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Message no. 1
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:32:08 -0700
These threads are to be brought to relevance to Shadowrun, or they die NOW.

No discussion. Thank you.

--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com - ShadowRN GridSec Consulatant (100¥/hr)
Of course I know where the bodies are buried! I've got the FSH!
ShadowRN FAQ - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Keeper of the Rabid Woodchuck - Blue Moon Pesterer of The DLOH
Message no. 2
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:49:34 EDT
In a message dated 5/20/99 9:33:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dvixen@****.com
writes:

> These threads are to be brought to relevance to Shadowrun, or they die NOW.
>
> No discussion. Thank you.

OK. Shadowrun relevance.

How about the fact that somehow, mystically, in the Shadowrun universe,
ethnic / skin color discrimination disappeared? It wouldn't. Not with the
polarised views we've seen (and displayed, yes) here.

Sure, maybe a CASan bigot, in the Humanis, would think white trolls are worse
than black "normals" ... but that does NOT mean the black normals would be
welcomed to dinner with open arms!

It also means that bigot would really really REALLY hate a BLACK troll.

And that white troll might hate the black troll more than the white, human
bigot, too.

There. That's some shadowrun relevancy for you. Because as entrenched as
reverse-discrimination is, and the racism which prompted it ... it wouldn't
go away because of a few big, warty babies and some thin, pointy-eared kids.

It'd only get WORSE, and more muddled.

I can see some white-supremacist group claiming, during the early days of the
awakening, "see! did we not WARN you of the consequences of not fighting for
racial purity! GOD'S WRATH IS UPON YOU!" <insert continued rabid slavering
here>

I can see studies "proving" by statistical analysis, that <insert ethnic
group here>'s genetics are the root cause of most goblinisations, by heredity
... heck by being too CLOSE to "one of them" on the bus.

Goblinisation would stir up racial and ethnic hatreds, while fomenting an
atmosphere of paranoia and suspicion at all levels of society. Of ALL
societies.

When a given minority has their UGE-afflicted held up as examples of how
inferior they REALLY were all along ... it's as like as not that those Orks
and Trolls will be reviled by that very self-same minority group, for
"betraying them all." For "giving the <oppressor race> the excuses
they
needed."

IOW, for being born different.

Sorry to sound a bit caustic here, GRIDSEC, but ... is that relevant enough??
Because there were, what, _two_ people who wanted the original threads to
die, and some three or _more_ of us (at least four counting Mr. Getchell) who
did _not_.

Ah well.

Whatever. It's not worth the trouble to argue the point.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 3
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:04:02 -0700
At 09:49 PM 20/05/99 , GMPax@***.com annoyed me by writing:
>In a message dated 5/20/99 9:33:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dvixen@****.com
>writes:
>
>> These threads are to be brought to relevance to Shadowrun, or they die NOW.
>>
>> No discussion. Thank you.
>
>OK. Shadowrun relevance.

>How about the fact that somehow, mystically, in the Shadowrun universe,
>ethnic / skin color discrimination disappeared? It wouldn't. Not with the
>polarised views we've seen (and displayed, yes) here.

I recall reading something that in the light of UGE and Goblinization,
ethinic racism became 'not as important' as it used to be. You are correct
when you say it will not totally disappear, but, what is a
<humanis/kkk/insert racist group here> going to worry about more, the black
man who's 'kind' has always been, or that huge hulking and smelly troll?

>Sure, maybe a CASan bigot, in the Humanis, would think white trolls are worse
>than black "normals" ... but that does NOT mean the black normals would be
>welcomed to dinner with open arms!

True, but for some people, who has more of a societal 'learned' racism,
they will 'learn' that these trolls/orks/ghouls that are always in the news
for XXX reason, after all, they are new (compared to the jews. ;) and trid
is rather sensationalist at the best of times....

>It also means that bigot would really really REALLY hate a BLACK troll.

Yeppers.

>And that white troll might hate the black troll more than the white, human
>bigot, too.

Also true.

>There. That's some shadowrun relevancy for you. Because as entrenched as
>reverse-discrimination is, and the racism which prompted it ... it wouldn't
>go away because of a few big, warty babies and some thin, pointy-eared kids.

