23/98, J. Keith Henry wrote:
>In a message dated 98-02-23 20:00:52 EST, dlowe@****.COM writes:
>
>> Well, when the first mythos-baddie showed up, we all pulled our standard
>> plan, which was to run like hell. Tough Guy pulled out his toys and went
>> after the creature, and quickly became Dimensional Shambler Chow(TM). The
>> best part is that the player freaked out on us, calling us cowards, etc.,
>> and swore never to game with us again. Our loss, I guess.
>>
>> D.
>>
>Mr. Lowe, was the DSC(TM) with or without salt?
>-K

With Powder of Ibn-Ghazi, of course!

D.


David R. Lowe (dlowe@*********.com)
Photography/Design
Oakland, California
http://www.lowephoto.com.

"The logic of worldly sucess rests on a fallacy: the strange error that our
perfection depends upon the thought and opinions and applause of other men."

-Thomas Merton
Message no. 7
From: Kristling Ravenwing <kristling@*******.CROSSWINDS.NET>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:29:20 -0500
Thanks, guts. Your comments are helping me "pent-up" enough anger to write my
rant colum on my web page next month.
Guts?
I meant guys there, didn't I?
I've been watching too many "Lexx" repeats on CityTV...
Someone send me some spoo, the taste may wake me up...
Some of you *will* get this.
<runs but is shoot down by gridsec OT carp Cannon divison.>
>>>>>["War- qwhat a tragic mirrior. Bravery, hope, and thrills of
victory-
cowardice, despair, and bitter defeat."
Reach me at kristling@*******.crosswinds.net
ICQ UIN: 6642462
www.crosswind.com/toronto/~kristling/ holds my weekly updated
webpage.]<<<<<
--Kristling (the Weird) Ravenwing, Aka Daniel Sauve (say "SO-
vey"!), Josha Dube, Ken masters, D, Samson Primal, Josha the Strange, Dexter,
Ricochet..... </>
Message no. 8
From: Dust <rogan@******.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:44:48 -0800
I've been having a blast reading all of these responses!

It is time for Dust to share his GMing Munchkins story. In the beginning,
Dust was a newbie GM ('bout three years ago) I did not yet know the
delicate balance of give and take which is the relationship between the GM
and PC. Therefore, the first SRII campaign I ran was with 'two
munchkins.' (Back then I was giving more than I was taking) It was still
fun however. At that point, both GMs and PCs were learning the basics, so
the GM made that cardinal error of making the NPCs superhard to match up
with the munchkins. This eventually got burned out and we moved to
Campaign #2.

Campaign #2 came and went. Before Campaign #3, we all sat down on a table
and had a nice long discussion. This time around, we did the background
first. I have to say this little 'trick' really decreases a lot of
munchkinism. It is always better to bend the character creation rules to
match the background then vice versa! In the previous campaigns I found
myself working too much in hindsight. (where did you get the Barret Sniper
Rifle and monofilament whip again?)

Campaign #5 was with a different group. (Campaign #3 was still going at
the time go) This was the absolute worst group of munchkins I've ever had
the misfortune to lay my eyes upon! I felt sorry for them in the
beginning because the only experience they had role-playing before that
time were only computer games and MUDDs {multi-user dungeons you can
telnet to} However, ALL of them were looting every corpse they came
upon, kill everyone they met, steal anything from anyone {including each
other}, and destroy all public property. If their characters were
maurading psychopaths this would have been sorta fine but the characters
weren't. The campaign grew sooo unbearable I tossed all feelings of pity
into the air and did one of the most traumatic act in role-playing ever:
I killed the entire group. It's a long story but the bottome line was
that if they had they been able to quash their munchkinish desires they
would have survived.

After this, Campaign #3 was still running but I started Campaign #6 with
different people with one 'survivor' from the ill-fated campaign #5. That
guy actually finally turned out to be a pretty good role-player in the
end. His first experience taught him a good lesson and better to cull 4
munchkins to get 1 decent PC. *evil GM laugh* Anyhow, one person could
not inhibit his munchkinish train of thought during character creation. I
budged a little this time and he played a were-bear. This was before SR
companion so I improvised. The most humorous aspect was that he had the
mentality of a munchkin still but it fit perfectly with the mindset of a
bear. he had destroyed at least 35 sets of clothing at inopportunate
times and had been hunted by the authorities the whole campaign. He
played an uncivilized brute and that was his character, so it was fine!
So there's another piece of advice for GMs, if a munchkin plays incredibly
stupidly, suggest a slightly not so intelligent character for him!
{accept don't let him know that an intelligence of 1 can be inhibiting!}

All campaigns afterwards have had no munchkins. Munchkinish behavior
arises on occasion but it is easily put down. Experience is the best
teacher. Like the previous post said, don't bend to munchkins. Run your
campaign the way you AND your PCs want it. The best campaigns are the
ones that are finely balanced by GM and PC.

