Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Jeremy DeVore jmortir@*****.net
Subject: Gods?
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:28:38 -0500
Have any of you out there ever played the game Torg? It was the first
serious RPG I ever had, and to be honest I have missed it. But my players
weren't particularly charged about the combat system it used. It's been
awhile since those days, we've graduated to the Storyteller system, and now
I am trying to get them interested in Shadowrun. Well I have had a few ideas
running around in my head for sometime, and I like to use alternative
campaign settings (as you all should have seen with my Shadowrun of the
Living Dead posts). Well I wanted to do so many things and have the players
use the same characters (or the same independent troubleshooting agency that
hires out to Corps). So something got me to thinking about gods... and the
idea of adapting some Torg ideas became a complex solution to my problems. I
used to love to have characters jump into new worlds that they had no idea
what it was like. I could just let my imagination run wild... flat worlds...
low tech worlds... worlds where the sun went through the planet... all sorts
of things... the laws of physics were not always the same... I missed that
free reign on my imagination. Guess what? I am about to start some stuff up.

I am going to break this project up into several sections, so that I do not
get off into something that I really don't need to (my mind wanders a
bit...). But these are the sections I am going to work on:

1.) Planes: This would discuss the nature of Planes, how different Planes
connect, The different Axioms of Planes (i.e. the Tech, Magic, and Other
Levels of the Plane), and how Planular Constants work (the miscellaneous
laws that govern the Plane).

2.) What gods are: This would go on to say exactly where gods fall in the
scheme of the Universe.

3.) Divine History: Pretty much explains where they have been and what's
going on with them.

4.) Godly Abilities: What gods can do.

5.) Gods as Characters: Introducing gods as characters for players to run.

As you can see I am going to a little busy. Some of the ideas I think I have
aired out here before, but I am going to try to polish things a little bit
and pray it don't get erased like past projects.

Later

J

ICQ# 27381095
http://www.shreve.net/~jmortir/AWINS

"Tis a nobler thing I... Awww screw it! BYE!"
Message no. 2
From: Ojaste,James [NCR] James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA
Subject: Gods?
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:59:22 -0400
Jeremy DeVore [mailto:jmortir@*****.net]
> Have any of you out there ever played the game Torg? It was the first

Never played it, but I know people who have.

> serious RPG I ever had, and to be honest I have missed it.
> But my players
> weren't particularly charged about the combat system it used.
> It's been
> awhile since those days, we've graduated to the Storyteller
> system, and now

"Graduated to the Storyteller system", huh? I never thought I'd hear
*those* words... ;-)

[big snip]

In short, I think what you're looking for is the Amber DRPG (Diceless
RPG). I'll tackle this point by point.

> 1.) Planes: This would discuss the nature of Planes, how
> different Planes
> connect, The different Axioms of Planes (i.e. the Tech,
> Magic, and Other
> Levels of the Plane), and how Planular Constants work (the
> miscellaneous
> laws that govern the Plane).

In the Amber multiverse there are essentially two poles. At one end
is order and at the other is chaos. In between is either every possible
universe, or maybe just those that somebody has actually conceived of.
This solves some of the interconnectedness stuff naturally, and has
strong influences on the magic and tech stuff.

> 2.) What gods are: This would go on to say exactly where gods
> fall in the
> scheme of the Universe.

You mean the Amberites, right? ;-)
Seeing as they can travel between shadows (a "shadow" is an individual
universe in the multiverse) at will, manipulate shadow to their desires
etc, they seem to fit. Several are detailed complete with personalities
and abilities. Of course you can have regular gods too, but those tend
to be restricted to a particular shadow...

> 3.) Divine History: Pretty much explains where they have been
> and what's
> going on with them.

Heh. While I found Roger Zelazny's writing (he wrote 10 books on Amber
which inspired the RPG) to be incredibly tedious, there's a lot of
history already there (which is summarized quite nicely in the back of
the RPG).

> 4.) Godly Abilities: What gods can do.

Again, this is more or less the whole point of the RPG.

> 5.) Gods as Characters: Introducing gods as characters for
> players to run.

Yup. In Amber, the players are generally expected to play young
Amberites - so essentially they're gods, but gods whose parents can
kick their butts if they get too far out of line.

It can be great fun with the right GM...

