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Message no. 1
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: GMing problems.
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:18:46 -0500
Lately in the campaign I've been running problems have come up which all
seem to stem from one issue. In the party two clicks have developed. One
basically technically orientated only interested in making money. The second
magically orientated who want to save the world. Lately the haven't benn
sharing information critical to the missions I put together. Also the
haven't done anything but butt heads against each other. I want to dissolve
the clicks and form them into the team they were susposed to be. I'd like to
ask for suggestions on how to do this on a much more covert level instead of
throwing things that if they don't work together they are gonna end up dead.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 2
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:16:22 EST
On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:18:46 -0500 NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
writes:
>Lately in the campaign I've been running problems have come up which all
>seem to stem from one issue. In the party two clicks have developed. One
>basically technically orientated only interested in making money. The
second
>magically orientated who want to save the world. Lately the haven't been
>sharing information critical to the missions I put together. Also the
>haven't done anything but butt heads against each other. I want to
dissolve
>the clicks and form them into the team they were susposed to be. I'd
like to
>ask for suggestions on how to do this on a much more covert level
instead of
>throwing things that if they don't work together they are gonna end up
>dead.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.

My first , knee-jerk reaction to that is to put them in a situation where
if they both follow their respective 'paths' to the hilt, that they will
end up on oposite sides of the battle field (so to speak).

Of course you could also put them in a situation where, if they want to
either a) make the most money, or b) save the world that they will end up
NEEDING the other half of the group to pull it off.....i.e. give them a
'save the world' mission that requires the techies, and, quite possibly
at the same time, a major cash-cow that requires the magicians...if they
don't cooperate, don't kill them, just do something worse, make them fail
to get what they want.

~Tim
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:48:20 -0700
NightLife wrote:
|
| Lately in the campaign I've been running problems have come up which all
| seem to stem from one issue. In the party two clicks have developed. One
| basically technically orientated only interested in making money. The second
| magically orientated who want to save the world. Lately the haven't benn
| sharing information critical to the missions I put together. Also the
| haven't done anything but butt heads against each other. I want to dissolve
| the clicks and form them into the team they were susposed to be. I'd like to
| ask for suggestions on how to do this on a much more covert level instead of
| throwing things that if they don't work together they are gonna end up dead.

I *played* in a game where this happened. The GM killed
all of our characters, and afterwords told us exactly why
they died. It was the right thing to do.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 4
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:04:35 +1000
Hi to all, and hopefully the list is up and working again...

NightLife wrote:
>Lately in the campaign I've been running problems have come up which all
>seem to stem from one issue. In the party two clicks have developed. One
>basically technically orientated only interested in making money. The second
>magically orientated who want to save the world. Lately the haven't benn
>sharing information critical to the missions I put together. Also the
>haven't done anything but butt heads against each other. I want to dissolve
>the clicks and form them into the team they were susposed to be. I'd like to
>ask for suggestions on how to do this on a much more covert level instead of
>throwing things that if they don't work together they are gonna end up dead.


Hm. If the technically inclined is only out to make money, then let
him make money. Why not? If he shows signs of anti-group behavior,
make him sweat, make him lose some of his money (a car crash? His
apartment burned out? One of his cyber-systems damaged beyond repair?
Extremely high hospitalization costs? Gee, there's so much
possibilities out there, just grab 'em! ;) )

Another, different point alltogether is that they don't share vital
information. The results are easy to explain:
1) harmless run AND no shared information = run is blown, they end up
alive, without being paid, reputation goes down
2) dangerous run AND no shared information = run is blown, they end
up dying or dead, without being paid, reputation - reputation?
REPUTATION? Bwahahahahahaaaaaa!!!

Just think about it. Would you as a Mr. Johnson hire two morons who headbutt each
other? I mean, would you spend precious money on such idiots? Me,
I wouldn't.

Still, I think, roleplaying is a learning-by-doing thing. I don't
know what your SR world looks like, mine is a crual, dark, and almost
unbearable world. Being a runner means eeking out money, somehow, to
survive. Behaving like plain braindead wireheads seriously lowers the
chance to make money. No money, no life. Running the shadows is a
thing of cooperation within a "code of honor" that is necessary to
survive. IMHO, there's no run without cooperation.


:)
BulletShower
______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 5
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:39:44 -0500
On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, David Buehrer wrote:

> NightLife wrote:
> |
> | Lately in the campaign I've been running problems have come up which all
> | seem to stem from one issue. In the party two clicks have developed. One
> | basically technically orientated only interested in making money. The second
> | magically orientated who want to save the world. Lately the haven't benn
> | sharing information critical to the missions I put together. Also the
> | haven't done anything but butt heads against each other. I want to dissolve
> | the clicks and form them into the team they were susposed to be. I'd like to
> | ask for suggestions on how to do this on a much more covert level instead of
> | throwing things that if they don't work together they are gonna end up dead.
>
I would place a tech person with a magic person in a situation
where they are alone with each other and have to support each other to
survive. Do this pairing to everyone and perhaps they will start to
develop better team working skills.
I ran a campaign with a street samurai and a mage and they did
wonders together.
Dust
Message no. 6
From: Faux Pas <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:01:55 -0600
At 09:18 PM 1/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Lately in the campaign I've been running problems have come up which all
>seem to stem from one issue. In the party two clicks have developed. One
>basically technically orientated only interested in making money. The second
>magically orientated who want to save the world. Lately the haven't benn
>sharing information critical to the missions I put together. Also the
>haven't done anything but butt heads against each other. I want to dissolve
>the clicks and form them into the team they were susposed to be.

Give them a run that has lots of clues that need to be put together to
solve or finish the run. Have the Johnson supervise the run or be able to
check up on them from time to time during the run. Add an NPC runner, if
you don't have a character in there. If they act like twits, holding out
on information or constantly bitching at each other, they'll blow the run.
Don't hesitate to maim or kill one of the characters for acting stupidly.

In the fallout, have the Johnson berate them for acting unprofessionally
and ask them why the hell they're running together. Don't let Mr J stick
around for the answer, he'll be mad at the runners and storm out. Have the
NPC get equally mad at one of the groups and storm off.

Perhaps they'll get the hint.

Do you do in-between runs? If so, that's a good time to take the
tech/money boys and put them against a magical threat - or even if during a
run they split up into the two cliques - something that's very difficult to
get through if they didn't have their magical/save-the-world buddies. Do
the same thing for the other group.

If all else fails, take the gamers aside after the end of the next run's
imminent failure and explain that [a] the runners don't get along, [b]
there's no reason for the runners to stick together, [c] in the Shadowrun
universe, the runners would have separated and formed their own teams, and
[d] you're not having fun, so why the hell are you playing? So, they
should [e] get their heads out of their butts and [f] work it out. Don't
take sides in the ensuing discussion/argument, just point out why the
running group has fallen apart and wait for the players to come up with a
solution.