No, but as I said, there is a good chance, that with some people just won't
seem to think lour of skin is of equal threat as someone twice your size. ;)

>It'd only get WORSE, and more muddled.

Muddled? It's a whole third dimension... It used to be religion and colour,
now in SR it's religion, colour, and metatype....

>I can see some white-supremacist group claiming, during the early days of the
>awakening, "see! did we not WARN you of the consequences of not fighting for
>racial purity! GOD'S WRATH IS UPON YOU!" <insert continued rabid slavering
>here>

Which is why one of my GMs rules that many of the churches ruled against
Magic and Metahumanity.

>I can see studies "proving" by statistical analysis, that <insert ethnic
>group here>'s genetics are the root cause of most goblinisations, by heredity
>... heck by being too CLOSE to "one of them" on the bus.

With any amount of data, you can always prove your point, nhe? ;)

>Goblinisation would stir up racial and ethnic hatreds, while fomenting an
>atmosphere of paranoia and suspicion at all levels of society. Of ALL
>societies.

Correct. (Well, I dunno about the awakened potheads, but that's just me and
Ziggy's POV)

>When a given minority has their UGE-afflicted held up as examples of how
>inferior they REALLY were all along ... it's as like as not that those Orks
>and Trolls will be reviled by that very self-same minority group, for
>"betraying them all." For "giving the <oppressor race> the
excuses they
>needed."
>
>IOW, for being born different.
>
>Sorry to sound a bit caustic here, GRIDSEC, but ... is that relevant enough??

Quite, thanks. :) (Now everyone else MAKE SURE IT STAYS THAT WAY!!! ;)

> Because there were, what, _two_ people who wanted the original threads to
>die, and some three or _more_ of us (at least four counting Mr. Getchell) who
>did _not_.
>
>Ah well.
>
>Whatever. It's not worth the trouble to argue the point.

/me wanders away from the copmuter for a while chortling madly....


--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 4
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:27:59 -0700 (PDT)
> How about the fact that somehow, mystically, in the Shadowrun
universe, ethnic / skin color discrimination disappeared? It wouldn't.
Not with the polarised views we've seen (and displayed, yes) here.
<BigSnip(TM)>
> Sean

Okay, Sean - this is unrealistic yes. But how does this strike you as a
reason why it 'disappeared'?

FASA wanted to avoid exactly the kind of things that's been going on on
the list for the past few days.

Shadowrun is a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be a
setting for people to air their views on racism, especially when those
views cause confrontation. That's for real life, where doing so can
actually make a difference.

Racism is Shadowrun is confined to the metatypes because, while all
racism is vile and nasty, anti-metahuman views can be depersonalised
enough that most people won't get shirty about it. Sure, my elven
character gets pissed when he's discriminated against for being an elf
- but I, the player, don't.

Good enough reason?
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 5
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:22:19 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads


> > How about the fact that somehow, mystically, in the Shadowrun
> universe, ethnic / skin color discrimination disappeared? It wouldn't.
> Not with the polarised views we've seen (and displayed, yes) here.
> <BigSnip(TM)>
> > Sean
>
> Okay, Sean - this is unrealistic yes. But how does this strike you as a
> reason why it 'disappeared'?
>
> FASA wanted to avoid exactly the kind of things that's been going on on
> the list for the past few days.

I agree.

>
> Shadowrun is a game. It's supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be a
> setting for people to air their views on racism, especially when those
> views cause confrontation. That's for real life, where doing so can
> actually make a difference.

Uhh gotta start somewhere right man? Sure it has ruled the list but I know
that I for one have not been more entertained with the list for quite some
time. Hehe Guess I am a sucker for a fun debate. <Fun = one that
everyone has an openion on and can feel free to voice.> Sigh I just wish it
didn't have to die. Noone has resorted to name calling or eye gouges or
anything!! It is soo great that everyone is open minded enuff to actually
be able to diuscuss this topic without resorting to Yo Mama insults!

> Racism is Shadowrun is confined to the metatypes because, while all
> racism is vile and nasty, anti-metahuman views can be depersonalised
> enough that most people won't get shirty about it. Sure, my elven
> character gets pissed when he's discriminated against for being an elf
> - but I, the player, don't.

