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Message no. 1
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Gossamer's thoughts on the Highlander
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 23:27:21 -0600
> > As for what happens when one HI takes the head of another... Well,
that's
> > something that hasn't even been explained in the TV Show, let alone the
> > movies... It's assumed that they gain some power from the HI they
kill,
> > but in what amount? All the memories? All the skill? Or just a
little
> > more raw power?
>
> From what iv seen and read about when the HI kills another HI They gain
> the skills of the person they kill (watch the 3rd Highlander and listen
> closely to the chinese guy that was McClouds mentor for a little wile,
> he tells McCloud to kill him before another does so his illusion powers
> wont fall into the wrong hands).

As I recall from reading the novel (I found it in Europe, and have yet to
find a copy here in the US), the Victor absorbs some portion of the
essence of the Fallen, and that means some of the memories, skills,
and power.

Also, as to why they healed at different rates, the HI are constantly
juggling the massive energy they have. They use it to make themselves
superhumanly strong, swift, perceptive, charasmatic, etc. They also
use it to mask their presence (that's how they hide from mortals and
each other), regenerate, and other 'quickening' sorts of things.

So, view the HI in terms energy prodcuers and users. Each produces
a certain level of energy. This base level of energy determines the
general power level of the HI. With more Kills and Absorbtions, this
base power level grows. There is, however, some variance in the
base levels of the HI's. That's why both Ramirez and the Kurgan
sought out the Highlander. He had a naturally high 'aptitude' for
quickening. Kurgan tried to kill him before he could realize his
potential, and Ramirez tried to make him realize his potential and
prepare him for the Kurgan.

Ok, they each produce energy at certain rates. They can
store up some of this energy, but there's a limit.

Now, each HI quickening power burns energy at certain rates.
For example, say a nonspecific HI gets shot by a human in the
stomach, ouch, but he is in no danger of permanent death
because there are no broadsword wielding lunatics in New York
at this 2am, so he puts minimal energy into regeneration and
maximum energy into Speed and Arcane(pardon the WW
term, but it fits the situation). Doing these things takes
less energy than he's producing, so he doesn't drain his
energy reserve. He disappears from the scene and
gets away, all safe and sound.

Now, say he gets into a fight with an HI. He has to jack
up his stats to a level that will allow him to compete with
his opponent, and hopefully prevail. He will use other
quickening powers at tactically helpful points. (Connor
in Madison Square Garden turns on his Arcane and
turns off his super human stats when he gets disarmed
by Fazil: this serves 2 purposes: he can put more
energy into his Arcane, and he can set his Arcane at
such a level that he can actually regain energy while
trying to regain his weapon.)

When an HI gets wounded, they suffer the affects of
the wound, they get a reduction in their energy output,
and they have an instinctive reaction to try to heal it
which subtracts from their ability to put energy elsewhere.
That's why when Connor is fighting the Kurgan, the
Highlander cuts his belly twice. It puts a drain on
Kurgan's energy reserves, his energy production,
and his superhuman stats. The rest that Connor
got from Brenda's distraction was enough of a
recharge (he had great energy output) that he
could take it to the Kurgan.

In summation, I think that this 'energy juggling'
'energy production/storage/use' view is the most
accurate way to perceive what's going on.

Now, how would I put that into an SR game?
I would make HI an A priority phys-ad.
I'd make it up as a phys-ad sort of thing, with
a certain amount of points that go to set the
HI energy production, and a certain amount of
points that would go to the energy reserve
(HERO system guys will recognize this as an
endurance reserve). I would also have a HI
skill, or series of skills, for various quickening
abilities. The number of successes would determined
the level of effect(as always) and the TN would be
determined by what power was being attempted. Or
maybe, the amount of energy one could burn in an
turn would be determined by the number of success.
Each level of effect will have a 'certain' energy cost
per action, and each power would have different
costs per level of effect.

So, what is the effect of one HI killing another HI?
Easy. the Victor gets 'some portion' of the Fallen's
Karma. This Karma is used to increase the HI
skill(s), and pay for HI initiation which is like regular
initiation except that it is cannot part of a group,
nor are there ordeals to lower the cost. That makes
it expensive to be an HI. This Karma can also
be used to 'spontaneously aquire' phys-ad powers
and other skills as long as that power was possessed
by the Fallen.

This is how an HI will gain power. But how do they get
started?? They can get HI skill(s) and their energy
stats from character generation, but I think also that
one HI should be allowed to teach another HI those
abilities...(ie if an HI has an HI instructor, then he
can use non HI-kill Karma to increase HI skill(s) and
initiate).

The ways it would balance would be like this:
First, as a phys-ad, they spend their magic to aquire
their HI energy reserve (or other phys-ad powers if
they want to be weaker HI's), and that's a limiting
factor.
Second, the cost of initiation is HIGH!!!
Third, in order to gain HI Karma, one must first find,
then defeat another HI. As an HI gets higher and
higher, he needs to defeat more and more HI to
ascend.
Finally, if an HI takes a wound, they need to reroll
their HI skill(s) for each power they have up, and
start regeneration at some level, so their superhuman
abilities will faulter as they take damage (because
of the adjusted TN from the wound). This makes
them vulnerable. The minimum level of regeneration
will be determined by the wound level. That's why
a mortal wound is debilitating to an HI (ie Ramirez
at his death, got stabbed through the heart
(deadly+++) and had to put his regeneration up
so high, that he could do nothing but pray.)


