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Message no. 1
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:21:18 +0000
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Stephen Delear wrote:

> > Gradual initiation is the process of selecting the metamagic abilities one
> > at a time with each level in initation instead of them all coming as soon as
>
> Basically the result is that players race to get grade 6 initiation.
> Keep in mind that the only initiate power that isn't hugely powerfull is
> anchoring (and maybe masking). Everything else is so usefull that it
> isn't even funny.
I'm not keen on the idea of one meta power at each grade, however I would
be in favour of a twist on this idea:

At the stated cost of Initiation 1 power is given, say shielding as this
is the power closest to one already used i.e. Spell Defence. To gain the
further powers an additional cost of karma and additional training is
required say (Current Initiate Grade+6) x 1 (x.5 for group "initiation",
ordeals not allowed for this).

However it would not be required for a magician to learn all meta magic
powers before gaining a grade. So you could have a Grade 4 Initiate with
only Shielding, and a Grade 1 Initiate with Shielding, Centring,
Anchouring and Masking.

Now whether you say that each power has to be upgraded with each
initiation is another matter -I would suggest no with each further
initiation he automatically 'upgrades' the power as part of the whole
initiation. However if the mage goes to Grade 4 before learning Masking,
then to learn that power the karma cost is higher than if he had
bought it at Grade 0, but then again he is bringing it up to Grade 4 level
power at the same time.

It maight alos be good to suggest that the number of metamagic powers a
mage has cannot be greater than his Magical Theory skill. This will
encourage Magical Theory to be increased along with Initiation Grades -how
many mages have I seen where Sorcery and Magical Theory haven't changed,
instead karma has gone straight into Initiation?

This gradual initiation would also make reaching full Grade 0 and moving
between grades a much more slower and more realistic appraoch.

In my game I have already increased the Initiation cost to (Desired Grade
+6) x 5 as using teh rules as written it could be as cheap to iniate to
grade 0 and get all the cool metamagic as it would cost the samurai to
improve Firearms from 6 to 7, getting an extra dice to roll.

I also say Initiation grade cannot be higher then Magcial Theory -and
thats basic magical theory, not Hermatic concentration or such like (hey
your shielding has got to work against Shamanic magic as well).

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 2
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:38:14 +1100
> It maight alos be good to suggest that the number of metamagic powers a
> mage has cannot be greater than his Magical Theory skill. This will
> encourage Magical Theory to be increased along with Initiation Grades -how
> many mages have I seen where Sorcery and Magical Theory haven't changed,
> instead karma has gone straight into Initiation?

And WHY do people do that? Let's face it, once you're an initiate, you get
all the cool noodly things (unless your GM uses gradual initiation). All
it gives you, really, is the chance to cast higher-force spells for mental
drain. And *I'd* rather take Physical drain any day - Resist Pain spells
work agains Physical damage but not Mental damage, and it's easy to Treat
a mage. Say you take a M physical drain. One treat spell later, presto,
you're probably good as new. If it were Mental drain, you'd have a
horribubble headache for hours and not be able to do anything about it.

*sigh* So, unless you're a Phys Ad or Phys Mage (where Initiations do you
the world of good), there's not really much point!

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:48:29 -0700
<snip, reasons for mages NOT to initiate>

> *sigh* So, unless you're a Phys Ad or Phys Mage (where Initiations do you
> the world of good), there's not really much point!

Garth, (my bros grade 10 inititate) with his MR of 14 can do absolutely
AMAZING things with his centering skill just for one. Centering vs.
penalties is incredible, cause you SUBTRACT your initiate grade from the
TN! Enchanting, like making *orichalcum*, the TN is lowered by your
Magic Rating! There are TONS of reasons for a mage to initiate, above
and beyond the initial getting of metamagic! (sorry, my 2 yen)

-Tom-
Message no. 4
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 00:46:20 -0800
> Garth, (my bros grade 10 inititate) with his MR of 14 can do absolutely
> AMAZING things with his centering skill just for one. Centering vs.
> penalties is incredible, cause you SUBTRACT your initiate grade from the
> TN! Enchanting, like making *orichalcum*, the TN is lowered by your
> Magic Rating!

ARG!!! Where do I find this rule?

--
Dvixen/Snow Leopard dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
Rule misser extra-ordinaire
Message no. 5
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:51:36 GMT
The Digital Mage writes
>
> It maight alos be good to suggest that the number of metamagic powers a
> mage has cannot be greater than his Magical Theory skill. This will
> encourage Magical Theory to be increased along with Initiation Grades -how
> many mages have I seen where Sorcery and Magical Theory haven't changed,
> instead karma has gone straight into Initiation?
>
very common, simple masking spell locks is by far the most useful
thing out there.

> In my game I have already increased the Initiation cost to (Desired Grade
> +6) x 5 as using teh rules as written it could be as cheap to iniate to
> grade 0 and get all the cool metamagic as it would cost the samurai to
> improve Firearms from 6 to 7, getting an extra dice to roll.
>
Long since noted, however mages have so much to spend karma on that
if you increase the costs you are going to have to hand out buckets
of the stuff, or keep the sammies money under strict control, mages
eat karma, mundanes money.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 11:29:07 GMT
The Jestyr writes
>
> *sigh* So, unless you're a Phys Ad or Phys Mage (where Initiations do you
> the world of good), there's not really much point!
>
there are a number of noteable bonuses to grade.

