Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Jan-bart van Beek <flake@***.NL>
Subject: Gods and the SR Universe
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:54:00 +0200
And now a word from your own personal occult informant.

The problem here lies in the definition of the word god.

Christianity tends to have some sort of "good guy" god, jews and moslims
tend to have practically the same image and definition of God as the
christians. This type of god is one type of god, the 'One' God.
This type of god is not really interesting for use in the SR Universe, so
we're going to skip it and look at what the majority of religions look like.

The polygod belief system.

Apart from the big three, most religions tend to have multiple gods. Just
name 'em, the greeks had their gods, the romans had pretty much the same.
Hindoeisme has shive and kali and the whole bunch (Actually I think they
have nearly 30 million gods.) The Vikings had their pantheon with Thor
and What's-his-name. Then theirs Voodoo with their loa's.

Another thing that set's these systems apart from the big three is that
the gods of polygod systems actually have human characters, in
contradiction to the Christian God, who seems void of any human emotions
apart from being a good guy. Sure he might get angry at some poor fellow
or some angel in one of the biblical tales, but he's not part of some big
extraplanar Soap like the gods of the polygod systems. Simply because
he's alone, and lone guys don't make good stories.

Systems like the greek pantheon are filled with god infighting and
intrige, with gods trying to kill each other (quite hard to do) or going
after each others wife. In the stories their characters are rounded out,
so people not only tend to worship what ever a god represent but also can
identify with them, cause they have in a way human lives.

And now the SR part.

VooDoo (Or better, VouDoun) is described in the Neo's guide to magic.
which makes it the first truely religious system in SR. Who ever said
that totems are not gods is probably right. The indians don't call 'em
gods and we don't either, so most probably they are not gods. They are
Totems, and they have personalities, but they don't have the stories that
tend to be associated with other polygod systems.
VooDoo does have those. They have the Loa's.

So what are Loa's. In the system they take about the same role as totems.
With this difference you can have more then one of them as your
companion. Shamanism tends to be a one Totem thing. You "worship" one,
the one who has chosen you, and therefore you and he are the same.
But in Voodoo you can worship multiple gods, you can even recieve the aid
of multiple gods ( you have to be initiated to do so though) and you have
a direct relationship with him. Meaning you can call him in, talk to him
or have him help you and actually interact with him in a physical way.

But what are they really. It's said they are free spirits from the
metaplane called Guinee, just as the viking gods would be free spirits
from walhalla, same for Olympus, Nirvana and all the other "heavens".

So heaven is a Metaplane and the gods are Free spirits.

Now something about Angels and Demons.

Common occult theorie states that angels and demons are in fact spirits in
manifestations that really don't differ so much. There's no hard line
between them, it's more a matter of who calls on their help. The Roman
church just tended to call every thing in their favor Angels and
everything that the opposition called up Demons. As all magic was seen as
the work of the devil bu the church, all spirits summoned by magic was
automatically a demon. If one came from prayer it was ofcourse an Angel.

There's no real distinction between them, but there is an distinction
between the ones who name them.


Hope to haven't insulted any religious fanatics out there. But then again
if you are a relious fanatic, I guess you desperatly need to be insulted. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------
| Beware of what you ask for you may recieve it |
--------------------------------------------------------------

**** The Cornflake Killer Strikes again ****
Message no. 2
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gods and the SR Universe
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:14:35 -0400
> And now a word from your own personal occult informant.

Very considerate of you, chummer, but there's more than one "occult
informant" on this list... Just watching this thread, I count five or six.


> [. . .]
> This type of god is not really interesting for use in the SR Universe, so
> we're going to skip it and look at what the majority of religions look like.
>
> The polygod belief system.

You may want to watch the way you say that. I'm Pagan and I understand
(pretty much) what you're TRYING to say, but you're on thin ice deciding
what is "really interesting." The majority of the POPULATION in the world
is monotheistic (Christian, Muslim) or semitheistic (Buddhist), not
polytheistic. Much of your message strays pretty much off-topic from
Shadowrun, and you should be aware that what you're describing is largely
personal opinion, not logical exhortation.



> And now the SR part.

> [ . . . ] Who ever said
> that totems are not gods is probably right. The indians don't call 'em
> gods and we don't either, so most probably they are not gods. They are
> Totems, and they have personalities, but they don't have the stories that
> tend to be associated with other polygod systems.

You obviously are not familiar with Native American culture and mythology.
There are MANY tales about Wolf, Snake, Crow, etc., more than there are
Greek myths. I'm not making a value judgment in comparing them (my pantheon
is Greek) - I'm just saying your value judgment is based on incorrect facts.


> [ . . . ] Shamanism tends to be a one Totem thing. You "worship" one,
> the one who has chosen you, and therefore you and he are the same.

To reiterate once more -- shamanism is NOT worship-based. You don't have to
"worship" a totem; some totems may even disdain that sort of approach. In
my game, Raven pushes the PC shaman to be independent, strong-minded, and
willful. "Worshiping" Raven, protrating oneself before her and following
her without question, would earn Raven's disfavor pretty quickly. Most
totems want respect, not adulation.


> But what are they really. It's said they are free spirits from the
> metaplane called Guinee, just as the viking gods would be free spirits
> from walhalla, same for Olympus, Nirvana and all the other "heavens".

Now who said this? Is this a Shadowtalk comment or something that was
actually in the rules? And is your implied comment about other pantheons
also stated in the same source?


> So heaven is a Metaplane and the gods are Free spirits.

Whoa. MAJOR inference. It makes for a nice theory, but there's no
overriding reason for most of the post-Awakening population to believe it,
nor for it to enter into the game system.

(Sending PC's to Hell WOULD be a nice adventure.. >8-> I can just see my
players' reactions now. "How's it different from Seattle?")



> Hope to haven't insulted any religious fanatics out there. But then again
> if you are a relious fanatic, I guess you desperatly need to be insulted. :)

One should never be insulted by another person's opinion.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "Program flowering --
My opinions are my opinions. | Procedures, functions, data
Please don't blame anyone else. | Bloom effervescent."
Message no. 3
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Gods and the SR Universe
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:34:09 +0200
> > Hope to haven't insulted any religious fanatics out there. But then again
> > if you are a relious fanatic, I guess you desperatly need to be insulted. :)
>
> One should never be insulted by another person's opinion.

Unless its his opinion about you or something you care about.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Gods and the SR Universe, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.