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Message no. 1
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:28:43 -0500
Ok, here's a thought, since the topic of "Good" and "Bad" RPG's has
come up...

What type of character do you play?

Is he (she?) a Good Character? Is he evil?? Or somewhere in between??

Now, i don't expect any Shadowrun Characters to be total angels, so good is
a little loosley defined. Evil is still definately is classified as the
nasty demon summoning, taking candy from babies, taunting FASAMike type
Evil...

What type of Character do you play, and what does he/she do taht makes her
this way?

In my group, Bull is most definately a Good character. Bull is a family
man (ork?), trying to do his best for his family. He doens't murder (No
wetwork or assasination jobs), and tries to take jobs that he won't regret
later. He helps out a friend or contact and doesn't ask for a reward, is
loyal to his companions, and honest as he can be. He does steal, after all
he's a decker, but views corps in general as a necessary evil. He's not
really a Neo-A, and doesn't believe all that "Bring down the Corps, bring
down the Government" crap, But he doesn't feel bad about running against
them. And he tries to avoid killing on the job...

Bull-the-just-curious-ork-decker
--
Bull-the-I'm-now-cuddley-because-Dvixen-said-so-ork-decker-turned-GM

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****,com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I dare you to use that .sig file for a week!"
-Dvixen, after seeing my new .sig
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:15:25 -0800
At 05:28 1/17/97 -0500, Bull wrote:
>What type of character do you play?

>Is he (she?) a Good Character? Is he evil?? Or somewhere in between??

In general, I tend to play Good characters, since it tends to be more of
a challenge. Being an amoral, vicious bastard who's ready to screw over
the rest of the universe is just too easy, though it seems to be standard
for Shadowrun (judging by how FASA writes their modules). Being downright
evil and sadistic with a view that all other living beings are mere tools is
also just too easy, and unsettles most of my fellow gamers...

The main problem is common to almost all RPG's. One of the character
creation questions that you almost never hear is: "Why is my character
insane?" In almost all gaming systems, your character needs to be crazy
enough to risk their life on a regular basis. If their motivation is only
"to get out of this lousy situation I'm in", the character will be retiring
fairly quickly as soon as they can amass enough money to stop making it
by risking their life.

Some characters I can come up with other reasons for insanity. But one
of my favorites is to give them a moral sense, a drive to right wrongs
and solve the problems of the world where they come across them. In our
SR game, we used a commonality of belief that's a not-terribly-strict
notion of Good as one of the strictures for the initiatory group the
PC's created. (For purely roleplaying purposes, we upped the TN for
creating the group by 2 and made it possible to take mundanes who join
for 1 karma apiece, though it takes 6 joining to give you an extra die
roll. The only bonuses are that you can assense the mundanes to make
sure they haven't broken the strictures of the group and you can take
them along on astral quests-- basically, things to make it easier for
professionally paranoid characters to trust each other and to let the
mundanes join the Astral Quests...) We run the game Troupe-style, so
no one has to spend all their time GM'ing.

>What type of Character do you play, and what does he/she do taht makes her
>this way?

Let's see, my characters:

Barry the Troll Physical Adept, aikido expert and sophisticate, BA in
English Literature from UC Berkeley, has a strong moral sense and a dislike
for injustice. (Having goblinized in puberty [and gotten over the trauma
through discipline learned in martial arts], he's been on both sides of the
race fence.) As a philosopher who can actually take action, he's often torn
between doing the right thing and not getting arrested for doing so...

Talks-With-Cats, human Hermetic mage and occasional computer hacker,
Bachelor of Thaumaturgy from MIT&T, sees the world as full of problems
that need solving, and when he can fix things, he does. His back porch
is usually full of neighborhood stray cats who come for the free food and
nests of old blankets, and he works part-time in a local clinic wielding
healing magicks.

Max Headroom, human decker, synthlinked musician, and futurian, is intensely
interested in building a better future for all humanity. (The character
reads too much science fiction, and is currently trying worrying about the
details of a Vernor Vinge style Singularity: will it happen through
technology? magic? a synthesis? could there be two competing ones duking
it out?) Max would rather not add to the world's problems, and prefers to
think about how one would go about dealing with the world's larger problems
rather than following Barry's "think globally, act locally" path.

