Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	JOHANNA BURWELL-KALES <burwell@******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades...
Date:	Wed, 26 Oct 1994 17:10:42 -0700

Message no. 1 Who can really argue the usefulness of grenades. They can be
timed, trip-wired, thrown with out harm to you, used in a gun, dropped,
pu in someones mouth ( as in wanted dead or alive with Rutger Hauer), and
other possibilities exist. By far they are the most deadly weapon in
SR. Utilizing the chunky-salsa effect described in SRII, a player can
take out 2 to 3 people in one shot. Also, who says you should be allowed
to save for a called and smartgunned head shot? On any race, a head shot
kills in one hit, logicaly. What do you think. who can argue against the
use of grenades to cause widespread panic?

From:	Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades...
Date:	Wed, 26 Oct 1994 22:04:45 -0400

Message no. 2 On Wed, 26 Oct 1994, JOHANNA BURWELL-KALES wrote:

> Who can really argue the usefulness of grenades. They can be
> timed, trip-wired, thrown with out harm to you, used in a gun, dropped,
> pu in someones mouth ( as in wanted dead or alive with Rutger Hauer), and
> other possibilities exist. By far they are the most deadly weapon in
> SR. Utilizing the chunky-salsa effect described in SRII, a player can
> take out 2 to 3 people in one shot. Also, who says you should be allowed
> to save for a called and smartgunned head shot? On any race, a head shot
> kills in one hit, logicaly. What do you think. who can argue against the
> use of grenades to cause widespread panic?

First: Why, yes, grenades *are* a wonderful, versatile, and
awfully mean weapon. Thank you for joining the rest of the class ;) (I
love grenades, especially in office buildings with the little cardboard
divider walls...)
Second: A head hit is not an automatic kill. You would be
surprised how many people get hit in the head and live. Ya see, it's
like this. Not every shot hits the brain, and even those that do don't
guarantee a kill. Oblique shots will often pass through both cheeks
without hitting anything in between (except maybe grazing the tongue).
Or they may pass through the jaw, totally shattering it. Or you may pass
across both eyes, puncturing the ocular orbs and shattering the nose, but
not harming anything immediately vital. Or you could hit from the the
front arc, but off to one side or the other, effectively removing one ear
and a sizeable chunk of scalp. Or the bullet might hit dead center in
the forehead and pass between the hemispheres of the brain without
seriously tearing anything up. If you want more info on this, read
military medical manuals, police reports, emergency room reports, or
books or studies on the effects of gunshot wounds on the human body (yes,
there has been *extensive* study into this field).
So a head shot doesn't always make you dead. Sometimes it just
makes you *wish* you were dead.

Marc

From:	"J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject:	Re: Grenades...
Date:	Thu, 27 Oct 1994 00:46:24 -0400

Message no. 3 On Wed, 26 Oct 1994, JOHANNA BURWELL-KALES wrote:

> Who can really argue the usefulness of grenades.
[examples of useful grenades deleted]

In our gaming session on Monday, we needed a distraction in a
packed club in order to get the bouncer away from a door which we wished
to pass through (sure, we coulda killed him, but distractions are
cheaper, usually easier, and almost always more fun.)
Our mage's trick didn't work -- the guy whose joint she tried to
magic-fingers away was a mage as well. So, our muscle (he's more than
muscle, but his muscles are the fastest in the team) tossed a stun
grenade as far as he could -- we think it landed in the pit.
Extremely effective, I must say...though it would've been even
more effective if the bouncer hadn't seen him throw it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The problems of two second-rate actors | "But this is _our_ hill.
don't amount to a hill of beans | And these are _our_ beans!"
in this crazy underworld." | -Frank Drebbin, The Naked Gun
-Tom Servo, MST3K |-----------<jdfalk@****.com>----

From:	Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject:	Re: Grenades...
Date:	Thu, 27 Oct 1994 12:24:32 +0000

Message no. 4 >
> Who can really argue the usefulness of grenades. They can be
> timed, trip-wired, thrown with out harm to you, used in a gun, dropped,
> pu in someones mouth ( as in wanted dead or alive with Rutger Hauer), and
> other possibilities exist. By far they are the most deadly weapon in
> SR. Utilizing the chunky-salsa effect described in SRII, a player can
> take out 2 to 3 people in one shot. Also, who says you should be allowed
> to save for a called and smartgunned head shot? On any race, a head shot
> kills in one hit, logicaly. What do you think. who can argue against the
> use of grenades to cause widespread panic?
>

Don't forget grenades come in a variety of 'flavours', offensive,
defensive, smoke, flash and white phosphorous (my personal favourite).

A PC in one of my games once killed a mini adventure stone dead by
lobbing a grenade into a cave. Killed the Wendigo and all his cronies
in one shot. Not recommended for hostage rescues though.

Actually he has a grenade launcher built into his cyberarm. He's
planning on using it sometime by grabbing someone's face, forcing
them to open their mouth and firing.

Can we say 'splat'?

See ya

GLO (still considering a moniker)

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"

From:	Firepower <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades...
Date:	Thu, 27 Oct 1994 08:54:48 EST

Message no. 5 Even better, check out the new grenade launcher pistol in Fields
Of Fire, the new Mercs book. This is truly a bitchin' weapon, carrying
6 grenades in a package more concealable than a Pred II.
Gun nut,

FIREPOWER

From:	Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades...
Date:	Thu, 27 Oct 1994 13:01:13 +0600

Message no. 6 Remember the best result of grenades...

FUBAR...

(Obscure 'Tango and Cash' reference. Sorry about that.)

-Jeff

From:	Spellslinger <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades...
Date:	Thu, 27 Oct 1994 18:03:33 -0700

Message no. 7 > A PC in one of my games once killed a mini adventure stone dead by
> lobbing a grenade into a cave. Killed the Wendigo and all his cronies
> in one shot. Not recommended for hostage rescues though.
>
> Actually he has a grenade launcher built into his cyberarm. He's
> planning on using it sometime by grabbing someone's face, forcing
> them to open their mouth and firing.
>
> Can we say 'splat'?
Warning! I come to share some words of wisdom! Our favorite
Samurai/Death machine, Mad Cat, decided he wasn'[t going to play around
with a certain flesh form insect spirit and launched a grenade into it's
chest. Two problems:

1) Mad Cat was less than a meter away and....

2) they were in sewer pipe with a radius of 2 meters.

With all of mad Cat's successes and the overpressure of being in the
pipe, the combined force of the grenade was 26D + 12 successes. he
nearly killed the whole party. He blew about 40-50 karma points. A big
withdrawl from the karma bank. And he almost took out one mage's ally.
Oops.

just a warning for anyone firing grenades at close quarters.
>
> GLO (still considering a moniker)
>
Mike aka Spellslinger

From:	Kyle Monroe <mk0648@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 27 Oct 1994 20:19:07 -0500

Message no. 8 Grenades can be wizzer, yes, but only if you are in to mass havoc and
destruction. When subtlety is the key, they just don't cut it. Setting
off a grenade, thus waving a sign to the security forces saying "Here we
are- come and kill us!" is otnay ootay ightbray when a simple shot from a
silenced pistol is all that was needed. Grenades have their uses, but
only when used intelligently.

Kyle Monroe

>>>Glitch<<<

From:	Stuart Marsh <sam10@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	Grenades
Date:	Mon, 23 Jan 1995 14:26:42 +0000

Message no. 9 If you throw a grenade or fire one or what ever, and miss then roll a random
scatter from the point at which it was ment to land.

Stuart aka Cinder

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Tue, 24 Jan 1995 01:58:38 +0930

Message no. 10 Cinder writes:
> If you throw a grenade or fire one or what ever, and miss then roll a random
> scatter from the point at which it was ment to land.

No, no, no... You determine the scatter FIRST, then reduce said scatter by
a certain amount per success. (See pages 96-97, Black Book). Basically,
they assume you miss, but how well you miss determines how close you get.
It is possible to miss so well that it ends up in the guy's lap. (Missing
well is the opposite of missing badly, which often means shooting in the
other direction)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.

From:	Inquisitor <ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Mon, 23 Jan 1995 17:51:00 GMT

Message no. 11 Why do launched grenades deviate? I thought that they were designed to explode
on
impact (sorry major typo!). Maybe CHOPPER can shed some light?