The primary one is masking locks, these are magicians answers to
wired reflexes, muscle augmentation etc. Unless you want them
grounded through regularly get them masked, this is very nice but
very expensive.

Dispelling is grade limited.
You get two new dice pools and astral reac bonuses equal to grade,
grade 3 with astral percpt/project for an astral pool is 6 more
shielding dice, very handy!

Centring vs target number penalties gets grade off the TN, which is
very useful!

however as grade 5 will set you back around 100 Karma (assuming a
group and ordeals at about 4 of the grades) it gets hideously
expensive. That would buy enough spells to have one for every
occasion or a new skill at 6 and one at 7 or send a skill form 6 to
11!
And these days with enhanced articulation customised weapons etc
several bonus dice to firearms without karma is easy!

Mark
Message no. 7
From: Silvio Sampietro <cyric@*****.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:50:00 MET
At 00:46 06.12.1996 -0800, you wrote:
>> Garth, (my bros grade 10 inititate) with his MR of 14 can do absolutely
>> AMAZING things with his centering skill just for one. Centering vs.
>> penalties is incredible, cause you SUBTRACT your initiate grade from the
>> TN! Enchanting, like making *orichalcum*, the TN is lowered by your
>> Magic Rating!
>
>ARG!!! Where do I find this rule?
>
The Grimoir, Chapter Metamagic, topic Centering vs. Penalties
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------------
----+
|Silvio Sampietro | |
| | Believe it or not: Shamans do it better!|
|cyric@*****.netsurf.de | |
| | -Jimmy Jinx |
+-----------------------+---------------------------------------------------
----+
Message no. 8
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:31:56 -0500
> The Digital Mage writes
> >
> > It maight alos be good to suggest that the number of metamagic powers a
> > mage has cannot be greater than his Magical Theory skill. This will
> > encourage Magical Theory to be increased along with Initiation Grades -how
> > many mages have I seen where Sorcery and Magical Theory haven't changed,
> > instead karma has gone straight into Initiation?
> >
> very common, simple masking spell locks is by far the most useful
> thing out there.
>
> > In my game I have already increased the Initiation cost to (Desired Grade
> > +6) x 5 as using teh rules as written it could be as cheap to iniate to
> > grade 0 and get all the cool metamagic as it would cost the samurai to
> > improve Firearms from 6 to 7, getting an extra dice to roll.
> >
> Long since noted, however mages have so much to spend karma on that
> if you increase the costs you are going to have to hand out buckets
> of the stuff, or keep the sammies money under strict control, mages
> eat karma, mundanes money.
>
I agree, mages and phys adepts already burn karma like crazy. Ever
checked out the karmamic cost for a good ally spirit. Or bonding a foci
of any power. If I were playing with you, I would never play a mage.
Mages burn karma to fast anyway just trying to learn spells and skills.
Now you doubled or even tripled the cost for initiation. SUre, it is easy
to get to initiate grade 0. How easy is it too get to initiate level 6?
Under the normal system, assuming lone initiation without ordeals, 189
karma. Under your system, 315 karma. Hmm...one of the guys in my group
has been playing the same character for three years and he just barely
passed 300 total karma. So you have made it so if the mage wants to
initaite to any level, he won't improve any skills or get any new spells.
I thought that was the opposite of what your aim was. If you want your
player's characters to be more rounded and more skilled in all of the
magical arts rather than just initiating, you can do that. Just say when
they try to initiate again "It feels that your lack of understanding in
the theory of magical manipulation is preventing you from gaining further
insight into the manipulation of metaplanar energies." They will get the
point. But by raising the cost of initiation, all you have done is make
the magical characters much more difficult to run. Besides, its kind of
weird to compare mages initiation to sams skill raising. There not the
same. Sams get to improve themselves with bioware and cyberware. Mages
can't without extreme cost to themselves. Are you going to double the
price of cyberware and bioware to balance out the sams with the mages? If
you disagree with 0 initaite mages getting access to all of the metaplanar
powers, don't let them. Give them to them one at a time or force they to
go research them or travel deep into the metaplanes and learn them from
great and ancient spirits or what ever. Personally, I always thought it
was stupid that when phy adepts first initiate, they basically get zippo
for the karma that they burned. Consiquently, all phy adepts in our group
start at initiate grade 0. Does it affect game play. No. All it does is
allows them to see some good for the karma they had to spend to initiate.

In summary, I agree that players often initiate too much to the expence of
other skills, but I think that attempting to stop this buy raising the
cost of initiation is counter-productive, and rather devestating to the
magical characters...

"And that is all I have to say about that..."
Forrest Gump
Message no. 9
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:37:31 +0000
On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

> And WHY do people do that? Let's face it, once you're an initiate, you get
> all the cool noodly things (unless your GM uses gradual initiation). All
> it gives you, really, is the chance to cast higher-force spells for mental
> drain. And *I'd* rather take Physical drain any day - Resist Pain spells
> work agains Physical damage but not Mental damage, and it's easy to Treat
> a mage. Say you take a M physical drain. One treat spell later, presto,
> you're probably good as new. If it were Mental drain, you'd have a
> horribubble headache for hours and not be able to do anything about it.

I think that is too much game mechanic game player thinking. I'm pretty
darn sure any mage -not player- would prefer mental drain. Besides, with
all that physical drain you could very well go into overflow and die
rather tahn just be knocked out, and if your GM has rules for blood loss
well then even taking a Moderate physical drain could end up bad.

