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Message no. 1
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:27:37 -0500
lemon wrote:

> <SNIP>

> > In FF8 the characters can summon Guardian Forces,
> >kinda like super spirits to beat the crap outta their
> >enimies, heal them or do other stuff. I was thinking
> >about allowing this ability as a high end metamagic
> >ability to shamen. A shamen could summon his Totem,
> >actully a representitive of his totem or a one shot
> >spirit to do one action that is defined by the bonus
> >given to the shamen by that totem.
>

In my game, the PCs came up against what I termed a "Fire Avatar". It
comes about by a magician traveling to the Metaplane of Fire, beating one
senseless, then dragging it back to the physical plane, thus imprisoning
it until either he dies or he lets it go out of the goodness of his heart.
Mega-Karma has to be spent, and the process is roleplayed out. There are
also Earth Avatars, Water Avatars and Air Avatars, but they don't know
that yet <EGMG>.


--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the
Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they
produce? The cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+
(o++ d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 2
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:32:44 -0600
>> > In FF8 the characters can summon Guardian Forces,
>> >kinda like super spirits to beat the crap outta their
>> >enimies, heal them or do other stuff. I was thinking
>> >about allowing this ability as a high end metamagic
>> >ability to shamen. A shamen could summon his Totem,
>> >actully a representitive of his totem or a one shot
>> >spirit to do one action that is defined by the bonus
>> >given to the shamen by that totem.
>>
>
>In my game, the PCs came up against what I termed a "Fire Avatar". It
>comes about by a magician traveling to the Metaplane of Fire, beating one
>senseless, then dragging it back to the physical plane, thus imprisoning
>it until either he dies or he lets it go out of the goodness of his heart.
>Mega-Karma has to be spent, and the process is roleplayed out. There are
>also Earth Avatars, Water Avatars and Air Avatars, but they don't know
>that yet <EGMG>.


Want a VERY Scary thought? Wait for the return of the comet...... Can you
say UGLY?
Message no. 3
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:48:14 -0500
Brent Smith wrote:

> <SNIP>
>
> Want a VERY Scary thought? Wait for the return of the comet...... Can you
> say UGLY?

OOOH, I'm getting all sorts of ugly ideas . . . like the comet affecting the
mana flow in some manner. . . ooh ooh ooh and four out of the five characters
are Awakened ooh ooh ooh screw! <EGMG>
Message no. 4
From: Shane Hyde chaff.editor@*****.net.nz
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 99 10:35:31 +1300
>Want a VERY Scary thought? Wait for the return of the comet...... Can you
>say UGLY?

How ugly?
Message no. 5
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:48:19 -0600
>OOOH, I'm getting all sorts of ugly ideas . . . like the comet affecting
the
>mana flow in some manner. . . ooh ooh ooh and four out of the five
characters
>are Awakened ooh ooh ooh screw! <EGMG>
>

IMHO Current speculation in my circles involve a mana spike of sorts or even
it being the herald to "opening the magic gate" a little more. Things like
"demons", Major freespirits, and maybe the emergence of even more races are
probbable. Or alternativly, nothing happens because of the comet, but chaos
does ensue because of the paranoia. Can you see what would happen if the
dragons decided to grab all they could get because "The world is going to
change with the comet"? Can you say Major global chaos if not downright war.
Just something to make you drool for the upcomming book, and make your
players wish you never had net access.
Brent
Message no. 6
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 08:31:06 -0500
From: "Brent Smith" <Lucius@****.com>


> >OOOH, I'm getting all sorts of ugly ideas . . . like the comet affecting
> the
> >mana flow in some manner. . . ooh ooh ooh and four out of the five
> characters
> >are Awakened ooh ooh ooh screw! <EGMG>
> >
>
> <snip>
> does ensue because of the paranoia. Can you see what would happen if the
> dragons decided to grab all they could get because "The world is going to
> change with the comet"? Can you say Major global chaos if not downright
war.

Uh, well, they would know, one way or the other, the effects of the comet on
people and magic. I don't think they would be particularly susceptible to
paranoia.
Message no. 7
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:15:04 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
>Uh, well, they would know, one way or the other, the effects of the comet
on
>people and magic. I don't think they would be particularly susceptible to
>paranoia.

Why would they know? What if the effects are different each time it passes?
What if they decided Screw it Dunkelzahn was a twit. We fight for what is
our and I'm taking it. And you know that would be Loftwyers attitude. "Screw
you guys, Its mine..." It only takes a little misinformation or fear to make
things start happening...
Brent
Message no. 8
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:28:14 -0500
From: "Brent Smith" <Lucius@****.com>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: abortion_engine <abortion_engine@*******.com>
> >Uh, well, they would know, one way or the other, the effects of the comet
> on
> >people and magic. I don't think they would be particularly susceptible to
> >paranoia.
>
> Why would they know? What if the effects are different each time it
passes?

Well, that is possible, although you'd think, as they've been awake for
something like 160 passes, that they'd have seen it all. The big
differentiation this time is the earth passing through the comet's tail,
which is certain to--for some reason--have a different effect. Again, you'd
think that's happened at least once.

We'll certainly see, when YOTC comes out.

> What if they decided Screw it Dunkelzahn was a twit. We fight for what is
> our and I'm taking it.

What would he have to do with it? It's not like he was the Dragon King or
something; if enough of his peers--say, any two--decided to destroy him,
they could've. He's not *that* much older than everyone else.

> And you know that would be Loftwyers attitude. "Screw
> you guys, Its mine..." It only takes a little misinformation or fear to
make
> things start happening...

Well, I'm no FASA employee, so everything I say is hardly canon, but I'll
tell you this; that is not the Dragon way. If they want something, it takes
no comet for them to take it. It takes only time and effort.
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:22:04 -0600
From: abortion_engine
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 10:28 AM

> > And you know that would be Loftwyers attitude. "Screw you guys, Its
> > mine..." It only takes a little misinformation or fear to make things
> > start happening...
>
> Well, I'm no FASA employee, so everything I say is hardly canon, but I'll
> tell you this; that is not the Dragon way.

So very, very true....

> If they want something, it takes
> no comet for them to take it. It takes only time and effort.

Of which, most dragons are blessed with copious amounts of both.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:15:54 -0600
From Abortion-Engine
>Well, I'm no FASA employee, so everything I say is hardly canon, but I'll
>tell you this; that is not the Dragon way. If they want something, it takes
>no comet for them to take it. It takes only time and effort.

