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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 07:47:16 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Gurth wrote:
/
/ According to Paul Gettle, at 17:01 on 20 Jan 99, the word on
/ the street was...
/
/ > Beef in particular will probably become a luxury food. It takes way
/ > more acres to produce a pound of beef than it does to prouce a pound
/ > of corn, wheat, or soy. In SR's time many of the world's prime cattle
/ > ranching regions, such as the US Midwest, or Argentina for example,
/ > will not be as available for ranching purposes. Therefore, expect to
/ > see beef substitutes.
/
/ Erm... I don't suppose you've heard of the bio-industry, with the emphasis
/ on "industry"? You can quite easily keep a cow on roughly three square
/ meters of floor, and if you really want to, you can even stack multiple
/ floors on top of each other. Or, as they're called here, "crate calves" --
/ a calf held in a wooden crate, and when it's grown so far it almost won't
/ fit in the crate anymore, it goes to the butcher.

It's not the ammount of space that a cow takes up that creates the
inefficiency, it's the ammount of space and energy required to grow the
grain to feed the cow that creates the inefficiency.

BTW, I'm not a vegetarian and like to eat beef. But, in deference to
environmentalists I have paid attention to them.

I forget the exact numbers, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow.
I believe the ratio is 10 pounds of grain are required to create one
pound of beef. Pigs are more efficient. And chickens are the most
efficient, but chickens.

So, cattle take up space and produce waste and require resources, plus
they require grain which requires space which produces waste and
require resources. If you add up all the numbers you lose a lot of
energy to create a pound of beef. Any meat product is inefficient and
wastes energy, even chicken.

In SR206x I feel that the same technology used to grow replacement body
parts would be used to grow beef, pork, chicken, or fish. You don't
have to worry about being kind to the animal. You don't have to rely
on the animals digestive system to inefficiently break down food. You
can skip that an provide the vat meat with pure nutrients (which can be
extracted from a much more efficient plant than corn, perhaps kelp or
algea). You can put the production facility right next to the packing
facility and eliminate transportation. All in all it would be a much
more efficient operation.

Such a company would lobby to support environmental protection laws
(they certainly wouldn't want competition from ranchers and
fishermen).

All IMHO.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Dallandra's Futures <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:47 GMT
Dallandra, the original mad cow, reads....

> I forget the exact numbers, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow.
> I believe the ratio is 10 pounds of grain are required to create one
> pound of beef. Pigs are more efficient. And chickens are the most
> efficient, but chickens.

Cows are fed grain? Here was me thinking that they were fed bits of
other dead animals, antibiotics, and sewage. Whoops! But then I am
British. Moo!!!

BTW, Mad Cow Disease symptoms are found in France too, at a similar
rate to the UK. However, in France they spot the BSE symptoms and say
'Magnesium Deficiency'.

Whatever the cause of cattle illness, the public opinion generally is
moving away from such intensive and illogical methods of keeping
cows. Thus, beef would become scarcer. And a luxury.

Dalla x x x


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!
__________________________________________________

All year round Email address: Mistress_Dalla@*******.com
Website http://come.to/Dallandra
Message no. 3
From: CASTELLI David <d.castelli@**************.FR>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:25:54 +0100
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
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I can't let tell such an infamy...

I'm french... sure... you can check my english... and let me tell you,
that in France, whenever we spot the symptoms,
we call it 'english flour indigestion'...

Nothing personnal...

Just joking

Phoenix... decker & burned out sorceress

AKA d.castelli@**************.fr



> Dallandra, the original mad cow, reads....
>
> > I forget the exact numbers, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a
> cow.
> > I believe the ratio is 10 pounds of grain are required to create one
> > pound of beef. Pigs are more efficient. And chickens are the most
> > efficient, but chickens.
>
> Cows are fed grain? Here was me thinking that they were fed bits of
> other dead animals, antibiotics, and sewage. Whoops! But then I am
> British. Moo!!!
>
> BTW, Mad Cow Disease symptoms are found in France too, at a similar
> rate to the UK. However, in France they spot the BSE symptoms and say
> 'Magnesium Deficiency'.
>
> Whatever the cause of cattle illness, the public opinion generally is
> moving away from such intensive and illogical methods of keeping
> cows. Thus, beef would become scarcer. And a luxury.
>
> Dalla x x x
>
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!
> __________________________________________________
>
> All year round Email address: Mistress_Dalla@*******.com
> Website http://come.to/Dallandra

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<TITLE>RE: Got Beef?</TITLE>
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<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=1
FACE="Arial">I can't let tell =
such an infamy...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=1
FACE="Arial">I'm french... =
sure... you can check my english... and let me tell you, that in =
France, whenever we spot the symptoms, </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=1
FACE="Arial">&nbsp;we call it =
'english flour indigestion'...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=1
FACE="Arial">Nothing personnal... =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=1
FACE="Arial">Just joking</FONT>
</P>

<P><B><I><FONT COLOR="#0000FF"
FACE="Monotype =
Corsiva">Phoenix...&nbsp;&nbsp; decker &amp; burned out =
sorceress</FONT></I></B>
</P>

