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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:34:31 -0500
Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical ability? (yes,
I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be one?)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 2
From: Michael Schoo <michael.schoo@*****.TU-CLAUSTHAL.DE>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:50:12 +0200
Hi, this is my first message here, so don't shred me for my
opinion ;)

>Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical
>ability? (yes,
>I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be one?)


I think that summoning Great Forms shouldn't be a metamagical
ability for a simple reason.
You already get tons of boni once you are initiated and there is a
great difference between Initiates and Non-initiates. Giving the
Great Form to Ini. only would make it even bigger and therefor I'd
say 'no'.

ICEMAN
Message no. 3
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:12:52 -0500
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:50:12 +0200 Michael Schoo
<michael.schoo@*****.TU-CLAUSTHAL.DE> writes:
>Hi, this is my first message here, so don't shred me for my
>opinion ;)

>>Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical ability?
(yes,
>>I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be one?)

>I think that summoning Great Forms shouldn't be a metamagical
>ability for a simple reason.
>You already get tons of boni once you are initiated and there is a
>great difference between Initiates and Non-initiates. Giving the
>Great Form to Ini. only would make it even bigger and therefor I'd
>say 'no'.
>
>ICEMAN

Uhm ... Great Forms ARE initiate only already ... The first thing you
have to do is go on an astral quest (which only intiates can do) in order
summon a great form ... Therefore, not only are they Intiate only ...
They are available to Intiated Full Mages ... (since Conjury adepts can't
astrally project even in SR3)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 4
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:21:23 -0400
D. Ghost--

>Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical ability? =

>(yes, I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be =

>one?)

Ah, but it *is* a metamagical ability... only Initiates can
summon Great Forms, and it's a real PITA, too. Have you ever rolled
the dice for an Astral Quest? Gaaaaah. You pass out on a regular
basis, and since the spirit is waiting there, it gets to go free or
pound on you while you're unconcious (GM's option). <g>

Shadowmage
Message no. 5
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:35:17 -0500
----------
> From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>
>
> Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical ability? (yes,
> I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be one?)

In a way it already is. Since the only way to summon a great form
_anything_ is to make an astral quest to a Metaplane (with a Quest Rating
equal to the force of the spirit), and only initiates can access the
Metaplanes, it is an ability only available to initiates. You could
kinda/maybe/sorta consider it a metamagical ability.

One thing that gets to me is that it is a metamagical ability that is
completely beyond aspected conjurors (just as quickening and anchoring
were beyond any sorcerers in the FTE [First Two Editions]), since they
cannot make an astral quest to the metaplanes (being limited to astral
perception). I would personally allow an aspected conjuror (or any
aspected magician with conjuring abilities) to make an Astral Quest for
the purpose of summoning Great Forms _only_. Not to hide sustaining foci,
or quickenings, or for any other purpose but summoning great forms.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"You fail, Death-Lord! You destroy the instrument, but not its music.
With all your power you have gained only a broken shell."
In that moment, when the harp had been silenced, arose the songs of
birds, the chiming of brooks, the humming of wind through grass and
leaves; and all these voices took up the strands of melody, more beautiful
than before.
-Lloyd Alexander, "The Smith, The Weaver, and the Harper"
Message no. 6
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:40:49 -0500
----------
> From: Michael Schoo <michael.schoo@*****.TU-CLAUSTHAL.DE>
> >Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical
> >ability? (yes,
> >I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be one?)
>
> You already get tons of boni once you are initiated and there is a
> great difference between Initiates and Non-initiates. Giving the
> Great Form to Ini. only would make it even bigger and therefor I'd
> say 'no'.

Uhhh, Iceman? In order to summon a great form, you need to make a quest
to its home metaplane... AFAIK, only initiates have been able to reach
metaplanes since day one...

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
"You fail, Death-Lord! You destroy the instrument, but not its music.
With all your power you have gained only a broken shell."
In that moment, when the harp had been silenced, arose the songs of
birds, the chiming of brooks, the humming of wind through grass and
leaves; and all these voices took up the strands of melody, more beautiful
than before.
-Lloyd Alexander, "The Smith, The Weaver, and the Harper"
Message no. 7
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:16:06 EDT
Kenson told us "Astral quests are no longer required for summoning great
forms.
It's a seperate technique." that is all I got right then and there, though.
Maybe he will say more.
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:27:07 -0500
On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:21:23 -0400 Tarek Okail
<Tarek_Okail@**********.COM> writes:
>D. Ghost--
>>Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical ability?
>>(yes, I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be one?)