Besides, taking physical drain regularly will no doubt leave the mage
covered in lots of scars -over the entire body...


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 10
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:41:00 +0000
On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Mark Steedman wrote:

> Long since noted, however mages have so much to spend karma on that
> if you increase the costs you are going to have to hand out buckets
> of the stuff, or keep the sammies money under strict control, mages
> eat karma, mundanes money.
Yes but it seems that in my experience, initiates become too common by
far, with many players not even learning new spells, or improving their
skills before initiatiing. I personally don't allow just a karma spend to
initiate -hell I say for the first initiation a teacjer must be sort out.
Plus not all mages I believe would know the specifics of metamagic.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:21:10 GMT
The Digital Mage writes
>
> Yes but it seems that in my experience, initiates become too common by
> far, with many players not even learning new spells, or improving their
> skills before initiatiing. I personally don't allow just a karma spend to
> initiate -hell I say for the first initiation a teacjer must be sort out.
> Plus not all mages I believe would know the specifics of metamagic.
>
I most certainly have been requiring folks to find out about
initiation from some source or other, what it does is becomming far
too common in the source books (ok so information like that flies
round the planet fast enough now, let alone in 60 years time). Often
enough PC's have to pursuade an NPC to tell them and you don't give
away something that hands out an advantage to folks you don't like.
Often also they have to join an NPC's magical group, which means at
the end of the day an NPC is boss <gm grins nicely>, oh what do you
mean saying no will break a stricture, oh frag!

Mark
Message no. 12
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:36:08 GMT
Midn Daniel O Fredrikson writes

First, three deep is the Digital mages comments, two deep was written
by me, onlt you answered it as if you though he wrote the lot.
Hopefully i can sort it out so its understandable.

> > The Digital Mage writes
> > >
> > > It maight alos be good to suggest that the number of metamagic powers a
> > > mage has cannot be greater than his Magical Theory skill. This will
> > > encourage Magical Theory to be increased along with Initiation Grades -how
> > > many mages have I seen where Sorcery and Magical Theory haven't changed,
> > > instead karma has gone straight into Initiation?
> > >
> > very common, simple masking spell locks is by far the most useful
> > thing out there.
> >
> > > In my game I have already increased the Initiation cost to (Desired Grade
> > > +6) x 5 as using teh rules as written it could be as cheap to iniate to
> > > grade 0 and get all the cool metamagic as it would cost the samurai to
> > > improve Firearms from 6 to 7, getting an extra dice to roll.
> > >
> > Long since noted, however mages have so much to spend karma on that
> > if you increase the costs you are going to have to hand out buckets
> > of the stuff, or keep the sammies money under strict control, mages
> > eat karma, mundanes money.
> >
> I agree, mages and phys adepts already burn karma like crazy. Ever
> checked out the karmamic cost for a good ally spirit. Or bonding a foci
> of any power. If I were playing with you, I would never play a mage.
I assume you are refering to the Digital mages comments here, not to
mine because i agree with how fast they burn karma.

> Mages burn karma to fast anyway just trying to learn spells and skills.
> Now you doubled or even tripled the cost for initiation. SUre, it is easy
> to get to initiate grade 0. How easy is it too get to initiate level 6?
> Under the normal system, assuming lone initiation without ordeals, 189
> karma. Under your system, 315 karma. Hmm...one of the guys in my group
> has been playing the same character for three years and he just barely
> passed 300 total karma. So you have made it so if the mage wants to
> initaite to any level, he won't improve any skills or get any new spells.
I'll take your figures, that for what the Digital mage suggested. i
can see the point initiation is not in itself expensive but if you've
noted the number of 4th grade initiates in the older FASA adventures
that get killed by a stiff breeze because they don't have the skills,
spells or armour to back it up (just lots of foci the players droll
all over as they run to the talismonger and 100's K yen profit!)

> But by raising the cost of initiation, all you have done is make
> the magical characters much more difficult to run. Besides, its kind of
> weird to compare mages initiation to sams skill raising. There not the
> same. Sams get to improve themselves with bioware and cyberware. Mages
> can't without extreme cost to themselves. Are you going to double the
> price of cyberware and bioware to balance out the sams with the mages?
Further.
Initiation is very nice but in and of itself it gives zero offensive
power and only improves your magical defenses, as i've said to many
people many times, so hes got blank dice shielding, well it doesn't
stop bullets <he he he>.

> If
> you disagree with 0 initaite mages getting access to all of the metaplanar
> powers, don't let them. Give them to them one at a time or force they to
> go research them or travel deep into the metaplanes and learn them from
> great and ancient spirits or what ever.
basically you're suggesting max grade = magical theory or some such?

> Personally, I always thought it
> was stupid that when phy adepts first initiate, they basically get zippo
> for the karma that they burned. Consiquently, all phy adepts in our group
> start at initiate grade 0. Does it affect game play. No. All it does is
> allows them to see some good for the karma they had to spend to initiate.
>
They get access to buying centering and they get masking (IMHO the
best power a runner can get - the ability to tell lies on the astral
plane)
No its not good but then all adepts get a lot less out of initiation
than do full magicians the difference in only putting a B not A
priority in magic in the first place.