Well actually it was Dunkelzahn who broke the cycle, and in effect won the
game. He left a will because dragons normaly Fight to claim everything the
dead dragon had. So a pice of paper, and an orginazation are all thats
stoping the dragons from getting all the neat goodies Dunkie had.
Message no. 11
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:00:26 -0500
From: "Brent Smith" <Lucius@****.com>


> From Abortion-Engine
> >Well, I'm no FASA employee, so everything I say is hardly canon, but I'll
> >tell you this; that is not the Dragon way. If they want something, it
takes
> >no comet for them to take it. It takes only time and effort.
>
> Well actually it was Dunkelzahn who broke the cycle, and in effect won the
> game. He left a will because dragons normaly Fight to claim everything the
> dead dragon had. So a pice of paper, and an orginazation are all thats
> stoping the dragons from getting all the neat goodies Dunkie had.

Well, but that's in only one case; you were originally talking about "all
the Dragons taking everything in the world because the comet was coming."
Dunkelzahn could hardly have stopped them from doing that, if they were of a
mind to.

And nothing stops the Dragons from taking Dunkelzahn's horde; they're doing
it, if with more subtlety than they generally would. That piece of paper and
the Draco foundation can't stop anything.

Dunkelzahn did break *a* tradition, and *won* a game he was playing. [Just
as so many had in the past, like Denairastas the Outcast and Alamais.]

But that has nothing to do with the Dragons taking over the world in the
wake of the fear caused by the comet, which was your original premise. [This
is one of the reasons to quote previous posts.] Again I say, if a Dragon
wants to take something, the only real thing stopping him is another Dragon.

As you seem to be quite interested in both Dragons and Dunkelzahn's Will, I
would suggest you read the unpublished sourcebook Dragons, available on
FASA's website, which is the definitive FASA work on the subject, as well as
the basis for much of Dunkelzahn's Will. I highly recommend it for all SR
gamemasters; it has given me many, many SR plotlines, including Revenge,
which is currently being run by the "Away" group in Michigan, much of which
revolves around the resurrected Alamais. Ahh...
Message no. 12
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:11:27 -0500
At 01:00 PM 12/3/99 -0500, abortion_engine posited:
>From: "Brent Smith" <Lucius@****.com>
> > From Abortion-Engine
> > >Well, I'm no FASA employee, so everything I say is hardly canon, but I'll
> > >tell you this; that is not the Dragon way. If they want something, it
>takes
> > >no comet for them to take it. It takes only time and effort.
> >
> > Well actually it was Dunkelzahn who broke the cycle, and in effect won the
> > game. He left a will because dragons normaly Fight to claim everything the
> > dead dragon had. So a pice of paper, and an orginazation are all thats
> > stoping the dragons from getting all the neat goodies Dunkie had.
>
>Well, but that's in only one case; you were originally talking about "all
>the Dragons taking everything in the world because the comet was coming."
>Dunkelzahn could hardly have stopped them from doing that, if they were of a
>mind to.

No, but the rest of the world could have. People in SR leave Dragons pretty
much alone because they are big, powerful, secretive and scary. But if one
really started to get out of control, like blowing up entire cities for
example, do you think that the military of whatever nation you were talking
about wouldn't put all of their top magical forces, tanks, infantry, etc on
stopping him?

>And nothing stops the Dragons from taking Dunkelzahn's horde; they're doing
>it, if with more subtlety than they generally would. That piece of paper and
>the Draco foundation can't stop anything.

Well actually it can. The traditional way that a dragon's stuff was divided
up was that other dragons fought over his horde until he had taken what he
wanted. When D kicked off, he gave some of it to other dragons, and then
gave the rest of it away to who ever he felt like.

One of the reasons that dragons are so feared is because they are so old,
secretive and alien in thought. If they try to just muscle their way in and
take stuff, they become much smaller beings. Not to mention that a lot of
the stuff can't be taken. How does Alamaise swoop down and take a million
shares of Ares stock? He doesn't. Vogel owns them. Since so much of what
the Draco Foundation controls is intangible or well protected, the dragons
really can't just take it. Now they can buy, steal or threaten their way
into getting want they want, but so can any other powerful group.

>Dunkelzahn did break *a* tradition, and *won* a game he was playing. [Just
>as so many had in the past, like Denairastas the Outcast and Alamais.]
>
>But that has nothing to do with the Dragons taking over the world in the
>wake of the fear caused by the comet, which was your original premise. [This
>is one of the reasons to quote previous posts.] Again I say, if a Dragon
>wants to take something, the only real thing stopping him is another Dragon.

No, just any sufficiently powered/motivated/wealthy enough foe. Unlike some
other systems, dragons in SR don't just sit around in their cave waiting
for adventurers. However, they aren't the be all end all either. They can
be opposed by other dragons, corps, the ubiquitous Immortal Elves, a lot of
governments, and a few other miscellaneous groups like Winternight or The
Black Lodge.

>As you seem to be quite interested in both Dragons and Dunkelzahn's Will, I
>would suggest you read the unpublished sourcebook Dragons, available on
>FASA's website, which is the definitive FASA work on the subject, as well as
>the basis for much of Dunkelzahn's Will. I highly recommend it for all SR
>gamemasters; it has given me many, many SR plotlines, including Revenge,
>which is currently being run by the "Away" group in Michigan, much of which
>revolves around the resurrected Alamais. Ahh...

I second that. I still haven't finished the whole thing, but all sorts of
great ideas for a dragon's motivations...



Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 13
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:00:22 -0500
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.edu>
> At 01:00 PM 12/3/99 -0500, abortion_engine posited:
> >From: "Brent Smith" <Lucius@****.com>
> > > From Abortion-Engine
> > > >Well, I'm no FASA employee, so everything I say is hardly canon, but
I'll
> > > >tell you this; that is not the Dragon way. If they want something, it
> >takes
> > > >no comet for them to take it. It takes only time and effort.
> > >
> > > Well actually it was Dunkelzahn who broke the cycle, and in effect won
the
> > > game. He left a will because dragons normaly Fight to claim everything
the
> > > dead dragon had. So a pice of paper, and an orginazation are all thats
> > > stoping the dragons from getting all the neat goodies Dunkie had.
> >
> >Well, but that's in only one case; you were originally talking about "all
> >the Dragons taking everything in the world because the comet was coming."
> >Dunkelzahn could hardly have stopped them from doing that, if they were
of a
> >mind to.
>
> No, but the rest of the world could have. People in SR leave Dragons
pretty
> much alone because they are big, powerful, secretive and scary. But if one
> really started to get out of control, like blowing up entire cities for
> example, do you think that the military of whatever nation you were
talking
> about wouldn't put all of their top magical forces, tanks, infantry, etc
on
> stopping him?

Riiiight. Wait, no. Every time someone has attempted to kill a Great after
that sort of destruction, they've failed. Tehran, anyone?