> Ah, but it *is* a metamagical ability... only Initiates can
>summon Great Forms, and it's a real PITA, too. Have you ever rolled
>the dice for an Astral Quest? Gaaaaah. You pass out on a regular
>basis, and since the spirit is waiting there, it gets to go free or
>pound on you while you're unconcious (GM's option). <g>
>
>Shadowmage

Whether or not great form spirit summoning is a true metamagic ability
and not just something only intiates do is a big deal ... especially
since in our games we use gradual intiation. IOW ... at grade
(whatever), you have to choose whether to get Great Form Spirit Summoning
or Masking or Centering, etc ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

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Message no. 9
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:53:57 -0400
D. Ghost--

>Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical ability?
(Re: gradual initiation)

Until MitS comes out, why don't you just allow Initiated Conjuring
Adepts to go on an Astral Quest to conjure Great Forms? =

If you allow magicians access to the metaplanes on the first =

initiation, then allow Conjuring Adepts to access the metaplanes
specifically for the purpose of summoning Great Forms.

Shadowmage
Message no. 10
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:53:40 +1000
>Uhm ... Great Forms ARE initiate only already ... The first thing you
>have to do is go on an astral quest (which only intiates can do) in order
>summon a great form ... Therefore, not only are they Intiate only ...
>They are available to Intiated Full Mages ... (since Conjury adepts can't
>astrally project even in SR3)
>
>D. Ghost


You do realize that ALL Aspected Magicians (including Conjurers) are
capable of astral perception as of SR3, don't you? To quote the book:
"Aspected magicians are capable of astral perception, but not astral
projection." (page 160, SR3). Nowhere later in the book does it contradict
this statement.


- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 11
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 22:05:21 -0500
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:53:40 +1000 Bob Tockley
<zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU> writes:
>>Uhm ... Great Forms ARE initiate only already ... The first thing you
>>have to do is go on an astral quest (which only intiates can do) in
order
>>summon a great form ... Therefore, not only are they Intiate only ...
>>They are available to Intiated Full Mages ... (since Conjury adepts
can't
>>astrally project even in SR3)
>>
>>D. Ghost

>You do realize that ALL Aspected Magicians (including Conjurers) are
>capable of astral perception as of SR3, don't you? To quote the book:
>"Aspected magicians are capable of astral perception, but not astral
>projection." (page 160, SR3). Nowhere later in the book does it
contradict
>this statement.
>
>
>- ARKHAM
<SNIP>

And??? So what? According Grimmy2, you need astral *PROJECTION*, not
perception ... did you misread what typed?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 12
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:12:55 +1000
>And??? So what? According Grimmy2, you need astral *PROJECTION*, not
>perception ... did you misread what typed?
>
>D. Ghost


<sheepish look> Lemme 'lone. I got no sleep the last two days, already...


- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 13
From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:42:45 EDT
In a message dated 9/6/1998 6:22:43 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Tarek_Okail@**********.COM writes:

> D. Ghost--
> >Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical ability?
> >(yes, I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be
> >one?)
>
> Ah, but it *is* a metamagical ability... only Initiates can
> summon Great Forms, and it's a real PITA, too. Have you ever rolled
> the dice for an Astral Quest? Gaaaaah. You pass out on a regular
> basis, and since the spirit is waiting there, it gets to go free or
> pound on you while you're unconcious (GM's option). <g>

If I am perceiving Mr. Ghost correctly, I believe he is inquiring whether it
should be something you would have to develop as an additional metamagical
talent. Am I correct in this assumption?
Message no. 14
From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:45:55 EDT
In a message dated 9/6/1998 6:44:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> Uhhh, Iceman? In order to summon a great form, you need to make a quest
> to its home metaplane... AFAIK, only initiates have been able to reach
> metaplanes since day one...
>
I have heard that with the Astral Gateway ability of a Free Being, that anyone
can journey to the Metaplanes. If this is true, could a non-initiated
magician, with the assistance of a being possessing said ability, be able to
perform such a feat?
Message no. 15
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:06:43 -0500
> Uhm ... Great Forms ARE initiate only already ... The first thing you
> have to do is go on an astral quest (which only intiates can do) in order
> summon a great form ... Therefore, not only are they Intiate only ...
> They are available to Intiated Full Mages ... (since Conjury adepts can't
> astrally project even in SR3)
>

