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Message no. 1
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 16:09:52 +0100
Hi...

Someone wrote it is possible to ground a spell through a locked spell.
Why? AFAIK there needs to be a physical component you can cast the spell
through, and that is not given with a locked spell... or is it?
Can anyone explain this to me? (Or did I just misread it?)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 2
From: Randy Szabadics <wistler@******.BLARG.NET>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 09:00:47 -0700
On Sat, 30 Sep 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Hi...
>
> Someone wrote it is possible to ground a spell through a locked spell.
> Why? AFAIK there needs to be a physical component you can cast the spell
> through, and that is not given with a locked spell... or is it?
> Can anyone explain this to me? (Or did I just misread it?)
>
> Sascha
> --
> +---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
> | / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
> | / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
> | \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
> |==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
> |LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
> +---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
> | Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
> | die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
> | deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
Sascha
Grounding a spell through a locked spell is entitley possible. You
brought up two ponits on the subject. Fisrt where is the physical
component. The physical component would be whatever the spell is locked
to. Locked spell have to be anchored in some way to work.
The main reason for being able to ground a spell through a locked spell is
because a spell lock has a constant conection to the astral plane similar
to those who are magicaly active.
Those are two reasons a spell can be grounded through a spell lock. At
least that's the way I understand it.


*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
# "Into the shadows he moved, # Randy Szabadics(aka.Wistler) #
* vanising into the darkness * e-mail: wistler@*****.net *
# to survive." # Randy's Web Creation: #
* Me 95' * http://www.blarg.net/~wistler *
#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
Newton's Little-Known Seventh Law:
A bird in the hand is safer than one overhead! ;)
Message no. 3
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 17:28:17 +0100
Randy Szabadics wrote:
> Grounding a spell through a locked spell is entitley possible. You
> brought up two ponits on the subject. Fisrt where is the physical
> component. The physical component would be whatever the spell is locked
> to. Locked spell have to be anchored in some way to work.

Hm, maybe I did not make my point clear enough. I did _not_ refer to spell
locks as per SRII p. 138, but to _locked_ spells as per Grimpoire, p. 44, which
are actually "quickenened" spells as I have just detected. And even if you
have to quicken a spell to something, there is no "real" connection between
spell and target.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 4
From: Randy Szabadics <wistler@******.BLARG.NET>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 09:42:54 -0700
On Sat, 30 Sep 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Randy Szabadics wrote:
> > Grounding a spell through a locked spell is entitley possible. You
> > brought up two ponits on the subject. Fisrt where is the physical
> > component. The physical component would be whatever the spell is locked
> > to. Locked spell have to be anchored in some way to work.
>
> Hm, maybe I did not make my point clear enough. I did _not_ refer to spell
> locks as per SRII p. 138, but to _locked_ spells as per Grimpoire, p. 44, which
> are actually "quickenened" spells as I have just detected. And even if you
> have to quicken a spell to something, there is no "real" connection between
> spell and target.
>
> Sascha
>
Sorry. I'm not too schooled on quickened spells. I haven't read all of
the Grim. I'll see what My Gm has to say.

*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
# "Into the shadows he moved, # Randy Szabadics(aka.Wistler) #
* vanising into the darkness * e-mail: wistler@*****.net *
# to survive." # Randy's Web Creation: #
* Me 95' * http://www.blarg.net/~wistler *
#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
Newton's Little-Known Seventh Law:
A bird in the hand is safer than one overhead! ;)
Message no. 5
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 14:42:48 -0400
Sascha Pabst writes:

>Hm, maybe I did not make my point clear enough. I did _not_ refer to spell
>locks as per SRII p. 138, but to _locked_ spells as per Grimpoire, p. 44, which
>are actually "quickenened" spells as I have just detected. And even if you
>have to quicken a spell to something, there is no "real" connection between
>spell and target.

IMI, (In My Interpretation) quickening a spell is fundamentally the same as
locking it to the spell's target instead of a focus. So, when you ground
through a quickened spell, you are actually grounding through the target of
the spell (just like grounding through dual-natured beasties or, lately,
street sams.) >8-> The spell itself, augmented by the magician's Initiated
power, is the "real" connection between astral space and target.

Then again, I don't have the Grimthingy handy on me right now, so there's a
very good chance I'm interpreting things just plain wrong. Someone correct
me if this is the case.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "Remember, Exploding Boy, you
Please don't blame anyone else. | can use your power only ONCE!"
Message no. 6
From: Jason D Cannata <Jbone001@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:10:21 -0400
A few weeks back we had this disscussion on AOL. Some of FASA's main guns
hang out and answer questions. They said that you cannot target a spell with
a spell.
The reason you ground through spelllocks is the fact that there is a physical
focus in the real world. With quickened spells there is no physical focus.

Hope this helps


Bitbyter
Message no. 7
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:55:32 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
>>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:

SP> Someone wrote it is possible to ground a spell through a locked spell.
SP> Why?

You can ground through anything that has both a physical and an astral
presence (ie, is dual natured). Locked and sustained spells (actually,
the lock or the mage sustaining the spell) are dual natured, therefore
you can ground through them. BTW, this *does* include quickenings.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ head.
Message no. 8
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 17:49:02 +0100
Rat wrote:
> You can ground through anything that has both a physical and an astral
> presence (ie, is dual natured). Locked and sustained spells (actually,
> the lock or the mage sustaining the spell) are dual natured, therefore
> you can ground through them. BTW, this *does* include quickenings.
Why? A quickened spell is a "loop" in astral space, sustaining itself.
I agree with sustained spells/magician, spell locks and foci, but can't
see the sense with quickened spells.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 9
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 20:03:43 -0400
On Sun, 1 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Why? A quickened spell is a "loop" in astral space, sustaining itself.
> I agree with sustained spells/magician, spell locks and foci, but can't
> see the sense with quickened spells.

Look at it this way. The spell has to be quickened _on_ something.
Thus, the 'loop' as described in the Grimoire is a loop between the
target and the spell's power source in astral space. This connection
provides a link between the astral and the physical that can be used
to ground through.

--Craig
Message no. 10
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:51:22 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
>>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:

SP> Why? A quickened spell is a "loop" in astral space, sustaining
SP> itself.

If this were true then the spell would have no effect on the mage who
cast it. However, this is not the case.

Any sustained spell, regardless of *how* it is sustained, creates a
conduit for magical energies between astral space and the physical
world. It is through this conduit that another spell may ground through.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ of skin.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 11
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:23:57 GMT
Jason D Cannata writes

> A few weeks back we had this disscussion on AOL. Some of FASA's main guns
> hang out and answer questions. They said that you cannot target a spell with
> a spell.
> The reason you ground through spelllocks is the fact that there is a physical
> focus in the real world. With quickened spells there is no physical focus.
>
but the exact reason you are allowed to spend up to twice as much
karma on quickening as the spells force is exactly to raise the
target number for grounding things through it. It is, assuming you
have karma to burn possible to pour enough into a big spell that
despite the fact anyone can see it they need 18's or more on the
'ground out' roll. Note this is a 'entirely' separate force success
test (not using dice from fetishes and exclusivity as they only
affect the actual target) against the focus requiring net success to
ground out [yes that does mean yet another split of magic pool. Most
of the time this roll is ignored as foks sensibly choose spell locks
and at force 1 any spell that will hurt the mage underneath is so
likely to ground its not worth the dice rolling to find out if the
obvious happens.

> Hope this helps
>
>
> Bitbyter
>
Mark
Message no. 12
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:11:54 +0100
Sascha Pabst said:
> Someone wrote it is possible to ground a spell through a locked spell.
> Why? AFAIK there needs to be a physical component you can cast the spell
> through, and that is not given with a locked spell... or is it?
> Can anyone explain this to me? (Or did I just misread it?)

Well, you can ground through anything but a sustained spell. That includes
locked and quickened spells. Physical components have nothing to do with it,
such a permanent gate to the astral is enough to channel the energies of a
spell. There is however a restriction on the kind of s|ell you can blast
such an astral gate with, it has to be a physical combat spell.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 13
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:25:42 +0100
> Randy Szabadics wrote:
> > Grounding a spell through a locked spell is entitley possible. You
> > brought up two ponits on the subject. Fisrt where is the physical
> > component. The physical component would be whatever the spell is locked
> > to. Locked spell have to be anchored in some way to work.
>
> Hm, maybe I did not make my point clear enough. I did _not_ refer to spell
>locks as per SRII p. 138, but to _locked_ spells as per Grimpoire, p. 44, which
> are actually "quickenened" spells as I have just detected. And even if you
> have to quicken a spell to something, there is no "real" connection between
> spell and target.

Ah, the good ol' thread, it was about time :) Anyway you'll see that there
are many different views on this subject and that there is very litle evidence
supporting either view other than a statement by the Ex-DLoH saying that
you can ground through quickenings.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 14
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:12:32 -0400
On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> Well, you can ground through anything but a sustained spell. That includes
> locked and quickened spells. Physical components have nothing to do with it,

For the third time, you can ground through sustained spells, too!

> spell. There is however a restriction on the kind of s|ell you can blast
> such an astral gate with, it has to be a physical combat spell.

Not true. The spell you are grounding _through_ has to be physical; but
I think you can ground both physical or mana spells through the link.

--Craig
Message no. 15
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:37:22 MET
>Craig:
>Not true. The spell you are grounding _through_ has to be physical; but
>I think you can ground both physical or mana spells through the link.

Cobra:
Spells or foci by which you ground your spells need not be physical but
the grounding spell (the one you cast) must be physical AND must be an
area spell.
The physical aspect is needed to affect the material world while the area
component is needed for the spell not to only affect the target in astral
space but the magician carrying it too (and people around him).
Message no. 16
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:59:37 -0400
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>>>>> "GW" == Gallas William <gallas@**.ec-lyon.fr> writes:

GW> Spells or foci by which you ground your spells need not be physical
GW> but the grounding spell (the one you cast) must be physical AND must
GW> be an area spell.

See my previous comments. It only needs AoE elemental effects to tag
anyone in the viscinity of the focus. A single-target spell like
powerbolt will do just nicely, thankyouverymuch.

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--
Rat <ratinox@**s.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ of skin.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 17
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:55:38 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "CSD" == Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
writes:

>> Well, you can ground through anything but a sustained spell. That
>> includes locked and quickened spells. Physical components have
>> nothing to do with it,
CSD> For the third time, you can ground through sustained spells, too!

You can ground through anything that has both a physical and astral
presence. This includes, but is not limited to, dual-natured entities
(including astrally perceiving mages) active foci, and sustained spells
- -- regardless of how the spell is sustained, and that includes locks and
quickenings -- that have some kind of effect tangible in the physical
world. You cannot attack or ground through a spell that is not being
sustained.

Yes, the mage casting a Treat or Heal has to sustain it for a brief
period for it to take, and during that time he most certainly is
vulnerable to astral attack.

>> spell. There is however a restriction on the kind of s|ell you can
>> blast such an astral gate with, it has to be a physical combat spell.
CSD> Not true. The spell you are grounding _through_ has to be physical;
CSD> but I think you can ground both physical or mana spells through the
CSD> link.

You can attack a focus with any spell you care (ever do it with
Makeover? I have :). But to ground out the spell must be a physical
spell to damage whatever is in contact with the focus, and it must have
elemental effects to affect anyone in the viscinity because you cannot
synchronize your aura in astral space with targets in the physical
world.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 18
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:18:59 -0700
>>>>> "GW" == Gallas William <gallas@**.ec-lyon.fr> writes:

GW> Spells or foci by which you ground your spells need not be
GW> physical but the grounding spell (the one you cast) must be
GW> physical AND must be an area spell.
>S.S. Rat:
>See my previous comments. It only needs AoE elemental effects to
>tag anyone in the viscinity of the focus. A single-target spell
>like powerbolt will do just nicely, thankyouverymuch.

Yep...
(if you play that you can cast through a sustained spell
otherwise disreguard the spell part = quick/foci/anchor)
It has to be a physical spell that is cast through spell/foci
to ground out. It must overcome that focus/spell/quick/anchor,
which then destroys the bond and any left over power of the
cast (physical) spell is then released.

A personal spell (i.e. powerbolt/firemissle/etc...) will
then roll over to the mage/person with the foci/spell/quick/anchor.

An area of effect spell will:
... if the casting mage can see the area that the physical body
is located... then anyone that he can see can also be affected
by the remaining power of the spell.

... if the casting mage can't see the area that the mage's physical
body is located then... only the mage will be affected by the spell
*although any elemental effects will also occur in the area*
please check secondary effects in the grimoure.
since no one else will be taking damage from the spell
very little will truely be affected by the secondary effect.

Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 19
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 23:53:35 +0100
Craig wrote:
> Look at it this way. The spell has to be quickened _on_ something.
> Thus, the 'loop' as described in the Grimoire is a loop between the
> target and the spell's power source in astral space. This connection
> provides a link between the astral and the physical that can be used
> to ground through.
But then the magician who cast the spell would be hit, or not? Following
the same rules as sustained spells... Hm... and why should anyone spend
Karma for this?
What should be the advantage of quickened spells compared to spell locks?
Both need to be masked (of course), but then... where is the plus???

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 20
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 01:39:59 +0100
Jani Fikouras wrote:
> Well, you can ground through anything but a sustained spell. That includes
> locked and quickened spells. Physical components have nothing to do with it,
> such a permanent gate to the astral is enough to channel the energies of a
> spell. There is however a restriction on the kind of s|ell you can blast
> such an astral gate with, it has to be a physical combat spell.
SRII, p. 139: "A focus, by virtue of its nature, creates a pathway between
the two realms. Through this channel, an astrally present magician can cast
a spell a the focus' PHYSICAL COMPONENT. Because the spell is affecting the
PHYSICAL MATERIALS of the focus, the spell must be a physical type." (Caps
Lock added by me :-). And I think Spell Locks are like Foci for this
matter. But where is the PHYSICAL component of a quickened spell??????

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 21
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 01:48:38 +0100
Craig wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:
> > Well, you can ground through anything but a sustained spell. That includes
> > locked and quickened spells. Physical components have nothing to do with it,
>
> For the third time, you can ground through sustained spells, too!
Yup... but into the casting magician... I think...
>
> > spell. There is however a restriction on the kind of s|ell you can blast
> > such an astral gate with, it has to be a physical combat spell.
>
> Not true. The spell you are grounding _through_ has to be physical; but
> I think you can ground both physical or mana spells through the link.
Grimythingy, p. 44: "The spell is given a permanent 'circuit' into ASTRAL
SPACE that keeps it running..." (FASA doesn't use Caps Lock in its books, so
guess who added it :-)
That's to be beaten, Craig...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 22
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:31:56 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
>>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:

SP> Grimythingy, p. 44: "The spell is given a permanent 'circuit' into

The operative word here is "into".

Into, as in "from the physical world INTO astral space".

Any other interpretation makes no sense gramatically.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 23
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:00:44 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

> What should be the advantage of quickened spells compared to spell locks?
> Both need to be masked (of course), but then... where is the plus???
>
The target number to ground through quickening is the karma spent on
the quickening says so in the Grimoire, p44-45

> Sascha
Mark
Message no. 24
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:06:53 GMT
Craig S Dohmen writes
>
> Not true. The spell you are grounding _through_ has to be physical; but
> I think you can ground both physical or mana spells through the link.
>
All that matters about something for grounding through is 'does it
link / bridge the astral and physical planes actively' if yes you can
ground through it unless the DLOH said otherwise.

What can you ground.
Damaging manipulations cannot be grounded, see main rulebook. All
other spells technically can be, but only physical spells will
'spread' in the physical plane afterwards, eg a grounding sleep spell
works but only attacks the person (etc) the limk was attached to
[hence dropping sleep through anchoring is a waste of time],
fireballs however work just fine! There is some question as to if you
use the casters or the locks physical location as the LOS for what a
grounding spell can hit, FASA really don't answer this one, the rules
suggest the former while the literature describes bodies exploding
and injuring team mates by them despite the spell hit the mages
astral form projected and well out of sight.

> --Craig
>

Hope that helps

Mark
Message no. 25
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:30:26 +0100
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
> >>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:
> SP> Grimythingy, p. 44: "The spell is given a permanent 'circuit' into

> The operative word here is "into".
> Into, as in "from the physical world INTO astral space".
Into, as in "from the casting magician INTO astral space"...

> Any other interpretation makes no sense gramatically.
Gotta admit I am not too sure about gramatics...
But if it really builds a "gate" between astral space and physical
world: Who would be hit? The casting magician? The "victim" of the spell?
Then I will run around, preparing rats and the like as "living bombs".
"incr. Quickness +1" ([F/2]+1)L drain, send rat (or, even better, small
dog) toward guardhouse, fuse whatever-you-like... BOOM

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 26
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:25:17 +0100
S.F. Eley wrote:
>
> Sascha Pabst writes:
>
> >Hm, maybe I did not make my point clear enough. I did _not_ refer to spell
> >locks as per SRII p. 138, but to _locked_ spells as per Grimpoire, p. 44, which
> >are actually "quickenened" spells as I have just detected. And even if
you
> >have to quicken a spell to something, there is no "real" connection
between
> >spell and target.
>
> IMI, (In My Interpretation) quickening a spell is fundamentally the same as
> locking it to the spell's target instead of a focus. So, when you ground
> through a quickened spell, you are actually grounding through the target of
> the spell (just like grounding through dual-natured beasties or, lately,
> street sams.) >8-> The spell itself, augmented by the magician's Initiated
> power, is the "real" connection between astral space and target.
>
> Then again, I don't have the Grimthingy handy on me right now, so there's a
> very good chance I'm interpreting things just plain wrong. Someone correct
> me if this is the case.