> >And nothing stops the Dragons from taking Dunkelzahn's horde; they're
doing
> >it, if with more subtlety than they generally would. That piece of paper
and
> >the Draco foundation can't stop anything.
>
> Well actually it can. The traditional way that a dragon's stuff was
divided
> up was that other dragons fought over his horde until he had taken what he
> wanted. When D kicked off, he gave some of it to other dragons, and then
> gave the rest of it away to who ever he felt like.

Yes. And they can take it back if they want to.

> One of the reasons that dragons are so feared is because they are so old,
> secretive and alien in thought. If they try to just muscle their way in
and
> take stuff, they become much smaller beings. Not to mention that a lot of
> the stuff can't be taken. How does Alamaise swoop down and take a million
> shares of Ares stock? He doesn't. Vogel owns them. Since so much of what
> the Draco Foundation controls is intangible or well protected, the dragons
> really can't just take it. Now they can buy, steal or threaten their way
> into getting want they want, but so can any other powerful group.

Well, the intangibles would be tougher to take. But not impossible. Not at
all. And the tangibles? Don't make me laugh. If a Dragon wants something, he
*will* get it, unless the person or persons holding it are older, wiser,
more powerful, more patient, and have more resources than he does. Giggle.
Giggle.

> >Dunkelzahn did break *a* tradition, and *won* a game he was playing.
[Just
> >as so many had in the past, like Denairastas the Outcast and Alamais.]
> >
> >But that has nothing to do with the Dragons taking over the world in the
> >wake of the fear caused by the comet, which was your original premise.
[This
> >is one of the reasons to quote previous posts.] Again I say, if a Dragon
> >wants to take something, the only real thing stopping him is another
Dragon.
>
> No, just any sufficiently powered/motivated/wealthy enough foe. Unlike
some
> other systems, dragons in SR don't just sit around in their cave waiting
> for adventurers. However, they aren't the be all end all either. They can
> be opposed by other dragons, corps, the ubiquitous Immortal Elves, a lot
of
> governments, and a few other miscellaneous groups like Winternight or The
> Black Lodge.

A few governments, a few elves [if they band together], and maybe, maybe, a
couple of your secret societies. A Great, though, is likely to see all of
that coming a mile away, and either depart, or simply destroy.

Now, I'm going to get all non-canon again, but if you want to hold SR as a
contiguous, logical whole, you have to accept ED. And in ED, which is the
only place Dragons are really explained, you also have to remember that, so
long as there are no Horrors around, Dragons can *directly manipulate
magic.* No spells, no drain, no nothing. They simply grab ahold of reality
and move it around. If a Dragon wants everyone who was ever a member of Ares
to die, you can bet that person will, given enough time, and a lack of
interference.

Yes, I'm making it sound like Dragons are these huge, immensely powerful
foes, who cannot be defeated by non-Dragons unless there are in incredible
amounts of special circumstances. There's a reason I sound like that;
because that's what I mean.
Message no. 14
From: Frank Pelletier (Trinity) fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:16:31 -0500
"abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com> once wrote,

(snipped)

> A few governments, a few elves [if they band together], and maybe, maybe,
a
> couple of your secret societies. A Great, though, is likely to see all of
> that coming a mile away, and either depart, or simply destroy.
>
> Now, I'm going to get all non-canon again, but if you want to hold SR as a
> contiguous, logical whole, you have to accept ED. And in ED, which is the
> only place Dragons are really explained, you also have to remember that,
so
> long as there are no Horrors around, Dragons can *directly manipulate
> magic.* No spells, no drain, no nothing. They simply grab ahold of reality
> and move it around. If a Dragon wants everyone who was ever a member of
Ares
> to die, you can bet that person will, given enough time, and a lack of
> interference.

And where, oh where, did you get that great concept? This is not Mage.
Speaking of that game, I kinda liked it, 'til I bought "Masters of the Art"
this week. Create Universe anyone? Change Destiny? What the fuck was
that?

Same reaction here. Where in the hell did you find that gem? "Dragons can
alter reality to their whim". Yessiree, Jim Bob, they sure can.

Next time, AE, just put a big "HOUSE RULE" tag on your comments, okay?
Since you're so fond of Earthdawn, I'll let you in on a little secret...
Greats have stats. What? They're not Gods? Nope. They have stats.
Hell, they were killable, but it took a bunch of high-circle freaks.

Now. Are Great Dragons weak? Of course not, they are immensily powerful
beings, wise beyond imagination, with knowledge accumulated over the
millenias. Are they omnipotent god-like miracle workers? No.

Take Lofwyr. His physical might or magical threats are nothing compared to
what he controls, the biggest mega in all of SR. He works through
intermediaries, agents, he works politics like he was Machiavelli. Am I
afraid of what Lofwyr could do to me? Not really, he'd never bother. Am I
afraid of what SK's agents could do to me? Hell yes.

Now, by that token, let's take Damien Knight. Is he less powerful than
Lofwyr? Physically, mystically, of course he is. But that doesn't matter,
because he controls Ares, another mighty megacorp.

It's kinda like the two superpowers in the 70s. They didn't face off
directly, they acted through intermediaries (Afghanistan conflict, Angola,
Vietnam, Korea, etc.). The played others like pawns, using the world as
giant chess game.

So who cares if you're human or dragon or IE? It's what you control that
really counts.

> Yes, I'm making it sound like Dragons are these huge, immensely powerful
> foes, who cannot be defeated by non-Dragons unless there are in incredible
> amounts of special circumstances. There's a reason I sound like that;
> because that's what I mean.

Again, take Earthdawn. They gave out STATS. Sure didn't make it sound like
they didn't want them to be immortal and unbeatable. And, a correction,
since I'm such an asshole. There are non-dragon things that can beat
Dragons. They're called Horrors (Verjigorm comes to mind).

But since I have long separated ED and SR, I won't go there...