Elemental Adepts can quest. (Grimoire p39, last paragraph). Shamanic Adepts
can project. (SR2, p 125, first full paragraph). Astral Adepts can project
(but they can't conjure, so the point is moot). And I haven't looked for
references yet in SR3. (And if you wanna add Physical Mages...)

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 16
From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 03:02:36 EDT
In a message dated 9/7/1998 1:08:18 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
xaos@*****.NET writes:

> > Uhm ... Great Forms ARE initiate only already ... The first thing you
> > have to do is go on an astral quest (which only intiates can do) in order
> > summon a great form ... Therefore, not only are they Intiate only ...
> > They are available to Intiated Full Mages ... (since Conjury adepts can't
> > astrally project even in SR3)
> >
>
> Elemental Adepts can quest. (Grimoire p39, last paragraph). Shamanic Adepts
> can project. (SR2, p 125, first full paragraph). Astral Adepts can project
> (but they can't conjure, so the point is moot). And I haven't looked for
> references yet in SR3. (And if you wanna add Physical Mages...)

Again, references are made in between system evolutions here. It is true,
that in SR3, Aspected Magicians cannot project into the astral, only perceive
it. As such, they would be unable to make the venture into the Metaplanes are
perform an astral quest of any kind without assistance from other beings.

As for the comparisons to SR2, I am uncertain how to compare. What is an
"Astral Adept", as it is what to me would entail an Aspected Magician that
functions principally, if not solely, within the confines of the Astral
Medium?
Message no. 17
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 02:07:03 -0500
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 01:06:43 -0500 XaOs <xaos@*****.NET> writes:
>> Uhm ... Great Forms ARE initiate only already ... The first thing you
>> have to do is go on an astral quest (which only intiates can do) in
order
>> summon a great form ... Therefore, not only are they Intiate only ...
>> They are available to Intiated Full Mages ... (since Conjury adepts
can't
>> astrally project even in SR3)

>Elemental Adepts can quest. (Grimoire p39, last paragraph). Shamanic
Adepts
>can project. (SR2, p 125, first full paragraph). Astral Adepts can
project
>(but they can't conjure, so the point is moot). And I haven't looked for
>references yet in SR3. (And if you wanna add Physical Mages...)
>
>-XaOs-
>xaos@*****.net

That's odd ... I stand (sit actually) corrected in so far as SR2 is
concerned ... in SR3, all aspected magicians astrally perceive but none
can project.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:57:12 +0200
Bob Tockley said on 12:53/7 Sep 98,...

> >(since Conjury adepts can't astrally project even in SR3)
> >
> >D. Ghost
>
> You do realize that ALL Aspected Magicians (including Conjurers) are
> capable of astral perception as of SR3, don't you? To quote the book:
> "Aspected magicians are capable of astral perception, but not astral
> projection." (page 160, SR3). Nowhere later in the book does it contradict
> this statement.

So where's the problem? Nowhere was it said they didn't have astral
perception, only that they can't do projection, which you then fail to
mention...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Elindor Quinn <rjakins@****.MURDOCH.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:47:19 +0800
D. Ghost wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 00:50:12 +0200 Michael Schoo
> <michael.schoo@*****.TU-CLAUSTHAL.DE> writes:
> >Hi, this is my first message here, so don't shred me for my
> >opinion ;)
>
> Uhm ... Great Forms ARE initiate only already ... The first thing you have
> to do is go on an astral quest (which only intiates can do) in order
> summon a great form ... Therefore, not only are they Intiate only ... They
> are available to Intiated Full Mages ... (since Conjury adepts can't
> astrally project even in SR3)

I'd tend to rule that every magician (aspected or not) is capable of
astrally questing. This means that conjurors, elemantalists and
shamanists can conjure great forms.