James Ojaste
Message no. 3
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Gods?
Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:35:57 -0400
> But these are the sections I am going to work on:
>
> 1.) Planes:
> 2.) What gods are:
> 3.) Divine History:
> 4.) Godly Abilities:
> 5.) Gods as Characters:

When doing anything godly, do yourself a favor and beg, borrow or steal a
copy of The Primal Order. This is the best system for integrating gods into
any gaming system that I've ever seen. (A year or two ago, I posted Primal
Order stats treating Shadowrun's Great Dragons and Immortal Elves as
godlings.)

It was produced by Wizards of the Coast, and is therefore no longer
produced. It was written by Peter Adkison and the ISBN is 428180001.

Good luck.

Wordman
Message no. 4
From: Jeremy DeVore jmortir@******.net
Subject: Gods?
Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 01:58:23 -0500
>When doing anything godly, do yourself a favor and beg, borrow or steal a
copy of The Primal Order. This is the best system >for integrating gods
into any gaming system that I've ever seen. (A year or two ago, I posted
Primal Order stats treating >Shadowrun's Great Dragons and Immortal Elves
as godlings.)

>It was produced by Wizards of the Coast, and is therefore no longer
produced. It was written by Peter Adkison and the ISBN >is 428180001.

>Good luck.

>Wordman

I have had a copy of Primal Order since about '92 or '93, back before Magic
the Gathering was thought of. Back when I had high hopes for Wizards of the
Coast. When I read that they cut their entire RPG department so that they
could concentrate on Magic it broke my heart. And I am using Primal Order
as a base but it is too powerful for what I have in mind. One of the
characters is going to end up a god. So I am gutting Primal Order scrapping
it together with some stuff from Torg, and combine it all together with SR
rules. Which I am doing, but stuff keeps coming up in Real Life and it
keeps me from posting it as of yet. Hopefully I'll get to work on it soon.

Later

J

ICQ# 27381095
http://www.shreve.net/~jmortir/AWINS

"Tis a nobler thing I... Awww screw it! BYE!"
Message no. 5
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: Gods?
Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 17:44:13 -0500
J wrote:
>I have had a copy of Primal Order since about '92 or '93, back before Magic
>the Gathering was thought of. Back when I had high hopes for Wizards of the
>Coast. When I read that they cut their entire RPG department so that they
>could concentrate on Magic it broke my heart. And I am using Primal Order
>as a base but it is too powerful for what I have in mind. One of the
>characters is going to end up a god. So I am gutting Primal Order scrapping
>it together with some stuff from Torg, and combine it all together with SR
>rules.

Check out Inomine. Keep the basic concepts, politics, and powers, and change
the names and source (from biblical angels and demons to mythic gods) and it
might work. At the very least it will probably give you some good ideas :)

-Graht
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
ShadowRN GridSec
The ShadowRN FAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/
Geek Code: GCS d-( ) s++:->+ a@ C++>$ US P L >++ E? W++>+++ !N o-- K-
w+ o? M- VMS? PS+(++) PE+(++) Y+ !PGP t+(++) 5+(++) X++(+++) R+>$ tv+b++ DI++++
D+(++) G e+>+++ h--->---- r+++ y+++
http://home.att.net/~Graht
Message no. 6
From: Barbie LeVile barbie@********.de
Subject: Gods?
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:06:10 +0200
Wordman wrote:
>

>
> When doing anything godly, do yourself a favor and beg, borrow or steal a
> copy of The Primal Order. This is the best system for integrating gods into
> any gaming system that I've ever seen. (A year or two ago, I posted Primal
> Order stats treating Shadowrun's Great Dragons and Immortal Elves as
> godlings.)
>
hmmm, I remember that i onced tried to convert just the stats of Barb
with the rules printed in Primal Order, it didn`t worked at all...

--
Barbie

=-=-=-=SR4 will lead the way=-=-=- -=-=-=-Feel the power-=-=-=-
Message no. 7
From: rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Subject: Gods?
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:06:04 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.com>
>When doing anything godly, do yourself a favor and beg, borrow or steal a
>copy of The Primal Order. This is the best system for integrating gods into
>any gaming system that I've ever seen. (A year or two ago, I posted Primal
>Order stats treating Shadowrun's Great Dragons and Immortal Elves as
>godlings.)
>
>It was produced by Wizards of the Coast, and is therefore no longer

Those still available somewhere, Word?

Thanx.

Argent
Message no. 8
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Gods?
Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:42:39 -0400
> Those still available somewhere, Word?