Trinity
---------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
"Tout les matins du monde sont sans retour" - Marin Marais

Trin on the Undernet and EFNet
Message no. 15
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:33:31 -0500
From: "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)" <fpelletier@******.usherb.ca>


> "abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com> once wrote,
>
> (snipped)
>
> > A few governments, a few elves [if they band together], and maybe,
maybe,
> a
> > couple of your secret societies. A Great, though, is likely to see all
of
> > that coming a mile away, and either depart, or simply destroy.
> >
> > Now, I'm going to get all non-canon again, but if you want to hold SR as
a
> > contiguous, logical whole, you have to accept ED. And in ED, which is
the
> > only place Dragons are really explained, you also have to remember that,
> so
> > long as there are no Horrors around, Dragons can *directly manipulate
> > magic.* No spells, no drain, no nothing. They simply grab ahold of
reality
> > and move it around. If a Dragon wants everyone who was ever a member of
> Ares
> > to die, you can bet that person will, given enough time, and a lack of
> > interference.
>
> And where, oh where, did you get that great concept? This is not Mage.
> Speaking of that game, I kinda liked it, 'til I bought "Masters of the
Art"
> this week. Create Universe anyone? Change Destiny? What the fuck was
> that?
>
> Same reaction here. Where in the hell did you find that gem? "Dragons
can
> alter reality to their whim". Yessiree, Jim Bob, they sure can.
>
> Next time, AE, just put a big "HOUSE RULE" tag on your comments, okay?
> Since you're so fond of Earthdawn, I'll let you in on a little secret...
> Greats have stats. What? They're not Gods? Nope. They have stats.
> Hell, they were killable, but it took a bunch of high-circle freaks.

Two things. One, I did say this was non-SR-canon. Read. I hear that helps.
Two, I got it from ED. From Dragons.

Yes, they had stats. Yes, they could be killed. However, the only reason
they couldn't directly manipulate mana was the existance of Corruption.
Also, there are limits to even a Dragon's concentration, which limits his or
her ability to, sat, Create Universe.

> Now. Are Great Dragons weak? Of course not, they are immensily powerful
> beings, wise beyond imagination, with knowledge accumulated over the
> millenias. Are they omnipotent god-like miracle workers? No.

Did I say they were? No.

> Take Lofwyr. His physical might or magical threats are nothing compared
to
> what he controls, the biggest mega in all of SR. He works through
> intermediaries, agents, he works politics like he was Machiavelli. Am I
> afraid of what Lofwyr could do to me? Not really, he'd never bother. Am
I
> afraid of what SK's agents could do to me? Hell yes.
>
> Now, by that token, let's take Damien Knight. Is he less powerful than
> Lofwyr? Physically, mystically, of course he is. But that doesn't
matter,
> because he controls Ares, another mighty megacorp.
>
> It's kinda like the two superpowers in the 70s. They didn't face off
> directly, they acted through intermediaries (Afghanistan conflict, Angola,
> Vietnam, Korea, etc.). The played others like pawns, using the world as
> giant chess game.

Yes. And do you doubt who would win in a fight between the two? Particulary
if Lofwyr himself were involved. He knew someone, once, who was Called the
Eater of Cities. And Lofwyr could have kicked his ass.

> So who cares if you're human or dragon or IE? It's what you control that
> really counts.

Don't make me laugh.

> > Yes, I'm making it sound like Dragons are these huge, immensely powerful
> > foes, who cannot be defeated by non-Dragons unless there are in
incredible
> > amounts of special circumstances. There's a reason I sound like that;
> > because that's what I mean.
>
> Again, take Earthdawn. They gave out STATS. Sure didn't make it sound
like
> they didn't want them to be immortal and unbeatable. And, a correction,
> since I'm such an asshole. There are non-dragon things that can beat
> Dragons. They're called Horrors (Verjigorm comes to mind).

Yep. Which is why they can't Create Universe without going insane.
Corruption. See above.

> But since I have long separated ED and SR, I won't go there...

Well, then you're bound to disagree. Why don't you just use the stats given
in SR, then, and PCs will be able to kill any 20,000 year old Dragon they
want? SR doesn't *have* to make sense, but I like it to.

Remember, Dragons ruled the world once, in the Second Age. And if they so
chose, they could do it again. Hey, wait; they do.
Message no. 16
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 15:43:36 -0500
At 03:00 PM 12/3/99 -0500, abortion_engine posited:
> > No, but the rest of the world could have. People in SR leave Dragons
>pretty
> > much alone because they are big, powerful, secretive and scary. But if one
> > really started to get out of control, like blowing up entire cities for
> > example, do you think that the military of whatever nation you were
>talking
> > about wouldn't put all of their top magical forces, tanks, infantry, etc
>on
> > stopping him?
>
>Riiiight. Wait, no. Every time someone has attempted to kill a Great after
>that sort of destruction, they've failed. Tehran, anyone?

That is about the only case that I can think of. And that happened not too
far into the Awakening when there weren't too many people who could use
magic. Now some 50 years later there are a hell of a lot of people who
could do something about it. In Seattle there are about 5000 fully capable
mages, in a city about the same size as Tehran. If there were that many
people capable of deciding to try and stop on dragon, great or not, do you
think he would be able to stop them? All of them???

> > Well actually it can. The traditional way that a dragon's stuff was
>divided
> > up was that other dragons fought over his horde until he had taken what he
> > wanted. When D kicked off, he gave some of it to other dragons, and then
> > gave the rest of it away to who ever he felt like.
>
>Yes. And they can take it back if they want to.

Do you know what kind of paranoia and outright hatred of dragons that would
cause? There are only, what, a few dozen greats tops? And maybe a few
hundred regular dragons? There are something like 6 billion people on the
planet. At .01% of the pop being full mages, that works out to be 60
million mages! Enough of them get together, because the dragons feel like
they can do whatever they want, and all bets are off. And that's not even
including other Awakened, let alone mundanes. In 2061, you can do a whole
lot better than a knight on a horse.

> > One of the reasons that dragons are so feared is because they are so old,
> > secretive and alien in thought. If they try to just muscle their way in
>and
> > take stuff, they become much smaller beings. Not to mention that a lot of
> > the stuff can't be taken. How does Alamaise swoop down and take a million
> > shares of Ares stock? He doesn't. Vogel owns them. Since so much of what
> > the Draco Foundation controls is intangible or well protected, the dragons
> > really can't just take it. Now they can buy, steal or threaten their way
> > into getting want they want, but so can any other powerful group.
>
>Well, the intangibles would be tougher to take. But not impossible. Not at
>all. And the tangibles? Don't make me laugh. If a Dragon wants something, he
>*will* get it, unless the person or persons holding it are older, wiser,
>more powerful, more patient, and have more resources than he does. Giggle.
>Giggle.

Again, he can only do that if he starts playing by dragon rules, and not by
human rules. The most successful greats have either stayed out of the world
around them completely or tried to take over within the context of the
human world. If they break out of that, they invite the world (as in
everyone) to treat them as if they are a real threat.

>A few governments, a few elves [if they band together], and maybe, maybe, a
>couple of your secret societies. A Great, though, is likely to see all of
>that coming a mile away, and either depart, or simply destroy.

If a secret society like those above is good enough to stay secret, why
can't they see it coming from a mile away? And where can a great dragon
depart to? Its getting awfully hard to completely disappear in this world.