From:	Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Mon, 23 Jan 1995 15:03:28 -0600

Message no. 12 On Mon, 23 Jan 1995, Inquisitor wrote:

> Why do launched grenades deviate? I thought that they were designed to explode
> on
> impact (sorry major typo!). Maybe CHOPPER can shed some light?
>
Missiles are the same way and they deviate. The grenades blow up on
impact, it is just hard to hit what you want.

-Andrew

From:	Sandman <SANDS@******.JUNIATA.EDU>
Subject:	Grenades
Date:	Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:48:30 -0500

Message no. 13 From: Inquisitor <ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>

Why do launched grenades deviate? I thought that they were designed to
explode on impact (sorry major typo!). Maybe CHOPPER can shed some light?

------------------------------

Yes, they explode on impact. But just _where_ do they impact? Just as
with a bullet, just because you're aiming at something doesn't mean you
are going to hit it. That's what you roll for--to see how close to the
target you can get the impact. Of course, you can also splurge on
those nice Ares Air-Timed Mini Grenades(tm)! :)

: Jon Sands aka Sandman ^ "The bigger they are, :
: sands@******.juniata.edu ^ The more pieces they make." :
: Snail: 1168 Juniata College ^ -Wolverine :
: Huntingdon, PA 16652 ^ Dark Phoenix Saga :
: **** "He hits and... I think I'm going to need more dice..." **** :

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 25 Jan 1995 11:07:52 +0100

Message no. 14 >Yes, they explode on impact. But just _where_ do they impact? Just as
>with a bullet, just because you're aiming at something doesn't mean you
>are going to hit it. That's what you roll for--to see how close to the
>target you can get the impact. Of course, you can also splurge on
>those nice Ares Air-Timed Mini Grenades(tm)! :)

Launched grenades are a bit difficult, IMHO. At least at short ranges, you
should be able to shoot them straight at a target, like when using a
shotgun. But at longer ranges, you'll probably have to aim carefully to get
them where you want them. I'm thinking of something to make scatter greater
(for all weapons subject to it) the longer the range to the target is, to
make it a bit more realistic.

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"What do you call not believing in what you did see?" "Politics?"
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 25 Jan 1995 20:47:16 +0930

Message no. 15 > Launched grenades are a bit difficult, IMHO. At least at short ranges, you
> should be able to shoot them straight at a target, like when using a
> shotgun. But at longer ranges, you'll probably have to aim carefully to get
> them where you want them. I'm thinking of something to make scatter greater
> (for all weapons subject to it) the longer the range to the target is, to
> make it a bit more realistic.

This is already in the system. The longer the range, the fewer successes
you roll, so the less the base scatter is reduced.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.

From:	Inquisitor <ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re; Grenades
Date:	Wed, 25 Jan 1995 16:49:00 GMT

Message no. 16 Thankyou for coming through and giving us all a load of good ideas CHOPPER,
you are an absolute fountain of knowledge. Ever thought of writing a book
of ShadowRunners Dirty Trix (mainly for use of GMs)? How about a mono wire
grenade? That would really slice people up and make sure that anyone entering
the room would also get injured.

From:	"James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: grenades
Date:	Thu, 26 Jan 1995 15:47:28 +0000

Message no. 17 > From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
> > Future (SRII)grenades should be a lot smarter
<SHADOWDANCER> Or how about bio armed. I do not remember the movie, but in it
was a
> round that could be set for a specific persons biorythim. Reverse it.
> Set the grenade to not detonate when within blast radius(plus 1-10
> addition meters) of carrier and teammates. Then just push the arm
> button and throw.
<CHOPPER>This would be kinda tricky to rig...maybe if you all
carry IFF (identify friend or foe) transmitters and the grenade
pulses a signal before detonation, and the IFF's echo back a
reply. if any IFF is in the area of effect, the grenade doesn't
explode. just keep your IFF transeiver SAFE=)

> > The future of Laucher grenades
<CHOPPER> heres another toy. A big low vel grenade laucher with
stearage vanes and a directional flechette warhead. control via
smartlink and wire link.
This can change direction in flight, allowing you to fire the
grenade past /over the cover and blast the target
T = T is target
---+ ^ Y is you.
i ^ the grenade turns in flight, so its
i ^ flechette head points sideways.
Y when it clear the cover, BOOM

> From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
> > (how about an ultrasonic detector to get the sammie with the
> > ultrasound sight?)
>
> Won't work. Ultrasound is usually a focussed beam. Unless the
> grenade can adjust its course and travel down the beam, in which case
> it's not a grenade, but more like a smart rock. (I use those as well on
> my players; occasionally, they have also used such).
<CHOPPER> If ultrasound is used in a focused beam, then how does
the Ultrasound Sight see? If the beam is so tight it'll act like
a torch, so you can only see what you shine it at, loosing all
periferal vision. As there is no Mod to perception to use the
sight, i'd say it was more like a floodlight, flooding the area
with ultrasonics and recieving the echos from all solids.
So if they lob the UltraSonic Trigger grenade round the cover
you use and into your LOS, it goes BOOM
>
> > (Careful, rolling a grenade in your hand MAY arm it, if its your
> > unlucky day.)
> Nope. Spin armed grenades have either a vane in the nose which
> spins while in flight, or a sort of venturi nozzle in back which goes off
> propellant exhaust. Usually it's a vane which spins a bolt which makes
> electrical connection with the fuse after a given number of turns. No
> chance of arming by just rolling around.
<CHOPPER>depends on how loose the bolt at the back is... if its
an old grenade, (and the players would just love cheap ammo,
wouldn't they?) it may get a little cranky...
> > Airtimed grenades are fired by controlled propellant, so the
> > speed of the grenade can be calculated accurately. then the
> > timer is set to detonate after traveling the desired distance
>
> More likely it's a simple inertial system based off a ring-laser
> gyro which compares current and intended position, and arms the fuse
> accordingly. From personal research, I know it's pretty hard to
> mass-produce consistent propellant with the desired characteristics;
> you need some sort of feedback control and compensator unit to adjust.
<CHOPPER> they're expensive enough as it is. Is simpler to use
semi-uniform propellant (it doesn't have to be THAT accurate,
its an area weapon) Cos an Inertial system with gyros is gonna
boost the price up a LOT.
HEY! IDEA!!
Get an air timed grenade like Adam Gretchell suggests, fuse it
for travel of say 10m. put into your enemys pocket. As they
move, the grenade will register the distance moved and BOOM!
Of course, they move no-where near grenade speeds, so it may
take greater distances to blow it. Maybe if they run...

> > millimetric radar in the nose, a cheap little unit that allows
> > it to detonate at a preset distance from target
> Radar-detonated shells were first used in WWII.
<CHOPPER> Not in 18mm and 25mm Minigrenades
> > Smart rounds? stuff with fins and rockets to guide it, giving it
> Revamping rules for these.
<CHOPPER>YES!
post 'em..they sound like Fun.
Personal Favorites are Cephalic rounds. they lock on humanoid
heat pattern and aim for the head. Pretty easy to fool (bend
over) but great for shooting wild into rooms/cars/bars =)
> > Shaped Charge Antitank rounds.These things are voodoo against
>
> Current armor trends make the usefulness of shaped charges
> problematic for the future. To get through significant armor now
> requires kinetic energy penetrators of some kind, AP(FS)DS(DU) and it's
> ilk, and SEFOP (self-forging projectiles). The best shaped charges can
> only penetrate 5 - 7 times their diameter in _homogenous_ armor, and that
> just isn't going to cut it. (Even the Russians have got "Chobhamski"
> armor now).
<CHOPPER> But light armour cannot take the glass/ceramic/
airgap/ steel/ DU insert path of tank armour without the wearer
having to get a lot stronger.
Shaped charges are still gonna be around for cutting/light
antivehicle purposes
And Remember, the players are not going up against MBT's (are
they? hope not) But throwning a shaped charge at someones heat
pattern coming through a light concrete wall can realy ruin
their day
By the way, can't you increase the charges penetrating power by
using tanthalum instead of copper cones. I read the russians
had got something like a 30% increase in penetration....

CHOPPER
Gimme a Weapon, I give you three ways to misuse it!

From:	Inquisitor <ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: grenades
Date:	Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:24:00 GMT

Message no. 18 Is there any way to create a grenade so that when it detonates it throws out
pairs of ball bearings linked together by monowire that unravel as they travel
and spin like mini-bolas in the target with both the bearings and the wire
doing damage (and making the wounds dangerous for medics to deal with)?