Probably, but here they are again anyway. When I first posted these, I got
some comments that more of Dunkie's Primal should be tied up in his lair(s).
I agree with this, but I have not altered the post to take this into
account, since the stats are fairly meaningless anyway; the idea is what
matters.

When originally posted, the title of this was:

Stats for Ehran and Harlequin

>>>>>>>

I know. In _Harlequin_, FASA says that Ehran and Harlequin are far too
powerful to be given Shadowrun statistics. I agree. That's why these
statistic use the Primal Order system from Wizards of the Coast.

My guess is that the majority of readers of the previous paragraph thought
one of three things:
1) "Wow!" (or some other stunned expression)
2) "What the hell are you thinking?" (or other disparaging remark)
or 3) "What is the Primal Order?"

The Primal Order (ISBN: 1-880992-00-0) is an extremely well thought out
system for dealing with gods, written by Peter Adkinson. These stats put
Ehran and Harlequin on the very low end of the Primal Order power scale,
which makes them much more powerful than alluded to in _Harlequin_.

This post assumes you are familiar with the Primal Order, but briefly put,
the definition of a divine being is one who can control Primal Energy.
Primal energy shields can stop any non-primal attack and primal attacks can
cut through any non-primal shields. Primal can be used to do nearly
anything. The Primal Order details much more, but that is the very limited
essence of it.

I had thought that doing these stats would be the fun part, but in
actuality, the stats are sort of meaningless. Playing with the ideas exposed
by the mere fact of Ehran and Harlequin controlling primal are much more
exciting. While I (as always) like any comments, the ones I'm most
interested in are those which address the ramifications of Primal entities
in Shadowrun. First I list the stats, then I make some comments on this
topic.

Let me also say that I do not use these rules in my own campaign. I'm not
sure I recommend you do either. Treat it as a mental exercise.

The approach I have taken for these stats is that of "standard" mortals who
can manipulate primal energy. That is, those described in these stats do not
possess superhuman attributes or abilities beyond the normal Shadowrun
system. Though they are high on the power scale for Shadowrun, it is use of
primal that places them outside standard runner's power level. You may want
to change that.

I also tried to limit the primal flux available to these two elves such that
they would have to be very smart about using it. I wanted there to be enough
that either of them could blast any mortal off the planet, but not so much
that they could avoid worrying about running out of it if they did so
repeatedly. Again, your desires will likely vary.

Lastly, note that Ehran's evolutionary losses exactly match Harlequin's
captured base. If the events in _Harlequin_ have not yet transpired in your
campaign, eliminate these two entries.

Remember that these stats are in Primal Order terms, not Shadowrun. For
reference, maximum normal human attributes are rated at 20.

STATISTICS

Ehran the Scribe (godling)
Strength: 15
Health: 14
Reaction: 20
Intelligence: 20
Destiny: 32
Presence: 25
Willpower: 20

Combat
Defense Strength: 0
Unarmed: Veteran
Melee weapons: Legendary 1
Missile weapons: Professional
Aptitude
Magical: Legendary 2
Mentalic: Legendary 2 (or none, depending on how you look at it)

Primal Base: 192
Primal Flux: 29

Primal Base Calculations
No solely controlled planes 0
Rank bonuses through godling 100
Creation of artifacts 0
Creation of servitors 0
Ascensions 0
Sphere of influence cost 0
Sphere of influence abilities cost 0
Evolutionary gains 112
Evolutionary losses -20
Total Primal Base 192

Primal Flux Calculations
Ten percent of base (192/10) 19
Consecrated ground (0x2) 0
Sanctuaries (0x5) 0
Temples (0x10) 0
Cathedrals (0x25) 0
Holding of rival consecrated ground (0x1) 0
Holding of rival sanctuaries (0x2) 0
Holding of rival temples (0x5) 0
Holding of rival cathedrals (0x12) 0
Planes (0x1000) 0
Worshipers by plane (100; square root) 10
Captured primal base 0
Total Primal Flux 29


Harlequin (godling)
Strength: 17
Health: 17
Reaction: 20
Intelligence: 19
Destiny: 32
Presence: 25
Willpower: 20

Combat
Defense Strength: 0
Unarmed: Professional
Melee weapons: Legendary 1
Missile weapons: Legendary
Aptitude
Magical: Legendary 2
Mentalic: Legendary 2 (or none, depending on how you look at it)