I agree also.. but am playing a black male in a SR game.. Wouldn't mind a
little racism just for fun. We do play the gee guess he is the only black
male around thing around the table.. considering how that side was left
out.

> Good enough reason?

Yea I guess.. sigh. But I was haveing such fun!

> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

Josh
Message no. 6
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:53:32 -0700 (PDT)
> Uhh gotta start somewhere right man?

Errr...me talking about the game itself and the fact that colour-based
racism is not mentioned in any products except to say, "No, it pretty
much doesn't exist in 2060." Me not talking about discussing it on the
list. IMO, that's 'real life', although we're discussing the game.

> I agree also.. but am playing a black male in a SR game.. Wouldn't
mind a little racism just for fun.
> Josh

Okay, you're just plain weird, then. :)

Personally, I prefer racism in the game to take a back seat, except for
when it specifically advances the plot (you're working against Humanis,
for example). It's something you see enough of in real life, as far as
I'm concerned.
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 7
From: Joshua Mumme Grimlakin@****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:15:46 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads


> > Uhh gotta start somewhere right man?
>
> Errr...me talking about the game itself and the fact that colour-based
> racism is not mentioned in any products except to say, "No, it pretty
> much doesn't exist in 2060." Me not talking about discussing it on the
> list. IMO, that's 'real life', although we're discussing the game.
>
> > I agree also.. but am playing a black male in a SR game.. Wouldn't
> mind a little racism just for fun.
> > Josh
>
> Okay, you're just plain weird, then. :)
>
> Personally, I prefer racism in the game to take a back seat, except for
> when it specifically advances the plot (you're working against Humanis,
> for example). It's something you see enough of in real life, as far as
> I'm concerned.

I dunno wouldn't mind being able to play the avenging angel from time to
time. :) Just how my carachter would be. We allready skim from humanis
groups for extra funding. <they woulda spent it the wrong way anyways
right?> And my carachter allready contributes clost to 10 percent of his
earnings to a local boys <now becoming boys/girls> club to help improve life
on the streets for the kids. And I don't even do it for Karma. HUmm now I
have a question.. any other runners on the streets out their secretly or
not contribute to organizations they they like? IE any other free wheelin
nice guy runner groups out and about?

> ==> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

Josh

<playing the goody too shoes of shadowrun aparrantly.>
Message no. 8
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:22:56 EDT
In a message dated 5/20/99 11:24:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> Good enough reason?

Oh, I know the DESIGN reasons well enough. But DVixen wanted some SR
relevance, so I supplied it. :-)

And it's entirely possible some GM may want to experiment with, say, and
all-metahuman group in a campaign where the anti-meta prejudices are played
strongly indeed. Gives the runners a "cause" to fight for, which most folks
could find to be good one ... and a heroic one, perhaps something a mite
uncommon for 'runners, eh?

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 9
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:28:32 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/99 12:23:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Grimlakin@****.com writes:

> I agree also.. but am playing a black male in a SR game.. Wouldn't mind a
> little racism just for fun. We do play the gee guess he is the only black
> male around thing around the table.. considering how that side was left
> out.

Actually I had a double-minority Troll once; young kid of african extraction,
went through UGE (his mother got a bit ... _tipsy_ ... with an unexpressed
troll in HS ... <g>), got tossed out on his butt by his Humanis-lovin' mom.
Made for some interesting background and RP, in fact ...