> In summary, I agree that players often initiate too much to the expence of
> other skills, but I think that attempting to stop this buy raising the
> cost of initiation is counter-productive, and rather devestating to the
> magical characters...
If you absolutely have to you could use a variation of the rule in
Tir-Na-nog that path magivians have to put a minimum 70% of karma in
path skills and attributes and say max 30% of karma on initiation, i
have before tried saving for it and find that spending more than
about 45% to half your karma on initiation leaves the character too
lacking in other areas, if theres one thing that makes initiation
look cheap its the skill web. Even my post 300 Kamra PC is only grade
5 and where i'm going to find 24 i feel like spending on grade 6 from
i just don't know!
And thats despite te fact i could seriously use the masking for +4
reac to make a dent on the sammies lead in initiative!

>
> "And that is all I have to say about that..."
> Forrest Gump
>

Mark
Message no. 13
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:37:35 -0700
On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Dvixen wrote:

> > Garth, (my bros grade 10 inititate) with his MR of 14 can do absolutely
> > AMAZING things with his centering skill just for one. Centering vs.
> > penalties is incredible, cause you SUBTRACT your initiate grade from the
> > TN! Enchanting, like making *orichalcum*, the TN is lowered by your
> > Magic Rating!
>
> ARG!!! Where do I find this rule?

Centering vs Penalties : pg 44, grimmy

"Use the same target number for this centering test as for the magic
success test, using all penalties applicable but SUBTRACTING the
magicians grade from the modified target number"

Making orichalcum, : pg 23, grimmy

"<snip> The target number is 10 minus the alchemist's magic rating."

-Tom-
Message no. 14
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:28:29 -0800
> Centring vs target number penalties gets grade off the TN, which is
> very useful!

Okay. I went looking through my Grimoire, and I couldn't find this rule
*anywhere*. (Second edition, first printing)

It is, however, in my First edition book.

--
Dvixen/Snow Leopard dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 15
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:43:19 +0000
On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Midn Daniel O Fredrikson wrote:

> I agree, mages and phys adepts already burn karma like crazy. Ever
> checked out the karmamic cost for a good ally spirit. Or bonding a foci
> of any power. If I were playing with you, I would never play a mage.
Well my intention was to prompt players to step back and say "hmm
initiation is rather expensive karma wise, I could maybe become more
powerful sooner by just trying to learn more spells, increasing my sorcery
skill or bonding a foci". Maube its just my experience but players seem to
want to go straight for initiation and don't get the power foci (I don't
think I've actually GMed a game where a mage had one), ally spirits,
improved magical skills, and more spells.

> Mages burn karma to fast anyway just trying to learn spells and skills.
If this was occuring in my game then I may not be feeling it necessary to
increase the karma cost.

> Now you doubled or even tripled the cost for initiation. SUre, it is easy
> to get to initiate grade 0. How easy is it too get to initiate level 6?
Grade 6 initiation is IMHO _extremely_ difficult to get to, these are the
sort of magicians who have been studying magic for many years.

> Under the normal system, assuming lone initiation without ordeals, 189
> karma. Under your system, 315 karma. Hmm...one of the guys in my group
> has been playing the same character for three years and he just barely
> passed 300 total karma.
A magician going from not being an initiate to being a Grade 4 or 5 in
just 3 years is IMHO something incredibly rare -assuming game time equates
to real time. To do that I would suggest that you'd have to be studying
almost exclusively on the magical arts and under the constant tutelage of
a very powerful magician.

> So you have made it so if the mage wants to
> initaite to any level, he won't improve any skills or get any new spells.
> I thought that was the opposite of what your aim was.
Like I said my intention is to prompt teh players to think of other ways
to make their magician powerful.


> If you want your
> player's characters to be more rounded and more skilled in all of the
> magical arts rather than just initiating, you can do that. Just say when
> they try to initiate again "It feels that your lack of understanding in
> the theory of magical manipulation is preventing you from gaining further
> insight into the manipulation of metaplanar energies." They will get the
> point.

This is good for people who have a strong idea about their character and
their role, however its not usually these players who need the prompting
-in my experience.

> But by raising the cost of initiation, all you have done is make
> the magical characters much more difficult to run.

You don't have to be an initiate to run a magical character, even
beginning magicians are incredibly powerful.

> Besides, its kind of
> weird to compare mages initiation to sams skill raising. There not the
> same. Sams get to improve themselves with bioware and cyberware. Mages
> can't without extreme cost to themselves. Are you going to double the
> price of cyberware and bioware to balance out the sams with the mages?

Well again this all comes down to my view on the atmosphere I want -I keep
teh money at a low stage as well, so sammies with Wired 2 aren't all that
common.

> If
> you disagree with 0 initaite mages getting access to all of the metaplanar
> powers, don't let them.
Hence my suggestion of an alternate gradual initiation process allowing
players to choose how fast they go up in grades, traded off by the number
of meta magic powers they learn.

> Give them to them one at a time or force they to
> go research them or travel deep into the metaplanes and learn them from
> great and ancient spirits or what ever.
I do this too and I always try to get across teh fact that initaition
despite the literature written by academic mages is still a relatively
vague subject area and characters wouldn't know the specifics of it all.

> In summary, I agree that players often initiate too much to the expence of
> other skills, but I think that attempting to stop this buy raising the
> cost of initiation is counter-productive, and rather devestating to the
> magical characters...

Maybe your campaign has a much higher magic focus, or a high threat level
where you are constantly up against initiates and teh like. My game
however whilst still threatening keeps things low powered and so upping
teh initation cost is hardly 'devastating' to magical characters.