<P><I><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2
FACE="Monotype Corsiva">AKA =
d.castelli@**************.fr</FONT><B></B><B></B></I>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<UL>
<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">Dallandra, the =
original mad cow, reads....</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt; I forget the =
exact numbers, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow.</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt; I believe the =
ratio is 10 pounds of grain are required to create one</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt; pound of =
beef.&nbsp; Pigs are more efficient.&nbsp; And chickens are the =
most</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">&gt; efficient, but =
chickens.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">Cows are fed grain? =
Here was me thinking that they were fed bits of</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">other dead animals, =
antibiotics, and sewage. Whoops! But then I am</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">British. =
Moo!!!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">BTW, Mad Cow Disease =
symptoms are found in France too, at a similar</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">rate to the UK. =
However, in France they spot the BSE symptoms and say</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">'Magnesium =
Deficiency'.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">Whatever the cause =
of cattle illness, the public opinion generally is</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">moving away from =
such intensive and illogical methods of keeping</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">cows. Thus, beef =
would become scarcer. And a luxury.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">Dalla x x x</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">* * * * * * * * * * =
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">Welcome to =
Dallandra's World. Now bend over!</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 =
FACE="Arial">__________________________________________________</FONT>=

</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">All year round Email =
address: Mistress_Dalla@*******.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FACE="Arial">Website</FONT><U> =
<FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"><A =
HREF="http://come.to/Dallandra"; =
TARGET="_blank">http://come.to/Dallandra</A></FONT></U>;
</P>
</UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Message no. 4
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:41:47 -0500
At 09:47 AM 1/21/99 , you wrote:
>It's not the ammount of space that a cow takes up that creates the
>inefficiency, it's the ammount of space and energy required to grow the
>grain to feed the cow that creates the inefficiency.
>
>BTW, I'm not a vegetarian and like to eat beef. But, in deference to
>environmentalists I have paid attention to them.
>
>I forget the exact numbers, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow.
>I believe the ratio is 10 pounds of grain are required to create one
>pound of beef. Pigs are more efficient. And chickens are the most
>efficient, but chickens.
>
>So, cattle take up space and produce waste and require resources, plus
>they require grain which requires space which produces waste and
>require resources. If you add up all the numbers you lose a lot of
>energy to create a pound of beef. Any meat product is inefficient and
>wastes energy, even chicken.

But you also have to factor other considerations into those equations to
determine efficiencies. Almost all food is shipped by truck or train, so
that volume, not weight is a consideration. Meat is generally more dense
that any other food, so for the same amount of volume in a truck you get
more mass of food. There is also more nutritional benefits, such as
calories etc in meat than in most grains and vegetables.

Last year a British group did a study to determine how much it cost it
terms of energy and cash to bring the same amount, nutritionally, of both
meat and grain/vegetables. They were very surprised to learn it was almost
exactly the same, not the much higher figures that most people thought
would be required for meat. Turns out that because most veggy things are
much more cyclic that meat in terms of growing, shiiping costs are a lot
higher than they would be for meat.

I'll see if I can track down the article.


Sommers
Homepage here now!
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~sommers/shadowrun.htm
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:40:49 +0100
According to Dallandra's Futures, at 14:56 on 21 Jan 99, the word on
the street was...

> Whatever the cause of cattle illness, the public opinion generally is
> moving away from such intensive and illogical methods of keeping
> cows. Thus, beef would become scarcer. And a luxury.

Today, yes. With the way the world is in SR, I would not be suprised if
they'd gone back to the methods that are going out of favor nowadays, as
in many areas it would be the only viable means of producing meat for
human consumption.

Also with the corps having the freedom they do, reports of diseases that
aren't can't infect, or in any case aren't dangerous to, humans (like the
one I don't know the English name for, but which caused hundreds of
thousands of pigs to be destroyed in this country over the past few years -
- "pig plague" is the literal translation of the Dutch name) would be
suppressed so that people do not lose confidence in the meat in the corp-
owned stores.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And that's as far as the conversation went.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:57:51 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Sommers wrote:
/
/ Last year a British group did a study to determine how much it cost it
/ terms of energy and cash to bring the same amount, nutritionally, of both
/ meat and grain/vegetables. They were very surprised to learn it was almost
/ exactly the same, not the much higher figures that most people thought
/ would be required for meat. Turns out that because most veggy things are
/ much more cyclic than meat in terms of growing, shiiping costs are a lot
/ higher than they would be for meat.
/
/ I'll see if I can track down the article.

I would love to see it. No offense, but I would really like to know
how they compared the nutritional value of meat and grain/vegetables.
Meat is (generally) high in protein and fat and has almost no fiber.
Grain/vegetables are high in carbohydrates and fiber and legumes can
equal protein content, where as the fat is quite low (with a few
exceptions).

And, if it takes approximately 14 lbs of grain to make 1 lb of beef,
how can it be more efficient than growing 1 lb of grain?

Hm... how to bring this back on topic...

Ah. Does anyone remember any references to farming or ranching in any
of the shadowrun sourcebooks or adventures? IIRC Paradise Lost refers
to pinapple plantations breifly, but that's all I can remember at the
moment.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: II Ryan Bowers <s21735@***.CA>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:10:14 -0600
David Buehrer wrote:

> Hm... how to bring this back on topic...
>
> Ah. Does anyone remember any references to farming or ranching in any
> of the shadowrun sourcebooks or adventures? IIRC Paradise Lost refers
> to pinapple plantations breifly, but that's all I can remember at the
> moment.
>

I think the Sioux section in NAN 1 has some mentioning of new more resistant
wheats and others that can be harvested twice a year. These would help to
alleviate the problem of the area required for the growth of cattle feed. Big
producers would most probably be Sioux, Algonquin-Manatoo (former Alberta
Canada), CAS (Texas), Sioux, and Argentina.