Chances are, one side will want to keep thier characters and the others
will have to come up with new characters. If they're good roleplayers,
it'll be no problem. If you think that there will be some resentment, have
them create new characters.




-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"If we have a destiny, then so had he. And if this is ours, and that was
his and if there are no explanations for us, let there be none for him."
- Guildenstern
Message no. 7
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:51:00 -0800
> I would place a tech person with a magic person in a situation
> where they are alone with each other and have to support each other to
> survive. Do this pairing to everyone and perhaps they will start to
> develop better team working skills.

And add some fun to the mix!
An even stranger twist of 'The Odd Coven'.

> I ran a campaign with a street samurai and a mage and they did
> wonders together.

Definitely. In our game, we are more effective when the Physad and the
Decker team together, with the Druid and Scotsman making the other 'team'.
We've found it works wonders for Roleplaying, and our own understanding of
the game. (Like having to explain to the Scotsman why Line-of-Sight is
Line-of-Sight, or why not to move the meat bod!)

--

Dvixen dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:53:27 -0500
>> I ran a campaign with a street samurai and a mage and they did
>> wonders together.
>
>Definitely. In our game, we are more effective when the Physad and the
>Decker team together, with the Druid and Scotsman making the other 'team'.
>We've found it works wonders for Roleplaying, and our own understanding of
>the game. (Like having to explain to the Scotsman why Line-of-Sight is
>Line-of-Sight, or why not to move the meat bod!)
>
My main group consists of just two characters... My Ork Decker (With
Rigging and Combat Skills), and my buddy pplaying Johnny 99, a Coyote Shaman.

It works very well this way, as we cover all bases... In fact, we work
better by ourselves than we do in a group...:):):)

The Magic and Tech mix is always a wise move on a team's part...

Bull
--
Bull-the-cuddley-Kojack-imitating-Star-Wars-lovin'-ork-decker

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

Less than 2 weeks till Star Wars!
Message no. 9
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:23:26 -0500
>My main group consists of just two characters... My Ork Decker (With
>Rigging and Combat Skills), and my buddy pplaying Johnny 99, a Coyote Shaman.
>
>It works very well this way, as we cover all bases... In fact, we work
>better by ourselves than we do in a group...:):):)
>
>The Magic and Tech mix is always a wise move on a team's part...

I wish the did meld abilities and talents. Click one only wants click two
around when they need them. But when the roles are reversed HAH!. You gotta
pay me to help. That's the general attitude right now. I know why Click two
doesn't want to share info. I wouldn't if that how I was treated.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 10
From: Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:33:05 +0800
>Lately in the campaign I've been running problems have come up which all
>seem to stem from one issue. In the party two clicks have developed. One
>basically technically orientated only interested in making money. The=
second
>magically orientated who want to save the world. Lately the haven't benn
>sharing information critical to the missions I put together. Also the
>haven't done anything but butt heads against each other. I want to dissolve
>the clicks and form them into the team they were susposed to be. I'd like=
to
>ask for suggestions on how to do this on a much more covert level instead=
of
>throwing things that if they don't work together they are gonna end up=
dead.

A problem that I am sure more than one GM has faced (in any game). The first
rule to remember is that roleplaying is ALL about having fun. The people
(real life players) must enjoy themselves, otherwise you will end up with no
players. Therefore, I think you should let them do what they want and they
will learn their own lessons. CASE EXAMPLE....

Dregg wants to only make money from adventures. While Sui only wants to save
the World and live harmonously. Send them on a run that pays very little ¥
(I love that symbol - thanks people) BUT with a promise that it could lead
to a WHOLE lot more ¥ if they "play their cards right". Promise Sui a=
great
campaign with lots of good deeds to be accomplished and the added hint that
Karma might be issued generously. (Maybe something like rescuing the Yakuzza
leader who wants to end corruption and warfare from the rebel Yakuzza group.
Make it clear that this could only help the well being of the World etc etc
etc). THEN make Dregg's and Sui's respective goals dependant on the others.
The players will soon learn that they must work as a team to help meet the
TEAMS goals. ...... a bit idealistic but c'est la vie!

Gav


"In crises the most daring email: lewis@**.edu.au
course is often the safest" tel: +61 9 239 5525
fax: +61 9 239 5544
Henry A. Kissinger Gavin Lewis
The University of Notre Dame - Aust.
Message no. 11
From: Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:58:16 +0800
>Chances are, one side will want to keep thier characters and the others
>will have to come up with new characters. If they're good roleplayers,
>it'll be no problem. If you think that there will be some resentment, have
>them create new characters.

Unless it is a real life personality trait that the players can NOT get out
of their respective roleplaying models. Maybe have them make new characters
and get the "money worshippers" to play the "save the world dudes" and
vice
versa. This should give them a good exercise in roleplaying! :)

Gav


"In crises the most daring email: lewis@**.edu.au
course is often the safest" tel: +61 9 239 5525
fax: +61 9 239 5544
Henry A. Kissinger Gavin Lewis
The University of Notre Dame - Aust.
Message no. 12
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:50:54 -0800
Bull wrote:
>
> >> I ran a campaign with a street samurai and a mage and they did
> >> wonders together.
> >
> >Definitely. In our game, we are more effective when the Physad and the
> >Decker team together, with the Druid and Scotsman making the other 'team'.
> >We've found it works wonders for Roleplaying, and our own understanding of
> >the game. (Like having to explain to the Scotsman why Line-of-Sight is
> >Line-of-Sight, or why not to move the meat bod!)
> >
> My main group consists of just two characters... My Ork Decker (With
> Rigging and Combat Skills), and my buddy pplaying Johnny 99, a Coyote Shaman.
>
> It works very well this way, as we cover all bases... In fact, we work
> better by ourselves than we do in a group...:):):)
>
> The Magic and Tech mix is always a wise move on a team's part...
>

I don't think his problem is Magic vs. tech, so much as motivational
sterotypes, generally mages want to save the world, Sam's want to make
money, or so they say.
Message no. 13
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:50:11 -0500
>A problem that I am sure more than one GM has faced (in any game). The first
>rule to remember is that roleplaying is ALL about having fun. The people
>(real life players) must enjoy themselves, otherwise you will end up with no
>players.

The players! What about me, I sure don't have any fun listening to 3 hours
of bitching. As for losing them buddy I've got five others who are just
itching for a spot in my campaign. I've had to tell people no because I've
run out of space. I don't do this for my health. I could easily find other
ways to occupy my time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 14
From: Faux Pas <thomas@********.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:47:39 -0600
>>A problem that I am sure more than one GM has faced (in any game). The first
>>rule to remember is that roleplaying is ALL about having fun. The people
>>(real life players) must enjoy themselves, otherwise you will end up with no
>>players.