Elindor Quinn
The Devil's Advocate
(rjakins@****.murdoch.edu.au)
ICQ #9277613
I'm a 5354533534 kind of person.
Message no. 20
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:29:45 +0100
And verily, did D. Ghost hastily scribble thusly...
|Uhm ... Great Forms ARE initiate only already ... The first thing you
|have to do is go on an astral quest (which only intiates can do) in order
|summon a great form ... Therefore, not only are they Intiate only ...
|They are available to Intiated Full Mages ... (since Conjury adepts can't
|astrally project even in SR3)

Not...entirely true.
They can't under their own power, but they can with the aid of a free spirit
with the astral gateway power.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 21
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 13:39:19 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
|Uhhh, Iceman? In order to summon a great form, you need to make a quest
|to its home metaplane... AFAIK, only initiates have been able to reach
|metaplanes since day one...

Astral Gateway power. Free-Spirits. Look it up.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 22
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 09:33:03 -0500
----------
> From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
> > Uhhh, Iceman? In order to summon a great form, you need to make a
quest
> > to its home metaplane... AFAIK, only initiates have been able to
reach
> > metaplanes since day one...
> >
> I have heard that with the Astral Gateway ability of a Free Being, that
anyone
> can journey to the Metaplanes. If this is true, could a non-initiated
> magician, with the assistance of a being possessing said ability, be
able to
> perform such a feat?

Sure, but locating a free spirit...one who not only has the power but is
willing to use it on your behalf... isn't exactly the same as buying
Twinkies at a Stuffer Shack.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
Message no. 23
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 10:31:29 -0500
----------
> From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
>
> And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
> |Uhhh, Iceman? In order to summon a great form, you need to make a
quest
> |to its home metaplane... AFAIK, only initiates have been able to reach
> |metaplanes since day one...
>
> Astral Gateway power. Free-Spirits. Look it up.

Ok, Spike, how many Free Spirits with the Astral Gateway power does the
average runner know? How likely is it that their home metaplane is the
one they want to go to? How much is it going to cost them to get use of
it (in Karma, no less, which few mages are going to have hanging around by
the bucketloads)? How many would they trust to use it on their behalf?

So yes, the astral gateway power can take you there. But is it worth the
time (to find one that will/can help you) and cost (both in Karma and
paranoia)?

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
The place to improve the world is in one's own heart and head and hands,
and then work outward from there. Other people talk about how to expand
the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a
motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.
-Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
Message no. 24
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:42:47 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
|Ok, Spike, how many Free Spirits with the Astral Gateway power does the
|average runner know? How likely is it that their home metaplane is the
|one they want to go to? How much is it going to cost them to get use of
|it (in Karma, no less, which few mages are going to have hanging around by
|the bucketloads)? How many would they trust to use it on their behalf?

|So yes, the astral gateway power can take you there. But is it worth the
|time (to find one that will/can help you) and cost (both in Karma and
|paranoia)?

Hey, I never said it was easy. I just said it wasn't Impossible....
:)
(Highly improbable, yes, but with a finite improbability generator and a
REALLY hot cup of tea, who knows....)

:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 25
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:32:58 -0400
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At 01:45 AM 9/7/98 -0400, Kaptiv wrote:
>> Uhhh, Iceman? In order to summon a great form, you need to make a
quest
>> to its home metaplane... AFAIK, only initiates have been able to
reach
>> metaplanes since day one...
>>
>I have heard that with the Astral Gateway ability of a Free Being,
that anyone
>can journey to the Metaplanes. If this is true, could a
non-initiated
>magician, with the assistance of a being possessing said ability, be
able to
>perform such a feat?

Grimoire (2nd edition), p. 64
"An initiate can conjure a spirit in it's great form."
^^^^^^^^

Note that initiates are specifically refered to. Not just magic users,
but in particular, initiates.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 26
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:15:02 -0500
> As for the comparisons to SR2, I am uncertain how to compare. What is an
> "Astral Adept", as it is what to me would entail an Aspected Magician that
> functions principally, if not solely, within the confines of the Astral
> Medium?