Thanks
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:25:38 -0600
On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:10:14 -0600 II Ryan Bowers <s21735@***.CA> writes:
>David Buehrer wrote:
>
>> Hm... how to bring this back on topic...
>>
>> Ah. Does anyone remember any references to farming or ranching in any
>> of the shadowrun sourcebooks or adventures? IIRC Paradise Lost refers
>> to pinapple plantations breifly, but that's all I can remember at the
>> moment.

>I think the Sioux section in NAN 1 has some mentioning of new more
resistant
>wheats and others that can be harvested twice a year.
<SNIP>

You are half right... Some such crops (Neo-triticale and Stonewheat) can
be harvested FOUR times a year! :) See page 98, second paragraph.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"We called him Mother Superior because of the length of his habit" --
Trainspotting
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:12:23 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, D. Ghost wrote:
/
/ On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:10:14 -0600 II Ryan Bowers <s21735@***.CA> writes:
/ >David Buehrer wrote:
/ >
/ >> Hm... how to bring this back on topic...
/ >>
/ >> Ah. Does anyone remember any references to farming or ranching in any
/ >> of the shadowrun sourcebooks or adventures? IIRC Paradise Lost refers
/ >> to pinapple plantations breifly, but that's all I can remember at the
/ >> moment.
/
/ >I think the Sioux section in NAN 1 has some mentioning of new more
/ resistant
/ >wheats and others that can be harvested twice a year.
/ <SNIP>
/
/ You are half right... Some such crops (Neo-triticale and Stonewheat) can
/ be harvested FOUR times a year! :) See page 98, second paragraph.

Well, that could go a long way toward explaining why meat is rare.
High yield, quick growing crops are a much better investment.

And I thought of another posibility. With the Awakening, UGE, and
Goblinization, and VITAS, I bet a lot of people started looking at
cows, pigs, chickens, and such sideways, wondering what the awakening
had done to them. "Hurry up and eat your steak before it grows a third
eye." "Yes daddy."

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:16:39 EST
In a message dated 1/21/1999 9:46:36 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

>
> It's not the ammount of space that a cow takes up that creates the
> inefficiency, it's the ammount of space and energy required to grow the
> grain to feed the cow that creates the inefficiency.

<snipped economics of cow feeding>

I have only one *real* thought here folks. Area of Effect "NUTRITION". Drain
is like "S" at most, and if performed from a specific power site or with a
decent power foci (and do NOT tell me that cattle producer's collectively
couldn't come up with that kind of cash), then the spell could become readily
usable and readily helpful. It would definitely be one of those places where
Magic *has* made something easier.

-K (and yes, I know that Area is not part of the spell design options list
specifically, but it *could* be done)
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:20:47 +1000
David Buehrer writes:
> I would love to see it. No offense, but I would really like to know
> how they compared the nutritional value of meat and grain/vegetables.
> Meat is (generally) high in protein and fat and has almost no fiber.
> Grain/vegetables are high in carbohydrates and fiber and legumes can
> equal protein content, where as the fat is quite low (with a few
> exceptions).
>
> And, if it takes approximately 14 lbs of grain to make 1 lb of beef,
> how can it be more efficient than growing 1 lb of grain?

Don't forget to factor in vitamins and mineral contents. Meat is usually a
_much_ richer source of minerals, such as calcium and iron, and free-range
meat isn't very fatty.

A truly balanced diet that is soley vegan usually involves eating about
twice as much mass as a balanced diet including all the food groups. Your
body isn't adapted to a purely vegan diet (humans have been omnivores at
least as far back as Homo Erectus), and you don't digest plant material as
effectively. This results in a high calorie count in your diet being
required, just to offset the extra work involved in digesting.

That also has other costs involved. A kilogram of grain or vegetablees takes
up a lot more space than a kilogram of beef or chicken. That's extra effort
in getting it to the market, extra effort getting it back home, extra
resources involved in storing it, extra effort involved in cooking it, etc.

Further more, animals can graze on grains that humans can't eat. Take the
Australian situation, for example. Nearly all the livestock in Australia
grazes on terrain where it would not be possible to crop for wheat, or other
grains. They live off grasses that are adapted to the poor quality dirt that
we have for soil, whilst the decent land is used for wheat farming.

(Mind you... we have cattle ranches as big as some European countries. :)
The largest cattle ranch in Australia is about the size of Texas)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 12
From: Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:47:48 -0600
At 09:20 AM 1/22/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
>(Mind you... we have cattle ranches as big as some European countries. :)
>The largest cattle ranch in Australia is about the size of Texas)
>
>--

Texas used to be a cattle ranch. :)

BlueMule
Message no. 13
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:08:43 +1000
> Texas used to be a cattle ranch. :)

Hmm.... let me guess the punch line:
* But the cows didn't like it there and moved away?

* But the cows agitated for the vote and so they declared it a state?

* What do you mean, _used_ to be? Austin looks a lot like a product of a
cattle ranch.

Etc, etc, etc...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 14
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: AW: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:46:58 +0100
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]Im
> Auftrag von David Buehrer
> Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 21. Januar 1999 1547
> An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Betreff: Re: Got Beef?
>

<snip>

> It's not the ammount of space that a cow takes up that creates the
> inefficiency, it's the ammount of space and energy required to grow the
> grain to feed the cow that creates the inefficiency.
>
> BTW, I'm not a vegetarian and like to eat beef. But, in deference to
> environmentalists I have paid attention to them.
>
> I forget the exact numbers, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a cow.
> I believe the ratio is 10 pounds of grain are required to create one
> pound of beef. Pigs are more efficient. And chickens are the most
> efficient, but chickens.

