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Message no. 1
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:10:27 -0700
Tempers are as always flaring up because of the layout of a book, it
contents, and how people are criticising them.

Guess what? I'm sick and tired of hearing about it, and I'm sure a good
number of others are.

I'm sick and tired of reading the same flipping arguments every time a new
book comes out, and it's insulting to me to see the same people thinking
they can change everyone's opinions with sharp words and borderline insults.

One person has already voluntarily kill-filed the subject, I'm hoping
everyone else involved on either side of the cinder war, regardless, will
do the same.

Take the arguments to private email, this is a place for discussion, not
headbashing over differing opinions.
--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery - http://members.home.com/dvixen
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
Vrianna - http://www.eternalconclave.com/AC
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 2
From: Grey metis76@*****.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:35:17 -0700 (PDT)
--- Dvixen <dvixen@****.com> wrote:
> Tempers are as always flaring up because of the
> layout of a book, it
> contents, and how people are criticising them.
>
> Guess what? I'm sick and tired of hearing about it,
> and I'm sure a good
> number of others are.
>
> I'm sick and tired of reading the same flipping
> arguments every time a new
> book comes out, and it's insulting to me to see the
> same people thinking
> they can change everyone's opinions with sharp words
> and borderline insults.
>
> One person has already voluntarily kill-filed the
> subject, I'm hoping
> everyone else involved on either side of the cinder
> war, regardless, will
> do the same.
>
> Take the arguments to private email, this is a place
> for discussion, not
> headbashing over differing opinions.
> --
> Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery -
> http://members.home.com/dvixen
> Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
> Vrianna - http://www.eternalconclave.com/AC
> "What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
> Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the
> abyss.
>
>
>
>

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you!
I'm new to the list so I didn't want to complain, so I
just deleted everything that was coming in about that
subject. *hug!*

Grey

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Message no. 3
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:37:29 -0700
At Grey, 02:35 PM 12/04/00 wrote:
>Oh thank you, thank you, thank you!
>I'm new to the list so I didn't want to complain, so I
>just deleted everything that was coming in about that
>subject. *hug!*

Gah, get of me you slimey worm. :P

(Btw, you should really have done some snippage in your post, that's
another Gridsec stompable offense, as is hugging me. ;)
--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery - http://members.home.com/dvixen
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
Vrianna - http://www.eternalconclave.com/AC
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 4
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:12:34 -0400
Dvixen wrote:

> <SNIP>

> *hug!*
>
> Gah, get of me you slimey worm. :P
>
> (Btw, you should really have done some snippage in your post, that's
> another Gridsec stompable offense, as is hugging me. ;)
>

Yeah, didn't you know? DVixen (never DVixi or other cute name :^)) isn't the
nice guy in the whole GRIDSEC division (that's Dave Bueher's department, IIRC).
I was about to suggest the same thing myself, even though it smacks of
censorship. But anyway, that's for another time and place...
<SNIP>
--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance.
In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 5
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:55:09 -0400
From: "Dvixen" <dvixen@****.com>
> Tempers are as always flaring up because of the layout of a book, it
> contents, and how people are criticising them.
>
> <snip>
>
> Take the arguments to private email, this is a place for discussion, not
> headbashing over differing opinions.

Since you knew you were going to hear from me, I suppose this comes as
little surprise. But, I must ask; is it absolutely forbidden to discuss any
elements of the layout of any new Shadowrun sourcebook? Even without asking
questions like how recent a book must be to be considered "new," this seems
a little vague or perhaps restrictive to me.

Perhaps a more specific guideline of what criticisms we're not allowed to
offer to FASA material would be in order. This might be a more effective
technique than giving us a list of topics that we *are* allowed to discuss,
which I think must be the logical next step.

Or are we simply requested to refrain from "fighting" over the issue? In
which case, I wonder, are we not requested to refrain from fighting about
everything already?