>The players! What about me, I sure don't have any fun listening to 3 hours
>of bitching. As for losing them buddy I've got five others who are just
>itching for a spot in my campaign. I've had to tell people no because I've
>run out of space. I don't do this for my health. I could easily find other
>ways to occupy my time.

You're the GM. You should have as much fun as the other people in the
group. If you're suffering because of everyone else in the game, why play
with them?

Like I said, just tell them the character conflicts are taking over the
game, and you're not having fun. Tell them to come up with a solution, or
it's time to trash the old characters.

It does sound as if each faction is going to try to hold onto their
characters and make the other group leave. If this happens, retire the old
characters and make the players come up with all-new characters (not the
same old characters with different names). If the new group divides down
the same line, tell them you've got five others who are just itching for a
spot in the campaign and you're going to GM them because your current group
has problems between the players - not characters.

Start anew.




-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"Fnord."
Message no. 15
From: Faux Pas <thomas@********.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:07:18 -0600
>A problem that I am sure more than one GM has faced (in any game). The first
>rule to remember is that roleplaying is ALL about having fun. The people
>(real life players) must enjoy themselves, otherwise you will end up with no
>players. Therefore, I think you should let them do what they want and they
>will learn their own lessons.

Can't disagree with you more.

Why should a GM suffer for the sake of four to six others? RPGs are games
- everyone is a player of the game (although our terminology of GM and
player causes one to forget that the GM also plays the game). Everyone
should have fun playing the game. Let them (the non-GMs) do what they
want? Not if the GM has to suffer through five hours of players sniping at
each other each week. The GM isn't having fun.

The GM is the one who has to spend twenty minutes to five hours (or more!)
outside of the game coming up with the adventure for each game session.
The GM is usually the one who has spent the money on the majority of the
game system's books. The GM is the one who has to find new and creative
ways to challenge the players. On the other hand, the players have to
spend, let's say two hours total, to create their character. Then they
have to show up, game, and leave until next week. The GM has more invested
in the game - time-wise and money-wise. The GM should damn well get some
enjoyment out of it.

So next time you see your GM, thank him for his hard work. Shower the GM
with love, affection, and yes, money. Multiples of ten preferred, cash
only please.




-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"Fnord."
Message no. 16
From: Faux Pas <thomas@********.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:23:08 -0600
At 02:23 AM 1/22/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I wish the did meld abilities and talents. Click one only wants click two
>around when they need them. But when the roles are reversed HAH!. You gotta
>pay me to help. That's the general attitude right now. I know why Click two
>doesn't want to share info. I wouldn't if that how I was treated.

What I don't understand is why these characters still run together. Sounds
as if you've got two separate, competing running teams. In real life, the
members of clique two would have dumped the members of clique one and
gotten some new friends. It sounds as if the problem is coming from the
money-grubbers and they're the ones that are instigating the whole
bitchfest that's replacing your gaming time.

It also sounds as if the trouble isn't just a character/character thing,
but a player/player conflict. You say you've got five people in reserve
who want to game with you? If you've got a player/player conflict, ask the
social-deficient gamers to leave and bring in the new crew.

Or just tell them that you don't want to GM your current group and start up
a new group with the new people and certain members of the current group
that you can get along with.




-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"Fnord."
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:46:38 +0100
Faux Pas said on 11:07/22 Jan 97...

> Why should a GM suffer for the sake of four to six others? RPGs are games
> - everyone is a player of the game (although our terminology of GM and
> player causes one to forget that the GM also plays the game).

Over the past few years there have been lots of games trying to get rid of
that idea -- calling NPCs "gamemaster characters," the GM
"storyteller,"
and so on. Does anyone think it's working?

> Everyone should have fun playing the game. Let them (the non-GMs) do
> what they want? Not if the GM has to suffer through five hours of
> players sniping at each other each week. The GM isn't having fun.

Agreed. If one or more of the players aren't having fun, the GM and the
other players should do something about that -- get them involved more,
sort of thing. If the GM isn't having fun, IMO the rest should again help
out to make the game enjoyable for the GM as well. If they don't, quit for
a while. Let one of the other players be GM for a few sessions, see if
he/she likes it when the rest of the group is making his/her life
miserable...

> The GM is usually the one who has spent the money on the majority of the
> game system's books.

In my experience, that's what determines who gets to be GM most of the
time. I'm the one who buys games I find interesting, leading me to suggest
"How about playing [fill in a game] next week?" That makes the rest of the
players expect me to know the rules => I get to be the GM.

> So next time you see your GM, thank him for his hard work. Shower the GM
> with love, affection, and yes, money. Multiples of ten preferred, cash
> only please.

Don't forget food and drink... Instead of living off what the GM (who
doesn't want to bring a meter-high pile of books over to someone else's
house) has in the way of food, the players can bring some too.

(This rant would have been much more useful to me personally if any of my
players had access to this list... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I wonder why anyone would want to name their kid after an airport...?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:32:07 -0500
>Why should a GM suffer for the sake of four to six others? RPGs are games
>- everyone is a player of the game (although our terminology of GM and
>player causes one to forget that the GM also plays the game). Everyone
>should have fun playing the game. Let them (the non-GMs) do what they
>want? Not if the GM has to suffer through five hours of players sniping at
>each other each week. The GM isn't having fun.

Hear Hear! As the one stuck being GM for 7 years, I echo your statements!

>The GM is the one who has to spend twenty minutes to five hours (or more!)

Well, I do that part for fun... :)

>The GM is usually the one who has spent the money on the majority of the
>game system's books. The GM is the one who has to find new and creative

Yeah! I have every non-scenario book save Harlequin, UB, and NAGNA.

>in the game - time-wise and money-wise. The GM should damn well get some
>enjoyment out of it.

Yeah!

>So next time you see your GM, thank him for his hard work. Shower the GM
>with love, affection, and yes, money. Multiples of ten preferred, cash
>only please.

I'm poor, and I have to get married. I'll accept any denominations!
/ Brett "SwiftOne" Borger
\\\' , / // bxb121@***.edu
\\\// _/ //' http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/swiftone.htm
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Message no. 19
From: John Chisum <jdc@***.NET>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:03:32 -0800
NightLife wrote:

> I wish the did meld abilities and talents. Click one only wants click two
> around when they need them. But when the roles are reversed HAH!. You gotta
> pay me to help. That's the general attitude right now. I know why Click two
> doesn't want to share info. I wouldn't if that how I was treated.