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: grenades
Date:	Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:38:53 -0800

Message no. 19 On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, James W. Thomas wrote:

> <CHOPPER> If ultrasound is used in a focused beam, then how does
> the Ultrasound Sight see? If the beam is so tight it'll act like
> a torch, so you can only see what you shine it at, loosing all

It is an ultrasound _sight_, not ultrasound _vision_. Just like
a laser sight, it ranges what you point it at. Just it's immune to magic
(so far, w/o "spells of silence"). It would be vulnerable to
countermeasures that you prescribe if it wasn't tightly focussed.

> <CHOPPER>depends on how loose the bolt at the back is... if its
> an old grenade, (and the players would just love cheap ammo,
> wouldn't they?) it may get a little cranky...

Trust me, old bolts tend to lock up and get tight, not loosen.
Think of old engine mountings. Old grenades tend to be duds.

> <CHOPPER> they're expensive enough as it is. Is simpler to use
> semi-uniform propellant (it doesn't have to be THAT accurate,
> its an area weapon) Cos an Inertial system with gyros is gonna
> boost the price up a LOT.

RLG's aren't that expensive anymore, I don't think, especially in
an era of cheap laser sights.

> HEY! IDEA!!
> Get an air timed grenade like Adam Gretchell suggests, fuse it
> for travel of say 10m. put into your enemys pocket. As they
> move, the grenade will register the distance moved and BOOM!
> Of course, they move no-where near grenade speeds, so it may
> take greater distances to blow it. Maybe if they run...

I like it. Especially since it could go off distance, rather
than velocity.

> Personal Favorites are Cephalic rounds. they lock on humanoid

Heh. That's a nice idea.

> Shaped charges are still gonna be around for cutting/light
> antivehicle purposes

True.

> And Remember, the players are not going up against MBT's (are

Heh, heh. Ask Eve, aka "Tigger the Rigger". (Not that they
didn't deserve it though, running around the Tir).

> By the way, can't you increase the charges penetrating power by
> using tanthalum instead of copper cones. I read the russians
> had got something like a 30% increase in penetration....

Interesting...hadn't read about that.

> CHOPPER

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: grenades
Date:	Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:41:49 -0800

Message no. 20 On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Inquisitor wrote:

> Is there any way to create a grenade so that when it detonates it throws out
> pairs of ball bearings linked together by monowire that unravel as they travel

I think you could get the same effects with memory plastic
shards. Have them compact, but expandable to a helical coil upon sharp
impact. Some of them might have higher thresholds ...
"What's in your arm there?"
*SPROING!!*
"Holy @#$!!, his arm fell off!"

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: grenades
Date:	Sat, 28 Jan 1995 11:32:46 +0100

Message no. 21 >Is there any way to create a grenade so that when it detonates it throws out
>pairs of ball bearings linked together by monowire that unravel as they travel
>and spin like mini-bolas in the target with both the bearings and the wire
>doing damage (and making the wounds dangerous for medics to deal with)?

Could be done, I guess, by putting a wire between each two bearings before
they are put into the grenade body. This would be tricky, I think, and most
likely the wire would get ripped apart when the grenade detonates.

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"What do you call not believing in what you did see?" "Politics?"
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

From:	Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject:	Re: grenades
Date:	Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:51:51 +0000

Message no. 22 Hi guys, I'm back!

> > From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
> > > Future (SRII)grenades should be a lot smarter
> <SHADOWDANCER> Or how about bio armed. I do not remember the movie, but in it
> was a
Are you thinking of 'Runaway' with Tom Seleck?

> > > The future of Laucher grenades
> <CHOPPER> heres another toy. A big low vel grenade laucher with
> stearage vanes and a directional flechette warhead. control via
> smartlink and wire link.
> This can change direction in flight, allowing you to fire the
> grenade past /over the cover and blast the target
> T = T is target
> ---+ ^ Y is you.
> i ^ the grenade turns in flight, so its
> i ^ flechette head points sideways.
> Y when it clear the cover, BOOM

Mean. The Swedes (I think) hava an anti-tank missile with a warhead
that faces down. It flies over the target and blows down through
the thinner top armour. Same principle.

[ultrasound stuff deleted for brevity]
I reckon you could make a mine with an ultrasound sensor. Program
it to explode if the ultrasound it picks up is 'loud' enough to
indicate the ultrasound sight producing it is within the mines
blast radius.
Alternatively, mount a couple of super-SMGs on a computer controlled
cradle (hey, that's a sentry gun) programmed to fire straight towards
any ultrasound source it detects. Load one with explosive ammo and the
other with APDS ammo. Lasers would work better though, no ranging problems.

[grenade launcher fuse stuff cut]
It shouldn't be too difficult to produce a fuse that only arms when
accelerated hard - ie at launch time, not when the rigger's making a
quick getaway.

> post 'em..they sound like Fun.
> Personal Favorites are Cephalic rounds. they lock on humanoid
> heat pattern and aim for the head. Pretty easy to fool (bend
> over) but great for shooting wild into rooms/cars/bars =)

Evil! Where can I get them.

> CHOPPER
> Gimme a Weapon, I give you three ways to misuse it!

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"

From:	Gareth Owen <glowen1@*****.NHS.GOV.UK>
Subject:	Re: grenades
Date:	Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:07:10 +0000

Message no. 23 >
> On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, James W. Thomas wrote:
>
> > <CHOPPER> If ultrasound is used in a focused beam, then how does
> > the Ultrasound Sight see? If the beam is so tight it'll act like
> > a torch, so you can only see what you shine it at, loosing all
>
> It is an ultrasound _sight_, not ultrasound _vision_. Just like
> a laser sight, it ranges what you point it at. Just it's immune to magic
> (so far, w/o "spells of silence"). It would be vulnerable to
> countermeasures that you prescribe if it wasn't tightly focussed.

We've always taken it as ultrasound vision, an ultrasound ranging sight
would not be terribly useful against invisible things.

> > <CHOPPER>depends on how loose the bolt at the back is... if its
> > an old grenade, (and the players would just love cheap ammo,
> > wouldn't they?) it may get a little cranky...
>
> Trust me, old bolts tend to lock up and get tight, not loosen.
> Think of old engine mountings. Old grenades tend to be duds.

I know that technically you're right, but Murphy's law implies that if
a bolt can cause trouble by loosening, then it will, unless it can
cause even more trouble by tightening. Murphy's third, I think.

GLO

--
Gareth Owen | Mail: glowen1@*****.nhs.gov.uk
Sytems Programmmer | Phone: (UK) 0495 765021
Gwent Health Authority | "Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure"

From:	Peter Rogers <DarkAngelI@******.COM>
Subject:	Grenades
Date:	Wed, 11 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0700

Message no. 24 In a current game we are playing, we have come up against a discrepency
concerning grenade rules.
Q: Do you fire at the person or something near him?
Example: BOB is running past a door. To hit him with a minigrenade, there
is a +2 modifier making it a target number of 6 (assume no target number
enhancers on weapon). However, if you fire at the door, then the target
number is only 4. Because BOB is moving, it is assumed that its harder to get
a blast near him.
Example 2: BOB is invisible. He is again standing near a door on a thirty
meter wall. MIKE is trying to shoot BOB, but does not know where he is, (+8
modifier). If MIKE fires at the door, what is the required target number to
raise the damage of the blast against BOB? Pieces of flying shrapnel don't
care if BOB is invisible. However, MIKE still has no idea where BOB is, and
can't target properly.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.

From:	Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:20:42 -0600

Message no. 25 Peter Rogers wrote:
>
> In a current game we are playing, we have come up against a discrepency
> concerning grenade rules.
> Q: Do you fire at the person or something near him?
> Example: BOB is running past a door. To hit him with a minigrenade, there
> is a +2 modifier making it a target number of 6 (assume no target number
> enhancers on weapon). However, if you fire at the door, then the target
> number is only 4. Because BOB is moving, it is assumed that its harder to get
> a blast near him.

If you are a real sly character, you fire at a stationary point where the
character is going to be at, hopefully a wall. If it *is* a wall, the guy is
swiss cheese due to the chunky-salsa affect :-) But, either way, there is no
*correct* way to fire it, it's a decision left to the firer: track and lead
the guy running with a +2 modifier, or shoot it at an area in front of him
(which any nasty GM will probably add +2 to anyway).

