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Message no. 1
From: "Ryan W. Bolduan" <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Grenade Questions
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:01:41 -0600
I have a question that I asked Blackjack a few weeks ago, and he was as
clueless as I. There is a character in the group I run that uses
neuro-stun grenades almost exclusively. Unfortunately I cannot find rules
for gas grenades anywhere. I know the smoke grenades rules exist, and
those are the rules we have used the one time the grenades have come up,
but I was wondering if anybody has any house rules/solutions for this
problem. Thanks in advance.

--
Wherever you go, there you are!
Ryan Bolduan
Message no. 2
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 03:14:54 +0000
> I have a question that I asked Blackjack a few weeks ago, and he was as
> clueless as I. There is a character in the group I run that uses
> neuro-stun grenades almost exclusively. Unfortunately I cannot find rules
> for gas grenades anywhere. I know the smoke grenades rules exist, and
> those are the rules we have used the one time the grenades have come up,
> but I was wondering if anybody has any house rules/solutions for this
> problem. Thanks in advance.

My solution was to make gas grenades largely unavailable. ;)
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 3
From: Spider Murphy <crickel@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:51:00 -0600
Ryan W. Bolduan wrote:

> I have a question that I asked Blackjack a few weeks ago, and he was as
> clueless as I. There is a character in the group I run that uses
> neuro-stun grenades almost exclusively. Unfortunately I cannot find rules
> for gas grenades anywhere. I know the smoke grenades rules exist, and
> those are the rules we have used the one time the grenades have come up,
> but I was wondering if anybody has any house rules/solutions for this
> problem. Thanks in advance.

Okay, my solution. Not FASA canon by any stretch of the imagination.

Apply the normal rules for gas gernades. Is character X standing in cloud? If
no, then nothing happens except visibility is impaired as usual. If he is
standing in/touching cloud, then apply the neurostun drug to the character,
with no bonuses for armor, etc. It's a contact drug, goes right through the
skin. Only a full body chemsuit would help. If they happen to have a full body
chemsuit or other chem-bio-sealed armor (milspec stuff) then it doesn't affect
them for a number of minutes equal to the rating of the suit. Ta da! Simple,
effective, and realistic.

Oh, yes, that might confuse you, so - something I might mention. In our
chemical safety class that is required for the Chemistry labs down here, they
make a note that a full-body chemsuit does -not- protect you completely. It
will protect you 100% against certain chemicals for an amount of time, period,
then it very very rapidly degrades to almost completely unusability. You see,
the nastier chemicals actually soak/eat through the suit, depending on what it
is. Once a small section becomes unusable, the rest of the suit is basicly
worthless.

So, enjoy!

Spider Murphy
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:37:50 +0100
Ryan W. Bolduan said on 19:01/24 Mar 98...

> I have a question that I asked Blackjack a few weeks ago, and he was as
> clueless as I. There is a character in the group I run that uses
> neuro-stun grenades almost exclusively. Unfortunately I cannot find rules
> for gas grenades anywhere. I know the smoke grenades rules exist, and
> those are the rules we have used the one time the grenades have come up,
> but I was wondering if anybody has any house rules/solutions for this
> problem.

There aren't any specific rules for gas grenades in SR, unfortunately.
IMHO using the rules for smoke spread (from FoF) works well, since a gas
cloud will move much like a smoke cloud.

The only real problem, if you want realism, is that smoke and gas grenades
tend to "bleed" smoke/gas, not fill a sphere in one bang, but introducing
rules for that would complicate things quite a bit, I think.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 5
From: "Ryan W. Bolduan" <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 06:50:01 -0600
><My Text cut>

> Okay, my solution. Not FASA canon by any stretch of the imagination.
>
> Apply the normal rules for gas gernades. Is character X standing in cloud? If
> no, then nothing happens except visibility is impaired as usual. If he is
> standing in/touching cloud, then apply the neurostun drug to the character,
> with no bonuses for armor, etc. It's a contact drug, goes right through the
> skin. Only a full body chemsuit would help. If they happen to have a full body
> chemsuit or other chem-bio-sealed armor (milspec stuff) then it doesn't affect
> them for a number of minutes equal to the rating of the suit. Ta da! Simple,
> effective, and realistic.
>
> Oh, yes, that might confuse you, so - something I might mention. In our
> chemical safety class that is required for the Chemistry labs down here, they
> make a note that a full-body chemsuit does -not- protect you completely. It
> will protect you 100% against certain chemicals for an amount of time, period,
> then it very very rapidly degrades to almost completely unusability. You see,
> the nastier chemicals actually soak/eat through the suit, depending on what it
> is. Once a small section becomes unusable, the rest of the suit is basicly
> worthless.
>
> So, enjoy!
>
> Spider Murphy
>