Johnny Doppler, human rigger and technojunkie, is a lunatic who likes fast
cars and dangerous toys; he has a grudge against people who shaft folks who
can't defend themselves, having been on the receiving end himself. (He got
his start as a rigger in the LA underworld where he was one of a bunch of
teenagers showing a talent for grand theft auto who got outfitted with rigs
and were to be used for essentially suicidal missions. He's not going to be
happy if he has to go back to that part of LA...)

>In my group, Bull is most definately a Good character. Bull is a family
>man (ork?), trying to do his best for his family. He doens't murder (No
>wetwork or assasination jobs), and tries to take jobs that he won't regret
>later. He helps out a friend or contact and doesn't ask for a reward, is
>loyal to his companions, and honest as he can be. He does steal, after all
>he's a decker, but views corps in general as a necessary evil. He's not
>really a Neo-A, and doesn't believe all that "Bring down the Corps, bring
>down the Government" crap, But he doesn't feel bad about running against
>them. And he tries to avoid killing on the job...

One of the initiatory group's strictures is protecting innocents-- the only
type of wetwork job they'd take something where they're called upon to
be judge, jury, and possibly executioner for someone who's evading the
law. They tend to use a lot of gel rounds and occasional Narcoject darts.
And they've been building a reputation for extreme stealth, rather than
damage potential. (They have a collection of news articles on chip that
have various announcers being completely baffled, having interviews with
irrelevant people, etc., to give out when someone asks for a brag sheet.
If they don't get it, the team probably doesn't want to work for them...)
I have fun with newsghouls reporting the bad side effects of the characters'
actions. (They're currently squirming a bit over some city maintenance
workers suffering from burst eardrums due to being hit by a concussion grenade
in a storm drain, and contemplating buying them cyberears anonymously as a
way of (a) righting the wrong and (b) acquiring contacts...)

--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 3
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:48:02 -0005
On 17 Jan 97 at 5:28, Bull wrote:

> Ok, here's a thought, since the topic of "Good" and "Bad" RPG's
has come up...
>
> What type of character do you play?
>
> Is he (she?) a Good Character? Is he evil?? Or somewhere in between??

I like those "thousand shades of grey" myself. People are complex
critters,
trying to classify them in terms of just good or evil is hard to do. Sort of
like a certain game system <coAD&Dugh> trying to put everyone into nine
"alignments".

>
> Now, i don't expect any Shadowrun Characters to be total angels, so good is a
> little loosley defined. Evil is still definately is classified as the nasty
> demon summoning, taking candy from babies, taunting FASAMike type Evil...
>
> What type of Character do you play, and what does he/she do taht makes her
> this way?

I've just started a new SR character... elven mage and gang member in the
heart of Bug City. I guess this character typifies "my favorite" kind of
character. He's a complex individual. In some ways he's evil. He manipulates
people, uses them, has no qualms about killing as a solution, can be cruel at
times, and over all is very Machivellian. Yet he's got his good side too. He
will not break his word of honor... period. He won't betray his friends (what
few he has, he places high value on true friends). Every year, just before
Christmas he has a personal tradition. He spends a large whack of cred buying
things the local orphanage needs and donates it... anonymously. (An orphanaged
was added to our campaign for just this reason.) So far, only my character,
the priest who runs the place and the GM know, and that's how my character
want's to keep it. He won't harm kids either.
One interesting scene recently was his visit to the orphanage. The kids there
are scared drekless of him... they think of him as sort of the "bogeyman".
He'd shown up to return a cross that had been stolen and collect the reward
(which mysteriously found it's way back to the priest as well :). The kids
were terrified of him, still remembering the week before when he and his gang
wiped out the 93rd St Mongrels (in a spetacular blood bath). The kids don't
know that the reason he wiped the Mongrels out is because he found out they
were trying to push BTLs at the orphanage. Nor do the kids know that those new
blankets they got this winter came from him. They think he's evil incarnate...
So it gets a little weird to have them terrified of the very person protecting
them.
It's true he doesn't have a problem with killing as a solution (ie. assassination)
he
won't kill without a reason (albeit for him... being payed is sometimes reason
enough). He can be cruel and vengeful. When I say he wiped out the
Mongrels... I mean he slaughtered them to the man... not a single survivor.
But what really appeals to me about this character isn't his dark side..
it's how he deals with it. He has his own code of honor... a twisted one... but
a code of honor none-the-less. He isn't just another violent lunatic... he's
far more complex, interesting and flat out dangerous than that. And he does
have his moments when he can be a saint. What makes him fun to play is working
through all this, and seeing where it leads. Maybe he'll mellow out... maybe
he'll become a total cynic and completely amoral. I don't know... but I know
it's going to be interesting finding out.
--
Ashelock
(woneal@*******.net)