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | I haven't lost my mind. It's backed up
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | on tape somewhere.
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |

From:	"Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:50:00 EST

Message no. 26 >In a current game we are playing, we have come up against a discrepency
>concerning grenade rules.
>Q: Do you fire at the person or something near him?
> Example: BOB is running past a door. To hit him with a minigrenade, there
>is a +2 modifier making it a target number of 6 (assume no target number
>enhancers on weapon). However, if you fire at the door, then the target
>number is only 4. Because BOB is moving, it is assumed that its harder to get
>a blast near him.
The direct blast yes, but grenades usually scatter, so the gm must determine
if BOB is in the blast radius.
> Example 2: BOB is invisible. He is again standing near a door on a thirty
>meter wall. MIKE is trying to shoot BOB, but does not know where he is, (+8
>modifier). If MIKE fires at the door, what is the required target number to
>raise the damage of the blast against BOB? Pieces of flying shrapnel don't
>care if BOB is invisible. However, MIKE still has no idea where BOB is, and
>can't target properly.
>Any suggestions?
I would allow MIKE to shoot at the wall at no penalties, if BOB just happens
to be in the blast radius, he would get hit granted it's not full force.
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:46:13 +0930

Message no. 27 Peter Rogers wrote:
>
> In a current game we are playing, we have come up against a discrepency
> concerning grenade rules.
> Q: Do you fire at the person or something near him?
> Example: BOB is running past a door. To hit him with a minigrenade, there
> is a +2 modifier making it a target number of 6 (assume no target number
> enhancers on weapon). However, if you fire at the door, then the target
> number is only 4. Because BOB is moving, it is assumed that its harder to get
> a blast near him.

*shake* You don't aim at a person with indirect fire weapons... you aim at
a POINT. If that point is near to BOB, that's good. If it's not, that's
bad.

Of course, that gets to the next question... how do you decide what point
to aim at? Well, in my game at least, I never liked how you couldn't kill
someone with a grenade, so I introduced rules allowing for indirect fire
weapons to be aimed at specific targets, with all the usual penalties. The
bonus was that you could then stage up the damage after getting rid of the
scatter, for that target. That gets around that problem.
Otherwise, aim for the door... :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

From:	Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:12:16 -0600

Message no. 28 Robert Watkins wrote:
> *shake* You don't aim at a person with indirect fire weapons... you aim at

Sure you can, you just need a rangefinder and a good enough skill! Then watch
the chunks fly!!!

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | I think, therefore you are.
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | -- Sutter Cane from John Carpenter's
http://www.sc.colostate.edu | "In The Mouth of Madness"

From:	Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:05:42 +0930

Message no. 29 Mike Loseke wrote:
>
> Robert Watkins wrote:
> > *shake* You don't aim at a person with indirect fire weapons... you aim at
>
> Sure you can, you just need a rangefinder and a good enough skill! Then watch
> the chunks fly!!!

Fine, that's reality. However, the rules for indirect fire weapons,
INCLUDING grenades of all kinds, say you're firing at a point. :) That's
why I use optional rules to get around this.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***

From:	Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:40:22 -0600

Message no. 30 Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> Mike Loseke wrote:
> >
> > Robert Watkins wrote:
> > > *shake* You don't aim at a person with indirect fire weapons... you aim at
> >
> > Sure you can, you just need a rangefinder and a good enough skill! Then watch
> > the chunks fly!!!
>
> Fine, that's reality. However, the rules for indirect fire weapons,
> INCLUDING grenades of all kinds, say you're firing at a point. :) That's
> why I use optional rules to get around this.

Sure: a point betwwen the knees and midway from the belt and armpit. ;-)

But seriously folks, in reality a point target is just that: a point. I think
some people may confuse that with an area target, which thrown grenades, mortars,
and much arty are frequently used for. When going through M-203 quals in the Army,
two of the targets I remember were a stationary hard target (burned out PC) and a
2' by 2' window in a wall. The grenade had to impact on the
hard target and go through the window (but not at the same time ;-).

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & | Hanlon's Razor:
System Administrator | Never attribute to malice that which is
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | adequately explained by stupidity.
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |

From:	dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:13:35 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 31 Sascha Pabst wrote:
|
|Been there, Gamemastered that. Two of three groups I had the luck
|to be involved with aggessesivly forbid grenades within the group
|('Oh, NO! The last Grenade you threw hit ME! You leave it at home or
|I'll..." [pull out LARGE gun])
|
|The chance for missfi... missthrows is to great under the given game mechanics,

Yup. My players figured that one out a long time ago. I haven't seen a
grenade thrown in my game in three years. And I think I've only had an NPC
throw one once (the grenade landed six meters off target and only knocked
the PCs off their feet).

And my one other experience with grenades went as follows: a Troll/PhysAd
was in a confined space with the PCs. He challenged one of the PCs to
single combat. The PC looked the Troll up and down and said "$#@! that!",
pulled out his gun and opened fire. The other PCs joined in (attacking the
Troll). I had expected the character to accept the challenge and reacted
(poorly in retrospect) by having the Troll pull out a defensive grenade and
drop it in the middle of the room. After doing the math the characters were
faced with a 20somethingD attack. After modifying for armor and using up
their karma pools the characters came away with from it with Serious
wounds. The Troll was dropped because he didn't have a Karma pool.

My problem is this: a grenade went of in a room measuring approx. 3x4
meters and none of the characters even went down. What's wrong with this
picture? I like my game to have a heroic/movie atmosphere but this one
defied the laws of reality just a little too much for me. Is there anything
that can be done to make grenades realisticly deadly, or did I just miss
a rule someplace?

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:30:02 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 32 |
|Sascha Pabst wrote:

|My problem is this: a grenade went of in a room measuring approx. 3x4
|meters and none of the characters even went down. What's wrong with this
|picture? I like my game to have a heroic/movie atmosphere but this one
|defied the laws of reality just a little too much for me. Is there anything
|that can be done to make grenades realisticly deadly, or did I just miss
|a rule someplace?

They use up a lot of Karma to survive. How much did they actually BURN for
automatic successes?
If they BURNED it, I can't see a problem.
If they re-rolled.... how much karma did they have to be able to get that
many 12+'s?

Thee whole point of karma is to keep you alive. It succeeded.
If they BURNED thee karma, theen that seriously weakened the characters for
the next few adventures.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Mike Loseke <mike@***.sc.colostate.edu>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:48:19 -0700

Message no. 33 >Sascha Pabst wrote:
>
>My problem is this: a grenade went of in a room measuring approx. 3x4
>meters and none of the characters even went down. What's wrong with this
>picture? I like my game to have a heroic/movie atmosphere but this one
>defied the laws of reality just a little too much for me. Is there anything
>that can be done to make grenades realisticly deadly, or did I just miss
>a rule someplace?

I think the black book says "1 point of karma per reroll" or the like.
(hopefully someone with the book at hand can check it) What we have done is
to use what was an SRI rule (I think): the first reroll is 1pt, the next is
2pts, the next is 4pts and so on. This is for the same "roll" not different
rolls in the session. It has worked quite well and makes it more difficult
for even higher-karma PCs to survive the big stuff.

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & | If you live to the age of a hundred you have
System Administrator | it made because very few people die past the
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | age of a hundred.
http://www.sc.colostate.edu | -- George Burns

From:	dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:25:14 -0700 (MST)

Message no. 34 A Halliwell wrote:
||
||Sascha Pabst wrote:

Actually I wrote this:

||My problem is this: a grenade went of in a room measuring approx. 3x4
||meters and none of the characters even went down. What's wrong with this
||picture? I like my game to have a heroic/movie atmosphere but this one
||defied the laws of reality just a little too much for me. Is there anything
||that can be done to make grenades realisticly deadly, or did I just miss
||a rule someplace?
|
|They use up a lot of Karma to survive. How much did they actually BURN for
|automatic successes?
|If they BURNED it, I can't see a problem.
|If they re-rolled.... how much karma did they have to be able to get that
|many 12+'s?
|
|Thee whole point of karma is to keep you alive. It succeeded.
|If they BURNED thee karma, theen that seriously weakened the characters for
|the next few adventures.