Well there's my two bits,

Dust

P.S. There is an article on munchkinism on my webpage by one of my
role-playing friends. (I drew the pictures on it though) It's at
www.teenvoice.com/trendz/fanboy in the Fantasy Shelf section.
Message no. 9
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:38:08 GMT
On Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:36:15 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:

> (I started off with the intention of writing a short note, but somehow I
> ended up with a short essay. Enjoy :)
>
> Re: How to GM Munchkins

[Good stuff (and sad stuff) snipped]



Here's a related question regarding munchkins. I'd appreciate input:

If you don't like munchkins when you're a referee, you probably don't like
them when you're a player as well. It can be (relatively) easy to control
"munchkinism" in a game that *you* control. So let's say that you are a
player in an RPG, not the referee. One or two of the other players have
characters possessing various levels of "munchkinism". The campaign still
stresses roleplaying, but the ref *doesn't* seem to mind (ie: s/he does
nothing to hamper their behaviour). How do you react:

a) tell the ref that you think so-n-so's character is a munchkin and would
appreciate it if s/he would have a talk with them?

b) build a munchkin character yourself, in an escalating arms race?

c) say that "munchkinism" doesn't affect you and continue playing?

d) leave the game?

e) other?

BTW, "E" is the answer I am hoping for, along with examples or ideas on how
to combat munchkinism from another player's POV (or to make non-munchkin
characters more enjoyable to play under such circumstances). If you don't
like munchkins when you ref, how do you tolerate them when you're a player?



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:00:50 +1000
James Lindsay writes:

[how do you deal with munchkins?]
>a) tell the ref that you think so-n-so's character is a munchkin and would
> appreciate it if s/he would have a talk with them?
>
>b) build a munchkin character yourself, in an escalating arms race?
>
>c) say that "munchkinism" doesn't affect you and continue playing?
>
>d) leave the game?
>
>e) other?


I've never had the misfortune of playing with a munchkin in SR, but the last
time I played "Boot Hill" (a Wild West game even MORE lethal than SR), we
had a serious munchkin in the group.

We rode in to town, hitched our horses against the post of the local saloon
and went in and had a drink. Munchie went around the back, unpacked his
dynamite, and decided to try to blow the safe up. Five minutes later,
there's a big BOOM!!! and we rush out to have a look. Munchie is running
like crazy, a sack of money over his shoulder. In mild curiosity, I ask how
big the sack is, and I'm told that it looks like it contains about 50 kilos
worth (silver dollars, not gold). I point out how likely it is for anyone to
run very fast with that much weight on his back... the GM thought it over
and said "OK, Munchie, you eventually reach your horse, but the three
deputy's in the bar run out and pin you to the ground. Guess you just took
too long."

In other words, sometimes the best ways of dealing with munchies is to point
out how extreme they have gone. (I mean, he could have stolen like two kilos
of silver, stuffed it in his pants, and gotten away no problems.)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 11
From: "Carlton B. Davis" <davisc74@***.ACS.UWOSH.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:30:42 -0600
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, James Lindsay wrote:

> Here's a related question regarding munchkins. I'd appreciate input:
>
> If you don't like munchkins when you're a referee, you probably don't like
> them when you're a player as well. It can be (relatively) easy to control
> "munchkinism" in a game that *you* control. So let's say that you are a
> player in an RPG, not the referee. One or two of the other players have
> characters possessing various levels of "munchkinism". The campaign still
> stresses roleplaying, but the ref *doesn't* seem to mind (ie: s/he does
> nothing to hamper their behaviour). How do you react:
>
> e) other?
>
I'm not sure how it's going to work out, but in a campaign I'm involved in
now, there is one character who seems to have munchkin tendancies, and
since our last group was wiped out by security, we all had to start
essentially a new campaign. I managed to convince everyone that instead
of just playing the run of the mill shadowrun team, we should run our own
pirate trid station, where we broadcast shadowruns... kinda like COPS,
only we're calling it RUNNERS. While everyone still gets to use their
fancy bang-bang toys, I'm hoping it will at least get them mugging for the
cameras in combat and doing a bit more than killing off anyone who gets in
the way.