My apologies, but I remain confused, as ever, as to where the lines of what
I may safely say here are located. This, too, we go through every time, and
I've never understood. The failing must be my own.

abortion_engine
Message no. 6
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:41:21 -0700
Strago wrote:
>
> I was about to suggest the same thing myself, even though it smacks of
> censorship. But anyway, that's for another time and place...

People keep referring to "censorship" on the net, and that's not what
censorship is. Since GRIDSEC isn't the government, they can't censor
you. Shutting down a thread is no different from Dvixen asking a guest
in her home to stop discussing an irritating topic, and removing a
troublesome subscriber is no different than asking someone to leave.

Technically speaking, asking that a thread stop is GRIDSEC's job, but
otherwise...killing a thread isn't censorship.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 7
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:14:42 -0400
"Deirdre M. Brooks" wrote:

> Strago wrote:
> >
> > I was about to suggest the same thing myself, even though it smacks of
> > censorship. But anyway, that's for another time and place...
> <SNIP>
> Technically speaking, asking that a thread stop is GRIDSEC's job, but
> otherwise...killing a thread isn't censorship.
>

Actually, I was referring to the fact that we could no longer talk about
that topic. That sounds kinda like censorship. As you say, killing threads
is their job. But killing a thread which has degenerated into a heated
argument and saying "No, you can't talk about this" are two totally
different things, IMO.

>
> --
> Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
> Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
> "If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
> -- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 8
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:19:39 -0700
Strago wrote:
>
> Actually, I was referring to the fact that we could no longer talk about
> that topic. That sounds kinda like censorship. As you say, killing threads
> is their job. But killing a thread which has degenerated into a heated
> argument and saying "No, you can't talk about this" are two totally
> different things, IMO.

Neither of which is censorship.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 9
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:40:24 -0700
From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> Strago wrote:
> >
> > Actually, I was referring to the fact that we could no longer talk about
> > that topic. That sounds kinda like censorship. As you say, killing
threads
> > is their job. But killing a thread which has degenerated into a heated
> > argument and saying "No, you can't talk about this" are two totally
> > different things, IMO.
>
> Neither of which is censorship.

Censhorship
1 a : the institution, system, or practice of censoring b : the actions or
practices of censors; especially : censorial control exercised repressively

Censor
2 : one who supervises conduct and morals: as a : an official who examines
materials (as publications or films) for objectionable matter

Sounds like it to me ;)~ YMMV

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 10
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:43:39 -0700
Tzeentch wrote:
>
> Sounds like it to me ;)~ YMMV

In my experienced, it's invoked solely to decry the horrible deprivation
of freedom of speech - which is not something guaranteed on mailing
lists, and not everyone is American.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 11
From: Jinx jinxed@***********.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:17:22 -0500
At 09:40 PM 4/12/00, you wrote:

>From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> > Strago wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, I was referring to the fact that we could no longer talk about
> > > that topic. That sounds kinda like censorship. As you say, killing
>threads
> > > is their job. But killing a thread which has degenerated into a heated
> > > argument and saying "No, you can't talk about this" are two
totally
> > > different things, IMO.
> >
> > Neither of which is censorship.
>
>Censhorship
>1 a : the institution, system, or practice of censoring b : the actions or
>practices of censors; especially : censorial control exercised repressively
>
>Censor
>2 : one who supervises conduct and morals: as a : an official who examines
>materials (as publications or films) for objectionable matter
>
>Sounds like it to me ;)~ YMMV

GridSec is not keeping you from talking about it - not even asking that you
stop talking about it! - just asking that you take it elsewhere so the rest
of us don't have to listen to a handful of people repeat themselves in ever
more detail. That's not censorship, not even by your definitions. Over
private email (as was suggested, IIRC) the discussion could be dissected in
as much detail as anyone cares for, without disturbing the rest of us and
making me wade through -- HOW many e-mails flooded my tiny mailbox today?
Over 175 from this list alone! I'm surprised they didn't bounce, actually...