You know, I just realized that at the time this happened we weren't using
the Karma rules right. The characters were spending 1 point of karma for
every re-roll instead of spending it progressional as per the rules (1
point for first re-roll, 2 points for second, 3 points for first, etc).

Never mind (feeling sheepish).

-David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
mailto:dbuehrer@****.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 11 Jan 1996 12:55:40 +1100 (EST)

Message no. 35 >They use up a lot of Karma to survive. How much did they actually BURN for
>automatic successes?
>If they BURNED it, I can't see a problem.
>If they re-rolled.... how much karma did they have to be able to get that
>many 12+'s?

They didn't have to. The base damage for grenades is Serious, and they
can't be staged up.

Ways to solve this: use MULTIPLE grenades. :) Or change the base damage
from Serious to Deadly.

--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/

From:	Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.cse.psu.edu>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:31:52 -0500

Message no. 36 On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> They didn't have to. The base damage for grenades is Serious, and they
> can't be staged up.

Hmm...I'm pretty sure grenades can be staged up. At least in SRII.

--Craig

From:	"Larry White (WPG) (Exchange)" <Larryw@********.MICROSOFT.com>
Subject:	RE: Grenades
Date:	Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:48:59 -0800

Message no. 37 On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> The base damage for grenades is Serious, and they can't be staged up.

On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Craig S Dohmen wrote:

> Hmm...I'm pretty sure grenades can be staged up. At least in SRII.

I read in the books (SRII) that extra successes from throwing / firing a
grenade can stage up damage. This has never made sense to me.

Samurai: "I shoot a grenade, using my underbarrel grenade launcher,
at the desk in the center of the room. My target number is reduced
by 1 because its a stationary object. I pull the trigger in such a way
and with such skill that the grenade twists and turns and bounces so
as to stage the damage up to Deadly on the 5 people near the desk."

Yeah, right.

From:	"A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:16:41 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 38 |
|
|
|On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:
|
|> They didn't have to. The base damage for grenades is Serious, and they
|> can't be staged up.
|
|Hmm...I'm pretty sure grenades can be staged up. At least in SRII.

So am I. As well as that, there's the compression wave effect as it reflects
off the walls. They were in a small room after all....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	RE: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 11 Jan 1996 11:23:03 +0100

Message no. 39 Larry White (WPG) (Exchange) said on 10 Jan 96...

> I read in the books (SRII) that extra successes from throwing / firing a
> grenade can stage up damage. This has never made sense to me.
>
> Samurai: "I shoot a grenade, using my underbarrel grenade launcher,
> at the desk in the center of the room. My target number is reduced
> by 1 because its a stationary object. I pull the trigger in such a way
> and with such skill that the grenade twists and turns and bounces so
> as to stage the damage up to Deadly on the 5 people near the desk."

Actually it would do Deadly damage to the desk, and only Serious to the
people around it, at least if I got it right :) The way I think this works
is that damage is only staged up against the target you are directly
aiming for, and anyone in the vincinity takes only the base damage.
So, shoot it straight into someone's guts with your underbarrel launcher
and you get to use thoe 10 successes to make him really dead indeed, but
all his buddies a meter away only take 10S damage (or 9S, actually, with
an offensive grenade).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
They will call us fools in days to come. What's changed?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(----) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Sgt Pepper <GRBENNET@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU>
Subject:	RE: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 11 Jan 96 11:32:11 EST

Message no. 40 On Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:46:59 -0500 Larry White (WPG) (Exchange) said:
>
>On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Craig S Dohmen wrote:
>
>> Hmm...I'm pretty sure grenades can be staged up. At least in SRII.
>
>
>I read in the books (SRII) that extra successes from throwing / firing a
>grenade can stage up damage. This has never made sense to me.
>
> Samurai: "I shoot a grenade, using my underbarrel grenade launcher,
> at the desk in the center of the room. My target number is reduced
> by 1 because its a stationary object. I pull the trigger in such a way
> and with such skill that the grenade twists and turns and bounces so
> as to stage the damage up to Deadly on the 5 people near the desk."
>
If memory serves me, (I dont have the book handy), extra successes are used
to improve the accuracy of the throw/fire, not to increase the damage.

Of course, increased accuracy in the throw/fire can have the side effect of
increased damage, but I dont think extra successes can increase it directly.

Sgt Pepper

From:	Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject:	RE: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 11 Jan 1996 12:58:51 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 41 On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Larry White (WPG) (Exchange) wrote:

> I read in the books (SRII) that extra successes from throwing / firing a
> grenade can stage up damage. This has never made sense to me.
>
> Samurai: "I shoot a grenade, using my underbarrel grenade launcher,
> at the desk in the center of the room. My target number is reduced
> by 1 because its a stationary object. I pull the trigger in such a way
> and with such skill that the grenade twists and turns and bounces so
> as to stage the damage up to Deadly on the 5 people near the desk."

That's why you apply secondary, tertiary, etc. target mods to
each target after the first. A well placed grenade can kill more than
one opponent, but it shouldn't be able to kill everyone. By applying
modifiers to every target after the initial aim target, you reduce the
number of successes obtained, and thus the damage applied.

Marc

From:	westec@******.COM (Neon Sihn)
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 11 Jan 1996 13:15:48 -0600

Message no. 42 >>They use up a lot of Karma to survive. How much did they actually BURN for
>>automatic successes?
>>If they BURNED it, I can't see a problem.
>>If they re-rolled.... how much karma did they have to be able to get that
>>many 12+'s?
>
>They didn't have to. The base damage for grenades is Serious, and they
>can't be staged up.

not normally, but you just said 3x4...?????
or you could at least add a like amount of stun damage as well as the
phys damage...????

---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323 IPPA #A-0117 Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------

From:	westec@******.COM (Neon Sihn)
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Thu, 11 Jan 1996 13:15:44 -0600

Message no. 43 >I think the black book says "1 point of karma per reroll" or the like.

cumulative...

>This is for the same "roll" not different
>rolls in the session. It has worked quite well and makes it more difficult
>for even higher-karma PCs to survive the big stuff.

and keep in mind that it doesn't "refresh" for a while.... unless you only
have one "extreme" encounter in the course of your whole adventure,
they've used up a good portion of what they have available for that session.
My players are ready to use all they need to survive, but they are also
pretty frugal; they never know when they're gonna need some..... :)

---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323 IPPA #A-0117 Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------

From:	sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Fri, 12 Jan 96 00:07 EST

Message no. 44 >
>
>On Wed, 10 Jan 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
>> They didn't have to. The base damage for grenades is Serious, and they
>> can't be staged up.
>
>Hmm...I'm pretty sure grenades can be staged up. At least in SRII.
Actually they can't. But the way a group I use to be in worked grenades was
instead of adding the powers, you had to resist each individual time the
grenade fragments hit you.
---Sedah Drol

--
Home page: Better Homes and Gardens page 36 volume 3 March 1995:)(sorry
couln't resist)
---
ATTN: Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled.
---
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++

From:	sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject:	RE: Grenades
Date:	Fri, 12 Jan 96 00:11 EST

Message no. 45 >I read in the books (SRII) that extra successes from throwing / firing a
>grenade can stage up damage. This has never made sense to me.
>
> Samurai: "I shoot a grenade, using my underbarrel grenade launcher,
> at the desk in the center of the room. My target number is reduced
> by 1 because its a stationary object. I pull the trigger in such a way
> and with such skill that the grenade twists and turns and bounces so
> as to stage the damage up to Deadly on the 5 people near the desk."
>
>Yeah, right.
Whoops, I missed that part in the book, BTW it's on page 97 2nd paragraph
under the Grenade Damage table.
---Sedah Drol
--
Home page: Better Homes and Gardens page 36 volume 3 March 1995:)(sorry
couln't resist)
---
ATTN: Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled.
---
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++

From:	"Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:32:41 GMT

Message no. 46 Robert Watkins writes

> >They use up a lot of Karma to survive. How much did they actually BURN for
> >automatic successes?
> >If they BURNED it, I can't see a problem.
If they burned it it really cost!

> >If they re-rolled.... how much karma did they have to be able to get that
> >many 12+'s?
>
> They didn't have to. The base damage for grenades is Serious, and they
> can't be staged up.
>
In second edition they can be staged up. They are just an attack.
Setting the base damage code to deadly and banning stgeup against
anyone but the guy whose lap you dropped it in could be more
realistic though.

