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From:	Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject:	Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:03:16 +1100

Message no. 1 1.

This may have already been said, but:

Both SR2 and SR3 assert that "Minigrenades come in offensive, defensive,
and concussion versions, delievering the same effects as their larger
brothers" (see p. 283 SR3, and p. 242 SR2).

I always assumed that an air-timed grenade would explode on contact,
thereby negating the need for a scatter roll.

2.

I was watching a dodgy police show [Stingers] the other day, and in the
'story' a group of armed robbers have in their possession a rocket
launcher. They were using the launcher in their crimes to intimidate, which
it did. The police kept this very quiet because they did not want to get
the public panicing about armed robbers with military hardware. They also
wanted the armed robbers *bad*.

While the Sixth World is a lot more violent than ours (well, maybe not)
Runners running around with military hardware are more likely to be
targeted for special police operations and they're less likely to know that
they are.

[shrug]

I don't have the Lone Star Sourcebook, so the above may have already been
mentioned in that.

care,
s.

---------------------------------------------------------
to err is human. to forgive is not company policy.

egoshrine: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/8905/
ICQ: 4340513
Dangermedia Guild Assassin: http://dangermedia.com
The Net is Not a TV: http://dangermedia.org/nntv/
---------------------------------------------------------

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:50:21 +0100

Message no. 2 According to Stuart M. Willis, at 11:03 on 3 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> I always assumed that an air-timed grenade would explode on contact,
> thereby negating the need for a scatter roll.

Airtimed grenades are irritating in that FASA never old us what they
actually do in game terms. I think it was Rob Watkins who came up with
probably the best solution: roll for scatter etc. as normal, then draw a
striaght line from firer to the eventual "impact" point, and the grenade
explodes at a distance equal to that between firer and target, but along
this line. (Unfortunately ASCII won't allow me to draw a diagram for this
very well, as that would make this a lot clearer.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject:	Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:40:20 +1100

Message no. 3 Gurth doth speweth:

>Airtimed grenades are irritating in that FASA never old us what they
>actually do in game terms. I think it was Rob Watkins who came up with
>probably the best solution: roll for scatter etc. as normal, then draw a
>striaght line from firer to the eventual "impact" point, and the grenade
>explodes at a distance equal to that between firer and target, but along
>this line. (Unfortunately ASCII won't allow me to draw a diagram for this
>very well, as that would make this a lot clearer.)

That makes perfect sense [hits.head]. I'm such an idiot. Oh well. :-)

Are 'explode on contact' mini-grenades available? They'd make everything
alot simplier for GMs and PCs [and allow a few nasty situations].

care,
s.

---------------------------------------------------------
to err is human. to forgive is not company policy.

egoshrine: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/8905/
ICQ: 4340513
Dangermedia Guild Assassin: http://dangermedia.com
The Net is Not a TV: http://dangermedia.org/nntv/
---------------------------------------------------------

From:	Kevin Dole kdole@***.vsc.edu
Subject:	Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:26:08 EST5EDT

Message no. 4 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
>Airtimed grenades are irritating in that FASA never old us what
>they actually do in game terms. I think it was Rob Watkins who

The ones that link to the rangefinder?

The way we've done them is that the range finder is a laser-
based unit (opticals are more expensive, bulkier, and can't talk to the
greande- at least in our campaign), and that the grenade has a band
of windows around it. laser hits a window, BOOM.

People have also mentioned collateral damage. This won't mean
much against bugs, but how about feeding your GL stun, flash,
flash/bang and anti-riot gas grenades, along with rubber shot (gel
buckshot) cannisters. Anyone who is remotely intelligent will leave
(if they can). You use regular (or explosive, or incindiary, or
armour piercing, or...) bullets one the stupid ones.
If you really, really need to eliminate someone who has been
disabled with stun greandes, my only question is, got a knife? Knife
work unnerves some gamers- less blood, less paperwork, less Lone
Star.

Kevin Dole /:|
kdole@***.vsc.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/4151/welcome.html
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death, and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:23:53 +0100

Message no. 5 According to Stuart M. Willis, at 0:40 on 4 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> Are 'explode on contact' mini-grenades available? They'd make everything
> alot simplier for GMs and PCs [and allow a few nasty situations].

All normal SR grenades (both hand-thrown and launched) have a fuse that
can be set to delay between 2 seconds and 2 minutes, or be switched to
impact (see the equipment chapter of your favorite edition of the SR main
rules). IMHO the default setting for any mini-grenade is to detonate on
impact, but air-timed grenades have an advantage over impact-detonation,
namely that they won't overshoot the target -- a mis-aimed minigrenade
could end up behind the target and damage things you want to keep in one
piece, whereas an airtimed grenade won't do this.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject:	Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:30:53 +1000

Message no. 6 Gurth writes:
> Airtimed grenades are irritating in that FASA never old us what they
> actually do in game terms. I think it was Rob Watkins who came up with
> probably the best solution: roll for scatter etc. as normal, then draw a
> striaght line from firer to the eventual "impact" point, and the grenade
> explodes at a distance equal to that between firer and target, but along
> this line. (Unfortunately ASCII won't allow me to draw a diagram for this
> very well, as that would make this a lot clearer.)