This is where your GMing skills come in handy. As a GM, the are
situations you put them in if the don't share information or work
together, they'll either be arrested, maimed or dead. Nothing like a
spirt, two panther assult cannons and a vindicator opening up to inspire
cooperation <evil grin>.
Also, mix it up to where they have to share information before a run.
One click doesn't know everything and they need the help and knowledge.
Remember, in this game, information is key, power and their livelyhood.
When both sides figure out they need each other, gaming will become
better and it'll be more of a challenge to you.


-John

Day: Mild-manored DeeJay.
Night: Butt-kicking Puma Shaman!
Message no. 20
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:25:38 -0500
>You're the GM. You should have as much fun as the other people in the
>group. If you're suffering because of everyone else in the game, why play
>with them?


I'm suffering because two of what i thought were loyal players have gotten
attitudes. I take a six week break trying to let thing cool down and go back
to normal. They don't they cop the same attitude and thing don't improve.
Just like I said last night to a moderator. If things don't improve I'm not
going to continue running for them.


>Start anew.
>
Thank for the advice I appreciate it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 21
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:36:02 -0500
>What I don't understand is why these characters still run together. Sounds
>as if you've got two separate, competing running teams. In real life, the
>members of clique two would have dumped the members of clique one and
>gotten some new friends. It sounds as if the problem is coming from the
>money-grubbers and they're the ones that are instigating the whole
>bitchfest that's replacing your gaming time.


You're right on that.


>It also sounds as if the trouble isn't just a character/character thing,
>but a player/player conflict. You say you've got five people in reserve
>who want to game with you? If you've got a player/player conflict, ask the
>social-deficient gamers to leave and bring in the new crew.

I'm one step from doing just that. When this all started in Nov 96 real time
I thought I could fix the problem. But right now if the last attempt to keep
people who up until this point have been loyal players I've already spoken
to then ones I want to keep and the new guys about forming a different group.


Once again thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. I also needed to blow off
steam

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 22
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:03:22 -0800
> >The GM is usually the one who has spent the money on the majority of the
> >game system's books. The GM is the one who has to find new and creative
>
> Yeah! I have every non-scenario book save Harlequin, UB, and NAGNA.
>
> >in the game - time-wise and money-wise. The GM should damn well get some
> >enjoyment out of it.
>
> Yeah!
>
> >So next time you see your GM, thank him for his hard work. Shower the GM
> >with love, affection, and yes, money. Multiples of ten preferred, cash
> >only please.
>
> I'm poor, and I have to get married. I'll accept any denominations!

Hear, hear, hear!

I do believe he`s summed it up!
Message no. 23
From: Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:31:52 +0800
>The players! What about me, I sure don't have any fun listening to 3 hours
>of bitching. As for losing them buddy I've got five others who are just
>itching for a spot in my campaign. I've had to tell people no because I've
>run out of space. I don't do this for my health. I could easily find other
>ways to occupy my time.

If you enjoy 'the other ways to occupy your time' more than GM'ing why
bother GM'ing in the first place. Or if your PC's are p*&%$^# you off that
much why not call on your next five PC's.


"In crises the most daring email: lewis@**.edu.au
course is often the safest" tel: +61 9 239 5525
fax: +61 9 239 5544
Henry A. Kissinger Gavin Lewis
The University of Notre Dame - Aust.
Message no. 24
From: Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:53:40 +0800
>>A problem that I am sure more than one GM has faced (in any game). The first
>>rule to remember is that roleplaying is ALL about having fun. The people
>>(real life players) must enjoy themselves, otherwise you will end up with no
>>players. Therefore, I think you should let them do what they want and they
>>will learn their own lessons.
>
>Can't disagree with you more.

You can not tell your players "I dont like the conflict your characters are
having so scrap them" .... please! In "rl" everyone faces conflicts at
work,
school and family. It is all part of life and roleplaying to deal with these
conflicts. Soon the PC's will learn that their goals can not be met unless
they co operate.

>Why should a GM suffer for the sake of four to six others? RPGs are games
>- everyone is a player of the game (although our terminology of GM and
>player causes one to forget that the GM also plays the game). Everyone
>should have fun playing the game. Let them (the non-GMs) do what they
>want? Not if the GM has to suffer through five hours of players sniping at
>each other each week. The GM isn't having fun.

The whole point is NOT the bitching BUT the characters different views of
the SRII World. One group wants to earn lots of money and one group wants to
save the World. If ones campaign has this conflict then one must look at
ways of combining BOTH goals into the one adventure. The players will soon
learn that bitching is not the solution.

>The GM is the one who has to spend twenty minutes to five hours (or more!)
>outside of the game coming up with the adventure for each game session.
>The GM is usually the one who has spent the money on the majority of the
>game system's books. The GM is the one who has to find new and creative
>ways to challenge the players. On the other hand, the players have to
>spend, let's say two hours total, to create their character. Then they
>have to show up, game, and leave until next week. The GM has more invested
>in the game - time-wise and money-wise. The GM should damn well get some
>enjoyment out of it.

Oh well, I suppose I have a different group. ALL my players contribute to
the game. They all go home and spend time planning, thinking and developing.
They all (on there own accord) go home and write down an explanation as to
what they have done over the non gaming period. AND most importantly we play
five or so other RPG's with a different person GM'ing each one so we
understand how much of work goes into GM'ing.

>So next time you see your GM, thank him for his hard work. Shower the GM
>with love, affection, and yes, money. Multiples of ten preferred, cash
>only please.

That is the WHOLE point ... I am the GM. If my players want to bitch that is
fine, that is up to them. Because my players are bitching or wasting time I
do not say to them "OK this is pathetic hurry up". I let them roleplay, if
this includes bitching c'est la vie. At the end of one bitch session they
soon realise that they have not done anything constructive.

Gav


"In crises the most daring email: lewis@**.edu.au
course is often the safest" tel: +61 9 239 5525
fax: +61 9 239 5544
Henry A. Kissinger Gavin Lewis
The University of Notre Dame - Aust.
Message no. 25
From: Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:01:10 +0800
>Over the past few years there have been lots of games trying to get rid of
>that idea -- calling NPCs "gamemaster characters," the GM
"storyteller,"
>and so on. Does anyone think it's working?

i find that in all the games I play the one game that really gets this
feeling accross is Vampire. Simply because the game mechanics are really
secondary, the "GM" has to be a storyteller to create atmosophere etc etc.

>out to make the game enjoyable for the GM as well. If they don't, quit for
>a while. Let one of the other players be GM for a few sessions, see if
>he/she likes it when the rest of the group is making his/her life
>miserable...

Agreed, think of solutions to the problems....

>Don't forget food and drink... Instead of living off what the GM (who
>doesn't want to bring a meter-high pile of books over to someone else's
>house) has in the way of food, the players can bring some too.