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 10
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:45:51 -0500
> > > Uhh gotta start somewhere right man?
> >
> > Errr...me talking about the game itself and the fact that colour-based
> > racism is not mentioned in any products except to say, "No, it pretty
> > much doesn't exist in 2060." Me not talking about discussing it on the
> > list. IMO, that's 'real life', although we're discussing the game.
> >
> > > I agree also.. but am playing a black male in a SR game.. Wouldn't
> > mind a little racism just for fun.
> > > Josh
> >
> > Okay, you're just plain weird, then. :)
> >
> > Personally, I prefer racism in the game to take a back seat, except for
> > when it specifically advances the plot (you're working against Humanis,
> > for example). It's something you see enough of in real life, as far as
> > I'm concerned.
>
> I dunno wouldn't mind being able to play the avenging angel from time to
> time. :) Just how my carachter would be. We allready skim from humanis
> groups for extra funding. <they woulda spent it the wrong way anyways
> right?> And my carachter allready contributes clost to 10 percent of his
> earnings to a local boys <now becoming boys/girls> club to help improve
> life
> on the streets for the kids. And I don't even do it for Karma. HUmm now
> I
> have a question.. any other runners on the streets out their secretly or
> not contribute to organizations they they like? IE any other free wheelin
> nice guy runner groups out and about?
>
I don't know. Racism, like it or not is a part of the game. And while I
disagree with it personally, I still think it has a place in SR. I don't
like bugs either, but I'm running in Bug City. Done right, it could be
interesting. For instance, like our avenging angel above, my old character
was a racist elf. He even went so far as to wear swastikas and such. And no
one liked him, but he didn't care. He was superior.

In a Cyberpunk: 2020 game a few years back (back when it was cool) our group
made up a street gang to play. We were the Hitler Youth and shaved our
heads, chanted stupid slogans and some such. Mostly we just got in fights.
Our characters didn't know a damn thing about nazis, racism, or anything
else related to our name. All we knew was that the SS sure had cool
uniforms.
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 10:54:18 EDT
In a message dated 5/20/1999 8:52:13 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
GMPax@***.com writes:

> Whatever. It's not worth the trouble to argue the point.
>
> Sean
> GM Pax


Then why the HELL!?! Did you get assanine and put this in here???

-K
Message no. 12
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:23:17 CST
>OK. Shadowrun relevance.

<BIG SNIP>
Actually, there are a few groups in the SR universe who believe that the
only people are white humans. The Order for example.




Geoff Haacke

"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."



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Message no. 13
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:23:27 CST
>OK. Shadowrun relevance.

<BIG SNIP>
Actually, there are a few groups in the SR universe who believe that the
only people are white humans. The Order for example.




Geoff Haacke

"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."



______________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 11:26:06 -0400 (EDT)
GMPax@***.com writes:
> How about the fact that somehow, mystically, in the Shadowrun universe,
> ethnic / skin color discrimination disappeared? It wouldn't. Not with the
> polarised views we've seen (and displayed, yes) here.

In fact, it didn't. FASA seems to infer this issue but not
come out and talk about it, since it's a bit of an ugly issue. It
also didn't really need any updating to be transported from today to
the SR world.
I don't need an RPG manual to instruct me on how racism works,
and who hates who. The ugly issues that we have to deal in RL don't
make for good mass-produced RPG material. It's up to the individual
GM whether they should put them into a game.

Someone, either on ShadowRN or rgfc suggested that the racial
modifiers to attributes should be reworked so that orks and trolls do
not have a penalty to intelligence. Has anyone implemented this, and
does it change/add much to a campaign?

> Sorry to sound a bit caustic here, GRIDSEC, but ... is that relevant
> enough??
> Because there were, what, _two_ people who wanted the original threads to
> die, and some three or _more_ of us (at least four counting Mr.
> Getchell) who did _not_.

By my count, DVixen makes for the fourth person asking for
this discussion to go away, the most I've ever heard from on this list
before Gridsec intervenes. You generally don't hear this many because
it's Gridsec's job to make OT threads stop, so that we don't have to
wait until you get however many listmembers your conscience will need
before you take the original discussion topic off-list. It's much
more convenient for one Gridsec member to declare a thread OT than it
is for us to enforce things by yelling until you decide to stop or
voting everytime a thread drifts.
Besides, you don't have to let the thread die. You have the
e-mail addresses of everyone who wishes to take part in the
discussion.

Mark
Message no. 15
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 09:30:06 CST
e player, don't.
>
>Good enough reason?

Good enough for me!!!!! :)

>==>Doc'
>(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)




Geoff Haacke

"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."



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Message no. 16
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:48:37 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/99 10:57:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

> Then why the HELL!?! Did you get assanine and put this in here???

Becaue while the point was not worth arguing publicly, I _did_ want to make
my point and bow out ... not a "cheap parting shot" but a "I disagree, this

is why, but I will comply."