>Ken

Jinx
Message no. 12
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:25:09 -0400
Tzeentch wrote:
>
> From: "Deirdre M. Brooks" <xenya@********.com>
> > Strago wrote:
> > >
> > > Actually, I was referring to the fact that we could no longer talk about
> > > that topic. That sounds kinda like censorship. As you say, killing
> threads
> > > is their job. But killing a thread which has degenerated into a heated
> > > argument and saying "No, you can't talk about this" are two
totally
> > > different things, IMO.
> >
> > Neither of which is censorship.
>
> Censhorship
> 1 a : the institution, system, or practice of censoring b : the actions or
> practices of censors; especially : censorial control exercised repressively
>
> Censor
> 2 : one who supervises conduct and morals: as a : an official who examines
> materials (as publications or films) for objectionable matter
>
> Sounds like it to me ;)~ YMMV


The big difference between censorship and thread killing here on RN is
that a killed thread can still be discussed privately. Censorship
tends to be an all or nothing approach (You cannot discuss it anywhere
in any form or you can).

--
Iridios
--
Evolution is a harsh mistress.

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
12:20:52 AM/265:02:04 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 13
From: Matthew Dee gastrognome@*******.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:32:14 EST
Ditto! Bravo! There's a time and place for criticism; there's no *good* time
or place for whinging, intolerance of other people's viewpoints or vitriol.
Keep it clean and keep it interesting, I say.

The Gastrognome.

>From: Grey <metis76@*****.com>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: [Gridsec] Break Time
>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:35:17 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>
>--- Dvixen <dvixen@****.com> wrote:
> > Tempers are as always flaring up because of the
> > layout of a book, it
> > contents, and how people are criticising them.
> >
> > Guess what? I'm sick and tired of hearing about it,
> > and I'm sure a good
> > number of others are.
> >
> > I'm sick and tired of reading the same flipping
> > arguments every time a new
> > book comes out, and it's insulting to me to see the
> > same people thinking
> > they can change everyone's opinions with sharp words
> > and borderline insults.
> >
> > One person has already voluntarily kill-filed the
> > subject, I'm hoping
> > everyone else involved on either side of the cinder
> > war, regardless, will
> > do the same.
> >
> > Take the arguments to private email, this is a place
> > for discussion, not
> > headbashing over differing opinions.
> > --
> > Dvixen - dvixen@****.com =-=-= Gallery -
> > http://members.home.com/dvixen
> > Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
> > Vrianna - http://www.eternalconclave.com/AC
> > "What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
> > Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the
> > abyss.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>Oh thank you, thank you, thank you!
>I'm new to the list so I didn't want to complain, so I
>just deleted everything that was coming in about that
>subject. *hug!*
>
>Grey
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
>http://invites.yahoo.com
>
>

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: Matthew Dee gastrognome@*******.com
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:35:30 EST
Oops! Sorry! I'll snip things too from now on. But at least Grey only
*hugged* you, whereas I was severely tempted to give a big, wet sloppy
kiss... (nasty thought, neh?) :)

The Gastrognome.

>From: Dvixen <dvixen@****.com>
>
>At Grey, 02:35 PM 12/04/00 wrote:
>>Oh thank you, thank you, thank you!
>>I'm new to the list so I didn't want to complain, so I
>>just deleted everything that was coming in about that
>>subject. *hug!*
>
>Gah, get of me you slimey worm. :P
>
>(Btw, you should really have done some snippage in your post, that's
>another Gridsec stompable offense, as is hugging me. ;)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 15
From: Brian T Sniffen brians@***.EDU
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: 13 Apr 2000 04:14:30 -0400
Iridios <iridios@*****.com> writes:

> The big difference between censorship and thread killing here on RN is
> that a killed thread can still be discussed privately. Censorship
> tends to be an all or nothing approach (You cannot discuss it anywhere
> in any form or you can).

In particular, anyone who doesn't like Gridsec policy is welcome to
start their own list, then encourage everyone to use that instead.
Presumably the reasons would include "More Flame Wars! More Undead
Essence-sucking Threads That Never End!"

As long as you can take your toys and go home without excessive
hardship*, it isn't censorship.