> Ways to solve this: use MULTIPLE grenades. :) Or change the base damage
> from Serious to Deadly.
>
With IPE grenades thats not usually required. The standard variety SR
grenade is not funny, well 2nd ed anyway, after all you cannot dodge
area affect attacks (well moving rigged cars get allowed to but thats
all!)

Mark

From:	t_little@**********.utas.edu.au (Timothy Little)
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:36:16 +1100

Message no. 47 >Sascha Pabst wrote:
>|
>|Been there, Gamemastered that. Two of three groups I had the luck
>|to be involved with aggessesivly forbid grenades within the group
>|('Oh, NO! The last Grenade you threw hit ME! You leave it at home or
>|I'll..." [pull out LARGE gun])
>|
>|The chance for missfi... missthrows is to great under the given game
mechanics,
>
>Yup. My players figured that one out a long time ago. I haven't seen a
>grenade thrown in my game in three years. And I think I've only had an NPC
>throw one once (the grenade landed six meters off target and only knocked
>the PCs off their feet).

How about these anecdotes:

1) We had just broken through the wall of a solid concrete bunker to disrupt
the ritual of an evil magical group, and I realised my character had an IPE
concussion grenade (I like to knock people out rather than kill them). A
bit of Magic Fingers to make sure the grenade went exactly where it's wanted
(inside the hole) and a Physical Barrier to stop it coming out again worked
wonders.
BOOM! Now the GM works out the damage ...
Oh dear, the IPE concussion grenade has 16M damage, and this is inside a
3x5x2m bunker. That makes for a *lot* of reflected blast waves off each
wall, the roof, and multiple reflections from combinations of them all.
There was no way that the GM was going to workout each of those reflections
by hand, so I had to use a simple approximation (which was actually way too
low), and guessed a Power of 200. (It should actually be around 700) Now
the interesting bit. Obviously I couldn't stage the damage up, since I
wasn't aiming at anyone. So that 700M attack should do no more than
Moderately stun them all. The GM had to make a snap ruling that they were
all comprehensively dead. Having thought about it, I've thought that for
purposes of applying damage to characters it would be more appropriate to
add a Damage level for each reflection, and once it reaches Deadly further
reflections add +2 to Power (same mechanic as working out spell and
anchoring Drain).

2) We were involved in a fight, and as a side effect of a mage's Acid Bomb,
the targets were enveloped in a cloud of fumes and smoke about 16 meters
across. The street sam, realising that aimed fire had become virtually
impossible, threw a grenade down the street toward the center of the area
some distance away (medium range, say about 40 meters). The problem was,
the point he was aiming for was inside the smoke cloud, meaning he had a +6
modifier to hit on top of the base of 5. Unsurprisingly, he didn't get many
successes against target number 11, and the grenade scattered about 10
meters left and short. The problem is, this was outside the smoke cloud, so
he argued that he shouldn't have +6 for seeing through the smoke cloud since
the grenade never went in it, and he had scored a large number of successes
against the unmodified target number meaning that he got it exactly where he
wanted it (and a fair few more to stage up the damage). The GM made a snap
ruling that it landed just inside the edge of the smoke cloud, but it made
me wonder about those game mechanics, too.

3) Another grenade is hurled. This time it's a Physical Adept in our party
throwing a grenade in through a door to take out an insect shaman and a
cocoon. Well, he doesn't have Throwing Weapon skill, but he's right next to
the doorway and his Quickness is inhuman. So, he goes for it. He's going
to walk up beside the door, throw in the grenade and dive for cover.
The GM works out his target number to hit the doorway. Base 4 (short
range), +4 (default from Quickness), but -1 (target stationary) for TN# 7.
He can't aim, since half skill (rounded down) is 0. He can't add any combat
pool, since his rating in the skill being used is 0. Rolling the dice,
total successes: 0. So, he misses the doorway and it bounces off the wall
to land next to his feet. Trying to kick it away (per FoF rules I believe),
he fails and gets a mangled leg when it explodes. Moral: A 1 m doorway at
a range of 2 m is a lot smaller than it looks, even if your coordination is
superhuman.

--
Tim Little

From:	"A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:11:28 +0000 (GMT)

Message no. 48 |How about these anecdotes:
|
|1) We had just broken through the wall of a solid concrete bunker to disrupt
|the ritual of an evil magical group, and I realised my character had an IPE
|concussion grenade (I like to knock people out rather than kill them). A
|bit of Magic Fingers to make sure the grenade went exactly where it's wanted
|(inside the hole) and a Physical Barrier to stop it coming out again worked
|wonders.
|BOOM! Now the GM works out the damage ...
|Oh dear, the IPE concussion grenade has 16M damage, and this is inside a
|3x5x2m bunker. That makes for a *lot* of reflected blast waves off each
|wall, the roof, and multiple reflections from combinations of them all.
|There was no way that the GM was going to workout each of those reflections
|by hand, so I had to use a simple approximation (which was actually way too
|low), and guessed a Power of 200. (It should actually be around 700) Now
|the interesting bit. Obviously I couldn't stage the damage up, since I
|wasn't aiming at anyone. So that 700M attack should do no more than
|Moderately stun them all. The GM had to make a snap ruling that they were
|all comprehensively dead. Having thought about it, I've thought that for
|purposes of applying damage to characters it would be more appropriate to
|add a Damage level for each reflection, and once it reaches Deadly further
|reflections add +2 to Power (same mechanic as working out spell and
|anchoring Drain).

Ouch! I'd agree with the G.M. in a situation like that, and to justify it,
I'd tell the party that each reflection was more damage ADDED on....

e.g. The blast does 6M, reflecting off a wall a meter away the victim takes
another 4M (Added on so it would be 10S!)
Sick I know, but a contained/confined explosion does massive amounts of
damage.
After all, if you ignite gunpowder, it only explodes if it's tightly packed...

|2) We were involved in a fight, and as a side effect of a mage's Acid Bomb,
|the targets were enveloped in a cloud of fumes and smoke about 16 meters
|across. The street sam, realising that aimed fire had become virtually
|impossible, threw a grenade down the street toward the center of the area
|some distance away (medium range, say about 40 meters). The problem was,
|the point he was aiming for was inside the smoke cloud, meaning he had a +6
|modifier to hit on top of the base of 5. Unsurprisingly, he didn't get many
|successes against target number 11, and the grenade scattered about 10
|meters left and short. The problem is, this was outside the smoke cloud, so
|he argued that he shouldn't have +6 for seeing through the smoke cloud since
|the grenade never went in it, and he had scored a large number of successes
|against the unmodified target number meaning that he got it exactly where he
|wanted it (and a fair few more to stage up the damage). The GM made a snap
|ruling that it landed just inside the edge of the smoke cloud, but it made
|me wonder about those game mechanics, too.

Simple! The grenade flew *into* the cloud, bounced off something and
skittered it's way back to the outside edge of the cloud.
The sam CAN NOT see into the cloud, so how does he know it WON'T bounce/skitter
back out?

|3) Another grenade is hurled. This time it's a Physical Adept in our party
|throwing a grenade in through a door to take out an insect shaman and a
|cocoon. Well, he doesn't have Throwing Weapon skill, but he's right next to
|the doorway and his Quickness is inhuman. So, he goes for it. He's going
|to walk up beside the door, throw in the grenade and dive for cover.
|The GM works out his target number to hit the doorway. Base 4 (short
|range), +4 (default from Quickness), but -1 (target stationary) for TN# 7.
|He can't aim, since half skill (rounded down) is 0. He can't add any combat
|pool, since his rating in the skill being used is 0. Rolling the dice,
|total successes: 0. So, he misses the doorway and it bounces off the wall
|to land next to his feet. Trying to kick it away (per FoF rules I believe),
|he fails and gets a mangled leg when it explodes. Moral: A 1 m doorway at
|a range of 2 m is a lot smaller than it looks, even if your coordination is
|superhuman.