Details for the interested:
So far, we've decided on a few fun toys. Our armor will have space on the
back <YOUR COMPANY LOGO HERE> in big letters, until we can get someone to
pay us for advertising... We're using non-lethal weapons to help keep the
cops off our backs (And maybe those sec-guards won't be as quick to shoot
if they know we're not going to kill them, and we're gonna make 'em
famous.) We also have one of our group set up to record simsense. (You
liked watching runners this week? How'd you like to Live The Run?) The
signal is sent back to our broadcast van, where it's delayed 10 minutes
for editing. During dull moments in the run, such as sneaking down
hallways or hiding from patrols, we'll throw in commercials. (Bob's Gun
Emporium is a proud sponser of RUNNERS... Need a bullet taken out? Talk To
Doc Dicer, etc...) We're starting off by just patching into the cable
system, but eventually we're hoping to broadcast over satelite.

By the way, if anyone has done any work with Simsense editing gear, can
you give me some tips about costs? I checked in Shadowbeat, and it
doesn't seem to make much sense. Based on the description, you need
anywhere from 4-48 of those EC/PC things for an editor, and if you use
that as a guideline, you come up with a simple editor for home use costing
around 1,000,000 nuyen, and a studio grade one costing over 17 million. I
think the way we're going to be doing it will be that each editor just
needs one EC/PC, which will count as the 4-48 that they talk about in the
description.

Ah well, it's fun to finally use Shadowbeat for something.
Message no. 12
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:09:04 -0600
> >Mr. Lowe, was the DSC(TM) with or without salt?
> >-K
>
> With Powder of Ibn-Ghazi, of course!

Did it have A Glazin-ofaxiniferous Doodlewomper to?
--
What are you Bulking up to? Fatass? Superfatass? -Southpark kids
Message no. 13
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:15 -0600
Kristling Ravenwing wrote:
>
> Thanks, guts. Your comments are helping me "pent-up" enough anger to write
my
> rant colum on my web page next month.
> Guts?
> I meant guys there, didn't I?
> I've been watching too many "Lexx" repeats on CityTV...
> Someone send me some spoo, the taste may wake me up...
> Some of you *will* get this.
> <runs but is shoot down by gridsec OT carp Cannon divison.>
And the List rejoices that another ot er is down in the dust.Uh oh.
<Also being chased and shot down by Gridsec Carp cannon>
;-]
--
What are you Bulking up to? Fatass? Superfatass? -Southpark kids
Message no. 14
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:34:36 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
/
/ James Lindsay writes:
/
/ [how do you deal with munchkins?]
/ >a) tell the ref that you think so-n-so's character is a munchkin and would
/ > appreciate it if s/he would have a talk with them?

See below.

/ >b) build a munchkin character yourself, in an escalating arms race?

It doesn't work. The arms race becomes the focus of the game and
roleplaying goes right out the window.

/ >c) say that "munchkinism" doesn't affect you and continue playing?

This is a co-option. I.e., continue to play the game the way you
want and have your character react accordingly to the actions of the
munchkin's character. If he pulls out his weapons and opens up on
the little old lady, don't help, and don't ever run with that psycho
again. What players often fail to understand is that your character
doesn't *have* to work with the other players characters. Most of my
characters would react to a munchkin's character by not calling him
the next time my PC gets a job. Or if he shows up at the Johnson's
meet and the MPC is there, tell the Johnson he won't work with MPC. At
least one of my PCs would buy a sniper rifle and kack the MPC.

Of course, this doesn't deal with the munchkin himself, only his
characters.

/ >d) leave the game?

Only if the GM and other players co-conspire with the Munchkin. See
below.

/ >e) other?

Talk to the player and/or the GM. You can talk to the GM first to
feel out his opinion and viewpoint on the munchkin. But if you
really want to deal with the issue you have to talk to the munchkin
on your own. If you talk to the munchkin in a calm rational manner
and he responds negatively, then talk to the GM *and* the other
players. If no one else is willing to talk to the munchkin, or kick
him out of the group, then start looking for another group. If a few
of the other players that are sick of the munchkin you might form a
new group with them.

But, try to work it out before you think about leaving.

/ ...sometimes the best ways of dealing with munchies is to point
/ out how extreme they have gone. (I mean, he could have stolen like two kilos
/ of silver, stuffed it in his pants, and gotten away no problems.)

Ditto that. When I'm playing I'll generally sit still when one of
the other players and the GM forget a rule, unless it's a major
rule. But when a munchkin is "forgetting" rules I'm all over him.