I like this suggestion, but I disagree with your assessment of the suit
breaking down and would be interested in other solutions as well. I too
worked in a lot of chemistry labs, etc, and I did not come across this
explination at all. There are quite a few chemical compounds that are
rather corrosive, especially chemical warfare agents. This is so the
compound can melt through a gas mask and render it inneffective. Most
chemicals though do not absorb directly through the suit or break it down,
especially not that quickly. Take polyacrylamide for example. It is
horribly dangerous to handle without any kind of gloves, but once you put
the gloves on all you have to worry about is the rest of your body, the
poyacrylamide will not soak through the gloves. I would think that
Neurostun would be put into this category because the text specifically
states that other than the stun effects there are no other side effects.

Comments, rants, flames?

--
Wherever you go, there you are!
Ryan Bolduan
emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
Message no. 6
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:13:38 +0000
*snip some non-warfare chemicals is perfectly safe to handle with
appropriate protection gear.*
> I would think that
> Neurostun would be put into this category because the text specifically
> states that other than the stun effects there are no other side effects.
>
> Comments, rants, flames?
Sounds reasonable. How would you handle 'real' chemical warfare
agents? What would be their effects?

I know the answer is potentially very bad news. If I was going to be
hit by something I'd prefer a nuke to chemical/bio stuff from what I
currently know.




--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 7
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:15:54 +0000
> I would think that
> Neurostun would be put into this category because the text specifically
> states that other than the stun effects there are no other side effects.
>
> Comments, rants, flames?
Another comment.

You are obviously correct in neurostun not eating through chemsuits.
Why?

It's delivered by grenade. Chance of self-exposure is huge. So you
want to have effective, simple protection.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 8
From: The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 05:18:58 PST
> Unfortunately I cannot find rules
>for gas grenades anywhere. I know the smoke grenades rules exist, and
>those are the rules we have used the one time the grenades have come
up,
>but I was wondering if anybody has any house rules/solutions for this
>problem. Thanks in advance.


I would use the smoke grenade rules, but apply the neuro-stun damage
when someone walks into the smoke(or vice versa). In case anyone is
wondering, the damage for neuro-stun can be found in the Behind the
Scenes chapter of the BBB(silly, I know, but you have no idea how long
it took me to find the damage for narcojet<g>).



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com> <ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 9
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:16:53 +0000
In article <35188D34.62C0F31C@***.edu>, Spider Murphy <crickel@***.EDU>
writes
>Oh, yes, that might confuse you, so - something I might mention. In our
>chemical safety class that is required for the Chemistry labs down here, they
>make a note that a full-body chemsuit does -not- protect you completely. It
>will protect you 100% against certain chemicals for an amount of time, period,
>then it very very rapidly degrades to almost completely unusability. You see,
>the nastier chemicals actually soak/eat through the suit, depending on what it
>is. Once a small section becomes unusable, the rest of the suit is basicly
>worthless.

Yep. Our NBC suits were considered to be effective for 24 hours in a
contaminated environment, but you would decontaminate as much as
possible to reduce the load on the suit and you tried to avoid remaining
in an area contaminated by persistent agents unless necessary.

You also were careful around petroleum distillates, since petrol or
diesel spilled on the suit would allow some agents to penetrate faster.

Your respirator canister was considered good for seven days, but some
agents (most notably HCN) would attack the filters rapidly.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:10:40 +0000
In article <199803251037.LAA25896@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>The only real problem, if you want realism, is that smoke and gas grenades
>tend to "bleed" smoke/gas, not fill a sphere in one bang, but introducing
>rules for that would complicate things quite a bit, I think.