A rule we have is nice and simple. The person whose house is being supplied
to play in does not bring food or drinks.

>(This rant would have been much more useful to me personally if any of my
>players had access to this list... :)

Slip a hard copy into their character sheets.... ;)

Gav


"In crises the most daring email: lewis@**.edu.au
course is often the safest" tel: +61 9 239 5525
fax: +61 9 239 5544
Henry A. Kissinger Gavin Lewis
The University of Notre Dame - Aust.
Message no. 26
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 02:01:12 -0500
Well... I had a problem with my players for a while... It was a matter of
having several players with over developed personalities that were a pain
(My guy's been screwed over by Renraku, orks, and Indians... I won't deal
with any of them), and several players detwermined to be munchkins... When
half your team goes on 4d6 +15 initiative, and the other half moves on 1d6
+4, it's hard to keep combat even... Either the slow guys get killed off
cause I have to make the bad guys faster, or the fast guys do all teh work,
and the slow guys sit their bored ...

I found an article thru Paolo Marcucci's web page done by Blackjack
(Blackjack's Corner on his page) called "For the Good of teh Group". It
talks about how to deal with groups like this...

I printed it out, told my guys to make new characters, and I made them all
sit down and make the characters together, all designed to work together...
If someone wanted their char to be an ork, I didn't want any ork haters in
teh group.

Secondly, to get them all to work together better, I set them up to work
for someone, based off Michael Stackpole's Raven Character in his WOlf and
Kid Stealth stories. I let them set up whatever backgrounds that they
wanted, up to one year before the game started. Then I had Raven rescue
them from some nasty biz that would have otherwise killed them, so they
owed him big.

This worked out very well, considering I stressed the fact that if they
didn't play nice, i wouldn't hesitate to kill the character, and thus the
player, out of my game... I was fed up with bickering and stuff.

Also, to avoid the speed problem, I was upfront with them early on... they
had access to anything they wanted and could afford for char creation, but
A) they had to have a good explanation for why they had it, and B) anything
that they had, the bad guys would have (ie, pantehr assault cannons, wired
reflexes 3, etc.)

I suggest you print this out, and make all your players sit down and read
this. then have them talk about what sort of game they want to play (To
help give you and them an idea of what they want to do), and waht sort of
charactersthey want to play... make sure they know that if they can't play
nice together, you have people to replace them...

Hope this helps a little...

Bull
--
Bull-the-cuddley-Kojack-imitating-Star-Wars-lovin'-ork-decker

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

Less than 2 weeks till Star Wars!
Message no. 27
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:38:39 -0500
>If you enjoy 'the other ways to occupy your time' more than GM'ing why
>bother GM'ing in the first place. Or if your PC's are p*&%$^# you off that
>much why not call on your next five PC's.
>

Because up until a few months ago I was having fun. Balance was a controlled
aspect of the game. I'd like to salvage this group because I've got a sense
of loyalty to people who gamed with me for a long time. I do like to GM just
not lately. If it's possible, I'm going to try and fix the problem
replacement of the couple of is the last option if I can't fix the problem.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 28
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:47:00 -0500
>You can not tell your players "I dont like the conflict your characters are
>having so scrap them" .... please! In "rl" everyone faces conflicts at
work,
>school and family. It is all part of life and roleplaying to deal with these
>conflicts. Soon the PC's will learn that their goals can not be met unless
>they co operate.


So according to you I just have to take a back seat to a three hour
bitchfest. It would be different if they seemed to learn from it but they don't.

>The whole point is NOT the bitching BUT the characters different views of
>the SRII World. One group wants to earn lots of money and one group wants to
>save the World. If ones campaign has this conflict then one must look at
>ways of combining BOTH goals into the one adventure. The players will soon
>learn that bitching is not the solution.

So I have to bribe the pc with the most money to come along.

>Oh well, I suppose I have a different group. ALL my players contribute to
>the game. They all go home and spend time planning, thinking and developing.
>They all (on there own accord) go home and write down an explanation as to
>what they have done over the non gaming period. AND most importantly we play
>five or so other RPG's with a different person GM'ing each one so we
>understand how much of work goes into GM'ing.


Nice to know. If the other ever get the bug to GM I'll let you know.

>That is the WHOLE point ... I am the GM. If my players want to bitch that is
>fine, that is up to them. Because my players are bitching or wasting time I
>do not say to them "OK this is pathetic hurry up". I let them roleplay, if
>this includes bitching c'est la vie. At the end of one bitch session they
>soon realise that they have not done anything constructive.
>

No. I'm not gonna listen to another session like that. It's not worth the
time or the headache it causes. Just because somebody ego has gotten to
swelled and they they they're more important than the next player who
doesn't give me this problem.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 29
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:29:37 -0800
Faux Pas wrote:

> Can't disagree with you more.
>
> Why should a GM suffer for the sake of four to six others?

I am going to (alone it appears) disagree, he has to suffer because of
his own free will he choose to. He can of course stop GMing, and if
things like this bug him too much than he probly should, at least till
he finds a group of players that suit his style. But demanding that
everyone else change indicates an individual who GMs because he loves
power, not because he enjoys the game.

> What I don't understand is why these characters still run together. Sounds
> as if you've got two separate, competing running teams. In real life, the
> members of clique two would have dumped the members of clique one and
> gotten some new friends.

Agreed.

> It sounds as if the problem is coming from the
> money-grubbers and they're the ones that are instigating the whole
> bitchfest that's replacing your gaming time.

Here I am not so certain, it sounds like both groups are opinionated, so
to say that the group with the opinion you disagree with is wrong is
well... wrong. Demanding payment for services rendered is the nature of
Shadowrun IMO (now payment doesn't have to be money, it's nice to be
able to call in markers). For what it's worth if someone tells me that
their character is a crusader I direct them to a friendly GM who will
run them in a nice safe fantasy world, if they are serious I make sure
they understand the world is very dark, and that they won't even begin
to save it. Those that continue can be very interesting. Frankly I
enjoy making an 'evil' character have a moral dillema far more than a
good character, it's tougher, and the response is far more enjoyable.

> It also sounds as if the trouble isn't just a character/character thing,
> but a player/player conflict.

If it is a player conflict I would wash my hands of them.

Overall I would imagine that if these problem are recent, and you've
been GMing for awhile you may need a break, everybody burns out, if the
little things start getting on your nerves you need to take a break for
your sake and the sake of your players.
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:45:29 +0100
Charles Baker said on 5:29/24 Jan 97...