That's correct. Basically, all their magic is focused on Astral combat.
(It's in Awakenings). I put my books away, so I don't have page references
handy. They can perceive and project, but they can't conjure or cast.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 27
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:19:18 -0400
On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

->Should summoning great forms be considered a metamagical ability? (yes,
->I know it's not one in Grimmy .. I'm asking *SHOULD* it be one?)

Summoning great forms requires travelling to he metaplanes. Since
this requires the summoner to be an initiate they don't need any
PARTICULAR metamagical ability, but they would need to be an initiate.
Can Conjuring Adepts reach the metaplanes to conjure great form
spirits & elementals? If not, seems like a real downer.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 28
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:35:13 -0400
On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Nexx wrote:

->One thing that gets to me is that it is a metamagical ability that is
->completely beyond aspected conjurors (just as quickening and anchoring
->were beyond any sorcerers in the FTE [First Two Editions]), since they
->cannot make an astral quest to the metaplanes (being limited to astral
->perception). I would personally allow an aspected conjuror (or any
->aspected magician with conjuring abilities) to make an Astral Quest for
->the purpose of summoning Great Forms _only_. Not to hide sustaining foci,
->or quickenings, or for any other purpose but summoning great forms.

Ok, mild debate point here: Where does it say that you must be
able to astrally project in order to reach the Metaplanes? I know it says
it, I just don't remember where. And I'm asking to bring up a point.
From the describtion in either Grimoire (1st or 2nd edition) it
explains that projecting to reach the metaplanes and projecting to reach
astral space are entirely different. Like walking around on the ground
but instead, walking straight up (my example, the books was much better).
This being the case, shouldn't a conjuring adept be able to selectively
choose to project to metaplanes (true names of free spirits, summoning
great forms, learning information). At present, they only way for a
conjuring adept to reach the metaplanes is with the assistance of a free
spirit with the Astral Gateway power. Since those are not a dime-a-dozen,
it seems one of my favorite adepts (the other being physad), er, aspected
magicians is set up to be weaker than it's supposed to. Hopefully someone
will correct in MiTS.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 29
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 08:36:43 -0400
On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Michael vanHulst wrote:

-> Kenson told us "Astral quests are no longer required for summoning great
->forms.
->It's a seperate technique." that is all I got right then and there, though.
->Maybe he will say more.

Let me guess, it's in Awakenings.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 30
From: Kaptiv Audienz <G8TWAY@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:20:30 EDT
In a message dated 9/8/1998 7:29:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

>
> -> Kenson told us "Astral quests are no longer required for summoning
great
> ->forms.
> ->It's a seperate technique." that is all I got right then and there,
though.
> Let me guess, it's in Awakenings.

I could find no such clarification in Awakenings. Perhaps this occurred in a
private conversation?
Message no. 31
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:42:43 -0400
David Foster wrote:
>
> On Sun, 6 Sep 1998, Michael vanHulst wrote:
>
> -> Kenson told us "Astral quests are no longer required for summoning great
> ->forms.
> ->It's a seperate technique." that is all I got right then and there, though.
> ->Maybe he will say more.
>
> Let me guess, it's in Awakenings.

No, that'd be too simple. >8-> It sounds like it's going to be in _Magic
in the Shadows_, around Novembertime.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 32
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:18:53 -0400
Fixer--

>>... summoning great forms...separate technique.
>Let me guess, it's in Awakenings.

Nice guess, but incorrect. I'm guessing it'll be in MitS.

Shadowmage
Message no. 33
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:18:51 -0400
Steve Eley--

>No, that'd be too simple. >8-> It sounds like it's going to
>be in _Magic in the Shadows_, around Novembertime.

MitS is currently slated for a February '99 release. <g>

Shadowmage
Message no. 34
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Great Forms
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:09:05 EDT
In a message dated 9/8/98 12:22:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time, G8TWAY@***.COM
writes:

> > -> Kenson told us "Astral quests are no longer required for summoning
> great
> > ->forms.
> > ->It's a seperate technique." that is all I got right then and there,
> though.
> > Let me guess, it's in Awakenings.
>
> I could find no such clarification in Awakenings. Perhaps this occurred in
> a
> private conversation?
Yes, but it is meant for SR3, and MitS. Sorry I didn't clarify that. As such
it is a rule that has not been published yet.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Great Forms, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.