Actually, many modern CS gas grenades burst to scatter burning pellets
of agent; having a single grenade bleeding smoke leaves it vulnerable to
being thrown away or thrown back. So, 'tis doable.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:13:59 +0100
Ryan W. Bolduan said on 6:50/25 Mar 98...

> Most chemicals though do not absorb directly through the suit or break
> it down, especially not that quickly. Take polyacrylamide for example.
> It is horribly dangerous to handle without any kind of gloves, but once
> you put the gloves on all you have to worry about is the rest of your
> body, the poyacrylamide will not soak through the gloves.

There is an important difference between NBC suits and rubber (?) gloves
used in a lab. First of all, in the lab you handle the stuff for a while,
then put it away and take off the gloves. Soldiers in (possibly)
contaminated areas have to wear NBC suits continually, which burdens them
more than wearing only normal combat clothing. For example, the US Army
NBC jacket I own -- I collect this sort of stuff -- could well be used as
a waterproof winter coat (if the sleeves weren't so wide, that is).

Second, a point you already made: "once you put the gloves on all you
have to worry about is the rest of your body". Handling polyacrylamide in
a lab means you'r only bound to touch it with your hands. Soldiers can get
exposed to toxic clouds that can be absorbed through the skin, so suits
have to fit all over the body. It's impossible to make the suit from
rubber or a similar material, because that only leads to exhaustion much
faster than "breathing" suits already do.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:13:59 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 12:10/25 Mar 98...

> Actually, many modern CS gas grenades burst to scatter burning pellets
> of agent; having a single grenade bleeding smoke leaves it vulnerable to
> being thrown away or thrown back. So, 'tis doable.

True. I didn't really say it ver ywell, but my comment was more directed
toward smoke grenades, which in SR also fill a whole sphere at once.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Oost west, asbest.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 13
From: "Ryan W. Bolduan" <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:38:57 -0600
<Snip my stuff about polyacrylamide>
> There is an important difference between NBC suits and rubber (?) gloves
> used in a lab. First of all, in the lab you handle the stuff for a while,
> then put it away and take off the gloves. Soldiers in (possibly)
> contaminated areas have to wear NBC suits continually, which burdens them
> more than wearing only normal combat clothing. For example, the US Army
> NBC jacket I own -- I collect this sort of stuff -- could well be used as
> a waterproof winter coat (if the sleeves weren't so wide, that is).
>
> Second, a point you already made: "once you put the gloves on all you
> have to worry about is the rest of your body". Handling polyacrylamide in
> a lab means you'r only bound to touch it with your hands. Soldiers can get
> exposed to toxic clouds that can be absorbed through the skin, so suits
> have to fit all over the body. It's impossible to make the suit from
> rubber or a similar material, because that only leads to exhaustion much
> faster than "breathing" suits already do.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116

I think you might have taken what I said out of context though. I was
saying that I didn't think chemsuits should only last a number of minutes
equal to its rating. As an example I was talking about how I can wear
gloves in the lab and basically not worry about touching it. My gloves do
not break down, even after a couple of hours of work, in fact we try to
save money by using our gloves as many times as possible before throwing
them out. In the case of military NBC suits in most cases they are worn in
places that have either high concentrations of a chemical warfare agent or
the chemical is inherently corrosive.

In the case of most non chemical warfare agents I would also postulate
that they would be specifically designed not be corrosive. A lot of the
normal, yet extremely lethal chemical agents have almost no corrosive
properties whatsoever. In the case of neurostun specifically it has no
game effects other than stunning somebody that is unfortunate enough to be
caught in its gas. I wouldn't expect any such gas that would be delivered
in such close quarters to be corrosive.

Just my 2 cents.

--
Whever you go, there you are!
Ryan Bolduan
emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
Message no. 14
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:01:11 -0600
At 06:50 AM 98-03-25 -0600, you wrote:
>><My Text cut>
<snip>
>I like this suggestion, but I disagree with your assessment of the suit
>breaking down and would be interested in other solutions as well. I too
>worked in a lot of chemistry labs, etc, and I did not come across this
>explination at all. There are quite a few chemical compounds that are
>rather corrosive, especially chemical warfare agents. This is so the
>compound can melt through a gas mask and render it inneffective. Most
>chemicals though do not absorb directly through the suit or break it down,
>especially not that quickly. Take polyacrylamide for example. It is
>horribly dangerous to handle without any kind of gloves, but once you put
>the gloves on all you have to worry about is the rest of your body, the
>poyacrylamide will not soak through the gloves. I would think that
>Neurostun would be put into this category because the text specifically
>states that other than the stun effects there are no other side effects.
>
>Comments, rants, flames?