How! I just made that up as I went along... It could
work. Relatively simple, elegant balanced.



Critiques???? Comments???



Gossamer
Message no. 2
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gossamer's thoughts on the Highlander
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:49:02 -0500
[Snip a lot of REALLY good ideas]

Nice job of explaining things, Gossamer... Very nicely done, and it makes
a LOT of sense...

One thing that Tinner and I have played with, at one time or another, was a
Highlander RPG... I outlined some basic rules once, but because I could
never figure out what the powers did, and how the HI's gained power from
kills, I was missing some critical rules...

Basically, what you were saying, is that HI's have base stats, which they
can then modify by putting their "energy" into Strength, or Quickness, or
whatever... They can also use these points towards "powers", such as Sword
Skill, or Illusions, or Magic, or whatever...

Cool... this would work VERY well as an RPG...

Damn, another idea for the poor old over worked woodchuck in my head (I
fired the hamster... too small:))...

If I get anything written up, I'll let ya'll know, and I'll try to put it
in SR rules, if possible... I like Gossamer's Phys-Ad idea, but I think
this might work better if given as a whole new "Race", with it's own set of
rules... I'll see what I can come up with, eventually... I have too many
projects going on at the moment to get it written up right away...

Bull-the-not-enough-time-in-the-day-Ork-Decker
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max
Message no. 3
From: Gossamer <kajohnson@*******.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Re: Gossamer's thoughts on the Highlander
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:31:51 -0600
> Nice job of explaining things, Gossamer... Very nicely done, and it
makes
> a LOT of sense...

Thank you for the compliment. The thing that I'm most proud of is that
I made it up on the spot, no thinking required.

Of course the fact that I'm a fanatic about that movie helped a bit. :)

> Basically, what you were saying, is that HI's have base stats, which they
> can then modify by putting their "energy" into Strength, or Quickness,
or
> whatever... They can also use these points towards "powers", such as
Sword
> Skill, or Illusions, or Magic, or whatever...

Right. Now, think of some ramifications of this: So, an HI will put out a
certain amount of energy every turn, and once his reserve is at full, it
only makes sense that the HI will then boost his stats/perceptions at
a level equal to (or slightly less than) his energy out put. This would
be his maintainence level. For example, when Ramirez was sharing
wine with Heather and he sensed the Kurgan before the birds did, he
was at his energy maintainence level with his perception jacked as
high as he could put them and not burn his reserve.

So, even at this 'rest state/maintainence level' an HI will have 'some'
ultra human characteristics. Now, maybe too, the 'Detectability' of
an HI by other HI could be influenced by his energy usage.

> Cool... this would work VERY well as an RPG...

I think it's very limited in scope. Maybe it's too limited to be a full
fledged
RPG, but it could easily piggy-back on EarthDawn or SR. I'd like to do
some 'fleshing out' of my concepts a bit more.

Upon rereading what I wrote, there are a lot of things I was thinking, that
I didn't say. I had dozens of comparisons and examples bouncing around
in the whirl wind in my head, and if I concentrate, I can tell what people
all
over the world are thinking... wait, I digress, flashback, whoa, sorry.

So what I'd like to do is reflect for a day or so, put some numbers to
the concepts...

> Damn, another idea for the poor old over worked woodchuck in my head (I
> fired the hamster... too small:))...

Actually, why don't you let me stew over it for a couple of days. I have
Spring break coming up starting Saturday, and I'll do a real write up with
FASA/SR rules terms. What I'd really like to happen is I'd like to get
into
a serious discussion (off the list) with people who would like to build
this
thing. See, I have the total picture in my head already... I just need
a bit of help getting it out in a coherent manner. It all works, and is
pretty balanced (in SR at least).

> If I get anything written up, I'll let ya'll know, and I'll try to put it
> in SR rules, if possible... I like Gossamer's Phys-Ad idea, but I think
> this might work better if given as a whole new "Race", with it's own set
of
> rules... I'll see what I can come up with, eventually... I have too
many
> projects going on at the moment to get it written up right away...

It was my thought that it would be something like Shapeshifters. Put in
an A priority and you can generate an HI (with GM consent).