Ok, this question was put to the Ex-DLoH and this is what he said:


> 3. Ask him whether or not you can ground through Quickening, and get a
> damn good rationalisation that works within the magic theory.

You can ground through ANY spell that has an effect on the real world, be
it mana or physical.



--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 27
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:51:46 +0100
Jason D Cannata wrote:
>
> A few weeks back we had this disscussion on AOL. Some of FASA's main guns
> hang out and answer questions. They said that you cannot target a spell with
> a spell.
> The reason you ground through spelllocks is the fact that there is a physical
> focus in the real world. With quickened spells there is no physical focus.

Ahh you canot target a *moving* spell with another spell, that means that
if you are projecting you canot hit an incoming spell with a spell of your own.
But stationary spells like quickened and anchored spells are a totaly different
thing.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 28
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:55:31 +0100
Sascha Pabst wrote:
>
> Craig wrote:
> > Look at it this way. The spell has to be quickened _on_ something.
> > Thus, the 'loop' as described in the Grimoire is a loop between the
> > target and the spell's power source in astral space. This connection
> > provides a link between the astral and the physical that can be used
> > to ground through.
> But then the magician who cast the spell would be hit, or not? Following
> the same rules as sustained spells... Hm... and why should anyone spend
> Karma for this?
> What should be the advantage of quickened spells compared to spell locks?
> Both need to be masked (of course), but then... where is the plus???

You can actaully fortify quickened spells by spening more karma. This way
you cab have a practically impregnable quickening. Whereas locks will always
have a force of 1.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 29
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:53:00 PDT
>Lock added by me :-). And I think Spell Locks are like Foci for this
>matter. But where is the PHYSICAL component of a quickened spell??????

you're it chummer!



Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 30
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:00:07 +0100
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:00:03 +0100 (MET)

> > Well, you can ground through anything but a sustained spell. That includes
> > locked and quickened spells. Physical components have nothing to do with it

> For the third time, you can ground through sustained spells, too!

Sorry - I don't buy that. I don't even buy that you can ground through
Quickened spells - I have never read that in the Grimthingy... you
would absolutely kill the use of sustaining spells in dangerous areas
instead of carrying spell locks around and of quickening spells
instead of building yourself a Multi-Lock.

> > spell. There is however a restriction on the kind of s|ell you can blast
> > such an astral gate with, it has to be a physical combat spell.

> Not true. The spell you are grounding _through_ has to be physical; but
> I think you can ground both physical or mana spells through the link.

This is definitely wrong. The grounded spell can even be a mana -
version, but it only affects the target the bridge (read: Focus) is
attached to.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 31
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:45:35 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
>>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:

>> Into, as in "from the physical world INTO astral space".
SP> Into, as in "from the casting magician INTO astral space"...

"casting magician" is a valid subset of "physical world", because you
can't quicken a spell in astral space.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ head.
Message no. 32
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 19:39:37 MET
In astral, you can:
1.Hit a spell. This can be done with any spell.
2.Hit the bond of a focus. This can be done with any spell.
3.Hit the focus itself and the wearer. This can be done by sending a physical
combat spell on the bond of the focus.
Why: Because only a combat spell does take effect in the victim (see differences
between combat and manipulation spells).
4. Hit the wearer of the focus and people around. This can be done by sending
an area physical combat spell.

Spellcasting doesn't create a link between astral and material world (see
SRII rules. Casting a spell through a focus).
So, a quickened spell can be attacked in astral but CAN'T be used for grounding
a spell.
This is due to the fact that a quickened spell is a spell sustained by itself.
It has no material reality (except effect on the caster, which is not
sufficient).
But you can ground a spell via an anchored spell because there is a material
link between astral and physical world.
Note: You can ground a spell via a mage in astral perception.:)

Cobra.
Message no. 33
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 21:56:35 +0100
Ricky wrote:
> >Lock added by me :-). And I think Spell Locks are like Foci for this
> >matter. But where is the PHYSICAL component of a quickened spell??????
> you're it chummer!
*cough* *cough* aehem...
SRII p. 139: "A spell cannot normally be cast from astral to mundane
space, or vice versa. These two different realms are seperates by an
interface that can only be crossed und specific circumstances and
criteria. Spellcasting is NOT one of them. [...]
A focus, by virtue of its nature, creates a pathway between the two
realms. Through this channel, an astrally present magician can cast
a spell at the focus' physical component. Because the spell is
affecting the the physical materials of the focus, the spell MUST
BE A PHYSICAL type."
Well, quickened SPELLS are spells, after all, aren't they? So the above
rule should ground here (*grin*) IMHO...
The second paragraph is for the discussion which spells may be grounded,
not if they may be grounded through quickened spells...

Oh, and by the way: Anything in ALL CAPITAL is just highlighted by me,
not by FASA.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 34
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:07:40 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GW" == Gallas William <gallas@**.ec-lyon.fr> writes:

GW> In astral, you can:
GW> 1.Hit a spell. This can be done with any spell.

No: you cannot attack an instantaneous spell, only a sustained spell.
Instantaneous spells aren't around long enough to attack.

GW> 2.Hit the bond of a focus. This can be done with any spell.

No: you attack the active focus's astral form; due the sympathetic
nature of astral space what affects the astral body also affects the
physical body. Therefore, when you attack the astral form you attack the
physical form as well. An inactive focus has no astral presence.

GW> 3.Hit the focus itself and the wearer. This can be done by sending a
GW> physical combat spell on the bond of the focus.

See previous for clarification.

GW> Why: Because only a combat spell does take effect in the victim (see
GW> differences between combat and manipulation spells).

No, because combat spells are the only spells that do damage directly to
the target.

GW> 4. Hit the wearer of the focus and people around. This can be done
GW> by sending an area physical combat spell.

Clarification: the elemental effects are the primary means of this
occouring.

GW> Spellcasting doesn't create a link between astral and material world
GW> (see SRII rules. Casting a spell through a focus).

More correctly, because you can't synchronize auras between the two
worlds you cannot cast spells from one to the other.

GW> So, a quickened spell can be attacked in astral but CAN'T be used
GW> for grounding a spell.

This does not follow your line of reasoning.

GW> This is due to the fact that a quickened spell is a spell sustained
GW> by itself. It has no material reality (except effect on the caster,
GW> which is not sufficient).

It has a material *effect*. And that is the physical form the grounding
occours through.

GW> But you can ground a spell via an anchored spell because there is a
GW> material link between astral and physical world.

You are misusing the term "material link". Material links are used in
ritual sorcery and are something completely different from dual-natured
entities.

GW> Note: You can ground a spell via a mage in astral perception.:)

You can ground a spell through *any* dual-natured entity. A dual-natured
entity is one that has both a physical and an astral presence. An
astrally perceiving mage or critter is a dual-natured entity. A mage
sustaining a spell is a dual-natured entity courtesy of the energy
conduit required to maintain the spell. An active focus is a
dual-natured entity. A mage with a quickened spell is a dual-natured
entity due to the nature of the sustained spell.

More precicely, *any* actively maintained spell in the physical world
requires a conduit between astral space and the physical world; if this
conduit does not exist the spell cannot exist for it has no power. This
conduit meets the requirements for being defined as a dual-natured
entity: it has both an astral and a physical presence. Therefore it can
be grounded through. Since quickenings are sustained spells, they may be
grounded through.
.
. . QED

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--
Rat <ratinox@**s.neu.edu> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 35
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 18:03:07 -0400
On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> Sorry - I don't buy that. I don't even buy that you can ground through
> Quickened spells - I have never read that in the Grimthingy... you
> would absolutely kill the use of sustaining spells in dangerous areas
> instead of carrying spell locks around and of quickening spells
> instead of building yourself a Multi-Lock.

Not really. The target number to ground is higher with sustained or
quickened spells. Spell locks only require a lousy 2.

--Craig
Message no. 36
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 18:05:00 PDT
[snip]

> Ahh you canot target a *moving* spell with another spell, that means that
>if you are projecting you canot hit an incoming spell with a spell of your
>own.
>But stationary spells like quickened and anchored spells are a totaly
>different
>thing.

no but you can dispell it.

has anyone actually used dispelling?

Can you dispel a quickened spell?

new can-o-worms



Ricky
"It's not a question of being paranoid, the question
is are you paranoid enough"
-strange days
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 37
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 18:08:10 -0400
On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> *cough* *cough* aehem...
> SRII p. 139: "A spell cannot normally be cast from astral to mundane
> space, or vice versa. These two different realms are seperates by an
> interface that can only be crossed und specific circumstances and
> criteria. Spellcasting is NOT one of them. [...]

Correct. All this means is that the magician cannot be hit from
astral space *at the moment she casts the spell*. With sustained
and quickened spells, this is irrelevant. The spell has already
been cast.

--Craig
Message no. 38
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 18:13:13 -0400
On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> > Thus, the 'loop' as described in the Grimoire is a loop between the
> > target and the spell's power source in astral space. This connection
> > provides a link between the astral and the physical that can be used
> > to ground through.
> But then the magician who cast the spell would be hit, or not? Following

No. The object the spell is quickened/sustained on would be hit.
In other words, if I quicken Invisibility on my pet rat Bill, and
someone grounds through the quickening, it hits Bill, not me.

> the same rules as sustained spells... Hm... and why should anyone spend
> Karma for this?

Raises the target number. You only need a 2 to beat a spell lock.

> What should be the advantage of quickened spells compared to spell locks?
> Both need to be masked (of course), but then... where is the plus???

See above.

--Craig
Message no. 39
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 18:14:39 -0400
On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, St. Jean, Ricky wrote:

> has anyone actually used dispelling?

Not me.

> Can you dispel a quickened spell?

Yes.

--Craig
Message no. 40
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:39:02 +0930
Georg Greve wrote:
> Quickened spells - I have never read that in the Grimthingy... you
> would absolutely kill the use of sustaining spells in dangerous areas
> instead of carrying spell locks around and of quickening spells
> instead of building yourself a Multi-Lock.

The worst thing that can happen is that the sustained spell can be
destroyed. The grounding effect can't happen 'cause the magician drops the
spell when it is destroyed before the spell energies hit him/her. This
doesn't happen when the spell is locked or quickened.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 41
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:54:27 +0930
St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
>
> >Lock added by me :-). And I think Spell Locks are like Foci for this
> >matter. But where is the PHYSICAL component of a quickened spell??????
>
> you're it chummer!

Kerrection... the TARGET is it.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 42
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:55:59 +0930
Craig S Dohmen wrote:
>
> Not really. The target number to ground is higher with sustained or
> quickened spells. Spell locks only require a lousy 2.

Actually, it's a lousy 1... might be important if you've got mods for some
reason.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 43
From: The Kumquat <LAYBROWNJT@***.CUIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 19:57:13 -0500
Time to add my $0.02 into the hat.... In response to Stainless Steel Rat's
Comment that only sustained spells can be attacked in astral space 'cause
instantaneous spells aren't around long enough: This is not exactly true.
According to either the SRII book or the Grimoire II, any spell can be
attacked, providing that the astral attacker is present in astral space AND has
DELAYED HIS ACTION. This will allow the person to react at the precise moment
the spell hits astral space, BEFORE entering the world of the physical.

In response to Sascha's questions/comments regarding grounding through
quickenings: According to Tom Dowd, ex-DLoH, and official rules guru, you CAN
ground through quickened spells. Here's the rationalization. The astral
"conduit" forming the loop sustaining the spell is linked to the caster as if
HE were a spell lock. Therefore, the "physical component" in the grounding is
the spellcaster himself. Mages MUST be physical, as well as astral entities, so
their physical form can be grounded into.

I'll write more on the topic later....

Just My Two Pence.
The Kumquat.
Message no. 44
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 23:55:59 +0100
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 23:55:56 +0100 (MET)

> Note: You can ground a spell via a mage in astral perception.:)

I would like to hear how this is handled - does a physical area-effect
spell just ground through him or does he have some kind of resistance
???

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 45
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 16:46:42 +0930
Georg Greve wrote:
>
> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 23:55:56 +0100 (MET)
>
> > Note: You can ground a spell via a mage in astral perception.:)
>
> I would like to hear how this is handled - does a physical area-effect
> spell just ground through him or does he have some kind of resistance

I can't recall exactly how, but I think if the spell gets successes, then
it grounds though. This is after spell defense, and the mage's own body
resistance test, I think.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 46
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:15:22 +0100
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:15:19 +0100 (MET)

> GW> In astral, you can:
> GW> 1.Hit a spell. This can be done with any spell.

> No: you cannot attack an instantaneous spell, only a sustained spell.
> Instantaneous spells aren't around long enough to attack.

Wait a second - you cannot hit a spell with a spell, that's in the
main sourcebook somewhere !!

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 47
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:20:28 EDT
Ricky St. Jean:
>has anyone actually used dispelling?

well, er... no.

Who ever gets high enough Initiate level to cancel out that typical level 6
spell? OK, actually I did it to a PC once because I noticed that his
Inc. Reflexes spell was only force 2. :)

U-Gene << Decided that if Havoc reaches Initiate level 6, he would no >>
<< longer worry about enemy magic. [knocks on wood] >>
Message no. 48
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:33:28 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GG" == Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes:

>> Note: You can ground a spell via a mage in astral perception.:)
GG> I would like to hear how this is handled - does a physical area-effect
GG> spell just ground through him or does he have some kind of resistance
GG> ???

He resists just as if he were a normal target of the spell, using spell
defense or shielding dice and then willpower or body or whatever is
appropriate.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ returned to its special container and
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Message no. 49
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:35:10 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GG" == Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes:

>> No: you cannot attack an instantaneous spell, only a sustained spell.
>> Instantaneous spells aren't around long enough to attack.
GG> Wait a second - you cannot hit a spell with a spell, that's in the
GG> main sourcebook somewhere !!

When attacking a sustained spell you are not, technically, attacking the
spell itself. You are attacking the conduit between astral space and the
physical world. The two are so closely tied together that they can be
treated as a single thing. The sympathetic nature of magic takes care of
the rest.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
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Message no. 50
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:28:39 +0100
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:28:36 +0100 (MET)

> No: you cannot attack an instantaneous spell, only a sustained spell.
> Instantaneous spells aren't around long enough to attack.

This is wrong, by the way. If you have delayed your action waiting for
a spell being cast you can intercept EVERY spell.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 51
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:56:24 +0100
Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "GW" == Gallas William <gallas@**.ec-lyon.fr>
writes:
> GW> Spellcasting doesn't create a link between astral and material world
> GW> (see SRII rules. Casting a spell through a focus).
>
> More correctly, because you can't synchronize auras between the two
interface that can only be crossed und specific circumstances and
criteria. Spellcasting is NOT one of them."
And physical EFFECT may by your definition a way to ground the spell
through, but until you show me a rule on that, I doubt it...

> GW> But you can ground a spell via an anchored spell because there is a
> GW> material link between astral and physical world.

> You are misusing the term "material link". Material links are used in
> ritual sorcery and are something completely different from dual-natured
> entities.

!s/material/physical/n

> GW> Note: You can ground a spell via a mage in astral perception.:)
>
> You can ground a spell through *any* dual-natured entity. A dual-natured
> entity is one that has both a physical and an astral presence. An
> astrally perceiving mage or critter is a dual-natured entity. A mage
> sustaining a spell is a dual-natured entity courtesy of the energy
> conduit required to maintain the spell. An active focus is a
> dual-natured entity.
Agreed.

> A mage with a quickened spell is a dual-natured
> entity due to the nature of the sustained spell.
WHICH nature??? Where do you take that from? The only thing that has been
said here is the DLOH-ruling, and I still miss to see the logic behind
it (for definition of logic see T. Pratchett's "Soul Music").

> More precicely, *any* actively maintained spell in the physical world
> requires a conduit between astral space and the physical world; if this
> conduit does not exist the spell cannot exist for it has no power. This
> conduit meets the requirements for being defined as a dual-natured
> entity: it has both an astral and a physical presence. Therefore it can
> be grounded through. Since quickenings are sustained spells, they may be
> grounded through.
See SRII p. 139 (or quoted rule above)!!!

> . . QED
Nope... :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 52
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:59:27 +0100
Craig wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:
[snip]
> > you
> > would absolutely kill the use of sustaining spells in dangerous areas
> > instead of carrying spell locks around and of quickening spells
> > instead of building yourself a Multi-Lock.
> Not really. The target number to ground is higher with sustained or
> quickened spells. Spell locks only require a lousy 2.
And any quickened spell with a TN > 2 require _lots_ of Karma which no
magician can spend easily.... :-(

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 53
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 19:03:06 +0100
Craig wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:
> > SRII p. 139: [rule snipped]

> Correct. All this means is that the magician cannot be hit from
> astral space *at the moment she casts the spell*. With sustained
> and quickened spells, this is irrelevant. The spell has already
> been cast.
Ok. So this means you can't be hit at all... or what? A M. that casts a
quickened spell must perceive astrally... and after that we talk about a
spell. AND SPELLS ARE NO MEDIUM TO GROUND OTHER SPELLS THROUGH!
(Sorry for the yelling... )

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 54
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 14:13:39 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
>>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:

>> More precicely, *any* actively maintained spell in the physical world
>> requires a conduit between astral space and the physical world; if this
>> conduit does not exist the spell cannot exist for it has no power. This
>> conduit meets the requirements for being defined as a dual-natured
>> entity: it has both an astral and a physical presence. Therefore it can
>> be grounded through. Since quickenings are sustained spells, they may be
>> grounded through.