> I am going to (alone it appears) disagree, he has to suffer because of
> his own free will he choose to. He can of course stop GMing, and if
> things like this bug him too much than he probly should, at least till
> he finds a group of players that suit his style.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, at least where it applies to me
personally. If I decide to stop GMing, it could very well mean I never get
to play anything again (apart from PBEMs)... There aren't many roleplayers
where I live, and worse yet, most of them seem to want to keep their hobby
as secret from the world as possible. Should I tell my players that I
won't GM anymore, things would completely fall apart :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
eMpty TV
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 31
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 21:05:35 -0500
>> Why should a GM suffer for the sake of four to six others?

Two players out of eight.

>I am going to (alone it appears) disagree, he has to suffer because of
>his own free will he choose to.

I choose to have a group fission into two sub-groups. Hmmmm can't seem to
remember that thought crossing my mind.

>He can of course stop GMing, and if
>things like this bug him too much than he probly should, at least till
>he finds a group of players that suit his style. But demanding that
>everyone else change indicates an individual who GMs because he loves
>power, not because he enjoys the game.

I'm demanding a return to balance. I'm trying to tell a story not have
squabbles that last for three hours! And thank you my style has suited this
group of players for six years now! It only been in the last few months shit
like this started happening.

>Here I am not so certain, it sounds like both groups are opinionated, so
>to say that the group with the opinion you disagree with is wrong is
>well... wrong. Demanding payment for services rendered is the nature of
>Shadowrun IMO (now payment doesn't have to be money, it's nice to be
>able to call in markers).

Witin the team thats bleed and nearly died for them? I'll be sure to remind
clique two of that next time click one's twisting in the wind.



> For what it's worth if someone tells me that
>their character is a crusader I direct them to a friendly GM who will
>run them in a nice safe fantasy world, if they are serious I make sure
>they understand the world is very dark, and that they won't even begin
>to save it. Those that continue can be very interesting. Frankly I
>enjoy making an 'evil' character have a moral dillema far more than a
>good character, it's tougher, and the response is far more enjoyable.
>

I didn't set this up as a amoral campaign like the last one.


>If it is a player conflict I would wash my hands of them.

If the problem doesn't get fixed I will.


>Overall I would imagine that if these problem are recent, and you've
>been GMing for awhile you may need a break, everybody burns out, if the
>little things start getting on your nerves you need to take a break for
>your sake and the sake of your players.


I am taking a break for a while as we speak.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that these little rendezvous always
have to be in exotic locales.

I mean just once wouldn't you like to sit down at a Denny's and plan
an assassination over a French Slam Breakfest?

"Deadpool #1"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 32
From: Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:20:49 +0800
>> Why should a GM suffer for the sake of four to six others?
>
>I am going to (alone it appears) disagree, he has to suffer because of
>his own free will he choose to. He can of course stop GMing, and if
>things like this bug him too much than he probly should, at least till
>he finds a group of players that suit his style. But demanding that
>everyone else change indicates an individual who GMs because he loves
>power, not because he enjoys the game.

No you are not alone on that one! :)

>Here I am not so certain, it sounds like both groups are opinionated, so
>to say that the group with the opinion you disagree with is wrong is
>well... wrong. Demanding payment for services rendered is the nature of
>Shadowrun IMO (now payment doesn't have to be money, it's nice to be
>able to call in markers). For what it's worth if someone tells me that

Unfortunately it boils down to the GM's bias. If he/she is a 'crusader' than
his/her world is based around this and the same applies if the GM's bias
lies with money grabbing characters. It could just be part of characters
personalities. After all if you could save a kidnapped dog for 10,000 ¥ or
rid the world of the Universal Brotherhood for nothing, what would you=
choose?

Good luck with all the conflict anyway! :)

Gav
Message no. 33
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:33:22 -0800
NightLife wrote:

> >I am going to (alone it appears) disagree, he has to suffer because of
> >his own free will he choose to.
>
> I choose to have a group fission into two sub-groups. Hmmmm can't seem to
> remember that thought crossing my mind.

You did choose to GM (well I do remeber the times when we had to drag
our Gm kicking and screaming to game sessions, but he shouldn't have put
up with it if he didn't want to), Gurths problems of location don't
apply to most of us.
When you choose to GM you must be willing to except that these things
can happen, more than once I have thought about this possibility and
that is why I set down rather strict guidelines at character generation,
to make sure everybodies characters are compatible.

> >He can of course stop GMing, and if
> >things like this bug him too much than he probly should, at least till
> >he finds a group of players that suit his style. But demanding that
> >everyone else change indicates an individual who GMs because he loves
> >power, not because he enjoys the game.
>
> I'm demanding a return to balance. I'm trying to tell a story not have
> squabbles that last for three hours! And thank you my style has suited this
> group of players for six years now! It only been in the last few months shit
> like this started happening.

I really didn't mean that as an attack, just noting that if a majority
of your players are having a problem you should change or leave, if the
majority goes with you then the minority should change or leave. But as
you said you are trying to tell a story, which means you need players
that want to be told a story. Personally I don't tell stories nor do I
like to be told stories, I like providing a world and letting the
players interact with it, and I like interacting with worlds created by
other people, I would probly not fit in your game, and if the difference
is truly fundamental we shouldn't be playing toghether.

> Witin the team thats bleed and nearly died for them? I'll be sure to remind
> clique two of that next time click one's twisting in the wind.

They obviously did expect payment (like pro bono work, and favors), they
should be more adamant about getting it, and all I was saying was
everybody is gonna expect something, even if it only courtesy.
Message no. 34
From: Faux Pas <thomas@********.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:03:30 -0600
At 09:33 AM 1/28/97 -0800, you wrote:
[bits of telling a story and other bits snipped]:

>> >I am going to (alone it appears) disagree, he has to suffer because of
>> >his own free will he choose to.

>You did choose to GM ...

>When you choose to GM you must be willing to except that these things
>can happen ...

>> >But demanding that
>> >everyone else change indicates an individual who GMs because he loves
>> >power, not because he enjoys the game.

>I really didn't mean that as an attack, just noting that if a majority
>of your players are having a problem you should change or leave, if the
>majority goes with you then the minority should change or leave.

The reason why people gather together to game is to have fun. If one
person in the group isn't having fun, the group should either change so all
the people can have fun or that person should leave. That one person
shouldn't have to suffer in an enviroment he doesn't like, even if there
are six others who are enjoying the game.

In a roleplaying game like Shadowrun, the GM is also a player of the game
(a gamer). To assert that he or she must just sit there in silence, not
enjoying something that he's put time and effort into is mad. What
separates the GM's enjoyment of the game from the players (non-GM gamers)?
The GM isn't just there for the other players.

Sure, as a GM, you must be willing to expect that things like the group
schisming and the game sessions. But are you to sit by and do nothing
about it? It's not the player's game, it's the gamer's game.