I'm just trying to prevent initiates becoming trivialised through being
seen and defeated every session.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 16
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 10:55:30 -0700
> > Under the normal system, assuming lone initiation without ordeals, 189
> > karma. Under your system, 315 karma. Hmm...one of the guys in my group
> > has been playing the same character for three years and he just barely
> > passed 300 total karma.

> A magician going from not being an initiate to being a Grade 4 or 5 in
> just 3 years is IMHO something incredibly rare -assuming game time equates
> to real time. To do that I would suggest that you'd have to be studying
> almost exclusively on the magical arts and under the constant tutelage of
> a very powerful magician.

Garth, my brother's grade 10 hermetic, (~with 450 total karma), was
played for 9 years of game time ('50-'58) and 3 times a week for two
years, (4-5 times a week during summers and x-mas). It *can* be done, it
just takes a long time and a lot o' karma.

> > So you have made it so if the mage wants to
> > initaite to any level, he won't improve any skills or get any new spells.
> > I thought that was the opposite of what your aim was.

Yup. While Garthy-boy was busy initiating, my Pistol kept going up and
up. (Having pistols-14 is REALLY nice when you can hardly ever use
anything heavier than a HP.)

> Like I said my intention is to prompt teh players to think of other ways
> to make their magician powerful.

There are lots of other ways, just none quite the same as initiation.
Sammies get there alpha/beta toys, there new guns, whatever, and mages
get initiation and metamagic, etc...

> > If you want your
> > player's characters to be more rounded and more skilled in all of the
> > magical arts rather than just initiating, you can do that. Just say when
> > they try to initiate again "It feels that your lack of understanding in
> > the theory of magical manipulation is preventing you from gaining further
> > insight into the manipulation of metaplanar energies." They will get the
> > point.

Do something like make them raise one of their magical skills: (Sorcery,
Mag Theory, etc.) every time they initiate. That's what we did. And He
couldn't raise the same one twice in a row, to count for initiating, either.

> > But by raising the cost of initiation, all you have done is make
> > the magical characters much more difficult to run.
>
> You don't have to be an initiate to run a magical character, even
> beginning magicians are incredibly powerful.

Yeah, but mages do get dicked on the karma... (No, I am NOT trying to
start up that thread again!!) Besides, it has ben my experience that
mages don't get so much more POWERFUL by initiating, so much as they get
more VERSATILE.

> > Besides, its kind of
> > weird to compare mages initiation to sams skill raising. There not the
> > same. Sams get to improve themselves with bioware and cyberware. Mages
> > can't without extreme cost to themselves. Are you going to double the
> > price of cyberware and bioware to balance out the sams with the mages?

Exactly-

> Well again this all comes down to my view on the atmosphere I want -I keep
> the money at a low stage as well, so sammies with Wired 2 aren't all that
> common.

How 'bout this: instead of raising the costs for initiating, simply make
a group virtually unavailable. Make you mage self-initiate. That shoudl
solve your cost probs quick.

> > If
> > you disagree with 0 initaite mages getting access to all of the metaplanar
> > powers, don't let them.

> Hence my suggestion of an alternate gradual initiation process allowing
> players to choose how fast they go up in grades, traded off by the number
> of meta magic powers they learn.

IMO, getting all the metamagic powers at Grade 0, ISN"T that powerful...
most of the powers require other skills or are dependent on you grade to
work well... (No I'm not starting that thread either!)


> > Give them to them one at a time or force they to
> > go research them or travel deep into the metaplanes and learn them from
> > great and ancient spirits or what ever.

> I do this too and I always try to get across teh fact that initaition
> despite the literature written by academic mages is still a relatively
> vague subject area and characters wouldn't know the specifics of it all.

(See skill raising, above)

<snip>. As a final comment, instead of raising the cost of initiating,
try making other skills so vitally important, that the mage has to
pick them up instead of initiating. We did this in my group, and Garth
picked up Stealth(6) eventually, and athletics, and a couple of others...

-Tom-
Message no. 17
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:11:25 +0000
On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Robert Pendergrast (Tom) wrote:

> Garth, my brother's grade 10 hermetic, (~with 450 total karma), was
> played for 9 years of game time ('50-'58) and 3 times a week for two
> years, (4-5 times a week during summers and x-mas). It *can* be done, it
> just takes a long time and a lot o' karma.
Now thats the sort of thing I'd be looking for, over a 9 year period to
gain the higer initiate grades. Although Grade 10 would be way to powerful
for my campaigns -hell in the Tir na nOg groups the highest initiate grade
is about 10 or so.

> How 'bout this: instead of raising the costs for initiating, simply make
> a group virtually unavailable. Make you mage self-initiate. That shoudl
> solve your cost probs quick.
The cost isn't my problem its the fact that players, having read the
Grimoire etc know all the initiate stuff and go straight for those powers.
By having initiates so common amongst the mages that are played teh whole
idea of initiate IMHO becomes trivialised to some degree -though as a GM I
do try to prevent this from occuring through roleplaying as well.

I have mangaged to get the fear of magic back into my players on
occassion, for example when they faced off against an Aztech magic crew
sent to obtain an ED grimoire which the players were bidding for as well,
I had one of the crew (a Conjuror adept) call on a Blood Spirit.