Deal. You wanted more SR on-topic stuff, it was _in_ _the_ _same_ _post_ (I
notice no mention of that, eh?).

Sean
GM Pax
(getting irritated)
Message no. 17
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:56:48 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/99 11:28:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SHODAN+@***.EDU
writes:

> By my count, DVixen makes for the fourth person asking for
> this discussion to go away, the most I've ever heard from on this list
> before Gridsec intervenes. You generally don't hear this many because
> it's Gridsec's job to make OT threads stop, so that we don't have to
> wait until you get however many listmembers your conscience will need
> before you take the original discussion topic off-list. It's much
> more convenient for one Gridsec member to declare a thread OT than it
> is for us to enforce things by yelling until you decide to stop or
> voting everytime a thread drifts.

OK. Kill all the starwas threads not DIRECTLY related to SR (i.e. the ones
not discussing light sabers and jedi in SR terms, but rather, chatting about
when who gets to see it, and where). They are as OT as the racism thread,
and if ANY OT thread (as I have beent old) is to be killed ... THEN KILL
THEM. >:-|

If there are rules, then perhaps they should be either (a) ignored
unilaterally, or (b) enforced unilaterally. To do otherwise is to play
(dis)favorites.

Sean
GM Pax
(the TRULY irritated now)
Message no. 18
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:27:34 -0700
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> Personally, I prefer racism in the game to take a back seat, except for
> when it specifically advances the plot (you're working against Humanis,
> for example). It's something you see enough of in real life, as far as
> I'm concerned.

I know more than a few who want to roleplay the experience. I once played a
metahuman terrorist out for revenge against Humanis/The Hand of Five/etc.

Roleplaying can be useful for exploring themes you don't directly
experience yourself. On the other hand, one must be careful not to
trivialize or satirize certain experiences (like racism).

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Unofficial Fading Suns mailing list
Listowner: Unofficial Trinity mailing list
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 19
From: Graht Graht@**********.worldnet.att.net
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:03:03 -0500
Mark A Shieh wrote:
/
/ By my count, DVixen makes for the fourth person asking for
/this discussion to go away, the most I've ever heard from on this list
/before Gridsec intervenes.

Er, Dvixen *is* a member of GridSec and declared the thread dead in her role as
GridSec.

She got to it before I did, so that's why I didn't say anything. FWIW, per
policy the thread now has 24 hours to die (well, 24 hours from the moment
Dvixen stepped in). Also, I've got a cold and am grumpy as hell and didn't
want to accidently turn my flamethrower on anyone. Please don't place GridSec
on a pedestal. We're only human.

<gets up to take another Advil>


Have fun,
Play nice,
-Graht, your friendly neighborhood GridSec Assistant :)
mailto:graht@********.att.net, ShadowRN GridSec: Nice Guy Division
--
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http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Other GridSec members:
-Gurth - mailto:gurth@******.nl
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List Owner:
-Mark Imbriaco - mailto:mark@*********.html.com
Message no. 20
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:11:35 -0700
> By my count, DVixen makes for the fourth person asking for
>this discussion to go away, the most I've ever heard from on this list
>before Gridsec intervenes. You generally don't hear this many because
>it's Gridsec's job to make OT threads stop, so that we don't have to
>wait until you get however many listmembers your conscience will need
>before you take the original discussion topic off-list. It's much
>more convenient for one Gridsec member to declare a thread OT than it
>is for us to enforce things by yelling until you decide to stop or
>voting everytime a thread drifts.

In case you were not aware, I *AM* GridSec.

> Besides, you don't have to let the thread die. You have the
>e-mail addresses of everyone who wishes to take part in the
>discussion.

Bingo
--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com - ShadowRN GridSec Consulatant (100¥/hr)
Of course I know where the bodies are buried! I've got the FSH!
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Keeper of the Rabid Woodchuck - Blue Moon Pesterer of The DLOH
Message no. 21
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:17:21 -0700
>OK. Kill all the starwas threads not DIRECTLY related to SR (i.e. the ones
>not discussing light sabers and jedi in SR terms, but rather, chatting about
>when who gets to see it, and where). They are as OT as the racism thread,
>and if ANY OT thread (as I have beent old) is to be killed ... THEN KILL
>THEM. >:-|

Then you must not have read the GRIDSEC post I made disallowing Star Wars
non SR talk posted as: [GridSec] The Phantom Menace - READ THIS!, May 18,
at 6:21 by my clock. I *AM* watching the Star Wars threads for both
relevance and spoiler warnings.