20kg - 1kg, I believe. And what is the point with chicken?

<Vincent Vega>
Pork tastes good, chicken tastes good.
</Vincent Vega>

ArcLight
ICQ 14322211
NO ONE IS SAFE FROM A MICROWAVE
Message no. 15
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:55:50 EST
In a message dated 1/21/99 6:46:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG writes:

> So, cattle take up space and produce waste and require resources, plus
> they require grain which requires space which produces waste and
> require resources. If you add up all the numbers you lose a lot of
> energy to create a pound of beef. Any meat product is inefficient and
> wastes energy, even chicken.

So you feed them soy-grain, er...wait

> In SR206x I feel that the same technology used to grow replacement body
> parts would be used to grow beef, pork, chicken, or fish. You don't
> have to worry about being kind to the animal. You don't have to rely
> on the animals digestive system to inefficiently break down food. You
> can skip that an provide the vat meat with pure nutrients (which can be
> extracted from a much more efficient plant than corn, perhaps kelp or
> algea). You can put the production facility right next to the packing
> facility and eliminate transportation. All in all it would be a much
> more efficient operation.
Don't forget whale farming either :-)
Message no. 16
From: Nexx Many-Scars <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:05:03 -0600
----------
> From: Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
>
> At 09:20 AM 1/22/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
> >(Mind you... we have cattle ranches as big as some European countries.
:)
> >The largest cattle ranch in Australia is about the size of Texas)
>
> Texas used to be a cattle ranch. :)

Now its just full of bullshit.
Message no. 17
From: Nexx Many-Scars <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:07:36 -0600
----------
> From: Nexx Many-Scars <nexx@********.NET>
>
> Now its just full of bullshit.

Sorry... realized I forgot <g>
Message no. 18
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:15:44 EST
In a message dated 1/21/99 4:10:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
robert.watkins@******.COM writes:

> > Texas used to be a cattle ranch. :)
>
> Hmm.... let me guess the punch line:
> * But the cows didn't like it there and moved away?
>
> * But the cows agitated for the vote and so they declared it a state?
>
> * What do you mean, _used_ to be? Austin looks a lot like a product of a
> cattle ranch.
"But now they have oil wells too" woulda been my guess.
Message no. 19
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:08:31 -0500
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At 11:51 AM 1/21/99 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>> Beef in particular will probably become a luxury food. It takes way
>> more acres to produce a pound of beef than it does to prouce a
pound
>> of corn, wheat, or soy.
<<Snip>>
>Erm... I don't suppose you've heard of the bio-industry, with the
emphasis
>on "industry"? You can quite easily keep a cow on roughly three
square
>meters of floor, and if you really want to, you can even stack
multiple
>floors on top of each other. Or, as they're called here, "crate
calves" --
>a calf held in a wooden crate, and when it's grown so far it almost
won't
>fit in the crate anymore, it goes to the butcher.

I won't contest the point that it doesn't take much space for the cows
themselves, but that's just part of the equation. To raise cattle, you
need more than just space for the cattle, you need to feed them. :)

It takes, on average, approximately 16 pounds of edible grain and soy
products to produce each pound of beef. This is where cattle farming
becomes acreage intensive, in the growing of the cattle feed.

- From a Shadowrun perspective, with the scarcity of farmland caused by
such things as the resource rush and certain of the Native American
Nations' oppositions to large scale farming, it becomes a lot more
attractive to eliminate the middleman, or in this case, the
middle-cow.

By selling the soy and the edible grain directly, instead of using it
to raise cattle, farm yields are multiplied many times over. Given the
choice between sacrificing the cow in the name of more efficient
farming, or facing worldwide famine, I have a feeling that most major
governments would subsidize farmers to do the former.


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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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Message no. 20
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:30:34 -0500
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At 07:47 AM 1/21/99 -0700, David B. wrote:
>It's not the ammount of space that a cow takes up that creates the
>inefficiency, it's the ammount of space and energy required to grow
the
>grain to feed the cow that creates the inefficiency.

Exactly.

>BTW, I'm not a vegetarian and like to eat beef.

Ditto that. I'm a downright carnivore. In fact, Saturday evening, I
plan to dine on a 2 inch thick, 10 ounce King Cut Filet Mignon Steak,
hand cut from the center of the finest cornfed beef tenderloin, that
just arrived Fed Ex, packed in dry ice, shipped straight from the
stockyards in Omaha.

>I forget the exact numbers, but it takes a lot of grain to feed a
cow.
>I believe the ratio is 10 pounds of grain are required to create one
>pound of beef.

I've read 16 to 1. Either way, it's hardly efficient, even if you do
factor in a certain ammount of slaughterhouse 'recyclings' added into
the diet.

>So, cattle take up space and produce waste and require resources

And not just cattle feed either. The ammount of water used in
production of the average cow is sufficient to float a destroyer
(something on average of 5,000 gallons of water per pound of beef
produced).

>In SR206x I feel that the same technology used to grow replacement
body
>parts would be used to grow beef, pork, chicken, or fish.

Good idea! This would make a good "Upper Middle Class Beef", though I
think the rich and super-rich would still insist on having the real
thing.