>Now, I'm going to get all non-canon again, but if you want to hold SR as a
>contiguous, logical whole, you have to accept ED. And in ED, which is the
>only place Dragons are really explained, you also have to remember that, so
>long as there are no Horrors around, Dragons can *directly manipulate
>magic.* No spells, no drain, no nothing. They simply grab ahold of reality
>and move it around. If a Dragon wants everyone who was ever a member of Ares
>to die, you can bet that person will, given enough time, and a lack of
>interference.

Okay, so they can directly manipulate magic. That's big in their favor. But
they are also solitary, prone to extremely slow breeding, and few in
number. Humans can't directly manipulate the magic, but there are a lot of
them, they go for power as quick as they can, and highly adaptable.

>Yes, I'm making it sound like Dragons are these huge, immensely powerful
>foes, who cannot be defeated by non-Dragons unless there are in incredible
>amounts of special circumstances. There's a reason I sound like that;
>because that's what I mean.

If that's the way you play your game, that's cool. But its not the only way
to look at it.

I want to stress, one of the reasons that some greats (like D or Lowfyr)
are so successful is that they are playing the human game. They play it
very well, and that's why they are coming out on top. But it does hamper
them in certain ways. If Lowfyr gets pissed off at another company, he
can't just go blow up their HQ. He buys it and fires everyone If he wants
some talisman that doesn't belong to him, he can't just eat the guy and fly
off with it. He has to hire shadowrunners like everyone else. :)

But this is the same way that say, Damien Knight plays. If Lowfyr decided
to start breathing flame, slaying everyone that worked for Ares, and
generally behave like it was the good old days, he's going to have a big
problem. Sure it might seem like he's indestructible. But what happens when
5 or 6 Initiate mages from the Winternight work together to break down his
physical barrier right before that Harpoon anti-ship missile slams into his
midsection? Is a great good enough to take on a ship-scale explosive
designed to be anti-armor?

Back in ED they were the baddest on the block. But in SR that's not
necessarily true. Back then there were a few million people to terrify, now
there are billions. Before they had to worry about a few people at a time
attacking them. Now there's BattleTac to coordinate attacks. In ED it was
magic swords, now he has to worry about anti-armor missiles, battlefield
lasers, and even orbital Thor strikes! Back then, he was the smartest guy
around, who could think ten steps in front of everyone. Now there's an
entire Matrix that has all of the data of the world (more or less) and
provides instant communication. There are all sorts of data-mining programs
that can be used to predict the way that elections, the stock market, what
aver can go.

If you look at SR, they have a lot of peers that they didn't have in ED.
One of their biggest assets (direct magic use) can't be utilized very well
since it puts them out of the context of the rest of the world. Look at
what happened with the bugs. If the dragons started playing the way you're
implying they do, wouldn't they get just as big a slap-down as what
happened to the Invae? And its would even be easier since there are a hell
of a lot more bugs than dragons.

(As an aside, are dragons always astrally active? If so, its gotta suck to
go to Chicago. And I'm sure that if someone decided to seriously work a
dragon, getting some Fab III strain would at the top of the list).


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 17
From: Frank Pelletier (Trinity) fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 15:42:37 -0500
"abortion_engine" <abortion_engine@*******.com> once wrote,

(snipped the mystic blah blah blah)

> Well, then you're bound to disagree. Why don't you just use the stats
given
> in SR, then, and PCs will be able to kill any 20,000 year old Dragon they
> want? SR doesn't *have* to make sense, but I like it to.

They won't be able to kill it. They won't even be able to reach it.

This ties in exactly to the point I made. It doesn't matter how personally
powerful you are, because it's nothing compared to what you control.

Bad example, but take Bill Clinton. He's sure not the brightest guy on
Earth. He's not the most charismatic. He's not the most fit, the fastest,
the strongest.

But the's the most powerful man on Earth. Because of what he controls.

I know, I know... "But a Dragon is an ages-old killing machine, wrapped in
eldritch energies and destructive power". I agree. But as I said, all that
power means nothing when you control a corp worth a couple trillion dollars,
probably more. So why should Lofwyr move from his corporate lair when all
he has to do is say "Go kill him", and hundreds of his peoples go out and do
his every single whim.

I think you're looking at Dragons too much like D&D omnipotent beings. They
won't delve into combat, breathing fire, wreaking havoc. They'll have other
people do it for them. That's real power.

And you said the magical word "Use the stats given in SR". Exactly. So
saying that dragons can do any wiz-bang magical doohickey without even
thinking is automatically non-canon, and irrelevant. The point is, I don't
even care about his stats. Frankly, you shouldn't either. Because anyone
who tries to kill Lofwyr will have to go through the massed might of SK.
And I don't care how powerful you are, you can't go through a megacorp.

> Remember, Dragons ruled the world once, in the Second Age. And if they so
> chose, they could do it again. Hey, wait; they do.

They rule parts of it. But this time around, they have to share with the
ambitious lower races.

Trinity
---------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
fpelletier@******.usherb.ca
"Tout les matins du monde sont sans retour" - Marin Marais

Trin on the Undernet and EFNet
Message no. 18
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 16:00:10 -0500
At 03:33 PM 12/3/99 -0500, abortion_engine posited:
>From: "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)" <fpelletier@******.usherb.ca>
> > Next time, AE, just put a big "HOUSE RULE" tag on your comments, okay?
> > Since you're so fond of Earthdawn, I'll let you in on a little secret...
> > Greats have stats. What? They're not Gods? Nope. They have stats.
> > Hell, they were killable, but it took a bunch of high-circle freaks.
>
>Two things. One, I did say this was non-SR-canon. Read. I hear that helps.
>Two, I got it from ED. From Dragons.
>
>Yes, they had stats. Yes, they could be killed. However, the only reason
>they couldn't directly manipulate mana was the existance of Corruption.
>Also, there are limits to even a Dragon's concentration, which limits his or
>her ability to, sat, Create Universe.

Okay, I agree with you on all of those points. I figured that the direct
manipulation of mana for magic was in a section I didn't get to yet, and
take your word on it. I also think, and it looks like we're on the same
page, that even with that ability there are limits to it.

> > Now. Are Great Dragons weak? Of course not, they are immensily powerful
> > beings, wise beyond imagination, with knowledge accumulated over the
> > millenias. Are they omnipotent god-like miracle workers? No.
>
>Did I say they were? No.

You did imply that they were beyond everyone else because they were great
dragons. I do have a problem like that. If you're saying that they are on
par with other power players in the world, then I'll agree with you.