Anyway, let the ideas flow,

Gossamer
Message no. 4
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.GOV>
Subject: Re: Gossamer's thoughts on the Highlander -Reply
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:56:51 -0500
>>> Bull <chaos@*****.COM> 03/20/97 08:49pm
>>>
(SNIP)
Damn, another idea for the poor old over worked
woodchuck in my head (I fired the hamster... too
small:))...
(SNIP)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

IF you GM try getting a wolverine... Bigger, stronger
and nasty when backed into a corner (especially with
players) :)
Message no. 5
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gossamer's thoughts on the Highlander -Reply
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:52:25 -0500
At 09:56 AM 3/21/97 -0500, Jeffrey Riordan wrote these timeless words:

> IF you GM try getting a wolverine... Bigger, stronger
>and nasty when backed into a corner (especially with
>players) :)
>
You must be new, otherwise you;ld have seen the woodchuck thread (DON'T
ASK!) and know how vicious and nasty woodchuck's can get...:]

And if you're new... please\, let me welcome you to the list! Hope ya
like mail...:]

Bull
--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max
Message no. 6
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gossamer's thoughts on the Highlander
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 13:34:01 GMT
I know it took a while but.
Gossamer writes

List load when you wrote this exceeded what i could read so it got
put in the 'reply when time permits pile', the axe of post lopping
has been sharpened so a copy of the origonal post might be required
for comprehension.

> As I recall from reading the novel (I found it in Europe, and have yet to
> find a copy here in the US), the Victor absorbs some portion of the
> essence of the Fallen, and that means some of the memories, skills,
> and power.
>
This would seem reasonable, but the effect must be moderate so.

> Also, as to why they healed at different rates, the HI are constantly
> juggling the massive energy they have. They use it to make themselves
> superhumanly strong, swift, perceptive, charasmatic, etc. They also
> use it to mask their presence (that's how they hide from mortals and
> each other), regenerate, and other 'quickening' sorts of things.
>
Your overall view on this looks pretty good, for a player that can
juggle the numbers well easy enough. Tactics could get a bit complex
but the system should be easy enough.

> Ok, they each produce energy at certain rates. They can
> store up some of this energy, but there's a limit.
>
> Now, each HI quickening power burns energy at certain rates.
>
> When an HI gets wounded, they suffer the affects of
> the wound, they get a reduction in their energy output,
> and they have an instinctive reaction to try to heal it
> which subtracts from their ability to put energy elsewhere.

> In summation, I think that this 'energy juggling'
> 'energy production/storage/use' view is the most
> accurate way to perceive what's going on.
>
> Now, how would I put that into an SR game?
> I would make HI an A priority phys-ad.
Bonus for being A priority would probably be accounted for in
'allowance to buy Highlander pool' and its benefits.

> I'd make it up as a phys-ad sort of thing, with
> a certain amount of points that go to set the
> HI energy production, and a certain amount of
> points that would go to the energy reserve
> (HERO system guys will recognize this as an
> endurance reserve).
Which presumably can be used to buy physical adept type powers at the
cost of draining it, so with this you can be a fair bit better than
your avarage physiclal adept at the cost of having to watch your
reserve duration.

> I would also have a HI
> skill, or series of skills, for various quickening
> abilities.

> So, what is the effect of one HI killing another HI?
> Easy. the Victor gets 'some portion' of the Fallen's
> Karma.
5 - 10% at best is sensible it should be nice but not overpowering.

> This Karma is used to increase the HI
> skill(s), and pay for HI initiation which is like regular
> initiation except that it is cannot part of a group,
> nor are there ordeals to lower the cost. That makes
> it expensive to be an HI. This Karma can also
> be used to 'spontaneously aquire' phys-ad powers
> and other skills as long as that power was possessed
> by the Fallen.
I would keep a single grade track just they have to intiate this way.

> Third, in order to gain HI Karma, one must first find,
> then defeat another HI. As an HI gets higher and
> higher, he needs to defeat more and more HI to
> ascend.
Yes but regular karma would also help, maybe only allowed to buy more
'highlander pool' with magic gained by grade increases paid for by HI
karma, or should you forget what i said above and have two 'grades'
one noraml and one HI that buys this pool and nothing else?

> Finally, if an HI takes a wound, they need to reroll
> their HI skill(s) for each power they have up,
i would make them bonus dice on things like physad abilities keeps
spare dice rolling under control, otherwsie actually getting hurt
could mean 5 minutes admin for a powerful character with everything
up.

> How! I just made that up as I went along... It could
> work. Relatively simple, elegant balanced.
>
> Critiques???? Comments???
>
Doesn't look a bad idea at all. Although 'bonus dice' physad style
are powerful it is an easy way to keep track of things.
If you allow 'HI pool' to 'buy' extra physad powers at say 1/2 cost
but it drains the pool at 1/round (so this level cannot be sustained
for that long) you might get someplace.

Needs thinking about and costing. I have seen far too many rules put
out in many places that were written on 'that looks nice' without
someone doing a bit of maths on what happens in typical cases.

Eg i like the SR compainion but look at the magical misfires rule,
use a force 1 spell and if you roll just a single 1 it blows up in
your face! regardless of how many dice you were rolling which is in
direct contrast to the Grimoire noting that yes a magician can cast a
force 1 spell throw piles of dice in it and resist negligable drain.

Overall though i like your idea but it needs a fair bit of work yet
to become playable, but then you say you made it up as you typed so
very good!

Mark

Further Reading

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