-David
--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 15
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:21:59 +0000
And verily, did David Buehrer hastily scribble thusly...
|That's when I figured out the defining characteristics of munchkins.
|They are selfish with a capital S.
|
|Now, everyone is selfish to some extent. But munchkins *always* put
|their needs before the needs of others. If their needs aren't being
|met, its someone else's fault. Munchkin #2 blamed me for the
|destruction of his PC's limo.

Reminds me of a game I was playing.
The players noticed the munchkin was fudging dice rolls (and thus cheating),
and at the end of the run, the turned on him and killed him.
And he blamed ME for his death, for allowing the characters to attack him.
(who am I to dictate what the players do with their characters? I play the
game world, not other peoples characters....)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 16
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:41:21 +0000
And verily, did Wyrmy hastily scribble thusly...
|
|> >Mr. Lowe, was the DSC(TM) with or without salt?
|> >-K
|>
|> With Powder of Ibn-Ghazi, of course!
|
|Did it have A Glazin-ofaxiniferous Doodlewomper to?

Huh?
At least powder of Ibn-Ghazi is a gaming term....
Can't remember what it DOES, but it's part of the Cthulu mythos...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 17
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:51:46 -0500
James Lindsay[SMTP:jlindsay@******.CA] wrote:
> Here's a related question regarding munchkins. I'd appreciate input:
>
> If you don't like munchkins when you're a referee, you probably don't like
> them when you're a player as well. It can be (relatively) easy to control
> "munchkinism" in a game that *you* control. So let's say that you are a
> player in an RPG, not the referee.
[snip]
> a) tell the ref that you think so-n-so's character is a munchkin and would
> appreciate it if s/he would have a talk with them?

I wouldn't do that in so many words. I'd probably try and show the GM
what effect the munchkin was having on the game world (blowing through
challenges without effort, etc) and what I think would make the game
more fun.

> b) build a munchkin character yourself, in an escalating arms race?

Not directly... See below.

> c) say that "munchkinism" doesn't affect you and continue playing?

Nope.

> d) leave the game?

Only in extreme cases.

> e) other?

Well, I've got a couple of ideas. One is to build a character that's
unbalanced in another direction - munchies tend to unbalance in the
direction of combat abilities, but rarely in say social. They don't
seem to realize that charisma 6 + cultured tailored pheromones + that
social -1 to TNs edge + high social skills is just as gross, and
usually much more interesting to play. This is basically the first
step that I see - showing them that a non-combative character can be
helpful to the party, as well as fun to play.

The other is to build an annoying character. If a munchie builds a
combat god, they probably have a charisma of 1 and few (if any) social,
technical or knowledge skills. So build a smart, charismatic PC with
a raft of such skills and have them constantly insult, taunt, etc the
munchkin's character (you have to be very careful here that the
munchie doesn't take it personally, though). Either they'll take the
hint or they'll geek your char. Build another.

James Ojaste
Message no. 18
From: Mike Russell <MgkellyMJ7@***.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:01:32 EST
In a message dated 98-02-24 10:34:09 EST, you write:

<< This is a co-option. I.e., continue to play the game the way you
want and have your character react accordingly to the actions of the
munchkin's character. If he pulls out his weapons and opens up on
the little old lady, don't help, and don't ever run with that psycho
again. What players often fail to understand is that your character
doesn't *have* to work with the other players characters. Most of my
characters would react to a munchkin's character by not calling him
the next time my PC gets a job. Or if he shows up at the Johnson's
meet and the MPC is there, tell the Johnson he won't work with MPC. At
least one of my PCs would buy a sniper rifle and kack the MPC.
>>

in the game i play in, we (the PC's) [okay, it was me, not everybody else]
convinced the Munchie to attack a big nasty Air Elemental with his spurs (i
know, i've told this story about a dozen times....), knowing full well that he
would be killed, because the Elemenatl was much to powerful to be taken down
by a Street Sam Munchie with a Willpower of 3 (quote: "why do i need a high
Willpower? i'm not a mage" ). many Munchies are foolish enough to allow
themselves to be tricked into being cannon-fodder. just play on their "tough-
guy" image ;]
Message no. 19
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:05:45 -0700
Mike Russell wrote:
/
/ in the game i play in, we (the PC's) [okay, it was me, not everybody else]
/ convinced the Munchie to attack a big nasty Air Elemental with his spurs (i
/ know, i've told this story about a dozen times....), knowing full well that he
/ would be killed, because the Elemenatl was much to powerful to be taken down
/ by a Street Sam Munchie with a Willpower of 3 (quote: "why do i need a high
/ Willpower? i'm not a mage" ). many Munchies are foolish enough to allow
/ themselves to be tricked into being cannon-fodder. just play on their "tough-
/ guy" image ;]

As fun as that is (and it is fun :) after the munchkin's character
has been killed he just goes to work on a bigger, stronger
character. The trick is to take advantage of his gullibility without
killing him ;)

One of the evilist things I've ever seen was when a GM *didn't* kill
a munchkin's character. The MPC, in an AD$D game, did something
completely against his alignment and the GM called him on it. In
order to advance his character the MPC had to abide by his
character's alignment and meet some other criteria. The munchkin
tried for awhile, but it was so against his nature that he was
miserable.