> > Take Lofwyr. His physical might or magical threats are nothing compared
>to
> > what he controls, the biggest mega in all of SR. He works through
> > intermediaries, agents, he works politics like he was Machiavelli. Am I
> > afraid of what Lofwyr could do to me? Not really, he'd never bother. Am
>I
> > afraid of what SK's agents could do to me? Hell yes.
> >
> > Now, by that token, let's take Damien Knight. Is he less powerful than
> > Lofwyr? Physically, mystically, of course he is. But that doesn't
>matter,
> > because he controls Ares, another mighty megacorp.
> >
> > It's kinda like the two superpowers in the 70s. They didn't face off
> > directly, they acted through intermediaries (Afghanistan conflict, Angola,
> > Vietnam, Korea, etc.). The played others like pawns, using the world as
> > giant chess game.
>
>Yes. And do you doubt who would win in a fight between the two? Particulary
>if Lofwyr himself were involved. He knew someone, once, who was Called the
>Eater of Cities. And Lofwyr could have kicked his ass.

I have to agree with Trinity here. A fight between the Ares and SK corps
would probably be a draw. SK is bigger, but Ares has more weapons tech.
Lowfyr could easily eat Damien in a second if it was just the two of them.
But it would never happen because Damien would never let it happen. And
Lowfyr is too smart to let it happen. If he decided to "get medieval" on
Damien and Ares, it opens him up to attacks by the Corporate Court, attacks
by Ares itself, and probably even by the UCAS military. He's much more
content to win the human game by their rules, since it gives him protection.
> > So who cares if you're human or dragon or IE? It's what you control that
> > really counts.
>
>Don't make me laugh.

Again, I have to agree with Trinity. It doesn't matter what you are, its
what you control. Lowfyr isn't a player because he's old and strong, he's
there because he stayed quiet for years learning the game before he made
the power play for SK. Once he had that, he continued to play it well to
keep SK on top.

> > But since I have long separated ED and SR, I won't go there...
>
>Well, then you're bound to disagree. Why don't you just use the stats given
>in SR, then, and PCs will be able to kill any 20,000 year old Dragon they
>want? SR doesn't *have* to make sense, but I like it to.

I don't think PC's would ever be able to kill a great dragon. Not beacuse
they can't be killed, but because it would be the wrong way to do it. The
groups that I mentioned earlier would be in the right league to do away
with a dragon. A PC is in the bush leagues at best, and wouldn't have the
power to play in the majors. But, there are a lot more players in the
majors than just the greats.

>Remember, Dragons ruled the world once, in the Second Age. And if they so
>chose, they could do it again. Hey, wait; they do.

They had the second age. In ED, there were all sorts of other groups that
shared it. In the sixth, they seem to be a big minority. One dragon rules
one of the megas. That leaves 9 others controlled by humans. And a lot of
countries, and secret societies, and the underworld, etc...

I just don't see how a few dragons could stand up to so many other players,
and even more important, that they would even want to try.



Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 19
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:17:05 EST
In a message dated 12/3/99 4:11:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sommers@*****.edu writes:

> >A few governments, a few elves [if they band together], and maybe, maybe, a
> >couple of your secret societies. A Great, though, is likely to see all of
> >that coming a mile away, and either depart, or simply destroy.
>
> If a secret society like those above is good enough to stay secret, why
> can't they see it coming from a mile away? And where can a great dragon
> depart to? Its getting awfully hard to completely disappear in this world.
>


Not to intrude into this merry-go-round of Jerry Falwell, but Great Dragons
are capable of human form, and they can probably mask themselves really,
really, reeeeally well.





-Twist

"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."
Message no. 20
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:26:18 EST
In a message dated 12/3/99 4:11:50 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sommers@*****.edu writes:

> If the dragons started playing the way you're
> implying they do, wouldn't they get just as big a slap-down as what
> happened to the Invae?


The only thing that stopped the bugs, I believe, is the sub-tac nuke that the
small group managed to get inside. The bugs *wanted* to stay in the CZ. It
was the perfect breeding ground. If it had been left to the Joe Blows
outside the wall, the breeding would have been completed and 1,000 new bugs
would have poured out into the CZ, taking it completely over.


However, all this high exposure is deadly for anyone. You really have to be
some kind of brain-dead, I'm-still-working-my-personal-power-complex-out
immortal to think pushing people around will work. Do that and you have
enemies from every corner.

But all this didn't stop Lofwyr from zipping over to Leo's pad and destroying
it, along with poisoning the golden boy.






-Twist
"We've never backed away from evil incarnate before, Peter, why this?"
"Evil incarnate can't sue, Frank."
Message no. 21
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:46:02 -0500
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.edu>


> At 03:00 PM 12/3/99 -0500, abortion_engine posited:
> <snip>
> >Riiiight. Wait, no. Every time someone has attempted to kill a Great
after
> >that sort of destruction, they've failed. Tehran, anyone?
>
> That is about the only case that I can think of. And that happened not too
> far into the Awakening when there weren't too many people who could use
> magic. Now some 50 years later there are a hell of a lot of people who
> could do something about it. In Seattle there are about 5000 fully capable
> mages, in a city about the same size as Tehran. If there were that many
> people capable of deciding to try and stop on dragon, great or not, do you
> think he would be able to stop them? All of them???

*I* do. You don't. Can I kill 5,000 flies? Yes. Can I kill 5,000 bees before
they sting me to death? Not unless I plan ahead.

> > > Well actually it can. The traditional way that a dragon's stuff was
> >divided
> > > up was that other dragons fought over his horde until he had taken
what he
> > > wanted. When D kicked off, he gave some of it to other dragons, and
then
> > > gave the rest of it away to who ever he felt like.
> >
> >Yes. And they can take it back if they want to.
>
> Do you know what kind of paranoia and outright hatred of dragons that
would
> cause? There are only, what, a few dozen greats tops? And maybe a few
> hundred regular dragons? There are something like 6 billion people on the
> planet. At .01% of the pop being full mages, that works out to be 60
> million mages! Enough of them get together, because the dragons feel like
> they can do whatever they want, and all bets are off. And that's not even
> including other Awakened, let alone mundanes. In 2061, you can do a whole
> lot better than a knight on a horse.

Yes. A good point. I agree. Keeping in mind, of course, that not one of
those 60 million could conceivably come close to harming a Great alone.
Together? Yes. Unless I *really* see it coming, and do something *really*
crazy.