That *is* stupid!!!! The roll shouldn't have been to see if he got it in
through the doorway, it should have been to see how closely it landed to the
cocoon. You can't miss a doorway from *that* distance unless you roll an
Ooops (all 1's).
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| | Zaphod Beeblebroxs' last meal was taken at the |
| u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | Restaraunt at the end of the universe, since when |
| | he has been catapulted through time in a Hagunenon |
| | Spaceship, eaten by a carbon copy of the ravenous |
| | bugblatter beast of traal, received strange and |
| |unedifying instructions from himself (in his sleep!)|
| Andrew Halliwell | and in consequence made his way to the office |
| | building of the Hitch-Hikers guide to the Galaxy, |
| Foundation Year |which was then unaccountably attacked by a squadron |
| | of Frog Star fighters, Hauled in it's entirety off |
| Leading to | the surface of the planet and is now making it's |
| Principal Subjects in |way (with Zaphods' mysterious new friend Roosta) to |
| Visual Arts | the even more mysterious Frog Star. |
| & | He is therefore, not unnaturally, feeling a little |
| Computer Science | peckish........ - Douglas Adams |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Mon, 15 Jan 1996 18:05:25 -0600

Message no. 49 >How about these anecdotes:
>
>[snipped about reflection damage]

Easy way to handle that is to have each reflection be a seperate attack.
Sure, it'll absolutely butcher anyone caught like that, but that's how it goes.

Also, those reflections (added as they were) would've blown down the
physical barrier that was holding it in. Your GM let you off easy.

>[snipped the grenade into smoke example]

It is very hard to gauge ranges through smoke. The fact that the grenade
landed outside of the smoke-filled radius does not mean that it didn't go
into the smoke. It could easily have bounced off of a car or sign or
lightpost or telecom or passerby or whatever to end up where it did. So
there I would rule that the dice were right.

>3) Another grenade is hurled. This time it's a Physical Adept in our party
>throwing a grenade in through a door to take out an insect shaman and a
>cocoon. Well, he doesn't have Throwing Weapon skill, but he's right next to
>the doorway and his Quickness is inhuman. So, he goes for it. He's going
>to walk up beside the door, throw in the grenade and dive for cover.
>The GM works out his target number to hit the doorway. Base 4 (short
>range), +4 (default from Quickness), but -1 (target stationary) for TN# 7.
>He can't aim, since half skill (rounded down) is 0. He can't add any combat
>pool, since his rating in the skill being used is 0. Rolling the dice,
>total successes: 0. So, he misses the doorway and it bounces off the wall
>to land next to his feet. Trying to kick it away (per FoF rules I believe),
>he fails and gets a mangled leg when it explodes. Moral: A 1 m doorway at
>a range of 2 m is a lot smaller than it looks, even if your coordination is
>superhuman.

Ok, didn't snip this one because it's a real pain. Basically, instead of
aiming for the doorway, he should've aimed for the room behind it. Pick a
target anywhere in the room, no problem. Base is still 4 most likely, +4
for quickness, -1 for stationary target, -1 for aim (might as well use that
simple action, eh?) = 6 TN. Now, scatter goes from where you wanted to put
the grenade. So if you aimed at a spot a few meters into the room, near the
back wall, you'd be safe from scatter (unless you stood in the doorway, in
which case you get a faceful). This diagram shows what I'm talking about...
_________
X = target spot. | X |
lines = scatter. | / | \|
D = door. | / | /|
P = physad. |____D____|
P

At the very worst, the scatter would put the grenade up against the same
wall that you're hiding behind. At best, scatter will knock the grenade off
the wall and back to where you wanted it to be in the first place. Much
safer, much more effective.

------------------------------------------------------------
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// /// /// /// //// //// //
//// ///// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ////// /////
/// ///// /// /// /// /////// ////// //////
// ///// /// /// //////// /// /// /// ////// ///////
/ ///// /// //////// /// /// ////// ////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
------------------------------------------------------------
Bob "TopCat" Ooton <topcat@******.net>
------------------------------------------------------------
"Outside they are gathering and their fangs are bared, for
the bigger your fangs, the bigger your share."
-- Sol Invictus "Here Am I"
------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject:	Re: Grenades
Date:	Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:04:49 GMT

Message no. 50 > 3) Another grenade is hurled. This time it's a Physical Adept in our party
> throwing a grenade in through a door to take out an insect shaman and a
> cocoon. Well, he doesn't have Throwing Weapon skill, but he's right next to
> the doorway and his Quickness is inhuman. So, he goes for it. He's going
> to walk up beside the door, throw in the grenade and dive for cover.
> The GM works out his target number to hit the doorway. Base 4 (short
> range), +4 (default from Quickness), but -1 (target stationary) for TN# 7.
> He can't aim, since half skill (rounded down) is 0. He can't add any combat
> pool, since his rating in the skill being used is 0. Rolling the dice,
> total successes: 0. So, he misses the doorway and it bounces off the wall
> to land next to his feet. Trying to kick it away (per FoF rules I believe),
> he fails and gets a mangled leg when it explodes. Moral: A 1 m doorway at
> a range of 2 m is a lot smaller than it looks, even if your coordination is
> superhuman.

Total and absolute Horlicks. If you're right by the door, *anyone* can
successfully throw an object through it. Try it a few times and ask how
much Thrown Weapon skill you have (I'm hilarious on the few occasions I've
tried throwing knives, even properly-balanced ones, and I've thrown a
total of three grenades, yet even I can manage).

Now, the PC might not have put the grenade anywhere near the target...
but you certainly can't screw up that badly on a routine basis. British
Army doctrine is to 'post' grenades directly through the doorway/firing
slit/etc, not to throw them, because you can hardly miss then. By this
rule, we would have had quite a few killed on the live-fire exercise where
I actually got to use a real L2 fragmentation grenade for the first ever
time.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 51 On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.demon.co.uk> said:

>> 3) Another grenade is hurled. This time it's a Physical Adept in our
party
>> throwing a grenade in through a door to take out an insect shaman and a
>> cocoon. Well, he doesn't have Throwing Weapon skill, but he's right next
to
>> the doorway and his Quickness is inhuman. So, he goes for it. He's
going
>> to walk up beside the door, throw in the grenade and dive for cover.
>> The GM works out his target number to hit the doorway. Base 4 (short
>> range), +4 (default from Quickness), but -1 (target stationary) for TN#
7.
>> He can't aim, since half skill (rounded down) is 0. He can't add any
combat
>> pool, since his rating in the skill being used is 0. Rolling the dice,
>> total successes: 0. So, he misses the doorway and it bounces off the
wall
>> to land next to his feet. Trying to kick it away (per FoF rules I
believe),
>> he fails and gets a mangled leg when it explodes. Moral: A 1 m doorway
at
>> a range of 2 m is a lot smaller than it looks, even if your coordination
is
>> superhuman.
>
>Total and absolute Horlicks. If you're right by the door, *anyone* can
>successfully throw an object through it. Try it a few times and ask how
much
>Thrown Weapon skill you have (I'm hilarious on the few occasions I've
tried
>throwing knives, even properly-balanced ones, and I've thrown a total of
three
>grenades, yet even I can manage).

Absolutley. If I read the above scernario correctly, the PhysAd is up
against the wall, next to the door, and is simply attempting to sling the
grenade in without much regard as to the actual spot where it lands. (As
an aside, real world doctrine would follow the grenade with a ton of auto
fire from at least two assests moving through the doorway- since this is
difficult at best to coordinate, you might require some test of Military
Therory (Tactics) to pull it off without tripping over each over, missing
an area of the room, etc.)

To force a PC to roll to hit a targret that isn't resisting, is in fact
completley unaware of the attack, (as most doors seem to be) is ridiculous.
If the PC can get to the door, he can just as easily walk through it as
throw something through into the room, and you wouldn't make him roll to go
through the door, would you? Now, if the PhysAd wants to throw a knife or
shoot at the incest shaman, that is a different matter entirely.

>Now, the PC might not have put the grenade anywhere near the target... but
you
>certainly can't screw up that badly on a routine basis. British Army
doctrine
>is to 'post' grenades directly through the doorway/firing slit/etc, not to

>throw them, because you can hardly miss then. By this rule, we would have
had
>quite a few killed on the live-fire exercise where I actually got to use a
real
>L2 fragmentation grenade for the first ever time.

Old rule from the Drill sergeant's school: Troops throw two live grenades
in training. The first goes about 10 meters. The second goes about half a
mile.

--
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@******.net
"Just because I work for the Federal government doesn't mean I'm an expert
on cockroaches."
-Fox Mulder

Message no. 52 David Buehrer said on 10 Mar 96...