I described the scene as the woman at a nearby table (they were in a club)
suddenly started convulsing, then she started to bleed from her nose and
ears. The blood continued to literallu pour out and eventually teh woman
ceased convulsing, dead. The blood gathered and began to rear up and used
the engulf power on a player (despite blood spirits not having that power
:) The fear on the players face as his charcter began choking on teh
blood and drowning in teh fast congealing mass was beautiful....

Thats the sort of attitude to magic I want regarding Initiates, ANY grade
initiate should be feared, but thats hard to do when teh mage in teh group
is already Grade 4!

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 18
From: Stephen Delear <shadow@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 21:37:24 -0600
In my experince the reason so many players go for initiation instead of
more logical choices (higher sorcery skill for a larger magic pool, more
spells) is that a magicians role on the the team is fairly well defined
and limited. A magician needs to know manabolt, an area of effect combat
spell doing physical damage (even though in the case of hard to controll
area effects studn damage makes more sence) and either heal or treat.
Also most magicians have bullet barrier. The mage basically fills one of
two roles either providing magical firepower or astral support.

Howusefull this type of mage is depends on how your game runs. If it's a
gun battle where the average body count from a run is in the double
digits then this type of mage is very usefull. If the games based more
around out thinking the security system or social interaction then this
type of mage is almost useless.

For example I have four magic users in my game and one rigger.

The teams roles brake down something like this.

A full magician combat owl shaman (same role as a street sams in most groups)

An illusion adept responsible for keeping the team from being noticed.

An Earth adept mainly to handle such things as levitations and door
airlock spells.

A full magicain mage who mainly provides astral support.

The rigger runs the drones who provide a birds eye overview of the area
and serve for some extra heavy firepower when the drek really hits the fan.


With a team this diverse most of my magicians only have about 5 spells
they make heavy use of and I found that the magicians found initiation
more usefull then learning new spells and the like. The solution was a
complete shift of the teams missions from break in get the goods and get
out mostly unnoticed to more social interaction. When spells optimized
to a get in and get out quick philosophy turned out mostly useless the
players started looking for new spells in fairly short order. Of course
with less magicians all that would be needed is to put a slightly higher
infases on magic then the complete change in game style I had to use.

SteveD
Message no. 19
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 14:16:55 +0000
On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Stephen Delear wrote:

<snip bit about mages with a few choice 'combat oriented' spells>
> Howusefull this type of mage is depends on how your game runs. If it's a
> gun battle where the average body count from a run is in the double
> digits then this type of mage is very usefull. If the games based more
> around out thinking the security system or social interaction then this
> type of mage is almost useless.

Exactly! SPells like Magic Fingers (opening locks of windows from the
outside), Physical Mask, levitate item etc are all useful for non combat
situations.

One mage I have - Cinder - is an ex firewoman mage having such spells as
Detect life, Barrier, Levitate Person and a home grown Water Stream spell
(damaging manipulation doing Light stun damage with elemental effects of
water -despite this not being allowed with Light damage spells- and its
sustained :)

She won't even be considering initiating for a very long while (if ever)
she has too many problems hiding from the corp who forced her into the
shadows when she discovered their arson insurance scam, and caring for her
baby.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 20
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 11:17:21 -0700
<snip, blood spirit>

That's not funny.

> Thats the sort of attitude to magic I want regarding Initiates, ANY grade
> initiate should be feared, but thats hard to do when teh mage in teh group
> is already Grade 4!

Hmmm... how many mages do you have in your group? If there is only one,
then send other initiates against him in pairs... that should put the
fear of initiates into him! :)

-Tom-
Message no. 21
From: Graht <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:04:25 -0700
The Digital Mage wrote about "Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR ":
>
> One mage I have - Cinder - is an ex firewoman mage having such spells as
> Detect life, Barrier, Levitate Person and a home grown Water Stream spell
> (damaging manipulation doing Light stun damage with elemental effects of
> water -despite this not being allowed with Light damage spells- and its
> sustained :)
>
> She won't even be considering initiating for a very long while (if ever)
> she has too many problems hiding from the corp who forced her into the
> shadows when she discovered their arson insurance scam, and caring for her
> baby.

That is to cool! Do you mind if I show this to my players?

-Graht

"Pick up the door."
"...Hey, Kunds!"
Message no. 22
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:24:15 GMT
The Digital Mage writes

> Well my intention was to prompt players to step back and say "hmm
> initiation is rather expensive karma wise, I could maybe become more
> powerful sooner by just trying to learn more spells, increasing my sorcery
> skill or bonding a foci". Maube its just my experience but players seem to
> want to go straight for initiation and don't get the power foci (I don't
> think I've actually GMed a game where a mage had one), ally spirits,
> improved magical skills, and more spells.
>
IHMO the fastest way to obscene amounts of power in SR is a few spell
locks and a pile of force 1 utility spells, followed 'by i'm sure
i've got a spell that'll do that!', at something around 10 spells
instead of a grade this is very cheap.
The rule that you can throw astral pool in for simply putting up
astral perception has limited the use of increasing sorcery, it used
to be well worth it after a few grades as you could throw the dice
striaght into theose utilitiy spells. Its also astral combat skill,
nothing beats enemy mage removal with a nice big weapon focus :)
Oh so he's got shielding, THWAP!, but he's not got any armour :)

Ally spirits have the problem that compared to the cost of creating
the things they are FAR too easy to kill. A force six with a sensilbe
supply of bells and whistles will cost you 100 karma. A 100 karma
mage will probably trash the thing in 1 action. Ok you says i won't
use it where it can get attacked, but even if you never intentionally
ask it to attack anything either you never dare use it or you take a
massive risk someone will drop an area effect spell and blow the
thing to bits (hay he could use it as a power focus, unlike the focus
if i use area affect magc i blow up the mage and the spirit, so i
still get hos spirit if he don't croak, oh 'BOOM' [very big fireball])

Sure if you can get away with it, befriend in and let it free as a
friend, feed it a bit of karma and get the effective force to a 12
(rather too easy once its free) you have a SUPER hard assitant/friend
Like the most powerful boost in the game! (a force 6 spirit energy 6
free spirit is staggeringly powerful, thats effective force 12, seen
the comments on wraiths?)