"When the Man with the Hoe rises up to judge this world,
after the Silence of the centuries,
let him not find me lacking in merit."
Message no. 4
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 01:23:32 +0100
On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 05:28:43 -0500, Bull wrote:

>What type of Character do you play, and what does he/she do taht makes her
>this way?

My current character is not really good, but not bad either.
To be sure, he started as a real munchkin's PC, because our GM at that
time made playing munchkinous (great word, is this english?), so he's
not as rich a background as Bull, but he's working out.
In short, he (Tom) is an Ork merc who used to be in the UCAS army.
Since he used to work for some fixers illegally at last he got kicked
out of the army.
He kills people, but not for fun, only when it's "necessary", for
example when he's attacked. He uses his weapons to kill, but if there
are wounded after a fight he takes a little care for them (1st aid,
DocWagon, whatever seems appropriate). And he would only accept a job
he could justify. So he would never kill someone just for money (or
even for fun).
Helping friends or contacts for free is no problem for him, but he
would try to get his expenses back.
So (in my personal standard) he's not a guy I would like, but I think
he's not all bad.

-- Arno
Message no. 5
From: Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:32:58 -0800
Bull wrote:
>
> Ok, here's a thought, since the topic of "Good" and "Bad" RPG's
has come up...
>
> What type of character do you play?
>
> Is he (she?) a Good Character? Is he evil?? Or somewhere in between??
>
> Now, i don't expect any Shadowrun Characters to be total angels, so good is
> a little loosley defined. Evil is still definately is classified as the
> nasty demon summoning, taking candy from babies, taunting FASAMike type
> Evil...

Well it varies, but I tend to enjoy a little evil- ussually not too much
(well there is my Settite). My current character is a nice guy, who
gives to charity, volunteers for political a social issues, is loyal to
friends and family. Of course he does hunt down informants in the mob
with ritual magic, either killing them or turning over their location to
someone who will, and he recently tortured a guy to death for screwing
him over, then had the body in a nice coffin sent to the MCT corp
offices with a warning to the yakuza not to fuck with him, yeah he's
probly not long for the world, but he's a fun guy to play. ("I will not
be a patsy")
Message no. 6
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:42:00 EST
On Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:32:58 -0800 Charles Baker <karolusb@**.NETCOM.COM>
writes:
>Bull wrote:
>>
>> Ok, here's a thought, since the topic of "Good" and "Bad"
RPG's has
>come up...
>>
>> What type of character do you play?
>>
>> Is he (she?) a Good Character? Is he evil?? Or somewhere in
>between??
>>

Mine depend on and vary from character to character. One Dwarf merc-mage
had strong views about honoring contracts, and didn't look favorably on
causing damage to 'civilian' property.

Another was a former member of the Halloweeners and slightly
unhinged...so morality was a bit out the window..

Shade, got out of corporate security for several reasons, one of them was
that he was tired of not having any say in what he did...corp orders
often made him cross lines that he hated to cross. He now has a chance
to practice his craft and make follow his own rules (not to mention
morals).

Part of the fun of Shadowrun is having your character get out there and
try to uphold their codes of honor, morals or business while surviving in
the urban jungle.

~Tim
Message no. 7
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:19:00 MST
>> Ok, here's a thought, since the topic of "Good" and "Bad"
RPG's has
>> come up...
>>
>> What type of character do you play?
>>
>> Is he (she?) a Good Character? Is he evil?? Or somewhere in between??
>
> I like those "thousand shades of grey" myself. People are complex
>critters,
>trying to classify them in terms of just good or evil is hard to do. Sort
of
>like a certain game system <coAD&Dugh> trying to put everyone into nine
>"alignments".