Primal Base: 250
Primal Flux: 26

Primal Base Calculations
No solely controlled planes 0
Rank bonuses through godling 100
Creation of artifacts 0
Creation of servitors 0
Ascensions 0
Sphere of influence cost 0
Sphere of influence abilities cost 0
Evolutionary gains 150
Evolutionary losses 0
Total Primal Base 250

Primal Flux Calculations
Ten percent of base (250/10) 25
Consecrated ground (0x2) 0
Sanctuaries (0x5) 0
Temples (0x10) 0
Cathedrals (0x25) 0
Holding of rival consecrated ground (0x1) 0
Holding of rival sanctuaries (0x2) 0
Holding of rival temples (0x5) 0
Holding of rival cathedrals (0x12) 0
Planes (0x1000) 0
Worshipers by plane (0) 0
Captured primal base (20x5%) 1
Total Primal Flux 26


Dunkelzahn (godling)
Strength: 65
Health: 55
Reaction: 27
Intelligence: 27
Destiny: 18
Presence: 27
Willpower: 35

Combat
Defense Strength: 24
Unarmed: Legendary 2
Melee weapons: Amateur
Missile weapons: Amateur
Aptitude
Magical: Legendary 2
Mentalic: Legendary 2 (or none, depending on how you look at it)

Primal Base: 568
Primal Flux: 56

Primal Base Calculations
No solely controlled planes 0
Rank bonuses through godling 100
Creation of artifacts 0
Creation of servitors 0
Ascensions 0
Sphere of influence cost 0
Sphere of influence abilities cost 0
Evolutionary gains 532
Evolutionary losses -64
Total Primal Base 568

Primal Flux Calculations
Ten percent of base (568/10) 56
Consecrated ground (0x2) 0
Sanctuaries (0x5) 0
Temples (0x10) 0
Cathedrals (0x25) 0
Holding of rival consecrated ground (0x1) 0
Holding of rival sanctuaries (0x2) 0
Holding of rival temples (0x5) 0
Holding of rival cathedrals (0x12) 0
Planes (0x1000) 0
Worshipers by plane (0) 0
Captured primal base (0x5%) 0
Total Primal Flux 56

Those are the stats. Season to taste.

RAMIFICATIONS

Declaring immortal elves and great dragons as primal using beings opens some
interesting and far-reaching questions for the Shadowrun universe. Such as:
1) How did they come to control primal?
2) How does their being primal users effect their motives and goals?
3) Are all of them primal, or just some?
4) Are the Horrors primally-based and/or -enhanced? By whom?

How the first of these questions is answered influences the rest. There are
two basic possibilities I can think of for how they gained primal use.

The first is that they were ascended. This implies the existence of more
powerful beings which did the ascending. In this case, the nature of these
beings comes into question. There are infinite possibilities in this case,
which are beyond the reach of this post. I would love to hear comments on
this topic.

The next other basic possibility is that the elves and/or dragons uncovered
how to use primal by themselves. There are many ways this could go, but if
you accept that Earthdawn and Shadowrun are the same world (and you'd be a
fool not to), I could see that the Fourth Age elves, desperate to find a
weapon to fight off the Horrors uncovered the basis of primal energy.
(Perhaps that is what made the Ritual of Thorns possible.)

I like this possibility for a couple of reasons. First, it does not require
(but could include) more powerful deities. Second, it allows a reasonable
assumption that the elves don't understand primal all that well, and many of
its secrets have not yet been uncovered by them. This allows them to be a
bit less powerful, and creates interesting social situations between primal
entities (e.g. Who shares secrets with whom? Who is funding primal research?
Etc.). Third, primal use can become a point of knowledge, not genetics. I
feel this could allow some pretty cool Shadowrun campaigns.

As far as motivations go, a lot depends how you answer the first question.
For example, I gave Ehran a hundred worshippers. These are people who are
fanatical about the ideas expressed in _Mankind_Revealed_. In the case of
Ehran being ascended, he would know all about the primal advantages of
having worshippers, in which case the book might have been the first step
towards defining a Sphere of Influence (Cheesy Philosophy, maybe). If the
elves discovered primal by themselves, it may be that Ehran doesn't even
know he has worshippers and is looking for reasons as to why he suddenly has
more Flux.

I'd prefer to hear everyone else's opinions on these and the other questions
then keep venting on this topic.

Enjoy,
Wordman

"How do gods die? And when they do, what becomes of them then?"
- Clive Barker, preface of _The_Sandman_Book_of_Dreams_

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Gods?, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!