Yep, that's basically how I do it... The distance to the target is used to
describe an arc, centered on the character firing. I use scatter to
determine how far from the true line the grenade travels, and then draw
along the new line to where it intersects the arc.

It's not ideal, and there are exceptions. A short scatter still lands short
(the grenade lands prematurely, and stops there), but otherwise I don't take
into account bouncing. I'm also assuming that the grenade launcher is a
direct-fire weapon, instead of an indirect-fire weapon, and I have no idea
how accurate that is. I just use the above system as it's fairly easy. It
also gives an improvement to accuracy, which is a result of the rangefinder
link: scatter directly behind the target is effectively on target.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:57:45 +0100

Message no. 7 According to Robert Watkins, at 9:30 on 4 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> It's not ideal, and there are exceptions. A short scatter still lands short
> (the grenade lands prematurely, and stops there)

You can always explain that by saying the character misjudged the angle at
which to hold the launcher, or moved when firing, or whatever.

> but otherwise I don't take into account bouncing. I'm also assuming
> that the grenade launcher is a direct-fire weapon, instead of an
> indirect-fire weapon, and I have no idea how accurate that is.

Neither do I, but modern grenade launchers do fire in quite large arcs
(40x46 mm grenades weigh in the order of 200 grams, and have a muzzle
velocity of only about 75 m/s) which should make hitting a point target
more difficult. Still, IIRC with an M79 it's easily possible to put a
grenade through a window at 200 m so hitting close enough to a person to
count it as a direct hit in SR should be doable.

Anyway, SR's mini-grenades are lighter and thus probably faster, which
would make them more accurate. I simply use them as any other firearm, as
a direct-fire weapon, but with the option of using indirect fire if the
player wants to (so far, I don't think anyone has).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hoera, we leven nog!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Scott Peterson herne454@*******.net
Subject:	Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:17:01 -0700

Message no. 8 Neither do I, but modern grenade launchers do fire in quite large arcs
(40x46 mm grenades weigh in the order of 200 grams, and have a muzzle
velocity of only about 75 m/s) which should make hitting a point target
more difficult. Still, IIRC with an M79 it's easily possible to put a
grenade through a window at 200 m so hitting close enough to a person to
count it as a direct hit in SR should be doable.

Anyway, SR's mini-grenades are lighter and thus probably faster, which
would make them more accurate. I simply use them as any other firearm, as
a direct-fire weapon, but with the option of using indirect fire if the
player wants to (so far, I don't think anyone has).

The thing is Gurth is the GL's in 2060+ still using low pressure launch
techiniques, are the ring airfoils, do they use balistic propellant has
never been said.

The M-79 and M-203 use low presssue and thus the loud thump. I carried an
M-203 for 7 years and was damn good with it after a year or so. Point
targets (3meter target area) out to 300 were easy as hell to after you
learned the weapon. Your right its a high trajectory flight path of the
round, one main reason was in the 70's durring/after Nam the grunts that had
been there had complained that the Grenidier was allways thumping the round
right over thier heads to hit point targets from support roll for a movement
to contact. They tended to stick the Grenidier further back to help stop
blue on blue incidenets. Indirect fire roll of the M-79/M-203 type weapons
has always been over rated. But heres why they teach you it. When your on
the defensive on a hill top you tend to set up on the reverser military
crest of the hill top. Tghat is the top and the bulk of the hill is between
you and the enmeny. Many reasons but the most important is they shilouetted
thems selves as they came over. When facing a deliberate attack for a large
gropu the Grenidiers would fire behind the approaching enemy to force them
into the kill zone and haveing gotten that range when the enemy retreated
they would lob rounds in on top of them causing more casuilties.. If you
still dont the see the indirect fire application of a grenade launcher, put
it away and geta mingun:)

Now about rig air foils. Basicaly take a coke can cut the ends off it line
with shot or prefragmented wire thenline it with explosives and then if you
are low tech (like us now compared to shadowrun put a discarding sabot cap
and create a low pressure feild for propellant. Like a standard grenade.
Now the big thing here is that when you fire the cap drops and you have this
low flat trajectory projectile that spins. Hence better accuracy, longer
range, and fast flight time and its point target accuracy is hot shit. Your
indirect capability is gone but for point targets out to 300+ meters its
nice.

Last I heard RL wise they had a 'less-than-leathal' rubber one for
applicatins in riot control as far back as the late 60's. They were working
on a leathal one but lost the contract when Nam heated up and they had to go
with the M-79 and its famil of ammuntion. I do know they made a 75mm
version for a recoiless rilfe for l;eathal applications so it stands to
reason they could have them for the M-203 if they wanted them.

Ok Non rl You could line the explosive with a propellant and make is a ram
jet (scram jet) type munition....Nasty recoil but kick butt range andfaster
flight times and more.

Speaking of flight times last I recall the shadowrun combat phase is 3
seconds right??? well at 75 meters a second if your target is outside 225
meters the ronud wont hit till the middle of the next 3 second phase:) Use
that one on your thumpers.