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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Message no. 21
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:50:03 -0500
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At 04:44 PM 1/21/99 -0600, Wretch wrote:
>On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, Lady Jestyr wrote:
>> I don't know why, but I have this image of a cow-print-patterned
vat, going
>> "Moo" a lot.
>
>http://www.kibo.com/exegesis/index.shtml#ANIMAL57
>
>And yes, Kibo is a real person.

I know. He once replied to one of my posts on Usenet. (If you're
curious, search any of the alt.religion.kibology archives for the word
"Meneudo")

And remember GMs, if your runners ever find them selves having to make
a run at one of these "beef vat facilities", make sure that the onsite
deckers are using Gateway2000 cyberdecks. :)

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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Message no. 22
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:41:43 -0500
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At 03:25 PM 1/21/99 -0600, D.Ghost wrote:
>>I think the Sioux section in NAN 1 has some mentioning of new more
>resistant
>>wheats and others that can be harvested twice a year.

>You are half right... Some such crops (Neo-triticale and Stonewheat)
can
>be harvested FOUR times a year! :) See page 98, second paragraph.

No matter how many harvests you have a year, there's still the fact
that you can either directly market those 10-16 pounds of wheat/grain,
or you can feed it to a cow to get 1 pound of beef for market.

Does the fact that you grew it in four harvests on N acres, instead of
one harvest on 4*N acres change the situation that much? :)

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-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:54:32 +1000
Paul Gettle writes:
> No matter how many harvests you have a year, there's still the fact
> that you can either directly market those 10-16 pounds of wheat/grain,
> or you can feed it to a cow to get 1 pound of beef for market.

*sigh* Or you can feed that cow on grasses not suitable for human
consumption, grown in ground not suitable for grain or vegetables, and thus
get an extra amount of food that would otherwise have been lacking.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 24
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:38:08 -0500
At 08:08 PM 1/21/99 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:
>
>I won't contest the point that it doesn't take much space for the cows
>themselves, but that's just part of the equation. To raise cattle, you
>need more than just space for the cattle, you need to feed them. :)
>
>It takes, on average, approximately 16 pounds of edible grain and soy
>products to produce each pound of beef. This is where cattle farming
>becomes acreage intensive, in the growing of the cattle feed.

Okay, here's where I'm having trouble. Your argument is that you can't
raise a cow, because doing so uses up the product of a large patch of
farmland.

You're making a fundamental assumption that a 2060-era, industrial-grown
cow is going to be fed plant matter that was grown up out of the ground on
useful, wide-open farmland.

Frankly, I find that doubtful. In fact, even before cattle ranching
becomes an indoor sport I'd imagine that you'd start off with manufactured
cattle feed synthesized directly from vat-produced nutrients in favor of
freeing up all that human-edible grain.


--
Starjammer - starjammer@**********.com - Marietta, GA

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it
to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn
the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be
nothing. Only I will remain."
-- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear, Frank Herbert, Dune
Message no. 25
From: Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:55:05 -0600
At 10:38 PM 1/21/99 -0500, Starjammer wrote:
>Frankly, I find that doubtful. In fact, even before cattle ranching
>becomes an indoor sport I'd imagine that you'd start off with manufactured
>cattle feed synthesized directly from vat-produced nutrients in favor of
>freeing up all that human-edible grain.
>
>
>--

Ah hell, just feed them Vegemite. ;)

BlueMule
Message no. 26
From: Theo Karmdeth <theo@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:13:44 GMT
On Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:55:05 -0600, you wrote:

>At 10:38 PM 1/21/99 -0500, Starjammer wrote:
>>Frankly, I find that doubtful. In fact, even before cattle ranching
>>becomes an indoor sport I'd imagine that you'd start off with =
manufactured
>>cattle feed synthesized directly from vat-produced nutrients in favor =
of
>>freeing up all that human-edible grain.
>Ah hell, just feed them Vegemite. ;)
>BlueMule

No. No. No. NO. NO!!!!

Enough with the Vegemite!

Theo Karmdeth.
(Quite embarrasing really. I've lost my HDD, just reinstalled. Can
someone send me my .sig file :)
Message no. 27
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:43:25 EST
In a message dated 1/21/99 9:12:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> >In SR206x I feel that the same technology used to grow replacement
> body
> >parts would be used to grow beef, pork, chicken, or fish.
>
> Good idea! This would make a good "Upper Middle Class Beef", though I
> think the rich and super-rich would still insist on having the real
> thing.

I think that this is totally DOBA... i hope that someone wrote it down into
the
gospel according to ... well... us.

andy mathews
Message no. 28
From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:58:56 -0500
Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET> writes:
> At 10:38 PM 1/21/99 -0500, Starjammer wrote:
> >Frankly, I find that doubtful. In fact, even before cattle ranching
> >becomes an indoor sport I'd imagine that you'd start off with manufactured
> >cattle feed synthesized directly from vat-produced nutrients in favor of
> >freeing up all that human-edible grain.

If you're going to jump to SR-day tech and synthesize some
nutrients, you may as well synthesize the vat-produced nutrients so
humans can eat it, form them into cakes, and call it "soyburger".
I'm still not convinced about the non-arable land argument
posted earlier, and I'd like to hear more. It's definitely the most
convincing I've seen for favoring meat, but land good enough to
support cattle is usually good enough to support some sort of food
crop. Could you describe the land in more detail?

> Ah hell, just feed them Vegemite. ;)

Oog. Speaking of which, are there stats anywhere for awakened
Drop Bears?