>If there are rules, then perhaps they should be either (a) ignored
>unilaterally, or (b) enforced unilaterally. To do otherwise is to play
>(dis)favorites.

Thanks for the flame, but I am not playing favourites or disfavourites.

>Sean
>GM Pax
>(the TRULY irritated now)

Then I suggest you take a few days off from the list.

--
Dvixen - dvixen@****.com - ShadowRN GridSec Consulatant (100¥/hr)
Of course I know where the bodies are buried! I've got the FSH!
ShadowRN FAQ - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair/faqindex.php3
Keeper of the Rabid Woodchuck - Blue Moon Pesterer of The DLOH
Message no. 22
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 03:06:47 EDT
In a message dated 5/22/99 1:19:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dvixen@****.com
writes:

> >OK. Kill all the starwas threads not DIRECTLY related to SR (i.e. the
ones
> >not discussing light sabers and jedi in SR terms, but rather, chatting
> about
> >when who gets to see it, and where). They are as OT as the racism
thread,
> >and if ANY OT thread (as I have beent old) is to be killed ... THEN KILL
> >THEM. >:-|
>
> Then you must not have read the GRIDSEC post I made disallowing Star Wars
> non SR talk posted as: [GridSec] The Phantom Menace - READ THIS!, May 18,
> at 6:21 by my clock. I *AM* watching the Star Wars threads for both
> relevance and spoiler warnings.
>
> >If there are rules, then perhaps they should be either (a) ignored
> >unilaterally, or (b) enforced unilaterally. To do otherwise is to play
> >(dis)favorites.
>
> Thanks for the flame, but I am not playing favourites or disfavourites.
>
> >Sean
> >GM Pax
> >(the TRULY irritated now)
>
> Then I suggest you take a few days off from the list.

<sigh> make it permanent, rather.

Yep, the "to all americans" thread is entirely (read: not at all) SR related.

And my comment was not a flame ... trust me, if I wanted to do that, It would
be _abundantly_ clear it was a FLAME. Rather, that was mere criticism. If
that constitutes a flame hereabouts ... so be it.

The guideline you quoted to me in private mail was "not directly related to
SR, and/or not discussed in SR terms." Well, wether or not people see the
Phantom Menace, and when, and in which country, is HARDLY SR related. And is
HARDLY being discussed in SR terms or an SR light.

It's funny too. You say the Star Wars threads are all fine ... and then your
next mail, in my box, closes one of them. That's a shade hypocritical, no?

I said what I believed: either a rule, if it is such, should be applied 100%
evenly, or it shoudl be discarded, because to do otherwise _is_ to "play
favorites" ... by unevenly applying a rule, one is making judgements on what
they WANT to stay, go, or otherwise. And one hardly boots one's favorites,
eh?

At any rate; the racism threads were far more relevant, given SR includes
human-metahuman racism, than when and where people see a movie. But I guess
people would rather talk about nothings, than note that as impassioned as
people were in the racism debate, we stayed 90% or better CIVIL. I've seen
less touchy subjects erupt into flames rather quickly.

Ah well. Have fun folks ...

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 23
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:16:08 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/99 10:57:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ereskanti@***.com writes:

<< > Whatever. It's not worth the trouble to argue the point.
>
> Sean
> GM Pax


Then why the HELL!?! Did you get assanine and put this in here??? >>

to let everyone know why he wasn't replying, without agreeing? :-)
(btw, sorry about the qouting style, I am on a guest computer atm)
Message no. 24
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:54:17 -0700 (PDT)
> I don't know. Racism, like it or not is a part of the game. And while
I disagree with it personally, I still think it has a place in SR. I
don't like bugs either, but I'm running in Bug City. Done right, it
could be interesting. For instance, like our avenging angel above, my
old character was a racist elf. He even went so far as to wear
swastikas and such. And no one liked him, but he didn't care. He was
superior.