Ok have led up to this but what if the GL's of 2060+ use propellant....this
brings upalot of questions. From the pics of the MGL series weapons I think
they have propellants but the ruels say they have indirect fire ability.
So that makes me wonder.

Any way more ammunition for the discusssion....and if you know where the
spellcheck is on IE 4.90 tell me:)

Is Scott tough? Yes, Talented? On occasion, Brave? Oh Certainly! He is also
erratic, irresponsible, accident prone and a constant threat to public
Safety. The trick is to keep him pointed in the right direction.

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it.
Whenever they shall grow weary of the exhisting government, they can
exercise thier constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary
right to dismember or overthrow it. ---Abraham Lincoln

From:	Scott Peterson herne454@*******.net
Subject:	Fw: Grenades and Explosives.
Date:	Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:47:17 -0700

Message no. 9 -----Original Message-----
From: Scott Peterson <herne454@*******.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Grenades and Explosives.

>
>Neither do I, but modern grenade launchers do fire in quite large arcs
>(40x46 mm grenades weigh in the order of 200 grams, and have a muzzle
>velocity of only about 75 m/s) which should make hitting a point target
>more difficult. Still, IIRC with an M79 it's easily possible to put a
>grenade through a window at 200 m so hitting close enough to a person to
>count it as a direct hit in SR should be doable.
>
>Anyway, SR's mini-grenades are lighter and thus probably faster, which
>would make them more accurate. I simply use them as any other firearm, as
>a direct-fire weapon, but with the option of using indirect fire if the
>player wants to (so far, I don't think anyone has).
>
>
>The thing is Gurth is the GL's in 2060+ still using low pressure launch
>techiniques, are the ring airfoils, do they use balistic propellant has
>never been said.
>
>The M-79 and M-203 use low presssue and thus the loud thump. I carried an
>M-203 for 7 years and was damn good with it after a year or so. Point
>targets (3meter target area) out to 300 were easy as hell to after you
>learned the weapon. Your right its a high trajectory flight path of the
>round, one main reason was in the 70's durring/after Nam the grunts that
had
>been there had complained that the Grenidier was allways thumping the round
>right over thier heads to hit point targets from support roll for a
movement
>to contact. They tended to stick the Grenidier further back to help stop
>blue on blue incidenets. Indirect fire roll of the M-79/M-203 type weapons
>has always been over rated. But heres why they teach you it. When your on
>the defensive on a hill top you tend to set up on the reverser military
>crest of the hill top. Tghat is the top and the bulk of the hill is
between
>you and the enmeny. Many reasons but the most important is they
shilouetted
>thems selves as they came over. When facing a deliberate attack for a
large
>gropu the Grenidiers would fire behind the approaching enemy to force them
>into the kill zone and haveing gotten that range when the enemy retreated
>they would lob rounds in on top of them causing more casuilties.. If you
>still dont the see the indirect fire application of a grenade launcher, put
>it away and geta mingun:)
>
>Now about rig air foils. Basicaly take a coke can cut the ends off it line
>with shot or prefragmented wire thenline it with explosives and then if you
>are low tech (like us now compared to shadowrun put a discarding sabot cap
>and create a low pressure feild for propellant. Like a standard grenade.
>Now the big thing here is that when you fire the cap drops and you have
this
>low flat trajectory projectile that spins. Hence better accuracy, longer
>range, and fast flight time and its point target accuracy is hot shit.
Your
>indirect capability is gone but for point targets out to 300+ meters its
>nice.
>
>Last I heard RL wise they had a 'less-than-leathal' rubber one for
>applicatins in riot control as far back as the late 60's. They were
working
>on a leathal one but lost the contract when Nam heated up and they had to
go
>with the M-79 and its famil of ammuntion. I do know they made a 75mm
>version for a recoiless rilfe for l;eathal applications so it stands to
>reason they could have them for the M-203 if they wanted them.
>
>Ok Non rl You could line the explosive with a propellant and make is a ram
>jet (scram jet) type munition....Nasty recoil but kick butt range andfaster
>flight times and more.
>
>Speaking of flight times last I recall the shadowrun combat phase is 3
>seconds right??? well at 75 meters a second if your target is outside 225
>meters the ronud wont hit till the middle of the next 3 second phase:) Use
>that one on your thumpers.
>
>
>Ok have led up to this but what if the GL's of 2060+ use propellant....this
>brings upalot of questions. From the pics of the MGL series weapons I
think
>they have propellants but the ruels say they have indirect fire ability.
>So that makes me wonder.
>
>Any way more ammunition for the discusssion....and if you know where the
>spellcheck is on IE 4.90 tell me:)
>
>Is Scott tough? Yes, Talented? On occasion, Brave? Oh Certainly! He is
also
>erratic, irresponsible, accident prone and a constant threat to public
>Safety. The trick is to keep him pointed in the right direction.
>
>This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it.
>Whenever they shall grow weary of the exhisting government, they can
>exercise thier constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary
>right to dismember or overthrow it. ---Abraham Lincoln
>

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