I've been on the AD&D list for almost a year, and I have found that most
people don't understand the alignment system. Like you said, people are
complex in terms of alignment, and most can't be pegged into one specific
alignment. Most people are not "strongly aligned" and kind of bleed over
(pun intended) into other alignments from time to time.

When you pick an alignment in AD&D, you are saying that most of the time,
for the most part, my character generally behaves according to this
alignment, but is not bound strictly by it. Paladins and priests (and other
characters who take their alignment very seriously) are 90% of the time
faithful to their alignment (100% for paladins). But the average person
isn't.

Almost every shadowrunner has to follow the unwritten code of shadowrunning,
but that doesn't mean he has to be totally Lawful. Some shadowrunners
basically consider themselves decent people, but have to kill every once in
a while. This doesn't make them totally Evil.

The nine alignments represented in AD&D are universal concepts that can be
applied to any game system. They are ideals that not everyone lives up to,
assuming they even want to.

It is hard to classify someone into one alignment, but not hard to see
general pattern of behavior, which will fit into one of the nine alignments.
Maybe not real well, but close enough to generally summarize their beliefs.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 8
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:32:57 -0600
[...8<... Big piece about AD&D and people *sort of* being good or evil]

The problem with any sort of alignment system of classification, IMO, is
that the definitions depend upon who is doing the defining. It is all
too common that people differ over the definitions of "good" and
"bad".


Diamond
Message no. 9
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:50:00 MST
>[...8<... Big piece about AD&D and people *sort of* being good or evil]
>
>The problem with any sort of alignment system of classification, IMO, is
>that the definitions depend upon who is doing the defining. It is all
>too common that people differ over the definitions of "good" and
"bad".
>
>
>Diamond

Yeah, that's true. My friend an I had an arguement, or..uh..a discussion
about the existence of a universal concept of good and evil, one not based
on culture. Sometimes certain actions or concepts could be a little hard to
define as Good or Evil, but most of the time its pretty easy to separate.
Especially with Neutral in between.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 10
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:30:02 +0000
On 23 Jan 97 at 9:50, Denzil Kruse wrote:
[snip]
> Yeah, that's true. My friend an I had an arguement, or..uh..a discussion
> about the existence of a universal concept of good and evil, one not based
> on culture. Sometimes certain actions or concepts could be a little hard to
> define as Good or Evil, but most of the time its pretty easy to separate.
> Especially with Neutral in between.
It is? What about death penalty? What about mob-lynching someone who
raped a child? Good or evil? Hey, sorry to say so, but... Get A Life!

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 11
From: Kevin White <kevw@*****.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:49:41 -0600
Sascha Pabst wrote:
> > Sometimes certain actions or concepts could be a little hard to
> > define as Good or Evil, but most of the time its pretty easy to separate.
> > Especially with Neutral in between.
> It is? What about death penalty? What about mob-lynching someone who
> raped a child? Good or evil? Hey, sorry to say so, but... Get A Life!
>

I think these are some of the items that come under the "grey" areas and
cause discussion/argument.


Diamond
Message no. 12
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:19:00 MST
>On 23 Jan 97 at 9:50, Denzil Kruse wrote:
>[snip]
>> Yeah, that's true. My friend an I had an arguement, or..uh..a discussion
>> about the existence of a universal concept of good and evil, one not
based
>> on culture. Sometimes certain actions or concepts could be a little hard
to
>> define as Good or Evil, but most of the time its pretty easy to separate.
>> Especially with Neutral in between.
>
>It is? What about death penalty? What about mob-lynching someone who
>raped a child? Good or evil? Hey, sorry to say so, but... Get A Life!
>
> Sascha

Death penalty? IMO, the death penalty itself, or more accurately, the
willingness of a person or society to kill, is not something you can assign
an alignment to until it is applied. Depending on the reasons behind it, it
could be considered a Lawful or Chaotic act, or a Good or Evil act. Or
somewhere in between (Neutral). IMO, a person or society can still be
considered Good after taking a life if the reason was for a Good reason.