To paraphrase you:
Silently suffering as a GM, hating his "job" in the game indicates an
individual who GMs out of a sense of duty, not because he enjoys the game.
Telling everyone that the game has gone out of whack and that it's time to
change indicates an individual who GMs to enjoy the game. Ramrodding the
players through a linear adventure, beating them on the heads with which
way to go and what to do, and not developing the player's characters, now
that's the individual who GMs because he loves power, not because he enjoys
the game.


-Thomas Deeny
telltale.hart.org

"Yes."
-Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny
Message no. 35
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:20:24 -0800
On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Faux Pas wrote:
>
> -Thomas Deeny
> telltale.hart.org
>
> "Yes."
> -Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny
>


Cool. Congrats.

~Tim
Message no. 36
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:52:58 -0700
Tim Cooper wrote:
|
| On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Faux Pas wrote:
| >
| > -Thomas Deeny
| > telltale.hart.org
| >
| > "Yes."
| > -Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny
|
| Cool. Congrats.

Ditto.

Which brings up a fun adventure idea.

The shadowrunners are hired by the Bride to make sure that
the Groom gets to the wedding on time (at their previous
wedding he got caught in a traffic jam, was detoured into a
gang fight, and was sent to the hospital with minor
injuries, missing the wedding). The Groom is accident
prone.

So, on the day of the wedding the runners start babysitting
the Groom at dawn (the wedding is that evening). Have fun
with whatever crazy disasters you can think of (watch some
Jackie Chan and Pink Panther movies for ideas).

Anyhow, it turns out the Grooms paternal line (his
great-great-grandfather) was cursed by some gypsy, who
coincidentaly used some earthdawn artifact. The curse, not
having the available magic to activate, has followed each
eldest son, until it becomes active on the Groom. The
curse could go something like.. the Grandfather fell in
love with the Gypsy's daughter, but spurned her and agreed
to an arranged marriage with someone within his social
class.. the Gypsy cursed him to never be married to anyone
but her daughter. Likewise, the curse has kept track of
the Gypsy's maternal line and through freak chance her
great-great-great grandaughter is living in the same city
as the Groom.. and she has the artifact that was used to
bring about the curse.. also the curse causes her to fall
in love with the Groom so she won't give up the artifact
easily.

Sound fun? :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 37
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: GMing problems
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:23:07 +1000
Heeeeeeey Bull!

I don't babble! I don't babble! I do not babble!
I DO NOT BABBLE! I REALLY DO NOT BABBLE!
I SOMETIMES MAY WRITE BEFORE THINKING,
BUT I DO NOT BABBLE, GOD DAMN IT!

:)
BulletSHower


P.S.
I really should quit now, before I start babbling ;))
______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 38
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:36:27 +0100
Charles Baker said on 9:33/28 Jan 97...

> Gurths problems of location don't apply to most of us.

That's why I envy all of you who have to say "Sorry, we have enough
players already" to people who want to play... (For some reason I seem to
always pick hobbies that are very hard to practice here :( )

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Past Perfect Tense
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:36:27 +0100
David Buehrer said on 14:52/28 Jan 97...

> | > "Yes."
> | > -Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny
> |
> | Cool. Congrats.
>
> Ditto.
>
> Which brings up a fun adventure idea.
[snip idea]
> Sound fun? :)

Are you trying to warn Thomas of something? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Past Perfect Tense
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 40
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:30:06 -0500
>> Gurths problems of location don't apply to most of us.
>
>That's why I envy all of you who have to say "Sorry, we have enough
>players already" to people who want to play... (For some reason I seem to
>always pick hobbies that are very hard to practice here :( )

I'm on your side. I've got 5 players by skimming off of the local high
school....if I try to get more, I'll start getting nasty types.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 41
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 22:23:29 +0000
On 29 Jan 97 at 13:36, Gurth wrote:
[snip]
> That's why I envy all of you who have to say "Sorry, we have enough
> players already" to people who want to play... (For some reason I seem to
> always pick hobbies that are very hard to practice here :( )
How far from the Netherland/German border are you living? I am sure I
knew it once, but... *sigh* You have a car? What about a monthly
session? (You may even play a few sessions, I promise :-)



Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 42
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:16:07 -0700
Gurth wrote:
|
| David Buehrer said on 14:52/28 Jan 97...
|
| > | > "Yes."
| > | > -Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny
| > |
| > | Cool. Congrats.
| >
| > Ditto.
| >
| > Which brings up a fun adventure idea.
| [snip idea]
| > Sound fun? :)
|
| Are you trying to warn Thomas of something? :)

Naw, just trying to make lite of the occasion :)

-David-who's-also-getting-hitched-this-year(September 1997)

BTW, if anyone has any good advice for putting together a moderate
wedding, please email me (privately).
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 43
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 02:19:49 +0100
On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:52:58 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:

>Sound fun? :)
>
>-David

Yeah.
Congratulations to both of you (But a little more to Thomas Deeny).

-- Arno
Message no. 44
From: Greg <ghacke@******.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:32:12 -0500
On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> >> Gurths problems of location don't apply to most of us.
> >
> >That's why I envy all of you who have to say "Sorry, we have enough
> >players already" to people who want to play... (For some reason I seem to
> >always pick hobbies that are very hard to practice here :( )
>
> I'm on your side. I've got 5 players by skimming off of the local high
> school....if I try to get more, I'll start getting nasty types.
>
> -=SwiftOne=-
>

Personally, I stick to the players I have. I've only got 5, but they're
excellent roleplayers and we rarely stagnate. When we do, we stop by the
"Weekly Game Sessions" at OSU and "vent our frustrations" on
unsuspecting
others. :-P

-> Viper

*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
| Sir, I admit to your general rule, | Gregory C. Hacke |
| That every poet is a fool. | hacke.2@***.edu |
| | ghacke@******.edu |
| But you, yourself go to show it, | |
| Not every fool is a Poet. | Check out my web pages at this url: |
| - S.T. Coleridge | http://www.mville.edu/~ghacke/ |
*+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
Message no. 45
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:04:22 -0500
>> I'm on your side. I've got 5 players by skimming off of the local high
>> school....if I try to get more, I'll start getting nasty types.
>Personally, I stick to the players I have. I've only got 5, but they're
>excellent roleplayers and we rarely stagnate. When we do, we stop by the
>"Weekly Game Sessions" at OSU and "vent our frustrations" on
unsuspecting
>others. :-P