Mark
Message no. 29
From: Dave Post <caelric@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:05:52 -0800
At 01:58 AM 1/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
> If you're going to jump to SR-day tech and synthesize some
>nutrients, you may as well synthesize the vat-produced nutrients so
>humans can eat it, form them into cakes, and call it "soyburger".


Umm, isn't that what they do allready in 2060?

The real meat from real cows being only for the rich?

Dave
Message no. 30
From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 02:07:15 -0500
Dave Post <caelric@****.COM> writes:
> At 01:58 AM 1/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> > If you're going to jump to SR-day tech and synthesize some
> >nutrients, you may as well synthesize the vat-produced nutrients so
> >humans can eat it, form them into cakes, and call it "soyburger".
>
>
> Umm, isn't that what they do allready in 2060?
>
> The real meat from real cows being only for the rich?

Yep. :)

Mark
Message no. 31
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:11:07 +1000
Mark A Shieh writes:
> I'm still not convinced about the non-arable land argument
> posted earlier, and I'd like to hear more. It's definitely the most
> convincing I've seen for favoring meat, but land good enough to
> support cattle is usually good enough to support some sort of food
> crop. Could you describe the land in more detail?

The Australian outback. :) Dusty scrubland, with maybe 2 to 3 millimeters of
top soil (vs the 2 to 3 centimeters needed by most forms of cash crops).
Fully of wiry grasses, bushes, and trees that are adapted by evolution to
living in that sort of terrain. In terms of rainfall, most of these areas
are deserts, but water is available for the cattle via underground
aquifiers.

Most cattle stations are several hundred, if not thousands, of hectares in
size, supporting maybe 10 cows per hectare, I'd guess. Certainly not much
more. The cows usually roam pretty free, constrained from running away by
how far from water they're willing to get. Most such ranches aren't even
fenced, though northern ones are due to a desire to keep out the (now
exterminated) wild buffalo (due to a TB threat).

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 32
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:44:11 +0000
And verily, did Steven McCormick hastily scribble thusly...
|
|At 09:20 AM 1/22/99 +1000, Robert Watkins wrote:
|>(Mind you... we have cattle ranches as big as some European countries. :)
|>The largest cattle ranch in Australia is about the size of Texas)
|>
|>--
|
|Texas used to be a cattle ranch. :)

I suppose that explains the smell....

<ducks for cover>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 33
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:51:52 +0000
And verily, did Paul Gettle hastily scribble thusly...
|It takes, on average, approximately 16 pounds of edible grain and soy
|products to produce each pound of beef. This is where cattle farming
|becomes acreage intensive, in the growing of the cattle feed.

Ahhh, but growing food for cattle is... shall we say... self fertilising...
:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 34
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:54:01 +0000
And verily, did Paul Gettle hastily scribble thusly...
|I've read 16 to 1. Either way, it's hardly efficient, even if you do
|factor in a certain ammount of slaughterhouse 'recyclings' added into
|the diet.

They're not STILL doing that, are they?
3 words... B.S.E.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 35
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:43:18 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Paul Gettle wrote:
/
/ >BTW, I'm not a vegetarian and like to eat beef.
/
/ Ditto that. I'm a downright carnivore. In fact, Saturday evening, I
/ plan to dine on a 2 inch thick, 10 ounce King Cut Filet Mignon Steak,
/ hand cut from the center of the finest cornfed beef tenderloin, that
/ just arrived Fed Ex, packed in dry ice, shipped straight from the
/ stockyards in Omaha.

<drool>

/ >So, cattle take up space and produce waste and require resources
/
/ And not just cattle feed either. The ammount of water used in
/ production of the average cow is sufficient to float a destroyer
/ (something on average of 5,000 gallons of water per pound of beef
/ produced).

Oh yeah. I forgot about the water requirements.

/ >In SR206x I feel that the same technology used to grow replacement
/ body
/ >parts would be used to grow beef, pork, chicken, or fish.
/
/ Good idea! This would make a good "Upper Middle Class Beef", though I
/ think the rich and super-rich would still insist on having the real
/ thing.

<chuckle> You know how you hear stories about a family getting a live
turkey for their kids to raise, and then eat for Thanksgiving? I
suddenly have a sick image of a couple of rich corporate parents
getting their son a calf for his birthday with the expectations that he
will raise it and take it down to the slaughter house on his next
birthday so the entire family can have steak.

That could make for a fun run as the kid hires the runners to take his
cow to safety, or their hired by the parents to retrieve the kid and
his cow (who ran away with his cow to set it free).

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 36
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:55:25 -0500
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At 05:11 PM 1/22/99 +1000, Robert wrote:
>> I'm still not convinced about the non-arable land argument
>> posted earlier, and I'd like to hear more. It's definitely the
most
>> convincing I've seen for favoring meat, but land good enough to
>> support cattle is usually good enough to support some sort of food
>> crop. Could you describe the land in more detail?
>
>The Australian outback.
<<Snip Details>>

This would still be a viable means of actual beef production for
Shadowrun's time, though the location might have to be shifted to
another part of the world with similar harsh conditions. After all
isn't the SR outback supposed to be subjected to several unstable
magic-related conditions, and have an over-abundant population of
paranormal animals?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 37
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:03:19 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:54 AM 1/22/99 +0000, Andrew wrote:
>|I've read 16 to 1. Either way, it's hardly efficient, even if you do
>|factor in a certain ammount of slaughterhouse 'recyclings' added
into
>|the diet.
>
>They're not STILL doing that, are they?
>3 words... B.S.E.