Who judges whether it is Good or not? Well, in real life I couldn't claim
to judge based on a universal idea of Good, because I have no way to prove
it. Based on what little I know of philosophy, it is impossible to prove.
But in the game world, the DM can prove it because he created the world.
His or her idea of a universal Good and Evil is the real one in his world.

>What about mob-lynching someone who raped a child?

What was the reason and situation behind it? The act itself can't be given
an alignment either until the situation is considered.

Did the mob try to let the existing law enforcement structure (government,
council, king, tribal chieftain, circle of elders, high priest) try the
person first? Did they feel it failed so acted on their own, structured
personal code? Any answer of yes: it was a Lawful act.

Did the mob not even think twice about the legality of it? Did they just
rush off and lynch the rapist without considering any kind of makeshift
trial or give him a chance to defend himself from the charges (like being
caught in the act)? Then it would be a Chaotic act.

Did the mob, outraged at the spectacle of a raped child, lynch the rapist
because it was the 4th time he has raped a child? In the past, the mob
tried to understand what drove the rapist to rape. They put him in jail or
exile for a number of years and did everything they could to help,
understand, and heal him, but no matter what they did, he escaped, came back
from exile, or whatever, to constantly repeat the crime. Tormented by his
crimes and feelings, helpless to stop, the criminal keep following his path
and will never stop. IMO, his death would be a Good act.

Did the mob use the rape as an excuse to lynch the rapist because he was a
rich man and they wanted his money? Did they even trick the child and sent
her into the rapist's home, who was drunk and told to do it? I would
consider this an Evil act.

>Good or evil? Hey, sorry to say so, but... Get A Life!

I agree that there are grey areas. And I think some of them will be
resolved by the DM's personal idea of Good and Evil. But I don't think this
makes D&D's alignment system an invalid system. I think it is the best
system you are going to find without going real in-depth. And I think it
can be applied to any other game system you play, including ones with alien
(or non-human) races involved.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 13
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:10:20 +1000
Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM> said:

> Yeah, that's true. My friend an I had an arguement, or..uh..a discussion
> about the existence of a universal concept of good and evil, one not based
> on culture. Sometimes certain actions or concepts could be a little hard to
> define as Good or Evil, but most of the time its pretty easy to separate.
> Especially with Neutral in between.

This is what I like so much about my "weltanschauung":
in chinese Tao, it is said that there can be no evil without knowing
what good is, and vice versa. You have to define what's good, and
what's bad first. Several native South American tribes consider it as
being fair to kill an enemy by backstabbing him.
Tao Tse said "what makes a window a window?" - "The combination of
nothingness and wall." "What makes a cup a cup?", and so on.

I kind of like this approach.

:)
BulletShower

______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 14
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:08:01 +0000
On 25 Jan 97 at 21:19, Denzil Kruse wrote:
[snip]
> Death penalty?
[snip even more]
> IMO, a person or society can still be
> considered Good after taking a life if the reason was for a Good reason.
Good reason? Good Reason? Good Reason(tm)? There is a good reason to
kill a person? When does a reason start to become a "good" reason? Who
decides?

[snip again]
> But in the game world, the DM can prove it because he created the world.
> His or her idea of a universal Good and Evil is the real one in his world.
No way I would ever class a doing (of a PC in a game world) either good
or evil. Considering what the consequences will be is hard enough,
without a moral dilema to think about.

> >What about mob-lynching someone who raped a child?
> What was the reason and situation behind it? The act itself can't be given
> an alignment either until the situation is considered.
killing a person can be good? or evil? You can't decide wether it is
morally correct to kill a person?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 15
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:40:00 MST
>> IMO, a person or society can still be
>> considered Good after taking a life if the reason was for a Good reason.
>
>Good reason? Good Reason? Good Reason(tm)? There is a good reason to
>kill a person? When does a reason start to become a "good" reason? Who
>decides?

IMO, yes there can be a Good reason to kill someone. Removing a complety
evil person from the world when there is no other choice is a Good act.
IMO, it is the right thing to do.