> > > One of the reasons that dragons are so feared is because they are so
old,
> > > secretive and alien in thought. If they try to just muscle their way
in
> >and
> > > take stuff, they become much smaller beings. Not to mention that a lot
of
> > > the stuff can't be taken. How does Alamaise swoop down and take a
million
> > > shares of Ares stock? He doesn't. Vogel owns them. Since so much of
what
> > > the Draco Foundation controls is intangible or well protected, the
dragons
> > > really can't just take it. Now they can buy, steal or threaten their
way
> > > into getting want they want, but so can any other powerful group.
> >
> >Well, the intangibles would be tougher to take. But not impossible. Not
at
> >all. And the tangibles? Don't make me laugh. If a Dragon wants something,
he
> >*will* get it, unless the person or persons holding it are older, wiser,
> >more powerful, more patient, and have more resources than he does.
Giggle.
> >Giggle.
>
> Again, he can only do that if he starts playing by dragon rules, and not
by
> human rules. The most successful greats have either stayed out of the
world
> around them completely or tried to take over within the context of the
> human world. If they break out of that, they invite the world (as in
> everyone) to treat them as if they are a real threat.

Which means they win; the Dragons have what they want. Because they're not
stupid enough to play by our rules. Which makes us both right.

> >A few governments, a few elves [if they band together], and maybe, maybe,
a
> >couple of your secret societies. A Great, though, is likely to see all of
> >that coming a mile away, and either depart, or simply destroy.
>
> If a secret society like those above is good enough to stay secret, why
> can't they see it coming from a mile away?

Because humans are really, really stupid. That's why.

> And where can a great dragon
> depart to? Its getting awfully hard to completely disappear in this world.

Again, we're getting into *really* crazy. But I can think of a place or two.
And I know if I can, they'd be able to.

> >Now, I'm going to get all non-canon again, but if you want to hold SR as
a
> >contiguous, logical whole, you have to accept ED. And in ED, which is the
> >only place Dragons are really explained, you also have to remember that,
so
> >long as there are no Horrors around, Dragons can *directly manipulate
> >magic.* No spells, no drain, no nothing. They simply grab ahold of
reality
> >and move it around. If a Dragon wants everyone who was ever a member of
Ares
> >to die, you can bet that person will, given enough time, and a lack of
> >interference.
>
> Okay, so they can directly manipulate magic. That's big in their favor.
But
> they are also solitary, prone to extremely slow breeding, and few in
> number. Humans can't directly manipulate the magic, but there are a lot of
> them, they go for power as quick as they can, and highly adaptable.

Yes. I concede that if the entire population of the planet decided to smash
Lofwyr, it would work. Probably.

However, back to the original point, they cannot take over the world just
because of the comet. Hey, wait, isn't that what we've both been saying? I
can't even figure out how this got this turned around.

> >Yes, I'm making it sound like Dragons are these huge, immensely powerful
> >foes, who cannot be defeated by non-Dragons unless there are in
incredible
> >amounts of special circumstances. There's a reason I sound like that;
> >because that's what I mean.
>
> If that's the way you play your game, that's cool. But its not the only
way
> to look at it.

No, it's not. But I keep 20,000 years of history in mind, while you keep 50.
Which is perfectly acceptable; I'm pretty sure FASA doesn't print in SR3
that you *must* figure ED into all your roleplaying. <g> Even though I think
they should. <g>

> I want to stress, one of the reasons that some greats (like D or Lowfyr)
> are so successful is that they are playing the human game. They play it
> very well, and that's why they are coming out on top. But it does hamper
> them in certain ways. If Lowfyr gets pissed off at another company, he
> can't just go blow up their HQ. He buys it and fires everyone If he wants
> some talisman that doesn't belong to him, he can't just eat the guy and
fly
> off with it. He has to hire shadowrunners like everyone else. :)
>
> But this is the same way that say, Damien Knight plays. If Lowfyr decided
> to start breathing flame, slaying everyone that worked for Ares, and
> generally behave like it was the good old days, he's going to have a big
> problem. Sure it might seem like he's indestructible. But what happens
when
> 5 or 6 Initiate mages from the Winternight work together to break down his
> physical barrier right before that Harpoon anti-ship missile slams into
his
> midsection? Is a great good enough to take on a ship-scale explosive
> designed to be anti-armor?

See, here's the problem; I don't believe that any 5 or 6 people with *at
most* 50 years of experience with magic each, could possibly defeat
something that is over 20,000 years old. I mean, come on.

> Back in ED they were the baddest on the block. But in SR that's not
> necessarily true. Back then there were a few million people to terrify,
now
> there are billions. Before they had to worry about a few people at a time
> attacking them. Now there's BattleTac to coordinate attacks. In ED it was
> magic swords, now he has to worry about anti-armor missiles, battlefield
> lasers, and even orbital Thor strikes! Back then, he was the smartest guy
> around, who could think ten steps in front of everyone. Now there's an
> entire Matrix that has all of the data of the world (more or less) and
> provides instant communication. There are all sorts of data-mining
programs
> that can be used to predict the way that elections, the stock market, what
> aver can go.

And like the man said, technology is the big secret to defeating the big
magical threat. Keeping in mind, of course, that the THOR would not only
miss Lofwyr, it would probably turn out to be owned by him. As you say,
there's an advantage to playing both games.

> If you look at SR, they have a lot of peers that they didn't have in ED.
> One of their biggest assets (direct magic use) can't be utilized very well
> since it puts them out of the context of the rest of the world. Look at
> what happened with the bugs. If the dragons started playing the way you're
> implying they do, wouldn't they get just as big a slap-down as what
> happened to the Invae? And its would even be easier since there are a hell
> of a lot more bugs than dragons.

Erm, I'm not certain how they'd smack down the Dragons. The techniques used
against the Invae wouldn't really be very effective, IMO. But I think you've
just come up with a pretty exciting idea for a threaded adventure / event
book; Dragon War. [Eek. That's a terrible name. Somebody smack me.] But
wouldn't it be neat if one of the Greats got too big for its britches? And
took over a city or something? It would be nice to use, say, Sirrug or
someone else that doesn't live in one of the already-established locales, as
this would allow for some "place" background.

Oh, wait; we can't do that. Everyone but me is sick of Dragons, magic, and
threats that have to do with either one of them. Whoops. It sounded nice.
Maybe I'll see what could be done about writing a netbook about it. <sigh>

> (As an aside, are dragons always astrally active? If so, its gotta suck to
> go to Chicago. And I'm sure that if someone decided to seriously work a
> dragon, getting some Fab III strain would at the top of the list).

"No, thank you. I'm-ow!-fine. This really isn't-ow!-bothering me at-ow!-all.
I can just-ow!-stand here all-ow!-day. Ow! Damn! Oh, forget this." [Sound of
enormous burst of flame erupting from Dragon's mouth.] "Ahh. Much better."