[DMZ grenade scatter diagram]
> Very nice. I'll start using this for my next game. Thanks. BTW, what's the
> other useful bit of DMZ?

Errmmm... It'll come to me...

:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Iedereen lult
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 53 @ In FoF there's the optional rule that a grenade will go off 5 phases
@ after the pin is pulled. This kind of implies that bouncing around
@ will not set off a grenade. But, its an optional rule. BTW, in my
@ game grenades are impact detonated. Air-timed grenades are valuable
@ because they won't go off if they hit a Barrier Spell (or any other
@ barrier you can't see) between you and your target.

I might be wrong but I am sure that somewhere in the SSC they
mentioned that grenades timers can be set from impact to 2 hours or
something like that. One use for air timed grenades is the Neuro-stun
versions (that is if you play them like ours where they dump the
entire load in a single shot, not stream it out). They are great for
crowd control.

@ And while we're on the subject here's a GM idea. If the characters in
@ your game are grenade fanatics, and they have a reputation for being
@ so, try the following. Have an NPC mage cast invisiblity on an air
@ elemental. If any grenades are thrown the air elemental is to gently
@ catch the grenade, and throw it back.

Our GM tried something similar, except he used magic fingers. The
problem that I pointed out to him at that time was the fact that it
was airtimed and didn't require a bounce to detonate. The mage was
*very* unhappy, it didn't kill him, but he left enough blood lying
around in pools to make tracing him not to much of a problem.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.

Message no. 54 Hi people,

I think I've gone and done it to myself - I went and reread the grenade
rules. Now, I am really confused.

Can someone clarify this:

The no. of successes someone gets reduces the scatter distance. Hence, if
the person rolled super high results so that the grenade drops at their
enemies' feet, then the person *only* suffers the damage from the grenade
and any barrier reflections there are. Hence, with offensive grenades in
this situation, then the person would suffer 10D damage with no
possibility of increase by the aggressor. Hence, it is impossible,
without reflection to kill someone with a grenade.

Then, there is rangefinder mechanisms. With this, the grenade cannot
scatter. Hence, as long as the person rolls just the one success, the
grenade hits - dead on. Boy, if this is so, then the munchkins would love
this rule (you know, low grenade throwing skills, still hit as accurate
as a high skill person). NB. In this case, special minigrenades are used
as opposed to throwing, but it is the same idea.

So, am I reading the rules wrong, or have I found something very bizaare
here. You see, the way I used to play the rules for throwing grenades is
that the person throwing is allowed to split dice into accuracy and
increasing damage.

Thanks people.

Shaman

_________________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman

Neurological problems 101:
Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
including amygdala.
Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
_________________________________________________________

Message no. 55 Calvin Hsieh said on 15:43/14 Jan 97...

> The no. of successes someone gets reduces the scatter distance. Hence, if
> the person rolled super high results so that the grenade drops at their
> enemies' feet, then the person *only* suffers the damage from the grenade
> and any barrier reflections there are. Hence, with offensive grenades in
> this situation, then the person would suffer 10D damage with no
> possibility of increase by the aggressor. Hence, it is impossible,
> without reflection to kill someone with a grenade.

According to the SRII rules, grenades get staged up with the successes
rolled by the attacker, as well as reducing scatter with those same
successes. This is explained in the paragraph immediately above "Blast
Against Barriers" on page 97 of SRII.

For example, I throw a standard, offensive grenade at someone who's been
bugging me lately (there are enough candidates *grin* :), and I get 3
successes. For scatter distance, the 1D6 roll comes up as 4, which is
reduced by my 3 successes to 0 (2 meters reduction per success). The
victim then rolls a Body test against the 10S of the grenade, say this
gets 1 success. That's a total of 2 net successes for me, staging the
Damage Level up to D.

However, I myself don't like this -- you don't normally aim thrown
grenades at someone, you just chuck 'em their way and let them do their
work. As a result, I only allow characters to stage up launched grenades,
for which I let them roll a normal Firearms test; if the character gets
enough successes, it hits. If it doesn't hit, I roll for scatter. Staging
up the damage in this case only happens to anyon that takes a _direct_ hit
from the grenade.

> Then, there is rangefinder mechanisms. With this, the grenade cannot
> scatter. Hence, as long as the person rolls just the one success, the
> grenade hits - dead on. Boy, if this is so, then the munchkins would love
> this rule (you know, low grenade throwing skills, still hit as accurate
> as a high skill person). NB. In this case, special minigrenades are used
> as opposed to throwing, but it is the same idea.

Rules for the rangefinder are _extremely_ vague. Going by the text in the
SSC, launched grenades don't scatter at all with this device, but that
seems a bit weird to me. There'd be no need to roll a test, for one...
I've gone to using the rules from DMZ, which state that a rangefinder
(with all the proper links and stuff) reduces scatter distance by half.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Vliegen met die hap!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 56 Best rule I ever saw in the Companion: the Throwing skill is used to reduce
scatter, the damage is staged up by rolling 1/2 power vs 4 to stage up 1
damage level for every 2 successes on this test (body+combat stages down as
normal)

(This rule applies for *all* explosives!)

From a Gateway 2000 manual:
Sucking all the chips off your system board with an industrial strength
wet/dry vac is not covered by your warranty
mailto:jhurley1@************.edu

Message no. 57 Gurth wrote,
>For example, I throw a standard, offensive grenade at someone who's been
>bugging me lately (there are enough candidates *grin* :)

HELP!

>Rules for the rangefinder are _extremely_ vague. Going by the text in the
>SSC, launched grenades don't scatter at all with this device, but that
>seems a bit weird to me. There'd be no need to roll a test, for one...
>I've gone to using the rules from DMZ, which state that a rangefinder
>(with all the proper links and stuff) reduces scatter distance by half.

Let's see if I can recall everthing you had to have this detenate on
target grenade launcher (as it was part of the late Cavalier's attempts
of creating his "mage-killer gun")
Rangefinder, Rangefinder Grenade Link, Air-Timed Mini-Grenades,
modification for linkage to smartgun system, Smartgun System, and of
course the smart link itself was the combination to pull this off. Sorry
if this could be a little unbalancing or dare I say the M-word.

- MC23 -

Message no. 58 --part1_13.e1d124e.2756938d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Yo,

I'm looking at SR3 rules for grenades, throwing them, on pg 118-119. On the
table on 119 it says that areodynamic grenades scatter more than non-areo's
is that an error or is that what its supposed to say? Seems that areodynamic
ones should scatter less.

DC

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML>Yo,
 
 I'm looking at SR3 rules for grenades, throwing them, on pg 118-119.
 On the table on 119 it says that areodynamic grenades scatter more
than non-areo's is that an error or is that what its supposed to say?
 Seems that areodynamic ones should scatter less.
 
 DC</HTML>

--part1_13.e1d124e.2756938d_boundary--

Message no. 59 .----- Original Message -----
.From: DragonC147@***.com
.
.I'm looking at SR3 rules for grenades, throwing them, on pg 118-119. On
the
.table on 119 it says that areodynamic grenades scatter more than non-areo's
.is that an error or is that what its supposed to say? Seems that
areodynamic
.ones should scatter less.

Areodynamic grenades are more like a frisbee (except smooth on both sides)
and thusly could atually skip (if it hits the ground and doesn't go off) or
be harder to target.

Augustus

Message no. 60 According to DragonC147@***.com, on Wed, 29 Nov 2000 the word on the
street was...

> I'm looking at SR3 rules for grenades, throwing them, on pg 118-119. On the
> table on 119 it says that areodynamic grenades scatter more than non-areo's
> is that an error or is that what its supposed to say? Seems that areodynamic
> ones should scatter less.

Aerodynamic ones scatter twice as far as standard grenades, BTB. This is
probably (depending on your POV) either because they can travel further, so
any small mistakes in aim will be amplified, or a way to balance their
greater range :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 61 ---- Original Message -----
From: <DragonC147@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 6:14 PM
Subject: Grenades

> Yo,
>
> I'm looking at SR3 rules for grenades, throwing them, on pg 118-119. On the
> table on 119 it says that areodynamic grenades scatter more than non-areo's
> is that an error or is that what its supposed to say? Seems that areodynamic
> ones should scatter less.

But you also reduce the aerodynamic grenedes scatter by 4 meters per success, compared to
the 2 meters per success for non-aerodynamic. In the end it evens out.

Lars

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