SP> See SRII p. 139 (or quoted rule above)!!!

Do you deny that quickened spells must have a conduit bewteen astral
space and the physical world? If so, please explain how a quickened
spell can sustain itself without any magical energy. I don't expect that
you can so I'll just continue.

Premise: such a conduit exists for a quickened spell.
Premise: such a conduit carries magical energies from the astral plane
to the physical plane.
Premise: grounding a spell is nothing more than forcing magical energies
of a destructive nature from the astral plane to the physical
plane. The only difference between this and the previous
premise is that in the former case the magical energies are not
of a destructive nature.

Now, please explain to me why a conduit for magical energies can't be
used as a conduit for magical energies, and I'll belive you when you say
you can't ground through a quickening. And while you're at it you can
try to explain to me how I can posess "tea" and "no tea"
simultaneously.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ returned to its special container and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 55
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:43:31 +0100
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:43:28 +0100 (MET)

> When attacking a sustained spell you are not, technically, attacking the
> spell itself. You are attacking the conduit between astral space and the
> physical world. The two are so closely tied together that they can be
> treated as a single thing. The sympathetic nature of magic takes care of
> the rest.

This is ridiculous. The spell duration doesn't make any difference to
the main rule : "You cannot attack a spell with a spell". This implies
that you cannot ground through quickened or sustained spells (which is
how it should be treated according to the rules - you may (of course)
change this rule or create a new one, but if you claim to play the
"book-rules" you cannot ground through quickened and sustained spells
- someone already quoted the sourcebook on this one) - only foci,
anchored spells and dual-natured/manifest beings are valid targets for
grounding through. If you try to ground a spell through
something/someone you are using it/him as the link - not the spell
itself which cannot be subject to other spells (just imagine: spell vs
spell vs spell vs spell vs spell ...).

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 56
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:45:18 +0100
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:45:15 +0100 (MET)

> He resists just as if he were a normal target of the spell, using spell
> defense or shielding dice and then willpower or body or whatever is
> appropriate.

Nice. Unfortunately the question was: How do you judge whether the
spell grounds through the mage/shaman ?

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 57
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 19:36:58 +0100
The Kumquat wrote:
[BIG snip]
> I'll write more on the topic later....
I am looking forward to that... there are too many "it is so because it is"
lately. The only answers covered by any Rulebook are against quickened spells
as grounding targets...

Sascha
Message no. 58
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 14:45:02 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GG" == Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes:

GG> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:43:28 +0100 (MET)
>> When attacking a sustained spell you are not, technically, attacking the
>> spell itself. You are attacking the conduit between astral space and the
>> physical world. The two are so closely tied together that they can be
>> treated as a single thing. The sympathetic nature of magic takes care of
>> the rest.

GG> This is ridiculous. The spell duration doesn't make any difference to
GG> the main rule : "You cannot attack a spell with a spell". This implies
GG> that you cannot ground through quickened or sustained spells (which is
GG> how it should be treated according to the rules

"When attacking a sustained spell you are not, technically, attacking
the spell itself. You are attacking the conduit between astral space and
the physical world." This is the conduit of magical energies that
sustains the spell. See the posting I recently made to a similar claim
by Sasha.

An instantaneous spell creates a similar conduit; but it's only there
for the briefest instant, not long enough to attack. You can intercept
the spell by being at the right place at the right time (the astral path
between the casting mage and the target, the conduit created between the
synchronized auras) and disrupting that, but the timing on that is
really hairy.

GG> only foci, anchored spells and dual-natured/manifest beings are
GG> valid targets for grounding through.

Mages sustaining spells are dual-natured entities, due to the energy
conduit that they create to sustain or quicken those spells.

GG> If you try to ground a spell through something/someone you are using
GG> it/him as the link - not the spell itself which cannot be subject to
GG> other spells (just imagine: spell vs spell vs spell vs spell vs
GG> spell ...).

As I said, you are not, technically, attacking the spell itself, but the
energy conduit that keeps the spell in existance. Spell maintains the
conduit, conduit maintains the spell; the two are inextricably linked.
It just so happens that the other end of the conduit happens to be the
mage sustaining the spell, and that's where the energy grounds out. It
sucks being at ground zero, don't it?

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Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
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Message no. 59
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 14:46:15 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GG" == Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes:

GG> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:45:15 +0100 (MET)
>> He resists just as if he were a normal target of the spell, using spell
>> defense or shielding dice and then willpower or body or whatever is
>> appropriate.

GG> Nice. Unfortunately the question was: How do you judge whether the
GG> spell grounds through the mage/shaman ?

No, it was't. But the answer to this new question is, once the spell is
resisted, if it has any Force left, it grounds out with that Force. The
Grimoire is quite clear on that.

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Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
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Message no. 60
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.GOV>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 14:44:41 -0400
>>>>>>>Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>

Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:45:15 +0100 (MET)

> He resists just as if he were a normal target of the
spell, using spell
> defense or shielding dice and then willpower or
body or whatever is
> appropriate.

Nice. Unfortunately the question was: How do you
judge whether the spell grounds through the
mage/shaman ?

Bye...
Georg<<<<<<<<<<

(I hate Groupwise for windows! If you are a Sysadmin
Don't DO IT!)
Ahem... anyway, IMHO I would judge that after the
target Mage rolls his resist see who has more
successes. If the spell does then it gounds out to the
real world otherwise the mage was able to control the
link to the astral plane and shut it down before it could
take effect. (Hey being a mage is tough sometimes).
HOWEVER don't forget that even if the mage manages
to get even one more success then the spell he still
takes a kicker in damage all by his lonesome.
ALSO for those who may not know or forgotten the
Mage's successes COUNT towards others successes.
So even if he only got 2-3 success they count for
anyone else in the area of effect in addition to their
own successes. (If I missed something please feel
free to correct... I'm doing this from memory at the
moment.)

Jeff
Message no. 61
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 19:51:11 +0100
Rat wrote:

> Do you deny that quickened spells must have a conduit bewteen astral
> space and the physical world? If so, please explain how a quickened
> spell can sustain itself without any magical energy. I don't expect that
> you can so I'll just continue.
Of course they have to interact. There needs to be some kind of connection
otherwise the spell (which is in "circuit" in astral space) could have
no effect on any target in the physical world.

Hah, I can hear several people cheer :-)

But you are missing the point (IMHO, of course) that is made by said rule:
Spellcasting is no link between astral and physical world that is sufficent
to ground through.
Ergo there are (at least) two kinds of connection: one sufficent to ground
through, and another, that just affects the other world without linking the
two worlds enough to ground a spell through.

> Premise: such a conduit exists for a quickened spell.
> Premise: such a conduit carries magical energies from the astral plane
> to the physical plane.
See above: Conduit may be leveled, or there may be different kinds of "link".

> Premise: grounding a spell is nothing more than forcing magical energies
> of a destructive nature from the astral plane to the physical
> plane. The only difference between this and the previous
> premise is that in the former case the magical energies are not
> of a destructive nature.
>
> Now, please explain to me why a conduit for magical energies can't be
> used as a conduit for magical energies, and I'll belive you when you say
> you can't ground through a quickening.
I hope I did just that...

> And while you're at it you can
> try to explain to me how I can posess "tea" and "no tea"
simultaneously.
Well, that question is best answered by D. Adams and the Sirius Corporation
Products...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 62
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 14:58:33 -0400
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> > Correct. All this means is that the magician cannot be hit from
> > astral space *at the moment she casts the spell*. With sustained
> > and quickened spells, this is irrelevant. The spell has already
> > been cast.
> Ok. So this means you can't be hit at all... or what? A M. that casts a
> quickened spell must perceive astrally... and after that we talk about a
> spell. AND SPELLS ARE NO MEDIUM TO GROUND OTHER SPELLS THROUGH!

We'll take this slow. The rules say that the _action_ of spellcasting
does not create a valid link for grounding. Now, let's take a magician
quickening a spell on something. He casts the spell as usual. At the
instant of the casting, you can't ground _directly_ into him. He is
not a valid target, as per the rules. HOWEVER, now, in order to
quicken the spell, he has to sustain it for a few rounds (I think).
During this time, you can ground through the spell into the spell's
TARGET. If the magician completes the quickening, the spell is, in
effect, permanently sustained. Thus you can _still_ ground through
it into it's target.

Of course, it's your game. If you don't want magic to work that way,
hey, it's ok by me. Rat and I are just trying to explain the logical
reasons why you _should_ be able to ground through other spells.

Bye,

--Craig
Message no. 63
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:03:41 -0400
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Mages sustaining spells are dual-natured entities, due to the energy
> conduit that they create to sustain or quicken those spells.

Oh dear, I'm going to have to disagree here. :) I, myself, don't
believe the magician himself is dual natured. Yet another can
of worms. :)

--Craig
Message no. 64
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:06:34 -0400
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Of course they have to interact. There needs to be some kind of connection
> otherwise the spell (which is in "circuit" in astral space) could have
> no effect on any target in the physical world.
>
> Hah, I can hear several people cheer :-)

And there was much rejoicing: "Yayyyy." :)

> But you are missing the point (IMHO, of course) that is made by said rule:
> Spellcasting is no link between astral and physical world that is sufficent
> to ground through.

Yes, but you missed my point of an earlier post. We are NOT trying
to ground through the magician when she casts the spell. We are
trying to ground through the conduit created by the spell while
it is being sustained/quickened.

--Craig
Message no. 65
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 20:21:57 +0100
Craig wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:
> > Ok. So this means you can't be hit at all... or what? A M. that casts a
> > quickened spell must perceive astrally... and after that we talk about a
> > spell. AND SPELLS ARE NO MEDIUM TO GROUND OTHER SPELLS THROUGH!
>
> We'll take this slow. The rules say that the _action_ of spellcasting
> does not create a valid link for grounding. Now, let's take a magician
> quickening a spell on something. He casts the spell as usual. At the
> instant of the casting, you can't ground _directly_ into him. He is
> not a valid target, as per the rules. HOWEVER, now, in order to
> quicken the spell, he has to sustain it for a few rounds (I think).
> During this time, you can ground through the spell into the spell's
> TARGET.
Are there other rules then my loved "Spellcasting is NOT one of them."-
rule?

> If the magician completes the quickening, the spell is, in
> effect, permanently sustained. Thus you can _still_ ground through
> it into it's target.

> Of course, it's your game. If you don't want magic to work that way,
> hey, it's ok by me. Rat and I are just trying to explain the logical
> reasons why you _should_ be able to ground through other spells.
Ok... I am sorry if it looked like I am starting a personal vendetta against
you and Rat. the opposite is fact for me: I enjoy his discussion, and am
eager to hear any ideas and comments. The reason why I started the whole
topic was that a group of 3 GMs here couldn't agree what would be right.
So I took the topic here. If I refer to Rat and you, Craig, its for just
the reason you do a great part of this discussion. IT IS NO PERSONAL ATTACK,
let me asure you. I would be sorry if this would have been unclear to any
time!

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 66
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 20:25:48 +0100
Craig wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:
> > Hah, I can hear several people cheer :-)
> And there was much rejoicing: "Yayyyy." :)
:-)

> > But you are missing the point (IMHO, of course) that is made by said rule:
> > Spellcasting is no link between astral and physical world that is sufficent
> > to ground through.
> Yes, but you missed my point of an earlier post. We are NOT trying
> to ground through the magician when she casts the spell. We are
> trying to ground through the conduit created by the spell while
> it is being sustained/quickened.
Um, I think not. What I aimed for: If the ACT of spellcasting is no activity
that allows grounding, why should the RESULT of this act, that just "sustains"
the spell "infinite", that is, does nothing other then the spell did while
being cast, be any different??

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 67
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:42:34 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
>>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:

SP> Spellcasting is no link between astral and physical world that is
SP> sufficent to ground through.

Spellcasting and sustaining a spell are not synonymous.

Casting a spell involves the following actions:

* Casting mage briefly assesenses the target and synchronizes it and
his auras (excepting damaging manipulations).
* Casting mage opens a conduit to astral space, channels energy into
the spell being cast, and lets it go.

Sustaining a spell involves the following actions:

* Cast the spell, as described above.
* Maintain the active astral conduit. It is this maintainance that has
the following effects:
* The mage sustaining the spell is a dual-natured entity due to the
existance of the astral conduit.
* The mage must concentrate on maintaining this conduit, which is
where the +2T# penalty comes from.

SP> Ergo there are (at least) two kinds of connection: one sufficent to
SP> ground through, and another, that just affects the other world
SP> without linking the two worlds enough to ground a spell through.

The natures of the connections are the same; the difference is that when
the spell isn't being sustained the astral conduit doesn't exist long
enough to be grounded through.

[...]

>> Now, please explain to me why a conduit for magical energies can't be
>> used as a conduit for magical energies, and I'll belive you when you
>> say you can't ground through a quickening.
SP> I hope I did just that...

No, you just spouted some rhetorical runaround that really said nothing
other than "you can't ground through a quickening" without actually
backing up your statements with any kind of logical reasoning.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ of skin.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 68
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:54:55 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "CSD" == Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
writes:

CSD> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> Mages sustaining spells are dual-natured entities, due to the energy
>> conduit that they create to sustain or quicken those spells.

CSD> Oh dear, I'm going to have to disagree here. :) I, myself, don't
CSD> believe the magician himself is dual natured. Yet another can
CSD> of worms. :)

Under the conditions of sustaining a spell, a mage does meet the
requirements for being defined as a dual-natured entity. He has a
presence in astral space, the inlet of the energy conduit. He has a
presence in the physical world, himself, the outlet of the energy
conduit. Thus, having a presence in both worlds he is a dual-natured
entity and can be grounded through.

This applies to both normally sustained spells and quickenings; the mage
is the physical focal point in both circumstances (which is one of the
reasons why you can't sustain a spell in the physical world and carry it
over into astral space). A spell lock is a bit different; the focus is
the outlet point for the conduit and that is where the destructive
energies of a grounding attempt ground out. It just so happens that the
aura of the focus is intermeshed with the aura of the person it is
locked on, thus anything that the lock can't stop affects both it and
the person (or to whatever else it is attached).

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ head.
Message no. 69
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.GOV>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells -Reply
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:53:31 -0400
Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>

>>>>Yes, but you missed my point of an earlier post.
We are NOT trying to ground through the magician
when she casts the spell. We are trying to ground
through the conduit created by the spell while it is
being sustained/quickened.

--Craig<<<<<<<<<

We'll since I've been going over the books back and
forth now between Grimoire and SRII I think I've found
an interesting possability in regards to _NOT_ being
able to ground through Sustained spells.
If you look in SRII p 149 under the discussion of
spells and astral space it explains how casting works.
It says
"As a spell is being cast, the magician's senses
are opened up partially to the astral plane. The
magician, because of the astral forces that power the
spell, is able to see the aura of the target. This allows
him to align or synchronize his aura with that of the
target, permitting the astral energy shaped by the
caster to leap between them, through astral space,
much as a spark of electricity jumps between two
properly polarized points."

Now my theory behind Not being able to ground
through sustained spells. Since it's a matter of Aura
matching I think the sustaining bit is just a matter of
keeping your aura in tune with your targets while the
spell is working. Hence no actual link is ever created
between the spell and you.
It also I believe clarifys the fact that a spell caster
shapes Astral force without actually touching it, it
travels to the targets aura and then grounds into the
target via the aura taking effect physically on the
target(& area if neccesary). The only sympathetic
effects is the Aura to target effect I don't even think the
spell touches the physical world at all.
Quicking is another matter that I would have to read
up on (haven't played/GMd a initiate yet but the
players are getting close to it.).


Jeff
Message no. 70
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:09:09 -0400
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> So I took the topic here. If I refer to Rat and you, Craig, its for just
> the reason you do a great part of this discussion. IT IS NO PERSONAL ATTACK,
> let me asure you. I would be sorry if this would have been unclear to any
> time!

No problem. I don't to attack anyone, either. If it ever seemed that way,
I apologize. :)

--Craig
Message no. 71
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 01:46:09 +0100
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 01:46:06 +0100 (MET)

> Under the conditions of sustaining a spell, a mage does meet the
> requirements for being defined as a dual-natured entity. He has a
> presence in astral space, the inlet of the energy conduit. He has a
> presence in the physical world, himself, the outlet of the energy
> conduit. Thus, having a presence in both worlds he is a dual-natured
> entity and can be grounded through.

Take a good look at page 139 in the main sourcebook. There is a
chapter called "Attacking through a focus" (did you never ask yourself
why there is NO "Attacking through quickened spells" or "Attacking
through sustained spells" chapter anywhere ??). There it says:

"There is a disadvantage to having an active focus of any kind. [bla,
bla] A spell cannot normally be cast from astral to mundane space, or
vice versa. These two different realms are separated by an interface
that can only be crossed under specific circumstances and criteria,
SPELLCASTING IS NOT ONE OF THEM. [bla, bla] A FOCUS by virtue of its
nature, creates a pathway between the two realms [going into details]"

O.K. - what does this mean:

1.) There is a disadvantage of having an active focus of any kind,
because you can be attacked through it. The question is: A
disadvantage compared to what ? Plain simple: to spellcasting,
quickening spells and so on.

2.) Spellcasting can NEVER create a sufficient bridge for grounding
though spells. Sustaining spells is a part of spellcasting and hence
it cannot create the neccessary pathway, so does quickening.