> > Now you doubled or even tripled the cost for initiation. SUre, it is easy
> > to get to initiate grade 0. How easy is it too get to initiate level 6?
> Grade 6 initiation is IMHO _extremely_ difficult to get to, these are the
> sort of magicians who have been studying magic for many years.
>
Even in the rather magic rich games i run / play i have yet to see a
PC reach grade 6 (3 5's on over 300 karma but no 6's). The problem is
you run out of ordeals about grade 4 that you are really prepared to
take [ie the 'free', no permanent damage ones have all been done],
look at 24 karma for grade 6 and well there are far better things to
do with it like a few skill inceases, spells etc.

> A magician going from not being an initiate to being a Grade 4 or 5 in
> just 3 years is IMHO something incredibly rare -assuming game time equates
> to real time.
It probably should be but PC's in SR are generally well above the
average.

> You don't have to be an initiate to run a magical character, even
> beginning magicians are incredibly powerful.
Contemplates shiny new Mobmaster :) [well lonestar didn't need it :),
and actually that character intends to put the money to something
other than himself, yes it was a zero karma PC, though i recon a
sammie with an MGL12 and IPE concussion grenades would have had an
easier time of it, albeit noisier]

> Well again this all comes down to my view on the atmosphere I want -I keep
> teh money at a low stage as well, so sammies with Wired 2 aren't all that
> common.
So it might well be ok in your game, but unless you make comment that
'this is intended for such and such a power level game' folks will
compare it to average practice, for which its very harsh.

> I do this too and I always try to get across teh fact that initaition
> despite the literature written by academic mages is still a relatively
> vague subject area and characters wouldn't know the specifics of it all.
I have managed to enforce this one for a long time, now though too
many folks have (or have been told about) GR2, and well characters go
looking so eventually they find out. And theres not much to be done
about the player info as initiation is mentioned in game so the idea
could have been genuine not player info :(

Mark
Message no. 23
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:09:51 +0000
On Sun, 8 Dec 1996, Robert Pendergrast (Tom) wrote:

> Hmmm... how many mages do you have in your group? If there is only one,
> then send other initiates against him in pairs... that should put the
> fear of initiates into him! :)
At present my new group has no spell casters, I only allowed one magician
and that was a phys ad. The guy who will be taking over for a couple of
sessions will also be carrying on this view (I'll be playing an
unaugmented sam).

But then in the current scenario they have encountered no mages (except Mr
Drake :) Its more a Mission Impossible adventure at present.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 24
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 13:10:58 +0000
On Mon, 9 Dec 1996, Graht wrote:

> > One mage I have - Cinder - is an ex firewoman mage having such spells as
>
> That is to cool! Do you mind if I show this to my players?
Not at all.

Talking of which, what other unusual backgrounds have people come up with
for their magicians?

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 25
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:09:51 +1100
> IHMO the fastest way to obscene amounts of power in SR is a few spell
> locks and a pile of force 1 utility spells, followed 'by i'm sure
> i've got a spell that'll do that!', at something around 10 spells
> instead of a grade this is very cheap.

Yeah, and the easiest way for the GM to get out of the Obscene
Amounts of Power problem is to have a few mages in Astral at
encounters. Dumpitty-dump-dump, crispy fried PC. :) Remember, you can't
dump a spell through an initiation!

> > > Now you doubled or even tripled the cost for initiation. SUre, it is easy
> > > to get to initiate grade 0. How easy is it too get to initiate level 6?
> > Grade 6 initiation is IMHO _extremely_ difficult to get to, these are the
> > sort of magicians who have been studying magic for many years.
> >
> Even in the rather magic rich games i run / play i have yet to see a
> PC reach grade 6 (3 5's on over 300 karma but no 6's). The problem is
> you run out of ordeals about grade 4 that you are really prepared to
> take [ie the 'free', no permanent damage ones have all been done],
> look at 24 karma for grade 6 and well there are far better things to
> do with it like a few skill inceases, spells etc.

We've had one mage get as far as 6, and two or three physads. I think the
record was Grade 8. For physads it *does* make sense to keep initiating
cause you get really cool stuff with the initiation. Plus, if you plan
sensibly, you don't do ordeals for the low-rank initiation (They're cheap
enough anyway), save the ordeals for the initiations where you're going to
save more than 3 karma by doing an ordeal...

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 26
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:20:06 -0800
At 09:09 12/11/96 +1100, The Jestyr wrote:
>We've had one mage get as far as 6, and two or three physads. I think the
>record was Grade 8. For physads it *does* make sense to keep initiating
>cause you get really cool stuff with the initiation. Plus, if you plan
>sensibly, you don't do ordeals for the low-rank initiation (They're cheap
>enough anyway), save the ordeals for the initiations where you're going to
>save more than 3 karma by doing an ordeal...