Who decides if that is a Good reason? This is where a frame of reference
problem comes in. The one I mentioned before. I may think that is a Good
reason, you don't seem to. We seem to have different views of what makes up
Good. We have no Universal definition of Good to compare our beliefs to.
In a game world, there could be one. In D&D there is one because the gods
(read: DM) decide. There may or may not be in Shadowrun, depending on what
the DM decides.

>>[snip again]
>> But in the game world, the DM can prove it because he created the world.
>> His or her idea of a universal Good and Evil is the real one in his
world.
>
>No way I would ever class a doing (of a PC in a game world) either good
>or evil. Considering what the consequences will be is hard enough,
>without a moral dilema to think about.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are saying, but if you have never
had a character wrestle with a moral dilemna, you are missing out on a big
part of the game.

>>>What about mob-lynching someone who raped a child?
>>
>> What was the reason and situation behind it? The act itself can't be
given
>> an alignment either until the situation is considered.
>
>killing a person can be good? or evil? You can't decide wether it is
>morally correct to kill a person?

No, I can't. Not without the reason behind it.

> Sascha

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 16
From: "Paul J. Adam" <paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:43:15 +0000
In message <m0vopsD-0004wbC@*******.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>, Sascha
Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes
>Good reason? Good Reason? Good Reason(tm)? There is a good reason to
>kill a person? When does a reason start to become a "good" reason? Who
>decides?

Beats me. Legally, a prosecutor on whether a case exists to answer and
what crime you may be charged with, a jury as to whether you are guilty
of that crime. Morally? Yourself and the people around you, I guess.

>killing a person can be good? or evil? You can't decide wether it is
>morally correct to kill a person?

Let's say I'm back in uniform and under arms, on guard detail. A
terrorist is firing at my friends and is killing them.

If I shoot him he'll probably die.

If I don't shoot, he'll kill my comrades and then kill me.

Personally I'd say it was morally correct to shoot him. If he dies,
well, too bad, the moral is "don't be a terrorist, it's bad for your
health." My intent would not be to kill him, though, just to
incapacitate him as quickly and efficiently as possible: it's just that
the most effective ways of doing so tend to be fatal.

You can't decide until you know the situation.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 17
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:27:06 -0700
Paul J. Adam wrote:
|
| In message <m0vopsD-0004wbC@*******.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>, Sascha
| Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes

[snip: moral killing?]

Unless you can tie this thread in with Shadowrun, please take
it to private mail.

Thanks,
-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 18
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:46:39 +0000
On 27 Jan 97 at 19:43, Paul J. Adam wrote:
[snip]
> >killing a person can be good? or evil? You can't decide wether it is
> >morally correct to kill a person?
> Let's say I'm back in uniform and under arms, on guard detail. A
> terrorist is firing at my friends and is killing them.
> If I shoot him he'll probably die.
> If I don't shoot, he'll kill my comrades and then kill me.
Ah, they used similar questions back in the days when not joining the
Bundeswehr (for moral reasons) still meant you had to go to a
questioning. Ahh, "good" old times :-)

In fact, please note I didn't say (and will not say) I wouldn't kill in
self-defense, or condemn any killing, esp in self defense. I just can't
stand the argument "that is good". No, it's not. It's merly neccessary
to protect oneself or one's friends. Wether you're wearing uniform or
not does not matter: Self defense is not "good" or "evil".

[snip conclusion]
> You can't decide until you know the situation.
Again I have to quote someone...
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some
that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not bee too
eager to deal out death in judgement." (I think you know where this is
from? :-)

What I am trying to say is deciding wether a character acts "good" or
"bad" is always difficult to say, and judging how much Karma one
deserves 'cause he acted "good" is questionable at least. (See, David,
I made it back to SR :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 19
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Good vs. Evil vs. ???
Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:59:52 +1000
Also sprach Sascha Pabst:
[snip discussion and army tidbits]
> What I am trying to say is deciding wether a character acts "good" or
> "bad" is always difficult to say, and judging how much Karma one
> deserves 'cause he acted "good" is questionable at least.

> (See, David, I made it back to SR :-)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PHEW!! I thought this thread was developing slowly but surely into
Very OT ... thanks for dropping it.

:)
BulletShower


______________________________________________________________________
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