3.) Only Foci create these special bridges, because they are something
special - an unliving thing that creates a bridge into astral
space.

You can only attack a charcter from astral space if he is astrally
percieving, astrally projecting or wielding an activated focus and
THAT'S IT ! As I told you before: You may change the rules, but the
Shadowrun-rules are quite clear on this one.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 72
From: Mike <ASMAD@*****.ALASKA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 21:48:27 -0800
I hope that I can succeed where others have failed. I have searched high
and low thougout the Grimmy and SRII and believe that I have finally found the
answer.
Let's look at pg 138 Spell locks:
"Spell locks are special foci that establish a link with astral space and
channel astral energy into a spell, allowing it to be sustained without the
casting magicians concentration or concern."
Now let's look at the Grimoire page 87:
"Spells are ACTIVE when being cast if they are sustained or being rendered
permanent by quickening or spell locks."
Grimoire pg 44:
"Quickening is metamagic that can make any sustained spell permanent, without
need for a spell lock. The spell is given a permanent "circuit" into astral
space that keeps it running until the spell is broken, either by astral combat
or by an initiate usiong dispelling ability, described below."
Let us turn our SR11 books to Magic:attacking through a focus (139):
And they said unto us "There is a disadvantage to having an active focus
of any kind. Being a continually powered astrally energy, a magical focus
creates a continual, open bridge from astral to mundane space.
...A focus, by virtue of it's nature, creates a pathway between the two
realms. Through this channel, an astrally present magician can cast a spell at
the focus' physical component. Because the spell is affecting the physical
materials of the focus, the spell must be a physical type."
It clearly says, or maybe not so clearly, that
1)Any spell that is being constantly fed astral energy can be grounded
through.
2)All foci and sustained spells are being continually fed astral energy.
3)A quickening is continually being fed astral enegery.
Well if you follw my logic, and of course you don't have to, you should be
able to ground through a quickening. This is of course up to GM interpretation.
My opinion is that any initiate worth his spellcasting genes will mask his aura.
And btw, the caps was not a shout, it was the only way that I could highlight
the word. Hope this helps.




Mike Driggins
aka Draco
asmad@*****.alaska.edu

And no, elementals don't stay around for six months in Alaska. I can't seem to
make them last for more than four. :(
Message no. 73
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:23:16 +0100
Georg Greve said on 4 Oct 95...

> > He resists just as if he were a normal target of the spell, using spell
> > defense or shielding dice and then willpower or body or whatever is
> > appropriate.
>
> Nice. Unfortunately the question was: How do you judge whether the
> spell grounds through the mage/shaman ?

If the mage/shaman does not totally resist the spell, it grounds through.
Take a Powerball that is cast from astral space at a shaman, with 3
successes for the spell. If the shaman only gets 3 or less successes, it
grounds through. If the shaman gets 4 or more successes, it doesn't.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 74
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 21:23:41 +0930
Mike wrote:
> 2)All foci and sustained spells are being continually fed astral energy.

Correction... all ACTIVE foci are being continually fed astral energy.
Foci, including spell locks, can be placed in an inactive state, where they
are of no use to the mage, but are also no threat... It's something like a
simple or free action to activate/deactivate foic.

> 3)A quickening is continually being fed astral enegery.
> Well if you follw my logic, and of course you don't have to, you should be
> able to ground through a quickening. This is of course up to GM interpretation.
> My opinion is that any initiate worth his spellcasting genes will mask his aura.

Assuming they are a high enough level to mask ALL the quickenings/foci...
and assuming the attacking mage doesn't see through it.

> And no, elementals don't stay around for six months in Alaska. I can't seem to
> make them last for more than four. :(

That's spirits, and you don't go for four months of night or day,
either...

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 75
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:40:51 +0100
> no but you can dispell it.
> has anyone actually used dispelling?
> Can you dispel a quickened spell?
> new can-o-worms

There is nothing exciting or controversial about dispelling. Dispelling
is the same as beating it only that the target doesnt get to hit back.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 76
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:31:31 +0100
Georg Greve wrote:
> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:28:36 +0100 (MET)
>
> > No: you cannot attack an instantaneous spell, only a sustained spell.
> > Instantaneous spells aren't around long enough to attack.
>
> This is wrong, by the way. If you have delayed your action waiting for
> a spell being cast you can intercept EVERY spell.

Yes, but you'll have to do it on your own. You canot cast a spell to
attack another spell.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 77
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:32:36 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GG" == Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes:

GG> SPELLCASTING IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

As has been previously stated, sustaining a spell is NOT spellcasting.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
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Message no. 78
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 16:06:32 GMT
>
> A non-physical (mana) spell will simply destroy the gate, but it
> will not harm the magician carrying it.
>
The main rulebook says they do ground out. Therefore you can ground
them for effect just a manaball now has the same effect as a mana
missile, only hurts the soul the lock was on.

> > fireballs however work just fine! There is some question as to if you
> > use the casters or the locks physical location as the LOS for what a
> > grounding spell can hit, FASA really don't answer this one, the rules
> > suggest the former while the literature describes bodies exploding
> > and injuring team mates by them despite the spell hit the mages
> > astral form projected and well out of sight.
>
> You just use the physical plane end of the gate as the point of
> esit. When you ground through a projecting mage the spell comes
> out of his body, when you grounf through a lock the spell
> comes out of the lock, when you ground through a quickening
> the psell comes out of the object that serves are mooring
> for the quickening.
> If the attacking magician however canot see his targets
> (i.e. the guys standing around the body of the projecting magician
> the got grounded through) he canot hit them, even if the spell is
> area of effect.
>
> Another quote from the Ex-DLoH
>
which supports the interpretation i had got from the rules, fine.

? i don't remember writing the last
?
?> > 4. Tell him to ask Paul Hume about all this "how do Combat AoE
?> > spells ground though" stuff. They ground through the hole in
?> > astral space created by the spell or dual-natured being, or
?> > whatever. They then work on all the beings in the area that
?> >the mage could see from his position in real space. If the
?> > casting mage is projecting, you figure LOS from the place in real
?> >space corresponding to the place in Astral where he is.
?>

Mark
Message no. 79
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 18:55:55 +0100
Rat wrote:
> Spellcasting and sustaining a spell are not synonymous.
>
> Casting a spell involves the following actions:
>
> * Casting mage briefly assesenses the target and synchronizes it and
> his auras (excepting damaging manipulations).
> * Casting mage opens a conduit to astral space, channels energy into
> the spell being cast, and lets it go.
>
> Sustaining a spell involves the following actions:
>
> * Cast the spell, as described above.
> * Maintain the active astral conduit. It is this maintainance that has
> the following effects:
> * The mage sustaining the spell is a dual-natured entity due to the
> existance of the astral conduit.
a) Where did you take that from? I can see and follow the logic behind this,
but would like to have any reference ... you know, book and page :-)
b) Why do you think the magician would be a dual natured entity? I would
agree an astrally perceiving magician is, but why should that be when
the magician is just sustaining? Again, I'd love a reference...

> * The mage must concentrate on maintaining this conduit, which is
> where the +2T# penalty comes from.
*shrug* following this thread is anyone with a medium wound a target for
grounding spells through, because he/she has a +2TN, too... In other words, I
fail to see the argument in this... well, argument.

> SP> Ergo there are (at least) two kinds of connection: one sufficent to
> SP> ground through, and another, that just affects the other world
> SP> without linking the two worlds enough to ground a spell through.
> The natures of the connections are the same; the difference is that when
> the spell isn't being sustained the astral conduit doesn't exist long
> enough to be grounded through.
Hm, when one can interfere with a spell if a) in reach and b) having a
sustained action, one should be able to ground through a casting magician
with a sust. action, following the same argumentation...

[...]
> No, you just spouted some rhetorical runaround that really said nothing
> other than "you can't ground through a quickening" without actually
> backing up your statements with any kind of logical reasoning.
Hm, as far as I remember, I did give points where to read what I rephrased.
I still miss that from you. Until I see a base for your argumentation
other then a kind of public speech - where you are definitly better then
me - I can't understand your point of "spouted some rhetorical runaround",
which translates for me as "blubbering".

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 80
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:13:36 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
>>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:

SP> Rat wrote:
>> Spellcasting and sustaining a spell are not synonymous.
>> Casting a spell involves the following actions:
[...]
>> Sustaining a spell involves the following actions:
[...]

SP> a) Where did you take that from? I can see and follow the logic
SP> behind this, but would like to have any reference ... you know,
SP> book and page :-)

Various sections of the Shadowrun rulebooks and Grimoire I & II, where
they describe the mechanics of spellcasting, some clarifications made by
people at FASA like Tom Dowd and Paul Hume, and a bit of common sense.

SP> b) Why do you think the magician would be a dual natured entity?
SP> I would agree an astrally perceiving magician is, but why should
SP> that be when the magician is just sustaining? Again, I'd love a
SP> reference...

The astral conduit does it. For the conduit (mayhaps "siphon" is a
better term?) to exist it must have an inlet point (the astral presence)
and an outlet point (the physical presence). In the case of spells
sustained without foci, the outlet point corresponds to the mage
himself, or it is so thoroughly mixed with the mage's aura that you
cannot separate them. Thus, a mage sustaining a spell meets the criteria
for being a dual-natured entity, having both a physical and astral
presence, and may be grounded through.

>> * The mage must concentrate on maintaining this conduit, which is
>> where the +2T# penalty comes from.
SP> *shrug* following this thread is anyone with a medium wound a target
SP> for grounding spells through, because he/she has a +2TN, too...

Of course not; that's possibly the most twisted bit of logic I've ever
seen. Having a medium wound does not make one a dual-natured entity.
However, certain things that make one a dual-natured entity *may*
inflict a penalty to some actions. One such is the act of sustaining a
spell without a focus or metamagical discipline; doing so requires a
mage's concentration. This concentration is simulated in game terms as a
+2 difficulty to various tasks the mage attempts to perform.

SP> In other words, I fail to see the argument in this... well,
SP> argument.

Perhaps because you're spending so much time looking at a tree in front
of you that you don't see the forest around you?

[...]

SP> Hm, when one can interfere with a spell if a) in reach and b) having
SP> a sustained action, one should be able to ground through a casting
SP> magician with a sust. action, following the same argumentation...

No. When casting a spell, with the exception of damaging manipulations,
there are actually two energy conduits in astral space (damaging
manipulations only have the first of these conduits). The first one
powers the spell; this is the one that you could ground through if it
were around long enough. It's not, which is why you can't ground through
it. The second is the conduit between the casting mage's aura and the
target's aura. This conduit is around for a longer duration than the
initial conduit, but still not long enough to ground through. However,
it is around long enough for you to attempt to disrupt, if you are
astrally projecting and have a ready action in order to do so.

SP> [...]
>> No, you just spouted some rhetorical runaround that really said nothing
>> other than "you can't ground through a quickening" without actually
>> backing up your statements with any kind of logical reasoning.
SP> Hm, as far as I remember, I did give points where to read what I
SP> rephrased.

Your points have all been straw men; you have repeatedly claimed that
spellcasting is not sufficient for grounding, which we've never
disagreed with. You can't ground through a mage casting a spell.

But the act of sustaining a spell is a different matter. Casting a spell
is but one aspect of sustaining it, but there are other things involved.
It is these other things, the maintaining of the energy conduit to
provide power for the spell, that we are talking about, not the initial
casting of the spell.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ returned to its special container and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 81
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 07:09:45 +0930
Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> Yes, but you'll have to do it on your own. You canot cast a spell to
> attack another spell.

No... but you can ground through it... :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 82
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 18:06:44 -0400
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Under the conditions of sustaining a spell, a mage does meet the
> requirements for being defined as a dual-natured entity. He has a
> presence in astral space, the inlet of the energy conduit. He has a
> presence in the physical world, himself, the outlet of the energy
> conduit. Thus, having a presence in both worlds he is a dual-natured
> entity and can be grounded through.

The more I think about it, the more I think you're probably right.
Ok, ignore what I said about grouding into the target of the spell.
It'll hit the caster instead.

--Craig
Message no. 83
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 18:36:14 -0400
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> 2.) Spellcasting can NEVER create a sufficient bridge for grounding
> though spells. Sustaining spells is a part of spellcasting and hence
> it cannot create the neccessary pathway, so does quickening.

Au contraire. Why is sustaining part of the casting? If it were,
shouldn't you have to make a test every round you sustain? Casting
is the instant when you create a doorway to astral space and draw
down the energy necessary to create the spell. Sustaining just means
you have to hold the door open.

> 3.) Only Foci create these special bridges, because they are something
> special - an unliving thing that creates a bridge into astral
> space.

Well, a foci has an active astral presence, so you might consider
them 'living', too.

> THAT'S IT ! As I told you before: You may change the rules, but the
> Shadowrun-rules are quite clear on this one.

Unfortunately, we didn't change the rules in this case. :)

--Craig
Message no. 84
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:55:16 +0100
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:55:12 +0100 (MET)

> Au contraire. Why is sustaining part of the casting? If it were,
> shouldn't you have to make a test every round you sustain? Casting
> is the instant when you create a doorway to astral space and draw
> down the energy necessary to create the spell. Sustaining just means
> you have to hold the door open.

Exactly ! That's why you don't have to make a test every round, you
just have to keep the door open, but the flow that comes through the
door is the same as if you just opened it for a short instance, which
means you could ground through instant spells as well if you think you
cound use sustained spells for grounding.

> Well, a foci has an active astral presence, so you might consider
> them 'living', too.

A living thing is a thing that can reproduce itself - just think of
the consequences: Put your favorite foci together in a dark box and
the next day you got a combined focus. GREAT !

> > THAT'S IT ! As I told you before: You may change the rules, but the
> > Shadowrun-rules are quite clear on this one.
> Unfortunately, we didn't change the rules in this case. :)

Oh - forgive me - I thought you were one of the guys who allows
grounding through sustained spells...

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 85
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:03:42 +0100
Robert Watkins wrote:
> Jani Fikouras wrote:
> >
> > Yes, but you'll have to do it on your own. You canot cast a spell to
> > attack another spell.
>
> No... but you can ground through it... :)

Sure you can and you can also destroy a stationary (locked/sustained/
quickened) spell with another spell. What I mean is that you canot
cast a spell to attack an "instantatious" spell, i.e. a combat spell.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 86
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:31:15 -0400
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> Exactly ! That's why you don't have to make a test every round, you
> just have to keep the door open, but the flow that comes through the
> door is the same as if you just opened it for a short instance, which
> means you could ground through instant spells as well if you think you
> cound use sustained spells for grounding.

It's a question of timing. Instant spells are just that. They form,
fly to the target, and disappear in a tiny fraction of a second. By
the time you try to ground through it, it's been and gone. Sustained
spells hang around as long as the caster wants.

> A living thing is a thing that can reproduce itself - just think of
> the consequences: Put your favorite foci together in a dark box and
> the next day you got a combined focus. GREAT !

That's the biological definition. I'm talking about the Shadowrun magical
definition. The Grimoire, in fact, specifically states that spells are
living things in astral space. If a spell can be living, why not a focus?

> Oh - forgive me - I thought you were one of the guys who allows
> grounding through sustained spells...

I am.

--Craig
Message no. 87
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 16:51:38 MET
A spell is some magical energy. So the bridge of a sustained one is the same
as the one of a spontaneous spell. If you can't ground a spell via a
spontaneous spell, you can't via a sustained one.
The spells in astral can be used by mages as "weapons" so you can hit a spell
with another (but if it is a spontaneous one you must be astrally projecting
and have delayed an action).

Some seem to think that you can ground a spell on a mage sustaining another
because he has a +2 T.N. modifier (the same as by astrally perceiving) but
it is not because he is linked to astral or the modifiers from astral
perception and from the spells sustained wouldn't be cumulative. And they are!

In fact, you can ground a spell on a quickened one but only in this situation:
When quickening a spell, you must be in astral perception so you can be
attacked but NOT AFTER the process is finished. I'm not sure but I remember
that it is written in the Grimmy that you can be attacked when you are in this
phase, meaning you cannot when it's finished! (I'm sure dear Sascha will
verify)

A spell creates a link between astral and physical world but it is not
sufficient to ground a spell through. And if it were, why wouldn't it be
possible to ground a spell via the aura of every living being (which is almost
everything because in SR a living being is the one you can't go through in
astral).

I think some argue against the fact you can't ground a spell via a quickened
one because of game balance. So, remember a quickened spell is allways active
meaning every spirit (especially the ones wanting to make a joke) can come
around and destroy it. The magician won't be hit but he will have lost some
karma, which I think is sufficient for them not to abuse from the rules (the
one doing it are called GrosBill in France: cultural quote).

Cobra.
Message no. 88
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:12:36 -0400
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Gallas William wrote:

> A spell is some magical energy. So the bridge of a sustained one is the same
> as the one of a spontaneous spell. If you can't ground a spell via a
> spontaneous spell, you can't via a sustained one.

No. The instant spell doesn't last long enough.

> The spells in astral can be used by mages as "weapons" so you can hit a
spell
> with another (but if it is a spontaneous one you must be astrally projecting
> and have delayed an action).

No. You cannot target a spell at another spell. You can intercept a
spell with your own astral body, but you can't throw another spell at it.

> Some seem to think that you can ground a spell on a mage sustaining another
> because he has a +2 T.N. modifier (the same as by astrally perceiving) but

No one said that. Rat was pointing out that the reason for the +2 while
sustaining is that the magician is actively maintaining the astral link.
He said nothing about grounding just becuase of the modifier. *boggle*

> A spell creates a link between astral and physical world but it is not
> sufficient to ground a spell through. And if it were, why wouldn't it be
> possible to ground a spell via the aura of every living being (which is almost
> everything because in SR a living being is the one you can't go through in
> astral).