-Brian

* This is why it's amoral for the US Government to implement this
policy, even though it's just fine for a mailing list such as ShadowRN:
you can't just pick up and leave, because the US has the land (bits
are free), the economy, the currency, and so on.
Message no. 16
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: [Gridsec] Break Time
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:57:07 -0600
abortion_engine wrote:

>Since you knew you were going to hear from me, I suppose this comes as
>little surprise. But, I must ask; is it absolutely forbidden to discuss any
>elements of the layout of any new Shadowrun sourcebook? Even without asking
>questions like how recent a book must be to be considered "new," this seems
>a little vague or perhaps restrictive to me.

I'll do my best to try to clear up the confusion :)

>Perhaps a more specific guideline of what criticisms we're not allowed to
>offer to FASA material would be in order. This might be a more effective
>technique than giving us a list of topics that we *are* allowed to discuss,
>which I think must be the logical next step.
>
>Or are we simply requested to refrain from "fighting" over the issue? In
>which case, I wonder, are we not requested to refrain from fighting about
>everything already?
>
>My apologies, but I remain confused, as ever, as to where the lines of what
>I may safely say here are located. This, too, we go through every time, and
>I've never understood. The failing must be my own.

Members of ShadowRN are expected to follow the guidelines per the ShadowRN FAQ.

ShadowRNers are asked to: Stay on topic, pay for advertisements, use
emoticons, edit replies, post with a column width of 72, not reply with
"me to" type posts, respond privately when possible, and to refrain from
sending chain letters to ShadowRN.

ShadowRNers are expected to refrain from: sending attachments, flaming list
members, slandering anyone, debating religion, debating operating systems,
debating email programs, debating which shadowrun archetype is the best,
violating copyright law, spamming the list, and/or harassing members of the
list.

The members of GridSec are expected to help the list's Administrators.

We (GridSec) help by communicating with list members who are not following
the list guidelines, explaining what is expected, and politely asking them
to follow the list guidelines.

We also help by using our judgement to close OT threads, end flame wars,
send private conversations to private email, etc.

This last one is where the confusion seems to be occurring.

The thread wasn't being closed because it was forbidden, but because it was
becoming old and of interest to a small portion of the list. It was also,
IMHO, taking up a considerable amount of bandwidth. This was one of those
instances when a member of GridSec felt it was appropriate to ask that the
topic be taken to private email. The only debates which are forbidden on
ShadowRN are debates concerning religion, operating systems, email
programs, and "who's better, Sams or Physad" type debates.

Now to Dvixen's email.

Dvixen wrote:
>Tempers are as always flaring up because of the layout of a book, it
>contents, and how people are criticising them.
>
>Guess what? I'm sick and tired of hearing about it, and I'm sure a good
>number of others are.
>
>I'm sick and tired of reading the same flipping arguments every time a new
>book comes out, and it's insulting to me to see the same people thinking
>they can change everyone's opinions with sharp words and borderline insults.
>
>One person has already voluntarily kill-filed the subject, I'm hoping
>everyone else involved on either side of the cinder war, regardless, will
>do the same.

In the first four paragraphs Dvixen stated her perceptions and
opinions. Try not to confuse these statements with the GridSec message.

>Take the arguments to private email, this is a place for discussion, not
>headbashing over differing opinions.

And here it is, with a bit of explanation thrown in.

My translation: Dvixen felt the thread had degenerated into an argument
that was not appropriate for ShadowRN, and that it should be taken to
private email.

In short, it wasn't the subject of the thread that was really at issue, but
the nature of the thread. The discussion was being carried out by a very
small portion of the list, was taking up a lot of bandwidth, was becoming
heated at times, and appeared to have the possibility of developing into a
flame war. It was also starting to run around in circles.

Did I miss anything? :)

To Life,
-Graht
Your friendly neighborhood ShadowRN GridSec Assistant
--
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-gridsec@*********.com
ShadowRN Admin
-Adam Jury <adamj@*********.html.com>
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-Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.html.com, mark.imbriaco@*****.com>
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Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

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