There has been a move away from that, yes, but several people on the
list tried to use that as a counter to the "it takes huge tracts of
land to grow cattlefeed" arguement.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 38
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:18:16 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:43 AM 1/22/99 -0700, David B. wrote:
>/ >BTW, I'm not a vegetarian and like to eat beef.
>/
>/ Ditto that. I'm a downright carnivore.
<<Snip Description of my Birthday Steaks>>

><drool>

Sorry about that, I just got a little carried away. :)

<<More Snippage>>

><chuckle> You know how you hear stories about a family getting a
live
>turkey for their kids to raise, and then eat for Thanksgiving? I
>suddenly have a sick image of a couple of rich corporate parents
>getting their son a calf for his birthday with the expectations that
he
>will raise it and take it down to the slaughter house on his next
>birthday so the entire family can have steak.
>
>That could make for a fun run as the kid hires the runners to take
his
>cow to safety, or their hired by the parents to retrieve the kid and
>his cow (who ran away with his cow to set it free).

This is a rather disturbing idea for a run, on _several_ levels. I
like it! It's not the usual milk run.

If it were the parents doing the hiring though, I can just picture
some runner teams holding out for a cut of the beef as payment. (After
all, there's a lot more beef in a cow than just steaks for a family
dinner.)

"So, let me see if I get this right. In adition to the nuyen, you want
a new york strip each, and 2 pounds of ground chuck per person as an
early capture bonus?"

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 39
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 10:48:12 -0500
On 22 Jan 99, at 10:18, Paul Gettle wrote:

> This is a rather disturbing idea for a run, on _several_ levels. I
> like it! It's not the usual milk run.

Milk run?
LOL!

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 40
From: Nexx Many-Scars <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:35:10 -0600
----------
> From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
>
> That could make for a fun run as the kid hires the runners to take his
> cow to safety, or their hired by the parents to retrieve the kid and
> his cow (who ran away with his cow to set it free).

Real Fun: Make the kid an adept, using versions of Critter powers (like I
wrote up and still need to update to SR3) to control animals (including
his cow).

Anyone else see a low-speed chase down the middle of Seattle, the kid on
cowback, the runners trying to keep him from hurting himself (he's got to
have something that will keep them from just rushing him...)

*****
Nexx Many-Scars
aka Mark Hall
*
I used to say I was in a dry spell, but that's before I realized I didn't
have a clue as to what rain was.
Message no. 41
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: AW: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 21:19:25 +0100
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]Im
> Auftrag von Paul Gettle
> Gesendet am: Freitag, 22. Januar 1999 1603
> An: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Betreff: Re: Got Beef?
>

<snip>

> There has been a move away from that, yes, but several people on the
> list tried to use that as a counter to the "it takes huge tracts of
> land to grow cattlefeed" arguement.

I don't think that this stopped. I mean, why not feed it to
other animals when you ship the most of it to your favorite butcher?
It is now unlawful to use BSE-infected cows as diet-addition.


> -- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)

This refers to the limited edition SR3 hardback?

#361, are my neighbors around?

ArcLight
ICQ 14322211
NO ONE IS SAFE FROM A MICROWAVE
Message no. 42
From: Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:48:43 -0600
:<chuckle> You know how you hear stories about a family getting a live
:turkey for their kids to raise, and then eat for Thanksgiving? I
:suddenly have a sick image of a couple of rich corporate parents
:getting their son a calf for his birthday with the expectations that he
:will raise it and take it down to the slaughter house on his next
:birthday so the entire family can have steak.
:
:That could make for a fun run as the kid hires the runners to take his
:cow to safety, or their hired by the parents to retrieve the kid and
:his cow (who ran away with his cow to set it free).


Just watch out: if the kid sells the cow, he might get magic beans
that create a gateway to the metaplane of giants!

Mongoose
Message no. 43
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 08:54:01 +1000
>And verily, did Paul Gettle hastily scribble thusly...
>|I've read 16 to 1. Either way, it's hardly efficient, even if you do
>|factor in a certain ammount of slaughterhouse 'recyclings' added into
>|the diet.
>
>They're not STILL doing that, are they?
>3 words... B.S.E.

<thwap> That's three letters, not words, you nit! (Bovine Spongiform
Encephalopathy, I believe... or it could be Encephalitus.)

Lady Jestyr

"A true beanie should have a propellor on the top." -- Terry Pratchett
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 44
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:06:51 EST
In a message dated 99-01-22 14:38:13 EST, you write:

> > From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
> >
> > That could make for a fun run as the kid hires the runners to take his
> > cow to safety, or their hired by the parents to retrieve the kid and
> > his cow (who ran away with his cow to set it free).
>
> Real Fun: Make the kid an adept, using versions of Critter powers (like I
> wrote up and still need to update to SR3) to control animals (including
> his cow).

Alternate twist.... The kid is a hot deck, and has diverted enough money from
Dad's spending accounts to offer the runners a like amount (or even double) if
they help him and the cow escape... with an additional runner group out there
who heard about some gold on the hoof who want to take it away from the kid
and take it to the slaughter house and get the nuyen for it.....

--
Starrngr -- Now with an UPDATED webpage:
Ranger HQ
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm">;
HTTP://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm</A>;

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they call
you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 45
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:52:04 +0000
And verily, did Lady Jestyr hastily scribble thusly...
|
|>And verily, did Paul Gettle hastily scribble thusly...
|>|I've read 16 to 1. Either way, it's hardly efficient, even if you do
|>|factor in a certain ammount of slaughterhouse 'recyclings' added into
|>|the diet.
|>
|>They're not STILL doing that, are they?
|>3 words... B.S.E.
|
|<thwap> That's three letters, not words, you nit! (Bovine Spongiform
|Encephalopathy, I believe... or it could be Encephalitus.)