Because the aura has nothing to do with creating a link between astral and
physical.

--Craig
Message no. 89
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 17:23:57 +0100
Mark Steedman wrote:
>
> >
> > Hmm, I'll have to look that up, but anyway a manaball is a physical
> > spell so it will ground out :)
> >
> Type = mana. its called a manaball

Oh yes, I get it :) What I meant is that it does physical damage :)
Hmm, what do the guys from FASA mean, physical damage or physical type ?

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 90
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:09:49 +0100
Craig wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Gallas William wrote:
>
> > A spell is some magical energy. So the bridge of a sustained one is the same
> > as the one of a spontaneous spell. If you can't ground a spell via a
> > spontaneous spell, you can't via a sustained one.
>
> No. The instant spell doesn't last long enough.
[Gallas comment about spell-spell attack snipped]
> No. You cannot target a spell at another spell. You can intercept a
> spell with your own astral body, but you can't throw another spell at it.

Hm, SRII pp. 82-83: Complex Actions.
Cast spell - means it takes a whole action to cast a spell. Quite long, I
think... but what's that? Directly under it? Uh-oh...
Melee/unarmed attack... looks as if there is not much time difference between
the two, eh? Hm...
So if you can attack it w/ a sustained action and melee combat... there MUST
be enough time for a spell, too. So grounding would be possible, which it is
NOT (SRII... well, you know this part by know :-)
That should break your argument "You COULD ground through an instant spell
if just there were the time..." and send it to /dev/NULL.

> No one said that. Rat was pointing out that the reason for the +2 while
> sustaining is that the magician is actively maintaining the astral link.
> He said nothing about grounding just becuase of the modifier. *boggle*
But no rule states the +2TN is for "keeping the astral link"! Just because
the TN for astral perceiving is +2 doesn't mean it's the same. You woulden't
even get a +xTN for concentrating... and, on the other hand, a moderatly
wounded character has the same modifier... does that... oh, no, Rat corrected
me there already :-)

> Because the aura has nothing to do with creating a link between astral and
> physical.
Spellcasting is not... well...
Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 91
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:37:06 -0400
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> Hm, SRII pp. 82-83: Complex Actions.
> Cast spell - means it takes a whole action to cast a spell. Quite long, I
> think... but what's that? Directly under it? Uh-oh...

How long is one action? 1/3 sec or less. How much of that time does
it take to cast the spell and how much of it is just mental build-up?
My point is, based on references in the Grimoire, that the actual
connection to astral space lasts for a very brief instant, ie, not
long enough for someone else to get a spell off.

> Melee/unarmed attack... looks as if there is not much time difference between
> the two, eh? Hm...

Does because they're both complex actions doesn't mean their similar.
I would say spellcating is a complex action because it's a difficult
mental exercise, while melee combat, well, just takes a while.

> So if you can attack it w/ a sustained action and melee combat... there MUST
> be enough time for a spell, too. So grounding would be possible, which it is
> NOT (SRII... well, you know this part by know :-)

Um, I'm not sure I understand this....

> That should break your argument "You COULD ground through an instant spell
> if just there were the time..." and send it to /dev/NULL.

Nope, sorry. I'm standing pat. :)

> But no rule states the +2TN is for "keeping the astral link"! Just because
> the TN for astral perceiving is +2 doesn't mean it's the same. You woulden't
> even get a +xTN for concentrating... and, on the other hand, a moderatly

If the +2 is not from keeping the link, and you say you wouldn't get it
from concentrating, then what is it from?

--Craig
Message no. 92
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:42:51 -0400
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> Oh yes, I get it :) What I meant is that it does physical damage :)
> Hmm, what do the guys from FASA mean, physical damage or physical type ?

Mana spells can hit any living target and astral beings.
Physical spells can hit anything on the physical world, but don't work
against purely astral beings.

Either type can do physical damage.

--Craig
Message no. 93
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 21:15:39 +0100
Craig S Dohmen wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:
>
> > Oh yes, I get it :) What I meant is that it does physical damage :)
> > Hmm, what do the guys from FASA mean, physical damage or physical type ?
>
> Mana spells can hit any living target and astral beings.
> Physical spells can hit anything on the physical world, but don't work
> against purely astral beings.
>
> Either type can do physical damage.

No the question was wether physical spell (spells of physical type)
or spells that do physical damage are allowed to ground through
gates and affect others in the physical plane.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 94
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:09:47 +0100
Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
> SP> a) Where did you take that from?

> Various sections of the Shadowrun rulebooks and Grimoire I & II, where
> they describe the mechanics of spellcasting, some clarifications made by
> people at FASA like Tom Dowd and Paul Hume, and a bit of common sense.
Hm... you must be refering to the parts that have been quoted here. By me.
About spellcasting not building a bridge for grounding... otherwise you
surely would let us share your knowledge??

> SP> b) Why do you think the magician would be a dual natured entity?
> SP> I would agree an astrally perceiving magician is, but why should
> SP> that be when the magician is just sustaining? Again, I'd love a
> SP> reference...
>
> The astral conduit does it. For the conduit (mayhaps "siphon" is a
> better term?) to exist it must have an inlet point (the astral presence)
> and an outlet point (the physical presence). In the case of spells
> sustained without foci, the outlet point corresponds to the mage
> himself, or it is so thoroughly mixed with the mage's aura that you
> cannot separate them. Thus, a mage sustaining a spell meets the criteria
> for being a dual-natured entity, having both a physical and astral
> presence, and may be grounded through.
makes absolute sense. But when you start with "a spell works its power on the
physical world without creating a link strong enough to ground through"
(<-supported by the fact of SRII... well, you know the part :-) and then
continue "it would be not logically explainable why a spell, while being cast,
develops stronger ties to physical world when sustained", we stand at
completly different points... although I think "a bit of common sense" is
even (*grin*) in my arguments... Therefore I'd like (once again) references.
Not explaining to me again and again your idea of "common sense".

> >> * The mage must concentrate on maintaining this conduit, which is
> >> where the +2T# penalty comes from.
> SP> *shrug* following this thread is anyone with a medium wound a target
> SP> for grounding spells through, because he/she has a +2TN, too...
>
> Of course not; that's possibly the most twisted bit of logic I've ever
> seen.
Of course, but it matched "the +2TN is a hint you can ground through quickened
spells". I did hope you (and others) see that :-)

> SP> In other words, I fail to see the argument in this... well,
> SP> argument.
> Perhaps because you're spending so much time looking at a tree in front
> of you that you don't see the forest around you?
Perhaps you spend so much time explaining to me your "common sense" that you
fail to explain the game mechanics?

To repeat: I myself did know how _I_ will rule this in "my" group, but I wanted
to know if there were any rules to this I haven't read yet or just forgotten.
OK. I see & understand (indeed I do) your "common sense", now give my the
basics: R U L E S B Y T H E B O O K (S)

> No. When casting a spell, with the exception of damaging manipulations,
> there are actually two energy conduits in astral space (damaging
> manipulations only have the first of these conduits). The first one
> powers the spell; this is the one that you could ground through if it
> were around long enough. It's not, which is why you can't ground through
> it. The second is the conduit between the casting mage's aura and the
> target's aura. This conduit is around for a longer duration than the
> initial conduit, but still not long enough to ground through. However,
> it is around long enough for you to attempt to disrupt, if you are
> astrally projecting and have a ready action in order to do so.
hm... interesting theory. Yours?

> Your points have all been straw men; you have repeatedly claimed that
> spellcasting is not sufficient for grounding, which we've never
> disagreed with. You can't ground through a mage casting a spell.
No comment. I will not even ask for a reference... :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 95
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 11:02:20 +0100
Jani Fikouras said on 6 Oct 95...

> > > Hmm, I'll have to look that up, but anyway a manaball is a physical
> > > spell so it will ground out :)
> > >
> > Type = mana. its called a manaball
>
> Oh yes, I get it :) What I meant is that it does physical damage :)
> Hmm, what do the guys from FASA mean, physical damage or physical type ?

Physical _type_. Nearly every Mana spell does Physical damage, but that
does not make it a Physical spell.
And only Physical-type spells can ground through items, people. spirits,
etc.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The Serious Lemon Squad
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 96
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 12:58:07 +0100
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 12:58:03 +0100 (MET)

> How long is one action? 1/3 sec or less. How much of that time does
> it take to cast the spell and how much of it is just mental build-up?
> My point is, based on references in the Grimoire, that the actual
> connection to astral space lasts for a very brief instant, ie, not
> long enough for someone else to get a spell off.

One action is exactly 3 seconds / # of actions you have. As long as
you don't have 9 actions (ini 91 and above) it's longer than 1/3
second... just imagine: Spellcasting is synchronizing auras, reciting
some words or formulas in your brain (if you are a hermetic mage) or
bringing yourself into a special mood (if you are a shaman) and
releasing the spell. How long do YOU need to recall the equations for
the Coriolis acceleration, for instance ? Significantly longer than
1/3 second, I bet. So spellcasting needs some moments to take place.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 97
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:33:18 +0930
Georg Greve wrote:
> releasing the spell. How long do YOU need to recall the equations for
> the Coriolis acceleration, for instance ? Significantly longer than
> 1/3 second, I bet. So spellcasting needs some moments to take place.

Some twenty minutes, but that's cause I had to find my high school physics
book. If you'd asked me to recall the procedure for building a circular
linked list, for example, it'd have been a bit faster... :) Spellcasting,
like all things, improves with practise.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 98
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 16:12:23 +0100
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 16:12:18 +0100 (MET)

> It clearly says, or maybe not so clearly, that
> 1)Any spell that is being constantly fed astral energy can be grounded
> through.
> 2)All foci and sustained spells are being continually fed astral energy.
> 3)A quickening is continually being fed astral enegery.
> Well if you follw my logic, and of course you don't have to, you should be
> able to ground through a quickening. This is of course up to GM
interpretation.
> My opinion is that any initiate worth his spellcasting genes will mask his
aura.
> And btw, the caps was not a shout, it was the only way that I could highlight
> the word. Hope this helps.

This is nonsense. How does a spell work ? The mage/shaman takes astral
energy and channels it the way he wants it. If the spell is
instanteous, this is only neccessary for a very short time - if it is
a spell that has to be sustained he needs to keep up the channeling -
which means the flow stays the same - he only has to keep it up. How
long a spell is fed astral energy cannot be the crucial point to say
that grounding is possible. How long has the channeling to be kept ? 1
Round, 2 rounds, 1 minute ??? You could argue for all of this - like:
"After the spell was kept up for 1 minute, the link between astral
plane and mundane plane has stabilized enough to allow grounding."

So time cannot be the crucial point - if you allow grounding through
spells you have to allow grounding though ALL spells (even the
instantaneous ones) which the sourcebook doesn't allow. Quickening is
like sustaining without haveing to concentrate on it - so the rules
for quickening and sustaining should be the same.

By the way - there is a good way to see it (which corresponds to the
rules):

Grounding through foci and anchored items is possible, because they
are fed by "raw" astral energy - they got a direct link to astral
space. Spells aren't sufficient, because the mage is taking astral
energies and channels them with his own will - only astral energies
that match the pattern exactly (meaning: the same spell of the same
force cast by the same mage) can use this link. When a mage percieves
(or even projects) astrally he becomes vulnerable, because he opens
himself to the "raw" and "unchanneled" energies of astral space.

So what do you think about this kind of thought ?

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 99
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 16:57:32 +0100
Craig wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:
[cut out comparison of spellcasting and melee combat both being complex
actions]

> How long is one action? 1/3 sec or less. How much of that time does
> it take to cast the spell and how much of it is just mental build-up?
> My point is, based on references in the Grimoire, that the actual
> connection to astral space lasts for a very brief instant, ie, not
> long enough for someone else to get a spell off.
[2nd part of complex actions removed (hey, I DO know othr word then "snip :-)]

> Does because they're both complex actions doesn't mean their similar.
> I would say spellcating is a complex action because it's a difficult
> mental exercise, while melee combat, well, just takes a while.
Yup. One thing needs a while because the acting person needs to concentrate,
the other because the acting person needs to move some muscles. But Shadowrun
says: The time needed for both is about the same!

And since the attack of a spell coming towards you in astral space is a melee
attack (I agree you can't attack an incoming spell with a spell), the argument
brought up by you and Rat: "The reason why you can't ground through spells is
that there is no time" is not right. When there is time for a complex "melee
attack"-action, there's also time for a complex "spell-casting"-action. By
the
rules. Since SRII p.139 says: "Spellcasting is NOT one of them." there must
be another reason but time (which I just showed by the book not being the
reason).

Which leads us to: WHAT REASON IS THERE YOU CAN'T GROUND SPELLS THROUGH SPELLS?
And, of course: When time is not the reason, it doesn't mater if a spell is
* just cast,
* sustained or
* quickened.
When you remove the time, these things have just one thing in common: They
are spells. Foci are different: They are cast INTO a physical object.

[snip prior, quite hastily typed atempt to explain]
> Um, I'm not sure I understand this....

> > But no rule states the +2TN is for "keeping the astral link"! Just
because
> > the TN for astral perceiving is +2 doesn't mean it's the same. You woulden't
> > even get a +xTN for concentrating... and, on the other hand, a moderatly
> If the +2 is not from keeping the link, and you say you wouldn't get it
> from concentrating, then what is it from?
I didn't say it does not come from concentration. Vice versa, I think it's
exactly the reason for the modifier: Concentration. You send parts of your
brain to the background task of: "watch out, remember that phrase". But
NOT from "watching the spell in astral space", since astrally perceiving
alone gives you a +2 modifier, and if you would have to concentrate on the
spell, it would increase... IMHO, of course :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 100
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 17:01:15 +0100
Jani wrote:
> No the question was wether physical spell (spells of physical type)
> or spells that do physical damage are allowed to ground through
> gates and affect others in the physical plane.
Since Craig, Rat and I agree on "grounding is only possible through a physical
link", you need a spell of physical spell TYPE to send it through a link.
It has got to affect inanimate... uh, no, there we don't agree anymore :-)
Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 101
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 01:47:43 +0930
Georg Greve wrote:
> So time cannot be the crucial point - if you allow grounding through
> spells you have to allow grounding though ALL spells (even the
> instantaneous ones) which the sourcebook doesn't allow. Quickening is
> like sustaining without haveing to concentrate on it - so the rules
> for quickening and sustaining should be the same.
>

But you COULD ground through an instantaneous spell... if it weren't for
the slight problem that it IS instantaneous... :)

And the rules of FOCI and quickenings should be the same... as quickenings
are just a more advanced form of spell locking. Sustaining is different,
and should be... :) (Technically, in my game, you can't ground through a
spell... it's just that sustaining the spell makes the caster astrally
active, so you ground through him/her VIA the spell... :) )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 102
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 17:15:13 +0100
Georg wrote:
> One action is exactly 3 seconds / # of actions you have. As long as
> you don't have 9 actions (ini 91 and above) it's longer than 1/3
> second... just imagine: Spellcasting is synchronizing auras, reciting
> some words or formulas in your brain (if you are a hermetic mage) or
> bringing yourself into a special mood (if you are a shaman) and
> releasing the spell. How long do YOU need to recall the equations for
> the Coriolis acceleration, for instance ? Significantly longer than
> 1/3 second, I bet. So spellcasting needs some moments to take place.
*smile* Not by the rules :-)

Sascha
Message no. 103
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 17:28:12 +0100
Robert Watkins wrote:
> But you COULD ground through an instantaneous spell... if it weren't for
> the slight problem that it IS instantaneous... :)
Disagree... you can attack it in melee, and spellcasting doesn't take
longer according to SRII, pp. 82-83. Of course you need a held action, but
then...

> And the rules of FOCI and quickenings should be the same... as quickenings
> are just a more advanced form of spell locking. Sustaining is different,
> and should be... :) (Technically, in my game, you can't ground through a
> spell... it's just that sustaining the spell makes the caster astrally
> active, so you ground through him/her VIA the spell... :) )
...you can't ground through quickened spells... "as quickenings are just a
more" ADVANCED "form of spell locking". :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 104
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:48:28 +0100
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:48:25 +0100 (MET)

> It's a question of timing. Instant spells are just that. They form,
> fly to the target, and disappear in a tiny fraction of a second. By
> the time you try to ground through it, it's been and gone. Sustained
> spells hang around as long as the caster wants.

If you use your line of thought grounding would be possible as long as
the spell exists, right ? So if you are able to intercept even
instant-duration spells via delaying your action until the spell is
being cast you could ground through that spell as well. The "that's
too short" and "that isn't" argument doesn't work - tell me why for
instance 1 second is long enough, but 3 seconds aren't (a slow mage
with only 1 action needs 3 seconds to cast this instant-duration spell
and you are not grounding through it, while another mage has 3 actions
and casts a sustained spell in 1 second which is valid for grounding
through from the first second if I take your line of thought)...

> > Oh - forgive me - I thought you were one of the guys who allows
> > grounding through sustained spells...
> I am.