<G>
Message no. 22
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:52:25 -0500
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.edu>
> At 03:33 PM 12/3/99 -0500, abortion_engine posited:
> >From: "Frank Pelletier (Trinity)" <fpelletier@******.usherb.ca>
> <snip>
> > > Now. Are Great Dragons weak? Of course not, they are immensily
powerful
> > > beings, wise beyond imagination, with knowledge accumulated over the
> > > millenias. Are they omnipotent god-like miracle workers? No.
> >
> >Did I say they were? No.
>
> You did imply that they were beyond everyone else because they were great
> dragons. I do have a problem like that. If you're saying that they are on
> par with other power players in the world, then I'll agree with you.

I don't. I think they make the other power players eat their dust. But
that's me. I tend to think being as old as the planet gives you an edge. :)

> > > Take Lofwyr. His physical might or magical threats are nothing
compared
> >to
> > > what he controls, the biggest mega in all of SR. He works through
> > > intermediaries, agents, he works politics like he was Machiavelli. Am
I
> > > afraid of what Lofwyr could do to me? Not really, he'd never bother.
Am
> >I
> > > afraid of what SK's agents could do to me? Hell yes.
> > >
> > > Now, by that token, let's take Damien Knight. Is he less powerful
than
> > > Lofwyr? Physically, mystically, of course he is. But that doesn't
> >matter,
> > > because he controls Ares, another mighty megacorp.
> > >
> > > It's kinda like the two superpowers in the 70s. They didn't face off
> > > directly, they acted through intermediaries (Afghanistan conflict,
Angola,
> > > Vietnam, Korea, etc.). The played others like pawns, using the world
as
> > > giant chess game.
> >
> >Yes. And do you doubt who would win in a fight between the two?
Particulary
> >if Lofwyr himself were involved. He knew someone, once, who was Called
the
> >Eater of Cities. And Lofwyr could have kicked his ass.
>
> I have to agree with Trinity here. A fight between the Ares and SK corps
> would probably be a draw. SK is bigger, but Ares has more weapons tech.
> Lowfyr could easily eat Damien in a second if it was just the two of them.
> But it would never happen because Damien would never let it happen. And
> Lowfyr is too smart to let it happen. If he decided to "get medieval" on
> Damien and Ares, it opens him up to attacks by the Corporate Court,
attacks
> by Ares itself, and probably even by the UCAS military. He's much more
> content to win the human game by their rules, since it gives him
protection.

<Giggle> I disagree. Strongly. I think Lofwyr could let S-K dissolve and not
lose much, primarily since he can just meander off and come back in 200
years when Damien Knight is nothing more than a bad memory. Time, my friend,
wins all battles.

> > > So who cares if you're human or dragon or IE? It's what you control
that
> > > really counts.
> >
> >Don't make me laugh.
>
> Again, I have to agree with Trinity. It doesn't matter what you are, its
> what you control. Lowfyr isn't a player because he's old and strong, he's
> there because he stayed quiet for years learning the game before he made
> the power play for SK. Once he had that, he continued to play it well to
> keep SK on top.

<Giggle> I disagree. Strongly. I think Lofwyr could let S-K dissolve and not
lose much, primarily since he can just meander off and come back in 200
years when Damien Knight is nothing more than a bad memory. Time, my friend,
wins all battles.

> <snip>
> >Remember, Dragons ruled the world once, in the Second Age. And if they so
> >chose, they could do it again. Hey, wait; they do.
>
> They had the second age. In ED, there were all sorts of other groups that
> shared it. In the sixth, they seem to be a big minority. One dragon rules
> one of the megas. That leaves 9 others controlled by humans. And a lot of
> countries, and secret societies, and the underworld, etc...

In ED, one group of people...who were they? Oh, yeah, the most powerful
empire in the world, the Therans. Anyway, they tried to challenge the
Dragons, and even killed, what, four of them? And then they stopped, when
the Dragons made very clear who was going to whip whose ass and take whose
clothes.

And there is no one, no one, in SR that comes even vaguely close to the
physical and magical power of Thera. Thankfully. In SR, it would just be
stupid.

> I just don't see how a few dragons could stand up to so many other
players,
> and even more important, that they would even want to try.

Which was my original point. <Sigh> I still can't figure out how this got
all turned around.
Message no. 23
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:15:17 -0600
>As you seem to be quite interested in both Dragons and Dunkelzahn's Will, I
>would suggest you read the unpublished sourcebook Dragons, available on
>FASA's website, which is the definitive FASA work on the subject, as well
as
>the basis for much of Dunkelzahn's Will. I highly recommend it for all SR
>gamemasters; it has given me many, many SR plotlines, including Revenge,
>which is currently being run by the "Away" group in Michigan, much of which
>revolves around the resurrected Alamais. Ahh...

First, thankyou. I've been markedly lax in my interneting, so I will
certainly go look at it, probabbly to the woe of my players..lol My original
point, maybe it's gotten warped, was that the comet could cause the dragons
to scramble to claim as many resources as they can, which in turn can cause
world wide instability, all perhaps kicked off by the comet..
Message no. 24
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:26:55 -0600
>I have to agree with Trinity here. A fight between the Ares and SK corps
>would probably be a draw. SK is bigger, but Ares has more weapons tech.
>Lowfyr could easily eat Damien in a second if it was just the two of them.
>But it would never happen because Damien would never let it happen. And
>Lowfyr is too smart to let it happen. If he decided to "get medieval" on
>Damien and Ares, it opens him up to attacks by the Corporate Court, attacks
>by Ares itself, and probably even by the UCAS military. He's much more
>content to win the human game by their rules, since it gives him
protection.


EEK!... Besides Thor systems hurt and I don't care who you are...OUCH!!

Brent
Message no. 25
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 04:35:17 -0600
>However, all this high exposure is deadly for anyone. You really have to
be
>some kind of brain-dead, I'm-still-working-my-personal-power-complex-out
>immortal to think pushing people around will work. Do that and you have
>enemies from every corner.
>
>But all this didn't stop Lofwyr from zipping over to Leo's pad and
destroying
>it, along with poisoning the golden boy.


True... and good point. But I think Lofywyr is going to be in part the cause
for a draconic scale subterfuge war that may end with him and another dragon
in a deathgrip, because he killed Leo, and who Leo's friends are. But then
again its just my opinion. That and 60cents will get you a cup of coffee.
Brent
Message no. 26
From: Venusaur elfman@******.com
Subject: Great Spirits (was: Re: Ok, my first real post.)
Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 16:00:36 -0600
>
> True... and good point. But I think Lofywyr is going to be in part the cause
> for a draconic scale subterfuge war that may end with him and another dragon
> in a deathgrip, because he killed Leo, and who Leo's friends are. But then
> again its just my opinion. That and 60cents will get you a cup of coffee.


that made me think.....(scary huh?) well, isnt htere a dragon working
for/with Raku, who was Leo's good buddy? or is it just in my head and
consequently in my game?

Further Reading

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