Interesting doesn't make it necessary for the game. Like I said, I use
Humanis as much as the next guy, and my Humanis characters hate
metahumans just like anyone else's.

On the other hand, if I had a black player who was playing a black
character (or a white player playing a white character, or an asian
player playing an asian character and so and so forth) I wouldn't
expose his character to colour-based racism. IMO that just hits too
close to home. Yes, some people might find it interesting and be able
to roll with it. A lot of people probably wouldn't, though.

That's my point. Metahuman racism can be looked at more objectively,
because when a guy calls you a 'pointy-eared dandelion eater', it can
almost be funny from a players perspective. Racism based on ethnicity,
however, can be a lot more hurtful, which is why I don't think it has a
place in RPGs. It certainly doesn't have one in mine.

*Doc' shuts up about this now.*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 25
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:26:50 -0500
> > I don't know. Racism, like it or not is a part of the game. And while
> I disagree with it personally, I still think it has a place in SR. I
> don't like bugs either, but I'm running in Bug City. Done right, it
> could be interesting. For instance, like our avenging angel above, my
> old character was a racist elf. He even went so far as to wear
> swastikas and such. And no one liked him, but he didn't care. He was
> superior.
>
> Interesting doesn't make it necessary for the game. Like I said, I use
> Humanis as much as the next guy, and my Humanis characters hate
> metahumans just like anyone else's.
>
> On the other hand, if I had a black player who was playing a black
> character (or a white player playing a white character, or an asian
> player playing an asian character and so and so forth) I wouldn't
> expose his character to colour-based racism. IMO that just hits too
> close to home. Yes, some people might find it interesting and be able
> to roll with it. A lot of people probably wouldn't, though.
>
> That's my point. Metahuman racism can be looked at more objectively,
> because when a guy calls you a 'pointy-eared dandelion eater', it can
> almost be funny from a players perspective. Racism based on ethnicity,
> however, can be a lot more hurtful, which is why I don't think it has a
> place in RPGs. It certainly doesn't have one in mine.
>
I agree completely. Ethnicity should never enter into a gaming session,
especially if you play with a mixed group. However, even FASA is not immune
to the ethnic racism. CFS seemed to place a lot of hatred on the Japanese.
Sure, everyone's reason for hating them is a pretty good one (taking over A
major hub of the state and all) but still, a few of those comments bordered
on racism (and someone of that particular ethnicity might take more offense
than I). Not saying it's right, but it's there. . .
Message no. 26
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: [GRIDSEC] Political/Racism Threads
Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:50:08 -0700 (PDT)
> I agree completely. Ethnicity should never enter into a gaming
session, especially if you play with a mixed group. However, even FASA
is not immune to the ethnic racism. CFS seemed to place a lot of hatred
on the Japanese. Sure, everyone's reason for hating them is a pretty
good one (taking over A major hub of the state and all) but still, a
few of those comments bordered on racism (and someone of that
particular ethnicity might take more offense than I). Not saying it's
right, but it's there. . .
<Mark Fender I presume>

Yes, but IIRC, Mark, there was a note in the introduction to CFS where
they addressed that very issue. They mentioned that the book (which I
would have to say is one of my favourite place sourcebooks, oddly
enough) dealt with racism to an extent and that people should be aware
of that.

Why did they do that? Well, because if they didn't either they don't do
CFS, or they do it and it's completely unrealistic, because of what
people already knew of CFS. It's completely unbelievable that a large
portion of the people of Redding and northern CalFree would NOT hate
elves because of what Tir Tairngire did. It's completely unbelievable
that the residents of San Fran and many other Californians would not
hate the Japanese for their occupation. And we KNOW that in SR times,
the Japanese look down on metahumans as less than human.

Basically, CFS was a lose/lose situation. Either they don't do it, or
they drop racism out and it becomes unrealistic - or they do it and
they include racism. They went the latter, and, IMO, they did it pretty
well. Of course, I'm not a redneck elf-hater ( :) ) or Japanese, so I
wasn't picked on in the book.

*Doc' is doomed. Along with everything else, he's part Serbian *gasp!*
and part French. A part of him yearns to kill everyone around him who's
different and another part yearns to drop large bombs in the Pacific...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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