Then why do you pretend not to be changing the rules ??? *scratch*

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 105
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 10:07:29 +0930
Georg Greve wrote:
>
> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:48:25 +0100 (MET)
>
> > It's a question of timing. Instant spells are just that. They form,
> > fly to the target, and disappear in a tiny fraction of a second. By
> > the time you try to ground through it, it's been and gone. Sustained
> > spells hang around as long as the caster wants.
>
> If you use your line of thought grounding would be possible as long as
> the spell exists, right ? So if you are able to intercept even
> instant-duration spells via delaying your action until the spell is
> being cast you could ground through that spell as well. The "that's
> too short" and "that isn't" argument doesn't work - tell me why for
> instance 1 second is long enough, but 3 seconds aren't (a slow mage
> with only 1 action needs 3 seconds to cast this instant-duration spell
> and you are not grounding through it, while another mage has 3 actions
> and casts a sustained spell in 1 second which is valid for grounding
> through from the first second if I take your line of thought)...

Because the link to astral space isn't around WHILE the spell is being
cast, only AFTERWARDS... so an instant spell isn't a valid link for all 3
seconds... only the last nanosecond or so.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 106
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 00:07:24 -0400
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Georg Greve wrote:
> > releasing the spell. How long do YOU need to recall the equations for
> > the Coriolis acceleration, for instance ? Significantly longer than
> > 1/3 second, I bet. So spellcasting needs some moments to take place.

Easy. Take the total derivative of the equations for circular
motion in a non-inertial system. The left-over crap after all the
spatial partial derivatives are the coriolis terms. :)

Marc (sorry, I have Advanced Hydrodynamics homework on the brain)
Message no. 107
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 14:59:22 +0100
Robert wrote:
[stuff deleted]
> > being cast you could ground through that spell as well. The "that's
> > too short" and "that isn't" argument doesn't work - tell me why
for
> > instance 1 second is long enough, but 3 seconds aren't (a slow mage
> > with only 1 action needs 3 seconds to cast this instant-duration spell
> > and you are not grounding through it, while another mage has 3 actions
> > and casts a sustained spell in 1 second which is valid for grounding
> > through from the first second if I take your line of thought)...
>
> Because the link to astral space isn't around WHILE the spell is being
> cast, only AFTERWARDS... so an instant spell isn't a valid link for all 3
> seconds... only the last nanosecond or so.
??????? ??????? ????????? Where did you get that idea from? I am quite sure
it's in no book, and I even miss the "common sense" link... Oh spirits,
tell me why a spell should "switch", after being cast, to be a possible
"grounding target", when it's not while being cast (that is, while the
magician still influences it...)

Following what has been called "common sense" I could agree it's possible
to feed energy into a spell that is being cast, thus grounding could be
able. By the rules, it's NOT!!! But to say you the spell develops a stronger
link to physical world after leaving the only possible physical connection
- the magician casting it - ... well ... ound not plausible to me.
(Sorry, would like to say it some other way, but my English would make that
an insult, I fear, so I have to keep it that vague... And as I said before,
I do not want to insult people, I want to find out what the rules say about
grounding through quickened spells! :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 108
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 16:27:40 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> Jani Fikouras said on 6 Oct 95...
> > Oh yes, I get it :) What I meant is that it does physical damage :)
> > Hmm, what do the guys from FASA mean, physical damage or physical type ?
>
> Physical _type_. Nearly every Mana spell does Physical damage, but that
> does not make it a Physical spell.
> And only Physical-type spells can ground through items, people. spirits,
> etc.

Oh in that case I guess that Manaball is not that great a spell after
all :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 109
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:25:43 -0400
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

[my stuff deleted]
> One action is exactly 3 seconds / # of actions you have. As long as

Yeah, that's what I meant. Don't ask me what I was thinking when I
wrote that, cos I don't know. :)

> releasing the spell. How long do YOU need to recall the equations for
> the Coriolis acceleration, for instance ? Significantly longer than

Long time, cos I don't know them. :) again

> 1/3 second, I bet. So spellcasting needs some moments to take place.

Ok, the entire procedure may take a while, but I maintain the moment
of drawing the power from astral space is too brief to ground through;
mainly because it says so in the rules. Anyway, you've got to have
_some_ limits.

--Craig
Message no. 110
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:38:29 -0400
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> which means the flow stays the same - he only has to keep it up. How
> long a spell is fed astral energy cannot be the crucial point to say
> that grounding is possible. How long has the channeling to be kept ? 1
> Round, 2 rounds, 1 minute ??? You could argue for all of this - like:
> "After the spell was kept up for 1 minute, the link between astral
> plane and mundane plane has stabilized enough to allow grounding."

No I couldn't argue like that. Ok, let's try it this way:

CASE I:
-------
Magician A casts a fireball at Renaku Goon du jour.
Magician B is watching in astral space. She sees the spell form around
Magician A and tries to ground through it. As you've pointed out in
a previous post, this may take a while. By the time B is ready to cast,
A has already gotten the spell off and the Goon's friends are trying to
beat out the flames.


CASE II:
--------
Magician B is tooling around in astral space, picking up the vibes or
something, and comes across this lovely increased reflexes spell
Magician A is sustaining. Being in a surly mood (she ran out of orange
juice this morning), she decides to toss a power bolt into A. Since
the inc. reflexes spell is just sitting there, B has all the time she
needs to get her power bolt off.


> So time cannot be the crucial point - if you allow grounding through
> spells you have to allow grounding though ALL spells (even the

Nope. See the argument above.

> Grounding through foci and anchored items is possible, because they
> are fed by "raw" astral energy - they got a direct link to astral

Wait a minute. If that's true, then what's the difference between
say, a spirit focus and a weapon focus. They can't be tapping just
'raw' energy or they would all operate the same. And if they're
'filtering' the energy in some way, by your argument, you couldn't
ground through them.

--Craig
Message no. 111
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:43:39 -0400
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> And since the attack of a spell coming towards you in astral space is a melee
> attack (I agree you can't attack an incoming spell with a spell), the argument
> brought up by you and Rat: "The reason why you can't ground through spells is
> that there is no time" is not right. When there is time for a complex
"melee

Before you can attack the spell, you have to intercept it. This means
you fly over and stick your (astral) body in the way. This is easy and
quick, which is why you can get away with it. Also note that if you
intercept the spell, you resolve the combat with the spell first before
determining the spell's effect on the target. In effect, the astral combat
happens instantaneously, so, no, you can't ground through the spell
while someone is fighting it.

> (which I just showed by the book not being the reason).

Not yet. :)

--Craig
Message no. 112
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:48:01 -0400
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> If you use your line of thought grounding would be possible as long as
> the spell exists, right ? So if you are able to intercept even
> instant-duration spells via delaying your action until the spell is
> being cast you could ground through that spell as well. The "that's
> too short" and "that isn't" argument doesn't work - tell me why for

I covered this in another post, but, what the hell? You said in a
previous post, and I agreed, that spellcasting takes a little while
to complete. So, even if you delay your action until you see the
spell form around the magician in astral space, you _still_ (by your
own argument) don't have time to get your own spell off before the
other spell hit its target and disappears. However, it's easy to
run over and get in the way of the spell's path (intercepting).

--Craig
Message no. 113
From: Gary Carroll <gary@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 08:56:18 -0700
>On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:
>> 2.) Spellcasting can NEVER create a sufficient bridge for
>> grounding though spells. Sustaining spells is a part of
>> spellcasting and hence it cannot create the neccessary
>> pathway, so does quickening.
>
>Craig replies: Au contraire. Why is sustaining part of the
>casting? If it were, shouldn't you have to make a test every
>round you sustain? Casting is the instant when you create a
>doorway to astral space and draw down the energy necessary to
>create the spell. Sustaining just means you have to hold the door
>open.

Well yes casting does open the doorway, but "in accordance with
the DLoH" you can only ground through Foci/Anchors and yes
quickenings. Let me give you an example, think of a plasma light
(you know the globe with the plasma in it that looks like lightning
comming out of the center). Now think of a sustained spell as
just the globe *see* how it pulls electricity from every direction,
yes it is drawing from astral but it's not a solid connection,
so the most you can hope is to disrupt the connection and cancel
the spell. Now think of touching the edge of the plasma ball,
*see* how the static changes to one solid stream of electricity,
this is what happens when you spend karma to quicken a spell.
The karma bonds a physical connection to the astral space.
Foci are the same only the spell connects to the foci and
you bond (*a connection*) to the foci/lock.

Hope this helps.
Thanks
Gary C.
Message no. 114
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:09:41 -0400
On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Gary Carroll (A new player in the game!) wrote:

> Well yes casting does open the doorway, but "in accordance with
> the DLoH" you can only ground through Foci/Anchors and yes
> quickenings.

Um, 'in accordance with the DloH', sustained spells work, too.
Nice argument, though. Best analogy I've seen yet.

--Craig
Message no. 115
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:14:48 -0400
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> even (*grin*) in my arguments... Therefore I'd like (once again) references.
> Not explaining to me again and again your idea of "common sense".

Rat and I are getting our information from statements made by Tom Dowd
(the previous Sr developer) on various on-line forums and several times
at GenCon (annual gaming convention). I asked him myself, and was standing
about 2 feet away looking right at him when he answered, so there's no
mistaking what he said. :) For what it's worth, Steve Kenson, author of
the Awakenings sourcebook, supports this view. Watch, he'll have changed
his mind and when Awakenings comes out, I'll have to retract all this.

--Craig
Message no. 116
From: Jason Larke <jlarke@*****.LSA.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:55:03 -0400
>>>>> On Mon, 09 Oct 1995 11:25:43 EDT, Craig S Dohmen
>>>>> <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU> said:

CSD> Ok, the entire procedure may take a while, but I maintain
CSD> the moment of drawing the power from astral space is too
CSD> brief to ground through; mainly because it says so in the
CSD> rules. Anyway, you've got to have _some_ limits.

That's one of the major questions. In my mind spellcasting can
take very little time indeed- the magician may be using magic to
accelerate his actions, and he also spends most of his time
working with magic. The Grimoire is pretty clear that magic is a
way of life. How long does it take you to bring to mind some
concept from whatever you do as a profession or major hobby? I
know I can do it in very little time.

So if a spell is just a matter of recalling a formula and a
certain state of mind, and the magician spends most of his/her
time practicing and researching ways to do just that, I have no
problem with it taking a second or less.

And of that time, a lot of it is probably involved in the recall,
the focusing, and setting the state of mind. Once the magician is
prepared, the syncing of auras and the delivery of the spell are
extremely fast, effectively instantaneous.

So, in re grounding through instantaneous spells, I think it
would be possible *if* you somehow knew exactly when the casting
would start and exactly how long it would take. The problem is
that if the mage is a little bit slow that day, the spell will
take a little longer, and the grounding would fizzle. So
grounding through an instantaeneous spell is effectively
impossible.

But that doesn't have to be true for everyone. You can argue it
both ways well enough to do it however you like in your own
game. I would allow grounding through almost anything just to
discourage mages on both sides- I get sick of magic real
easily. But you don't have to do it that way.

Jason Larke- jlarke@*****.edu- sysadmin, philosophy guy, and Rush fan
"I drink the blood of my enemies," Hawk said, and smiled his happy grin."
I don't speak for ITD-LSA, U-M, or the international communist conspiracy.
Send mail for PGP public key.
Message no. 117
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 17:53:07 +0100
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 17:53:04 +0100 (MET)

> CASE I:
> -------
> Magician A casts a fireball at Renaku Goon du jour.
> Magician B is watching in astral space. She sees the spell form around
> Magician A and tries to ground through it. As you've pointed out in
> a previous post, this may take a while. By the time B is ready to cast,
> A has already gotten the spell off and the Goon's friends are trying to
> beat out the flames.

Nope - this wouldn't explain why you can intercept spells in astral
space - melee combat takes exactly as long as spellcasting does so you
could cast as spell as well - your example would be:

Magician A casts a fireball at Renraku Goon du jour.
Magician B is watching in astral space. She sees the spell form around
Magician A and grounds through it, because she is acting as fast as
she thinks in the astral plane while Magician B is "stuck in the flesh".

> Wait a minute. If that's true, then what's the difference between
> say, a spirit focus and a weapon focus. They can't be tapping just
> 'raw' energy or they would all operate the same. And if they're
> 'filtering' the energy in some way, by your argument, you couldn't
> ground through them.

So you say a wolf and a cat are exactly the same only because both eat
raw meat ?? The mage cooks/fries/whatevers his meat before eating
(casting spells) it - maybe you get the drift now.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 118
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 18:03:07 +0100
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 18:03:03 +0100 (MET)

> Well yes casting does open the doorway, but "in accordance with
> the DLoH" you can only ground through Foci/Anchors and yes
> quickenings. Let me give you an example, think of a plasma light
> (you know the globe with the plasma in it that looks like lightning
> comming out of the center). Now think of a sustained spell as
> just the globe *see* how it pulls electricity from every direction,
> yes it is drawing from astral but it's not a solid connection,
> so the most you can hope is to disrupt the connection and cancel
> the spell. Now think of touching the edge of the plasma ball,
> *see* how the static changes to one solid stream of electricity,
> this is what happens when you spend karma to quicken a spell.
> The karma bonds a physical connection to the astral space.
> Foci are the same only the spell connects to the foci and
> you bond (*a connection*) to the foci/lock.

Huh ? I always though we all agree that there is no difference in the
"groundability" of sustained and quickened spells. The question is "is
it possible to ground through sustained/quickened spells ?". I say
no. Unfortunately we are turning in circles at the moment (at least
that's the way how I feel).

So lets come to an end. We got the following situation:

A.) The Sourcebook says that it is NOT possible to ground through into
the mundande realm usually.

B.) The Sourcebook says that spells CANNOT create a neccessary link to
ground through. They do not say WHICH spells aren't valid or if some
spells are valid, so we have to assume that ALL spells aren't valid
for grounding.

C.) The Sourcebook says the Foci CAN create the neccessary links to
ground through.

D.) The Grimthingy says that Anchored Items create the neccessary
link, too.

As far as I know it's NOWHERE written that sustained or quickened
spells generate an exception to rule A. So as long as you don't show
me where it clearly says that you CAN ground through
sustained/quickened spells I won't agree that it's possible.

If you say "I think it makes sense if you could ground through them"
you are free to change the rules accordingly, but at the moment the
rules say no.

Please don't come with these "It doesn't say 'you cannot ground
through sustained spells' exactly" arguments. The sourcebook doesn't
say "You may not transform into a huge tree and hop around singing the
Marsellaise", too, but noone claims that it's possible. You get the
drift ?

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 119
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:36:04 -0400
On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> Nope - this wouldn't explain why you can intercept spells in astral
> space - melee combat takes exactly as long as spellcasting does so you
> could cast as spell as well - your example would be:

Read again. You have to _intercept_ the spell _before_ you can begin melee.
Intercepting is relatively easy because you can move extremely fast in
astral space. And even at that rate, you _still_ have to have a delayed
action to stop the spell. How can you have time to get a spell off?

> Magician A casts a fireball at Renraku Goon du jour.
> Magician B is watching in astral space. She sees the spell form around
> Magician A and grounds through it, because she is acting as fast as
> she thinks in the astral plane while Magician B is "stuck in the flesh".

Nope. When B sees the spell form around A, A is in the final stages
of casting. B starts casting to ground...Oops, too late. Doesn't matter
how fast B is, it still takes a complex action to cast. By the time she's
ready to cast, A's spell has already hit the target.

> So you say a wolf and a cat are exactly the same only because both eat
> raw meat ?? The mage cooks/fries/whatevers his meat before eating
> (casting spells) it - maybe you get the drift now.

No, you didn't answer the question. What's the difference between a
spell/spirit/weapon/power focus and a manaball/powerbolt/sleep/fireball?

--Craig
Message no. 120
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:40:02 -0400
On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> no. Unfortunately we are turning in circles at the moment (at least
> that's the way how I feel).

Yep.

> B.) The Sourcebook says that spells CANNOT create a neccessary link to
> ground through. They do not say WHICH spells aren't valid or if some
> spells are valid, so we have to assume that ALL spells aren't valid
> for grounding.

No it doesn't! It say's the ACT OF SPELLCASTING cannot create a
necessary link, NOT the spell itself. I've been saying this from
the beginning.

> If you say "I think it makes sense if you could ground through them"
> you are free to change the rules accordingly, but at the moment the
> rules say no.

*sigh* The rules don't say either way, as you've just said yourself.

> through sustained spells' exactly" arguments. The sourcebook doesn't
> say "You may not transform into a huge tree and hop around singing the
> Marsellaise", too, but noone claims that it's possible. You get the

Not in SRII. They took out the 'Turn to Tree' spell. :)

--Craig
Message no. 121
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:14:44 +0100
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:14:41 +0100 (MET)

> Read again. You have to _intercept_ the spell _before_ you can begin melee.
> Intercepting is relatively easy because you can move extremely fast in
> astral space. And even at that rate, you _still_ have to have a delayed
> action to stop the spell. How can you have time to get a spell off?

But you don't have to move to cast a spell, so why do you claim a
"MOVE+COMPLEX ACTION" be possible, but a "COMPLEX ACTION" is
impossible in your eyes... why ? It doesn't matter that you're fast in
astral space, moving always takes longer than not moving.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 122
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:23:15 +0100
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:23:12 +0100 (MET)

> Nope. When B sees the spell form around A, A is in the final stages
> of casting. B starts casting to ground...Oops, too late. Doesn't matter
> how fast B is, it still takes a complex action to cast. By the time she's
> ready to cast, A's spell has already hit the target.

Nope. You notice that the guy is casting a spell from thr first moment
of the casting - you are waiting for it and I'm sure you can assense
the change in the aura. As you told us so often: you're so fast in the
astral plane you could easily fly over and kick the casters ass
several times while he is casting the spell...