-David
--
"Laugh and grow strong."
- St. Ignatius of Loyola
--
ShadowRN GridSec: Enforcer Division
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 20
From: Matthias Kerzel <MKerzel@***.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:05:46 EST
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:38:08 GMT James Lindsay wrote:

<snip>
>Here's a related question regarding munchkins. I'd appreciate input:

>If you don't like munchkins when you're a referee, you probably don't like
>them when you're a player as well. It can be (relatively) easy to control
>"munchkinism" in a game that *you* control. So let's say that you are a
>player in an RPG, not the referee. One or two of the other players have
>characters possessing various levels of "munchkinism". The campaign still
>stresses roleplaying, but the ref *doesn't* seem to mind (ie: s/he does
>nothing to hamper their behaviour). How do you react:
<snip>

First, if I know that the munchkin player is not familiar with roleplaying or
a newbe I would try to ignore him and do my best do show what real RPGing
is, I assume no one is a "natural born roleplayer". If the players that
already know how to play just leave the groups they don't like or simple use
their wits to geek the munchkin the munchkins will stay munchkins all their
life.

This only works as long as you can at leas play your character the way you
want. Sometime a single munchkin can 'control' the whole game by having
every skill/gedget/spell handy.

<skip if you don't like stories that don't come from Shadowrun>
This happened to me ones. I was playing a fantasy RPG, two of the characters
were a real munchkin mages who carried around kilos of very rare artefacts
and portions and chatted the whole time about the most effective use of their
spell points. In the end they used spells the players were not expected to
have
to hunt down the bad guy while the rest of the party was bored to death.
("Oh too bad you can not teleport yourself, just wait here.") I only visited
this group ones (and no, it wasn't AD&D).
</skip if you don't like stories that don't come from Shadowrun>

When this happens and you can do nothing but wait till the big boyz have
done the job the game becomes quite boring. I don't mean only combat,
munchkins tent to have the best stats everywhere and the real fun parts of
roleplaying like relationships etc. are not part of most campaigns with
munchies on board. It can even get worse if the munchies don't
respect what you say and kill your character If he doesn't do what they say.
This would have happened to one of my chars in on a convention if the GM
wouldn't have been an anti-munchkin, too. When this is the case talk openly
to the whole group, including the munchkin(s), the GM and the other players,
may be you are not the only one who feels this way. Personally I hate those
secret private discussions between two persons. In the end the outcome of
the discussion will affect the whole group and everyone will have his own
opinion to ad.

If you and the munchy player are good friends in RL try to be as polite as
possible 'cause this is an easy way to ruin a friendship.
(this, drugs and sharp objects) :)

And please don't accept a munchy to change instantly. Keep showing
him what good RPGing is and keep telling him that what he does is
unrealistic or selfish. As said above, everybody needs time to learn.
Becoming a good roleplayer doesn't happen from one day to
the other.

But if you get the feeling that no one is willing to listen to you,
leave the group.

that's how I feel about it
- Matthias
Message no. 21
From: Mike Russell <MgkellyMJ7@***.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing Munchkins
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:56:50 EST
In a message dated 98-02-25 10:05:17 EST, you write:

<< As fun as that is (and it is fun :) after the munchkin's character
has been killed he just goes to work on a bigger, stronger
character. The trick is to take advantage of his gullibility without
killing him ;) >>

my GM stepped in after said said he wanted to use one of his old chars. i
immediately said "well, shit i want to use one of my old ones too." and
whipped out the Combat Shaman that i had played since 2nd Edition came out.
the GM had already said 'HELL no!' to the idea, i just wanted to make the
Munchie trun green ;]
fortunately, the GM 'assisted' the Munchie in constructing a new character
which would blend in better with the group (ie, one that we wouldn't heap so
much shit on ;] )

and we heaped a lot of shit on the boy....

and i had the biggest shovel!! ;]

Mgkelly

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about GMing Munchkins, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!