True, I'm happy. But if my players got so far out-of-line that it was no
longer fun, I couldn't just say "see ya" without shooting myself in the foot.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 46
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:27:11 EST
On Fri, 31 Jan 1997 22:04:22 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>> I'm on your side. I've got 5 players by skimming off of the local
>high
>>> school....if I try to get more, I'll start getting nasty types.
>>Personally, I stick to the players I have. I've only got 5, but
>they're
>>excellent roleplayers and we rarely stagnate. When we do, we stop by
>the
>>"Weekly Game Sessions" at OSU and "vent our frustrations" on
>unsuspecting
>>others. :-P
>
>True, I'm happy. But if my players got so far out-of-line that it was
>no
>longer fun, I couldn't just say "see ya" without shooting myself in
>the foot.
>
>-=SwiftOne=-
>
I don't know. I've got all of five (not a bad number at all) regular
players, mayber 10 or 12 on special occasions (summer camp makes everyone
desperate for something to do at 11:00 at night, though why we can never
get started before that beats the shtuff out of me). However, last time
we played, one of the guys had to go do something. This immediately
distracted the rest of the group, who began to chatter among themselves.
I sat down to wait until they were done , or the other player returned,
hopefully bringing a little order back to the game (yeah, right:). One
player (who will remain nameless) took it upon himself to "ask" (read:
bothered me and bitched about) why we hadn't started yet-then he wouldn't
let me take care of it my own way. After I'd put up with his bitch for
about 5-10 minutes, I got fed up and walked outside. I simply put up my
stuff and walked out. Quite possibly the best thing I've done in a while.
It kept me from beating the crap out of him, and he wound up GMing a game
in the process. Now he understands a little bit of why not just everyone
wants to GM. He (I think) maybe understands a bit of why I got mad at the
badgering. Unfortunately, he and another guy are both interested in GMing
games now:) I don't mind if they want to run a game or two every so often
(it gives me a chance to play), but I'm hoping to run a session of
downtime next time (when that will be, I don't know). Well, end of my
story:)

Canthros
--
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 47
From: Elfman & Danita <elf-dani@******.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 00:37:45 -0700
On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Faux Pas wrote:
>
> -Thomas Deeny
> telltale.hart.org
>
> "Yes."
> -Tamara [soon-to-be] Deeny
>
Woo Hoo, congrats man, we invited???

Sgt Pepper

Visit Elfman's World at http://www.spots.ab.ca/~elf-dani
or Danitaville at http://www.spots.ab.ca/~elf-dani/index.html
Message no. 48
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:25:53 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 22:23/29 Jan 97...

> How far from the Netherland/German border are you living? I am sure I
> knew it once, but... *sigh*

In a straight line, about 185 km... (on one of those little islands in the
south-west -- now watch everybody dive for the nearest atlas :)

> You have a car?

Not even a license. My main mode of transport is a bicycle :)

> What about a monthly session? (You may even play a few sessions, I
> promise :-)

Thanks for the offer, but I'm afraid this just isn't doable :(

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Easy to swallow if you can hold down a wad of manic raving by a
possessed psychotic one pill short of a medicated load.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 49
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 19:51:46 -0700
Gurth wrote:
|
| Sascha Pabst said on 22:23/29 Jan 97...
|
| > How far from the Netherland/German border are you living? I am sure I
| > knew it once, but... *sigh*
|
| In a straight line, about 185 km... (on one of those little islands in the
| south-west -- now watch everybody dive for the nearest atlas :)

(Oh, all right) Vlissingen? :)

| > You have a car?
|
| Not even a license. My main mode of transport is a bicycle :)

How about taking a bus or train (or combination)? It
sounds like Sascha runs a pretty killer game of SR. Try
man, Try! :)

| Easy to swallow if you can hold down a wad of manic raving by a
| possessed psychotic one pill short of a medicated load.

LOL Where is that from?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 50
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:26:18 +0100
David Buehrer said on 19:51/ 1 Feb 97...

> | In a straight line, about 185 km... (on one of those little islands in the
> | south-west -- now watch everybody dive for the nearest atlas :)
>
> (Oh, all right) Vlissingen? :)

*grin* That's about 10 km away -- unless you have an accurate atlas, it
won't be in it, but try Zoutelande, a little to the north-west of
Vlissingen :)

> How about taking a bus or train (or combination)? It sounds like Sascha
> runs a pretty killer game of SR. Try man, Try! :)

Do you know what it costs to take a train to Germany?

> | Easy to swallow if you can hold down a wad of manic raving by a
> | possessed psychotic one pill short of a medicated load.
>
> LOL Where is that from?

A "Buy Or Die" leaflet from an Epitaph CD. It's about the CD "Pablum"
by a band called Clawhammer. I have no idea how they sound (though I can
make a guess), but I liked the text :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My hypocrisy only goes so far.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 51
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:18:24 +0100
On Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:25:53 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>> What about a monthly session? (You may even play a few sessions, I
>> promise :-)
>
>Thanks for the offer, but I'm afraid this just isn't doable :(
>
There I'm not so sure ... all we Europeans (or at least
Middle-eouropeans) could visit you ;)

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
(And send me a note when you notice that
the reply-to-address points to the list!)
*********************************************************************
Message no. 52
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 12:34:03 +0100
Arno R. Lehmann said on 1:18/ 4 Feb 97...

> >Thanks for the offer, but I'm afraid this just isn't doable :(
> >
> There I'm not so sure ... all we Europeans (or at least
> Middle-eouropeans) could visit you ;)

Like I told Sascha, if you (any of you) ever happen to be in the
neighborhood, you're welcome to stop by...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Too many hangers in the closet.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 53
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:02:45 -0500
At 12:34 PM 2/5/97 +0100, Gurth babbled:
>> There I'm not so sure ... all we Europeans (or at least
>> Middle-eouropeans) could visit you ;)
>
>Like I told Sascha, if you (any of you) ever happen to be in the
>neighborhood, you're welcome to stop by...
>
Ok, everyone...

Party at Gurth's house This Saturday... Everyone on the list, be there! :)

Gurth, hope you're ready for about 30 or 40 houseguests this weekend...:)

Bull
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 54
From: Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:22:21 +0000
> >> There I'm not so sure ... all we Europeans (or at least
> >> Middle-eouropeans) could visit you ;)
> >
> >Like I told Sascha, if you (any of you) ever happen to be in the
> >neighborhood, you're welcome to stop by...
> >
> Ok, everyone...
>
> Party at Gurth's house This Saturday... Everyone on the list, be there! :)
>
> Gurth, hope you're ready for about 30 or 40 houseguests this weekend...:)

And have ready a nice SR-adventure to play...:-)

Bye Mike
Message no. 55
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: GMing problems.
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:27:58 +0100
Bull said on 7:02/ 5 Feb 97...

> Ok, everyone...
>
> Party at Gurth's house This Saturday... Everyone on the list, be there! :)

Great! Then I can finally see how many of you fit underneath the stairs!
:)

> Gurth, hope you're ready for about 30 or 40 houseguests this weekend...:)

Well, my parents are gone for the weekend, so...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Some bald fanatics try to make me buy their books.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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