> No, you didn't answer the question. What's the difference between a
> spell/spirit/weapon/power focus and a manaball/powerbolt/sleep/fireball?

One is a item and the other is a man-made short-term lifeform. A focus
will work whether the caster concentrates on it or not. A spell will
ONLY work if the caster concentrates on it. So a focus feeds from the
raw astral energy - the "filtering/channeling" of astral energy
happens INSIDE the focus - that's why foci create valid bridges. A
spell needs special energy (depending on the spell). This energy is
fed by the mage. So if the mage makes the drain resistance test he fed
the energy through his inner self, making grounding impossible. If he
somehow found a way of casting it without drain, using raw astral
power, grounding could be possible.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 123
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:31:37 +0100
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:31:34 +0100 (MET)

> > no. Unfortunately we are turning in circles at the moment (at least
> > that's the way how I feel).
> Yep.

So we agree at least on this one... ;-)

> > B.) The Sourcebook says that spells CANNOT create a neccessary link to
> > ground through. They do not say WHICH spells aren't valid or if some
> > spells are valid, so we have to assume that ALL spells aren't valid
> > for grounding.
> No it doesn't! It say's the ACT OF SPELLCASTING cannot create a
> necessary link, NOT the spell itself. I've been saying this from
> the beginning.

See my other posting: The ACT of spellCASTING cannot CREATE a
bridge. This means the act is not the bridge itself - everything that
is created by the action of spellcasting is not a valid bridge. This
means every step of casting the spell INCLUDING sustaining/quickening
does not qualify as a valid bridge. The crucial point is that they
said the "action does not create" - I agree they could have said it
easier, but it's clear how to understand this.

> > If you say "I think it makes sense if you could ground through them"
> > you are free to change the rules accordingly, but at the moment the
> > rules say no.
> *sigh* The rules don't say either way, as you've just said yourself.

Even if that were true. A sourcebook says what's possible ! Just
imagine a sourcebook like "It's impossible to become a little beetle
on the mars, it's impossible to become a big beetle on the
mars...". So only because it doesn't say it's impossible it doesn't
mean it's possible.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 124
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:48:46 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GW" == Gallas William <gallas@**.ec-lyon.fr> writes:

GW> A spell is some magical energy. So the bridge of a sustained one is
GW> the same as the one of a spontaneous spell. If you can't ground a
GW> spell via a spontaneous spell, you can't via a sustained one.

Can you drive over a closed drawbridge? How about when it's open? It's
the same bridge, isn't it?

The reason you cannot ground through a spell being cast is because,
unless the spell is sustained, the bridge is "closed" only for the
briefest instant; it opens and closes faster than anyone not directly
involved in the casting can even dream of doing anything with it. The
bridge with a sustained spell, however, remains "closed" for an
indefinite period of time, infinitely longer than for the casting of an
instant spell.

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--
Rat <ratinox@**s.neu.edu> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ returned to its special container and
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ kept under refrigeration.
Message no. 125
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:51:25 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SP" == Sascha Pabst
>>>>> <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE> writes:

[I'm not going to repeat myself yet again on these previous points]

>> No. When casting a spell, with the exception of damaging manipulations,
>> there are actually two energy conduits in astral space (damaging
>> manipulations only have the first of these conduits). The first one
>> powers the spell; this is the one that you could ground through if it
>> were around long enough. It's not, which is why you can't ground through
>> it. The second is the conduit between the casting mage's aura and the
>> target's aura. This conduit is around for a longer duration than the
>> initial conduit, but still not long enough to ground through. However,
>> it is around long enough for you to attempt to disrupt, if you are
>> astrally projecting and have a ready action in order to do so.

SP> hm... interesting theory. Yours?

No, FASA's. Detailed in the Grimoire II and the Shadowrun rulebook.
The mechanics of spellcasting. It's all in there.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 126
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 15:22:00 EST
>As far as I know it's NOWHERE written that sustained or quickened
>spells generate an exception to rule A. So as long as you don't show
>me where it clearly says that you CAN ground through
>sustained/quickened spells I won't agree that it's possible.
P44 Grim 2
"Quickening is metamagic that can make any sustained spell permanent,
without need for a spell lock! the spell is given a permanent "circuit"
into astral sapce that keeps it running until the spell is broken, either by
astral combat or by an initiate using dispelling ability described below."
I cannot argrue on whether or not one can ground through a sustained spell,
but I can argue that one can ground through a quickened spell because it
creates a permanent "circuit" between the physical plane and the astral plane.
---Sedah Drol
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 127
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 18:04:56 -0400
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> But you don't have to move to cast a spell, so why do you claim a
> "MOVE+COMPLEX ACTION" be possible, but a "COMPLEX ACTION" is
> impossible in your eyes... why ? It doesn't matter that you're fast in
> astral space, moving always takes longer than not moving.

I'm saying that you have time to block the spell's progress and _then_ fight
it, but you don't have time to ready and cast a spell at it as it's forming.

--Craig
Message no. 128
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 18:14:44 -0400
On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> See my other posting: The ACT of spellCASTING cannot CREATE a
> bridge. This means the act is not the bridge itself - everything that
> is created by the action of spellcasting is not a valid bridge. This

We're arguing from different premises. When the the book says that
spellcasting does not create a valid bridge, I take it to mean that,
at the moment the magician casts the spell and opens himself to astral
space, he is not a valid target. I also take it to mean that this has
nothing to do with whether, after that moment, he has a sustained spell
hanging over his head.

--Craig
Message no. 129
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:29:20 +0100
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:29:15 +0100 (MET)

> P44 Grim 2
> "Quickening is metamagic that can make any sustained spell permanent,
> without need for a spell lock! the spell is given a permanent "circuit"
> into astral sapce that keeps it running until the spell is broken, either by
> astral combat or by an initiate using dispelling ability described below."
> I cannot argrue on whether or not one can ground through a sustained spell,
> but I can argue that one can ground through a quickened spell because it
> creates a permanent "circuit" between the physical plane and the astral
plane.
> ---Sedah Drol

Come on - don't play dumb. It really doesn't say you can ground
through it - it only says you can only break it by dispelling or melee
combat, which means even if you would grund through it, it would
continue running, which makes even less sense than grounding through
it.
I want you to show me a part where it says "You can ground through a
sustained/quickened spell" - I don't quote parts of the book where it
says "Guns fire bullets" and claim afterwards: "See - the damage code
HAS to be XYZ".

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 130
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:36:59 +0100
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:36:56 +0100 (MET)

> We're arguing from different premises. When the the book says that
> spellcasting does not create a valid bridge, I take it to mean that,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

Come on - you want to fool me, right ? You try to pretend to be the
third person in the film "dumb, dumber and dumbest", but I don't
believe you. You aren't dumb - so stop trying to "I want to make my
position the only one accepted in the world" and start accepting that
even you could be wrong sometimes. Everyone doesn't like being proven
wrong, but sometimes it's the way it goes. I really liked our
discussion, but I think it's becoming obsolete now. I already told you
that you are free to change the rules as much as you like - so allow
grounding through spells in your game if it makes you happy, but the
"by the books"-rules don't.

Bye...
Georg

P.S. I really didn't want to offend you - if I did, I'm sorry.
Message no. 131
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:18:00 EST
>Come on - don't play dumb. It really doesn't say you can ground
>through it - it only says you can only break it by dispelling or melee
>combat, which means even if you would grund through it, it would
>continue running, which makes even less sense than grounding through
>it.
>I want you to show me a part where it says "You can ground through a
>sustained/quickened spell" - I don't quote parts of the book where it
>says "Guns fire bullets" and claim afterwards: "See - the damage code
>HAS to be XYZ".
Look, in order to ground one must have a bridge between the astral and the
physical world ,p139 sr2, correct?. A quickening creates a permant
"circuit" (in other words a bridge) ,p44 grim2, between the astral and
physical world correct? Therefore one can ground through a quickening. In
case your wondering how I derive a ciruit is equal to a bridge, I shall
define circuit for you. A circuit (in electronics terms) is a connection
between negative and positive poles, in a sense a bridge that allows
electrons and protons to pass to each other's side.
---Sedah Drol
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 132
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:43:08 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 01:43:05 +0100 (MET)

> Look, in order to ground one must have a bridge between the astral and the
> physical world ,p139 sr2, correct?. A quickening creates a permant
> "circuit" (in other words a bridge) ,p44 grim2, between the astral and
> physical world correct? Therefore one can ground through a quickening. In

No - a circuit just means that there is a link between the astral and
the astral which is just fine for keeping the spell running, but it
doesn't help you a bit for grounding.

Only THINGS that have physical COMPONENTS (components that are
existent and tangible even if the magic isn't active) are possible for
grounding.

Bye...
Georg

P.S. So you are one of the people who think that intiation is a
punishment ? If grounding through quickened spells were possible,
spell locks would be TONS better. Grounding through quickenings just
makes no sense at all.

P.P.S. Try to answer my other postings - don't repost the same thing
again and again - it doesn't say "You may ground through a quickened
spell" anywhere, right ? But it DOES say "you can ground through an
ACTIVE focus and an anchored item", right ? Did you ever think about
the reasons why they didn't say you may ground through quickened
spells ? Maybe for the same reason why they didn't say people can jump
200 metres high in the year of 2050...
Message no. 133
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:13:02 +0930
Georg Greve wrote:
> P.S. So you are one of the people who think that intiation is a
> punishment ? If grounding through quickened spells were possible,
> spell locks would be TONS better. Grounding through quickenings just
> makes no sense at all.

Why? You can ground through both, but quickened spells are generally
tougher. And you can still use spell locks, anyway...

The advantage of spell locks is that you can turn them off, removing the
link. The advantage of quickened spells is that you can a) mask them, and
b) not have to pay 50 odd grand for the thing. Oh, and you can make it
tougher, tough enough to make it damn near impossible to ground through.

> P.P.S. Try to answer my other postings - don't repost the same thing
> again and again - it doesn't say "You may ground through a quickened
> spell" anywhere, right ? But it DOES say "you can ground through an
> ACTIVE focus and an anchored item", right ? Did you ever think about
> the reasons why they didn't say you may ground through quickened
> spells ? Maybe for the same reason why they didn't say people can jump
> 200 metres high in the year of 2050...

"Where's my Levitate spell? And where's my reference from the DLoH saying
you can ground through any sustained spell that's got a physical component?
And where's my copy of "Awakenings" which wil finally give us the verdict
in print?"
(I know the answer to the last one, it's not out yet)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 134
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:46:00 EST
>No - a circuit just means that there is a link between the astral and
>the astral which is just fine for keeping the spell running, but it
>doesn't help you a bit for grounding.
What do you mean by a link between the astral and the astral they do not
need to be linked because they are exactly the same thing. Did you mean a
link between the astral and the spell?:)
>Only THINGS that have physical COMPONENTS (components that are
>existent and tangible even if the magic isn't active) are possible for
>grounding.
And a human body is not a physical component? Unfortunately it is. If you
are astrally projecting the quickened spell lights up like a homing beacon
and attached to the spell is a physical object, that can also be seen in the
astral.
>Bye...
> Georg
>
>P.S. So you are one of the people who think that intiation is a
>punishment ?
Actually I think initiation is a wonderful thing.
> If grounding through quickened spells were possible,
>spell locks would be TONS better. Grounding through quickenings just
>makes no sense at all.
They are, they are much cheaper Karma wise. And if you need to walk through
a ward you can turn off your lock walk through and turn it back on again,
unlike a quickening where you have to subdue the ward, and possibly die
trying!:)
>P.P.S. Try to answer my other postings - don't repost the same thing
>again and again -
I didn't repost the same thing I simply made a rebuttle to your statements
and reclarified my statements with further definition.
>it doesn't say "You may ground through a quickened
>spell" anywhere, right ?
I agree (oh no did I just say that:) )it doesn't say that verbatum, but do
you agree with me that one can logically justify grounding through a
quickening, using my arguements.
> But it DOES say "you can ground through an
>ACTIVE focus and an anchored item", right ? Did you ever think about
>the reasons why they didn't say you may ground through quickened
>spells ?
Perhaps because they already said you could ground through a focus and they
felt it would be redundant because the only differece between the two is
that you can deactivate a focus. Both require a physical component be it a
living thing or an inanimate object.
>Maybe for the same reason why they didn't say people can jump
>200 metres high in the year of 2050...
Actually with hydraulic jacks it might be possible:).
---Sedah Drol
p.s.: In response to Tom Dowd not knowing the rules: he created the game
and I think he would know the rules.

p.p.s. I have grown tired of this thread, it is obviously one of those
rules that are left to the GM to interpret (kind of like the entire game
system. Please lets not start that thread again:).) Until FASA puts in
writing.
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 135
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:42:08 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:42:06 +0100 (MET)

> Why? You can ground through both, but quickened spells are generally
> tougher. And you can still use spell locks, anyway...

> The advantage of spell locks is that you can turn them off, removing the
> link. The advantage of quickened spells is that you can a) mask them, and
> b) not have to pay 50 odd grand for the thing. Oh, and you can make it
> tougher, tough enough to make it damn near impossible to ground through.

This is nonsense. You can maska spell lock as well and it is MUCH
easier and you usually find enough spell locks when you win combat
against magical characters.

The ONLY advantage of quickenings was that you couldn't ground through
them, because you didn't use a physical thing to sustain it - you just
used mana.

If you can ground through quickenings the poor mage who got a
quickening will never live longer than 1 month. Just imagine:

Mage A has a force 5 quickened spell and Mage B is attacking him from
astral space.

Mage B slams an exclusive spell into the quickened spell (yes -
grounding through quickenings means attacking a spell with a spell,
but noone else felt disturbed by that) and it grounds through (force 8
against force 5). The grounded spell was nasty, but Mage A took all
his pool to survive the spell. Quickenings cannot be destroyed by
grounding through, so we now roll an initative and the quickened spell
is still active. Mage B shows no mercy and slams the next spell into
Mage A, knocking him out, but Mage A is still alive. The quickening is
still active. So Mage B slams a third spell through the quickening,
finishing off Mage A for all times.

And if you have a force 12 quickening, add these lines to the above:
Mage B attacks the quickened spell until its force is reduced to
something lower than his own spell and slams the spell through it
before the quickening can regenerate. (Remember: They DO regenerate,
but only after they weren't attacked for a round)

If Mage A had taken a spell lock he would still be alive. Of course he
would have eaten the first spell, but then the bonding would have been
broken and the spell lock would have been switched off, turning off
the bridge.
Not even to mention that if he THOUGH there could be someone he could
just turn the spell lock off...

Thinking about it I think NOONE would ever use quickenings if he
wasn't forced to do so, because quickening is more of a weakness than
anything else if you think about it.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 136
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:24:15 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:24:12 +0100 (MET)

> What do you mean by a link between the astral and the astral they do not
> need to be linked because they are exactly the same thing. Did you mean a
> link between the astral and the spell?:)

The spell is fed constant energy - this is what the circuit is
supposed to do. The spell is on the astral plane, so only if the
energy came from the mundane plane, there would be a link.

> >Only THINGS that have physical COMPONENTS (components that are
> >existent and tangible even if the magic isn't active) are possible for
> >grounding.
> And a human body is not a physical component? Unfortunately it is. If you
> are astrally projecting the quickened spell lights up like a homing beacon
> and attached to the spell is a physical object, that can also be seen in the
> astral.

Of course is a human body a physical component - but it is the pysical
component for YOU - not for the spell. A physical component is the
PART of something and cannot be the part of a different thing - so you
have to chose: A.) Your body is YOUR physical component and you are a
human being or B.) Your body is the physcial component of some spell
(this could only be valid for the first spell) and you are a
ghost with 6 hours left to live. The second spell could not have a
physcial component.

By the way: We all agreed the "groundability" for quickened and
sustained spells has to be the same, so please tell me how you think
about the sustained spells.

> >P.S. So you are one of the people who think that intiation is a
> >punishment ?
> Actually I think initiation is a wonderful thing.

So why do you want to kill its advantages, then ?

> > If grounding through quickened spells were possible,
> >spell locks would be TONS better. Grounding through quickenings just
> >makes no sense at all.
> They are, they are much cheaper Karma wise. And if you need to walk through
^^^^^^^^
> a ward you can turn off your lock walk through and turn it back on again,
> unlike a quickening where you have to subdue the ward, and possibly die
> trying!:)

O.K. - so you agree that quickening would be useless in case grounding
were possible. So please tell me WHY DID THEY INVENT IT, then ??

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 137
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:33:05 GMT
First do folks listen ???

much earlier in this 'row?' i noted that the exact reason you are
allowed to pay up to twice a quickened spells force in karma is to
toughen it up against grounding!

Georg Greve writes

>
> This is nonsense. You can maska spell lock as well and it is MUCH
> easier and you usually find enough spell locks when you win combat
> against magical characters.
>
The main reason i changed the rules so spell locks die permanently if
you perm the soul they are on, as you can sell them at 27000 a time,
seriously required to keep the magical loot pile vaguely under
control, when using these things to balance NPC's vs lock using PC's.

Once did a FASA adventure 'by the book' got about 1.5Million in
magical loot!! far more than the run paid.