Actually, it is 3 words, as you just pointed out by saying them.
But I'm just too lazy to type the whole thing...

:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 46
From: Dallandra's Futures <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:13:27 GMT
Dallandra read....
>
> > In SR206x I feel that the same technology used to grow replacement body
> > parts would be used to grow beef, pork, chicken, or fish. You don't
> > have to worry about being kind to the animal. You don't have to rely
> > on the animals digestive system to inefficiently break down food. You
> > can skip that an provide the vat meat with pure nutrients (which can be
> > extracted from a much more efficient plant than corn, perhaps kelp or
> > algea). You can put the production facility right next to the packing
> > facility and eliminate transportation. All in all it would be a much
> > more efficient operation.
> Don't forget whale farming either :-)

So, (and this is my last thought on the subject!) if we are going to
be vat growing stuff, why limit it to chicken and stuff? What about
tiger, lion, elephant... you could have a whole new range of
speciality foods. Dodo burger anyone?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!
__________________________________________________

All year round Email address: Mistress_Dalla@*******.com
Website http://come.to/Dallandra
Message no. 47
From: Dallandra's Futures <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:15:20 GMT
Dallandra read...

> Texas used to be a cattle ranch. :)

Is that where you lovely Americans breed the likes of Jennie McCarthy
and Roseanne?

Just a thought ;)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!
__________________________________________________

All year round Email address: Mistress_Dalla@*******.com
Website http://come.to/Dallandra
Message no. 48
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:12:14 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Dallandra's Futures wrote:
/
/ So, (and this is my last thought on the subject!) if we are going to
/ be vat growing stuff, why limit it to chicken and stuff? What about
/ tiger, lion, elephant... you could have a whole new range of
/ speciality foods. Dodo burger anyone?

...I don't know. I could see people extolling the flavor of vat grown
beef and chicken and saying that it tastes just like the real thing.
But I suspect that the type of people that would want and could afford
to eat something exotic would want the real thing.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 49
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:39:02 -0500
On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, David Buehrer wrote:

> For the mere cost of a Thaum, Dallandra's Futures wrote:
> /
> / So, (and this is my last thought on the subject!) if we are going to
> / be vat growing stuff, why limit it to chicken and stuff? What about
> / tiger, lion, elephant... you could have a whole new range of
> / speciality foods. Dodo burger anyone?
>
> ...I don't know. I could see people extolling the flavor of vat grown
> beef and chicken and saying that it tastes just like the real thing.
> But I suspect that the type of people that would want and could afford
> to eat something exotic would want the real thing.
>

Hmmm . . . Personally, I could see vat grown becoming the luxury item.
"The most tender steak you'll ever have"(tm). Since the beef was vat
grown, their would not have been any exercising of the muscle, leading to
a very tender flesh (even more so than the tenderloin).

I guess the real answer would be whichever one was more expensive (vat
grown or "natural") would be sonsidered the luxury item and people would
still debate which is best.

- Kama
Message no. 50
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:40:10 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Mongoose wrote:
/
/ :<chuckle> You know how you hear stories about a family getting a live
/ :turkey for their kids to raise, and then eat for Thanksgiving? I
/ :suddenly have a sick image of a couple of rich corporate parents
/ :getting their son a calf for his birthday with the expectations that he
/ :will raise it and take it down to the slaughter house on his next
/ :birthday so the entire family can have steak.
/ :
/ :That could make for a fun run as the kid hires the runners to take his
/ :cow to safety, or their hired by the parents to retrieve the kid and
/ :his cow (who ran away with his cow to set it free).
/
/ Just watch out: if the kid sells the cow, he might get magic beans
/ that create a gateway to the metaplane of giants!

My first thought was, "<g> um, no." However, a second thought quickly
followed (my mind is like that :)

What if the run starts out simply (runners hired to find kid and his
cow) and it quickly degenerates into a bad parody of all the famous
fairy tales on the metaplanes starting with Jack and the Beanstalk?

What other fairy tales could be incorporated as the characters chase
the kid through the metaplanes?

Gotta have: Hansel and Grettle, Little Red Riding Hood, The Three
Little Pigs.

And does anyone have any ideas for the end of the adventure?

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 51
From: Dallandra <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:46:56 GMT
> Hmmm . . . Personally, I could see vat grown becoming the luxury item.
> "The most tender steak you'll ever have"(tm). Since the beef was vat
> grown, their would not have been any exercising of the muscle, leading to
> a very tender flesh (even more so than the tenderloin).

"Even Better Than The Real Thing"

I think there's a point here. I also suppose that vat grown meat
would be 'vegetarian' to an extent.

Dalla x x x
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!
__________________________________________________

All year round Email address: Mistress_Dalla@*******.com
Website http://come.to/Dallandra
Message no. 52
From: Dallandra <bz701@*********.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Got Beef?
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 14:48:38 GMT
>
> And does anyone have any ideas for the end of the adventure?

The small child is eaten by a troll who lives under a bridge?
The runners fall asleep for a hundred years?

Etc....

Dalla x x x
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Welcome to Dallandra's World. Now bend over!
__________________________________________________

All year round Email address: Mistress_Dalla@*******.com
Website http://come.to/Dallandra

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Got Beef?, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!