As a photojournalist I'd be interested to know how hazmet gear and other
chem suits would stand up to the crap that would normally be transported in
tanker trucks.

SteveD
>
>--
>Wherever you go, there you are!
>Ryan Bolduan
>emeottrw@***.mrs.umn.edu
>
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 15
From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:24:49 EST
"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK> wrote,

> In article <199803251037.LAA25896@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
> <gurth@******.NL> writes
> >The only real problem, if you want realism, is that smoke and gas grenades
> >tend to "bleed" smoke/gas, not fill a sphere in one bang, but
introducing
> >rules for that would complicate things quite a bit, I think.
>
> Actually, many modern CS gas grenades burst to scatter burning pellets
> of agent; having a single grenade bleeding smoke leaves it vulnerable to
> being thrown away or thrown back. So, 'tis doable.

In the US arsenal, there are actually TWO grenades that use CS. One is
a riot control grenade (ABC-M25A2CS), which is actually a concussion
grenade that also scatters burning CS pellets (as Paul described). The
other one is a smoke grenade (can't remember the nomenclature, sorry)
that is laced with CS. (The smoke compound is hexachloroethane, or HC,
which is also used in normal smoke grenades, as well as 155-mm howitzer
shells.) We often used the CS-smoke grenades in field training
exercises to simulate chemical strikes.

Also, there is a gel-capsule which contains CS powder, which we use in
our gas chambers for mask-confidence drills. The pellets are activated
by heat (such as flame) and give off pure CS vapor (which is
colorless, but definitely NOT odorless!) Since they're heat activated,
some of the dirty tricks my NBC NCO taught me was to stuff them inside
normal smoke grenades (especially the colored smoke, which was not
laced with CS), or to drop them down the exhaust pipes of heaters,
generators, or vehicles. Boy, were our soldiers surprised at how
realistic he and I made NBC training during exercises! :-)

-- Jon
Message no. 16
From: JonSzeto <JonSzeto@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Grenade Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:26:03 EST
"Ryan W. Bolduan" <emeottrw@***.MRS.UMN.EDU> wrote,

> I think you might have taken what I said out of context though. I was
> saying that I didn't think chemsuits should only last a number of minutes
> equal to its rating. As an example I was talking about how I can wear
> gloves in the lab and basically not worry about touching it. My gloves do
> not break down, even after a couple of hours of work, in fact we try to
> save money by using our gloves as many times as possible before throwing
> them out. In the case of military NBC suits in most cases they are worn in
> places that have either high concentrations of a chemical warfare agent or
> the chemical is inherently corrosive.

Actually, most chemical warfare agents are not corrosive. The only
agent that I know of that is highly corrosive is phosgene oxime (or
CX, a blister agent), and that is only when the chemical is exposed to
metals. Choking agents (phosgene) and the G-series of nerve agents
(tabun, sarin, and soman) are rated as only slightly corrosive on
steel. All other agents (including VX) are either not corrosive, or
only slightly corrosive when exposed to high temperatures (greater
than 65 C) or for long periods of time (months).

The chemical overgarments (BDOs) that the US Army uses are rated to
protect against chemical agents for a minimum duration of 24 hours.
After 24 hours, the active protective components (such as the charcoal
lining) lose their effectiveness, and the suit becomes vulnerable to
chemical exposure. (Contrary to popular misconception, the chemicals
do NOT eat through the suit.) Additionally, BDOs have a very limited
service life and become unusable after 30 days. (When not in use, BDOs
are stored in hermetically-sealed bags to extend their shelf life,
usually up to 14 years since manufacture date.) And as Paul mentioned
in an earlier post, spilling petroleum, oils, or lubricants on a BDO
will render it useless, as those liquids will neutralize the
protective materials in the suit.

Against truly corrosive chemicals (acids and alkaloids), BDOs offer
little or no protection, and one will need a suit made of latex or
some other rubberized compound.

-- Jon

Further Reading

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