It's also sensible to do the ordeals that require actual rolls of some sort
based on one's Initiate Grade first (quests, meditation, ...), then do the ones
that don't later (thesis, oath, ...).
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Don't keep all your bats in one belfry." - me %%%
Message no. 27
From: Graht <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:51:16 -0700
Max Rible wrote about "Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR ":

> At 09:09 12/11/96 +1100, The Jestyr wrote:
> >We've had one mage get as far as 6, and two or three physads. I think the
> >record was Grade 8. For physads it *does* make sense to keep initiating
> >cause you get really cool stuff with the initiation. Plus, if you plan
> >sensibly, you don't do ordeals for the low-rank initiation (They're cheap
> >enough anyway), save the ordeals for the initiations where you're going to
> >save more than 3 karma by doing an ordeal...
>
> It's also sensible to do the ordeals that require actual rolls of some sort
> based on one's Initiate Grade first (quests, meditation, ...), then do the ones
> that don't later (thesis, oath, ...).

I've got one poor PC in my game that waited until grade 5 before
doing the quest. He's still grade 5.

-Graht

"Pick up the door."
"...Hey, Kunds!"
Message no. 28
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:26:44 GMT
The Jestyr writes

> > IHMO the fastest way to obscene amounts of power in SR is a few spell
> > locks and a pile of force 1 utility spells, followed 'by i'm sure
> > i've got a spell that'll do that!', at something around 10 spells
> > instead of a grade this is very cheap.
>
> Yeah, and the easiest way for the GM to get out of the Obscene
> Amounts of Power problem is to have a few mages in Astral at
> encounters. Dumpitty-dump-dump, crispy fried PC. :) Remember, you can't
> dump a spell through an initiation!
>
Yes but you need very few locked and about 3 grades masks the basics.
things like makeover and such are very useful and just cast as
needed, generally when there are no bad guys about, not that you can
ground through sustained spells anyway!


> We've had one mage get as far as 6, and two or three physads. I think the
> record was Grade 8. For physads it *does* make sense to keep initiating
> cause you get really cool stuff with the initiation.
True as skills are so expensive, i have noted they tend to dump more
into it.

> Plus, if you plan
> sensibly, you don't do ordeals for the low-rank initiation (They're cheap
> enough anyway), save the ordeals for the initiations where you're going to
> save more than 3 karma by doing an ordeal...
>
Thats a long long term view, Good if you know you are going to be
about (and the game 12 months or ore in the future)
Most runners would get the power now and hope to retire before this
becomes significant.
I am aware of this trick but the saving is very low compared to the
time delay on getting grades, unless you plan to become much higher
grade than i generally see (eg over 6!, pre well over for noteable
savings)

Mark
Message no. 29
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:30:38 GMT
Max Rible writes
>
> It's also sensible to do the ordeals that require actual rolls of some sort
> based on one's Initiate Grade first (quests, meditation, ...), then do the ones
> that don't later (thesis, oath, ...).

Appart from the fact that oath has to be the first if its on a group.
so most folks get stuck with it at zero.
Meditaion only time depends on grade, ok still a good idea to do it
quick, the one for planning though is quest. Grade 2's about best you
have an astral pool, and target 4 is not much worse than 2's really.
I allow it to be repaeted assuming another ordeal between, but thats
obviously earliest grade 3 (1st go grade 1) which is now rating 8!
ouch, do-able, i gave up rolling rating 10's for grade 4-5 initiates,
dice method its to easy if they reat the drain off. The best i've
done was rating 15! but that particular NPC is no sane grade rating.

Mark
Message no. 30
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:46:20 -0700
>> It's also sensible to do the ordeals that require actual rolls of some sort
>> based on one's Initiate Grade first (quests, meditation...), then do the ones
>> that don't later (thesis, oath, ...).

<snip>
> Meditaion only time depends on grade, ok still a good idea to do it
> quick, the one for planning though is quest. Grade 2's about best you
> have an astral pool, and target 4 is not much worse than 2's really.
> I allow it to be repaeted assuming another ordeal between, but thats
> obviously earliest grade 3 (1st go grade 1) which is now rating 8!
> ouch, do-able, i gave up rolling rating 10's for grade 4-5 initiates,
> dice method its to easy if they reat the drain off. The best i've
> done was rating 15! but that particular NPC is no sane grade rating.

Try watching a friend's grade 9 quest to get to grade 10!!! (And make it
which is the SCARY thing... lucky sob...)

-Tom-
Message no. 31
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gradual Initiation (was Re: SR Comp Comments)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 11:24:38 GMT
"Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" writes

> Try watching a friend's grade 9 quest to get to grade 10!!! (And make it
> which is the SCARY thing... lucky sob...)
>
But the target number for initiation quest is twice desired grade
rating!

And around grade 4 rating 10 quests are pretty repeatable.
The cutoff comes at rating 12, 12's being 3 times rarer on the dice
that 10's. given the likely amount of dice for the rolls (average 10 -
12 or so) even for very high grade magicians 12's are just not
common, ok karma helps staggeringly but.
Roleplayed is a different story, but then FASA's example is HB! thats
rated at rating 15! though it is on beyond beyond the citadel and
multiple people as well.

Mark

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