> The ONLY advantage of quickenings was that you couldn't ground through
> them, because you didn't use a physical thing to sustain it - you just
> used mana.
>
no. There are only 3 actually.
1) they are not foci, so no limit due to INT on how many you can have
active at once.
2) they can be beefed up with enough (try 18, so use masking instead)
to the point you CANNOT ground though them realistically.
3) they don't cost 90000 newyen each (45K * street index 2)

> If you can ground through quickenings the poor mage who got a
> quickening will never live longer than 1 month. Just imagine:
>
well if you want to wander about with unmasked quickening feel free
to tell all and sundry either
1) 'i have something you don't have'
or
2) 'hey look i'm initiate'

cunning move a discreet Shadowrunner ?? i think not!

Mark
Message no. 138
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:45:55 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:45:51 +0100 (MET)

> much earlier in this 'row?' i noted that the exact reason you are
> allowed to pay up to twice a quickened spells force in karma is to
> toughen it up against grounding!

No - it's to toughen it against attacks, because the karma is lost
once the spell is broken, so you may spend more karma to make
dispelling/attacks more diffcult.

> no. There are only 3 actually.
> 1) they are not foci, so no limit due to INT on how many you can have
> active at once.

Yeah - this is true, but you can always use multi-locks.

> 2) they can be beefed up with enough (try 18, so use masking instead)
> to the point you CANNOT ground though them realistically.

Tell me how you want to mask THAT one or SEVERAL of that force... I
think it's MUCH easier to mask some spell locks - and if you are a
grade 18 initiate you don't have to worry about anyone else, I
think...

> 3) they don't cost 90000 newyen each (45K * street index 2)

No they cost tons of karma and I prefer paying nuyen instead of karma,
because karma is MUCH more valuable for a mage/shaman.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 139
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:57:00 -0400
On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> Come on - you want to fool me, right ? You try to pretend to be the
> third person in the film "dumb, dumber and dumbest", but I don't

Excuse me?!?! I merely pointed out that the reason we disagree is
that we interpreted a single sentence in the rules differently.

> believe you. You aren't dumb - so stop trying to "I want to make my
> position the only one accepted in the world" and start accepting that
> even you could be wrong sometimes. Everyone doesn't like being proven

Er.....I hope you realize the same.

> wrong, but sometimes it's the way it goes. I really liked our
> discussion, but I think it's becoming obsolete now. I already told you

Yes, it's been civil up to this point and I don't want it to turn into
a flame war.

> that you are free to change the rules as much as you like - so allow
> grounding through spells in your game if it makes you happy, but the
> "by the books"-rules don't.

Well, I think you're wrong, but you already knew that. :) End of
discussion.

> P.S. I really didn't want to offend you - if I did, I'm sorry.

No, it was kind of fun. You don't often have major disagreements on
the net without name calling. Rather refreshing, I felt.

--Craig
Message no. 140
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:30:51 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GG" == Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes:

GG> No - a circuit just means that there is a link between the astral
GG> and the astral which is just fine for keeping the spell running, but
GG> it doesn't help you a bit for grounding.

If there is not link from astral space to the spell in the physical
world, where the hell is the spell getting the energy to maintain itself?

GG> Only THINGS that have physical COMPONENTS (components that are
GG> existent and tangible even if the magic isn't active) are possible
GG> for grounding.

See my previous comments about how active spell lock foci are
noncorporeal even though they are the physical presence of the energy
conduit for a locked spell.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
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Message no. 141
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:43:54 GMT
> From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
>
> > 2) they can be beefed up with enough (try 18, so use masking instead)
> > to the point you CANNOT ground though them realistically.
>
> Tell me how you want to mask THAT one or SEVERAL of that force... I
> think it's MUCH easier to mask some spell locks - and if you are a
> grade 18 initiate you don't have to worry about anyone else, I
> think...
>
I was not suggesting you try and mask them. It's either that sort of
rating or use masking.
My prefered solution is therefore to use spell locks for anytjing you
want at more than force 1 and quickeming for the +4 attribute spells,
where force 1 is just fine as you need only 1 success and can throw
piles of magic pool at the problem [followed by a night in bed for
the M or S drain that may result.]

> > 3) they don't cost 90000 newyen each (45K * street index 2)
>
> No they cost tons of karma and I prefer paying nuyen instead of karma,
> because karma is MUCH more valuable for a mage/shaman.
>
see above, use locks for the high force stuff, quickening for for
one's to save those limited number of foci for the stuff where it
saves karma.

Note you don't need to play tactical with this lot much as you do
need to be rather like an astral Christmas tree or rather high grade
for it to matter.

Mark
Message no. 142
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:11:52 -0500
>The advantage of spell locks is that you can turn them off, removing the
>link. The advantage of quickened spells is that you can a) mask them, and

Waitaminit.. I was under the impression that metamagic could not work on
other metamagic (eg, masking & quickening) I'll look it up to know
for sure, but am I wrong?

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3, Terms) |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 143
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 01:59:00 EST
>By the way: We all agreed the "groundability" for quickened and
>sustained spells has to be the same, so please tell me how you think
>about the sustained spells.
I would have to say that you could ground through a sustained spell for the
same reason one can ground through a quickening.
>> >P.S. So you are one of the people who think that intiation is a
>> >punishment ?
>> Actually I think initiation is a wonderful thing.
>
>So why do you want to kill its advantages, then ?
I'm not killing it's advantages, I am just pointing out faults. Initiations
advantages are greater than it's faults
>
>O.K. - so you agree that quickening would be useless in case grounding
>were possible. So please tell me WHY DID THEY INVENT IT, then ??
I can't answer that question, perhaps they wanted to confuse the hell out of
us all, but that's another thread entirely.
I ask you to consider this. If grounding through a quickening were
possible, it would balance the game.

If it weren't possible you could create a Harlequin type character (note: I
am just using Harlequin=god type concept). For example I want to quicken a
physical invisibility spell that affects all senses and of course electronic
equipment. Let's say I quickened the spell I got enough successes toward
the effect of spell so it will take a target number of 30 to even see me (I
currently have character that has this spell on a spell lock and it takes a
20 to see him). The invisibilty spell has a disadvantage that they use
(other game systems have this disadvantage also): if a character makes an
aggressive action toward another the spell stops working, in sr terms the
spell would drop the mage would have to reactivate/recast the spell. Since
a quickening is permanent and according to the books the only way to destroy
a quickening is by dispelling or astral combat. Therefore, if the above
spell were quickened you would have character that could never be seen in
the mundane world and take aggressive actions without being seen. Why stop
there lets quicken mana and physical barriers and have and invisble
character that can not be harmed (you could do this easily if one had enough
Karma.
---Sedah Drol
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 144
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 01:59:00 EST
>Yeah - this is true, but you can always use multi-locks.
Georg, what are multilocks? What book are they in? Just curious:).
---Sedah Drol
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 145
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:49:33 +0930
Victor Rodriguez, Jr wrote:
>
> >Yeah - this is true, but you can always use multi-locks.
> Georg, what are multilocks? What book are they in? Just curious:).

A stacked focus, where the foci are all spelllocks.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 146
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 16:07:40 MET
> >Only THINGS that have physical COMPONENTS (components that are
> >existent and tangible even if the magic isn't active) are possible for
> >grounding.
> And a human body is not a physical component? Unfortunately it is. If you
> are astrally projecting the quickened spell lights up like a homing beacon
> and attached to the spell is a physical object, that can also be seen in the
> astral.

If so, why aren't you able to ground a spell on the aura of someone.
It's clearly linked to your body. I think there are a lot of things linked to
your body but this one is not sufficient to ground through (including all spells
without physical foci on which they are linked).

-Cobra.
Message no. 147
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 13:08:07 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "GW" == Gallas William <gallas@**.ec-lyon.fr> writes:

GW> If so, why aren't you able to ground a spell on the aura of someone.

Because a person's aura isn't normally a dual-natured entity. Just
because something is perceivable in the (relative) other world doesn't
mean it's actually present there. An astrally projecting mage may become
visible and audible in the physical world, but they have no physical
presence there at that time.

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Message no. 148
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 06:44:01 +0100
Craig wrote:
> Before you can attack the spell, you have to intercept it. This means
> you fly over and stick your (astral) body in the way. This is easy and
> quick, which is why you can get away with it. Also note that if you
> intercept the spell, you resolve the combat with the spell first before
> determining the spell's effect on the target. In effect, the astral combat
> happens instantaneously, so, no, you can't ground through the spell
^^^^^^^^ I doubt it...
> while someone is fighting it.

When astral combat happens instantaneously, (is that really written this way?
tsk...) then why is astral combat done along normal, "physical" combat? With
Initiatives and all?
And if you say a few meters in astral space are covered within (nearly) null
time, I'd agree. But each and any spell will have the same speed (hm... maybe
that's why some of them are called "Instant Spells"? (Oh, thats: SRII, p.128,
just to keep my old habbit :-)). So it would NOT matter wether you intercept
the spell with your astral body or with a spell... (or both???), it will take
the same (nearly no) time.

Now when my spell can reach the other (both being instant spells), as you have
just proven (*grin*), you could ground through an instant spell, too.
SRII p. 139: "Spellcasting is not one of them." (I wouldn't have been happy
w/out that quote :-)

Following your, err, my argumentation, time is not the crucial point why
spellcasting (and following this, spells of any duration) doesn't qualify
as potential grounding target.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 149
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 06:53:04 +0100
Gary C. wrote:
> The karma bonds a physical connection to the astral space.
> Foci are the same only the spell connects to the foci and
> you bond (*a connection*) to the foci/lock.
Grimoire, p. 44: "The spell is given a permanent 'circuit' into astral
space that keeps [...]" Which means it is NOT locked to physical space
since i would have been noted somewhere (Grimythingy pp 44-45 I think! :-)

And to the rulings of DLoH: Well, his statement may give the discussion a
base of rules. But (again I repeat) I asked for reasons from the rules
(you see, these books we payed mucho dinero for at our gameshop just to
hae a coloured cover and the FASA-stamp on it). Not for house rules,
not even for "common sense" (which maybe isn't that commeon after all... :-)
And the rules strongly direct the other way, IMHand_quote_provenO.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some |
| die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to |
| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 150
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 12:22:42 MET
>The Digital Mage:
>Well, I swore I wouldn't get involved in this debate, but I thought I'd
>put my opinion into the mix.
>
>My personal feeling is that sustained spells and quickenings should not
>be usable for grounding.
>(...)
>But as always the gm is free to change the rules as he pleases and no way
>is more correct, as in some circumstances it may well be advisable to
>allow grounding through quicknenings so as to prevent that Initited Mage
>player going overboard and becoming a munchkin.
>
>Just my thought :)

That's it.

-Cobra.
Message no. 151
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 17:17:00 EST
>Grimoire, p. 44: "The spell is given a permanent 'circuit' into astral
>space that keeps [...]" Which means it is NOT locked to physical space
>since i would have been noted somewhere (Grimythingy pp 44-45 I think! :-)
If the spell was only locked to astral space and had no link to the physical
space, than it could not affect the physical world. This would then mean
that a mage cannot quicken a spell to himself but only to the astral, but we
all know the opposite is true. In order for a spell to affect the physcical
world there most be a link between the astral and physical world
In your quote you forgot to mention what comes after "keeps":" it running
until it is broken..." then it goes on with examples of how it can be broken.
those words you forgot change the meaning of the sentence. The point that
the sentence is trying to make is that the spell, in a way, is being
supplied by the astral plane with enough energy to sustain the spell so the
mage doesn't have to concentrate on it, thus in a sense making it permanent.
---Sedah Drol
--
I know where my towel is, do you?
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 152
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 16:55:22 -0400
On Sat, 14 Oct 1995, Sascha Pabst wrote:

> When astral combat happens instantaneously, (is that really written this way?
> tsk...) then why is astral combat done along normal, "physical" combat?
With
> Initiatives and all?

I'm pretty sure you resolve the combat with the spell first before anything
else happens. I could be wrong on this.

> And if you say a few meters in astral space are covered within (nearly) null
> time, I'd agree. But each and any spell will have the same speed (hm... maybe
> that's why some of them are called "Instant Spells"? (Oh, thats: SRII,
p.128,
> just to keep my old habbit :-)). So it would NOT matter wether you intercept
> the spell with your astral body or with a spell... (or both???), it will take
> the same (nearly no) time.

Of course the spell could get there in time. The point is, when you, the
astral observer, see the spell fly away from the casting mage to the
target, it's too late for you to get your own spell off.

--Craig
Message no. 153
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 11:39:09 -0400
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>>>>> "CSD" == Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
writes:

CSD> I'm pretty sure you resolve the combat with the spell first before
CSD> anything else happens. I could be wrong on this.

You do, but for the reasons of expedience, to make things a little bit
easier for the GM. Otherwise, what's the point of initiative counts?

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
Message no. 154
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:44:28 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:44:25 +0100 (MET)

> Waitaminit.. I was under the impression that metamagic could not work on
> other metamagic (eg, masking & quickening) I'll look it up to know
> for sure, but am I wrong?

Possible but I'm not sure on that one, please tell us where you found
it IF you found it...

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 155
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:43:23 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:43:20 +0100 (MET)

> I was not suggesting you try and mask them. It's either that sort of
> rating or use masking.

Hmmm... and this wouldn't be like shouting "HEY ! I`M INITIATE !!" in
your eyes ??? *shrug*

> My prefered solution is therefore to use spell locks for anytjing you
> want at more than force 1 and quickeming for the +4 attribute spells,
> where force 1 is just fine as you need only 1 success and can throw
> piles of magic pool at the problem [followed by a night in bed for
> the M or S drain that may result.]

Piles of pool ? For force 1 you may only use 1 dice more - but why
should I use quickening on that one ? I cannot deactivate it when
needed... for low- and med-force spells (up to 6) you should ALWAYS
use a spell lock. Even for high-force spells it's recommended if
grounding through spells is considered possible.

By the way: I would like to hear what happens to quickened spells
whenever you pass a ward - do you have any possibilities to avoid this
"you break the quickening or tell the mages that you are here by
destroying the ward" situation ??? Even if quickenings are masked,
they still EXIST, which means they have to fight it out usually.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 156
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 17:57:04 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 17:57:01 +0100 (MET)

> If there is not link from astral space to the spell in the physical
> world, where the hell is the spell getting the energy to maintain itself?

The spell is on the astral plane where it belongs and that's where its
energy comes from.

GG> Only THINGS that have physical COMPONENTS (components that are
GG> existent and tangible even if the magic isn't active) are possible
GG> for grounding.
See my previous comments about how active spell lock foci are
noncorporeal even though they are the physical presence of the energy
conduit for a locked spell.

Spell Locks aren noncorporeal - they only become noncorporeal when
activated which is a special power of this special kind of focus but
they are well tangible and corporeal when deactivated. Show me the
physical components of a deactivated spell.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 157
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:04:23 +0100
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:04:20 +0100 (MET)

> Excuse me?!?! I merely pointed out that the reason we disagree is
> that we interpreted a single sentence in the rules differently.

The main point is that you didn't seem to be willing to be precise
with the words that were used. Creation means building up, so if you
just exchange the words the questionable sentence says "Spellcasting
can never build up a bridge" - if you just turn it around (that is no
twisted logic) it says: "No bridge can be the result of
spellcasting". So if you want a spell to be a bridge it could
(theoretically) only be a spell that wasn't cast - and this is what
the rule says...

> Well, I think you're wrong, but you already knew that. :) End of
> discussion.

And I think you are wrong - but I guess you already thought of that,
too. ;-)))

> No, it was kind of fun. You don't often have major disagreements on
> the net without name calling. Rather refreshing, I felt.

Yeah - I like discussions, too. So I think we had a rather good
discussion - you cannot prove your line of sight and you don't accept
my proof, so maybe we should settle down to the old: "Do it as you
like" rule...

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 158
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:47:05 +0100
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:47:01 +0100 (MET)

> >O.K. - so you agree that quickening would be useless in case grounding
> >were possible. So please tell me WHY DID THEY INVENT IT, then ??
> I can't answer that question, perhaps they wanted to confuse the hell out of
> us all, but that's another thread entirely.

Come on - you can't be serious on this one...

> I ask you to consider this. If grounding through a quickening were
> possible, it would balance the game.

No - I don't agree with you. If it were possible to ground through
quickened/sustained spells it would imbalance the system BADLY.

> If it weren't possible you could create a Harlequin type character (note: I
> am just using Harlequin=god type concept). For example I want to quicken a
> physical invisibility spell that affects all senses and of course electronic
> equipment. Let's say I quickened the spell I got enough successes toward
> the effect of spell so it will take a target number of 30 to even see me (I
> currently have character that has this spell on a spell lock and it takes a
> 20 to see him). The invisibilty spell has a disadvantage that they use
> (other game systems have this disadvantage also): if a character makes an
> aggressive action toward another the spell stops working, in sr terms the
> spell would drop the mage would have to reactivate/recast the spell. Since
> a quickening is permanent and according to the books the only way to destroy
> a quickening is by dispelling or astral combat. Therefore, if the above
> spell were quickened you would have character that could never be seen in
> the mundane world and take aggressive actions without being seen. Why stop

Wait a second. Why should a sustained invisibility or a invisibility
on a spell lock lose its effect ? I've never seen something like that
in the books. And a character with a quickened invisibility would
still be visible if you use IR, UV, Ultrasound or Astral Perception. I
really don't see what this has to with grounding through quickenings
because you need a mage to destroy the quickened spell anyway. So why
not attack it ? It won't be destroyed by grounding through, so what's
the big advantage ???

> there lets quicken mana and physical barriers and have and invisble
> character that can not be harmed (you could do this easily if one had enough
> Karma.
> ---Sedah Drol

What you got then is a character that has 24 hours left to live,
because he cannot eat, he cannot drink, he cannot touch things,
because they don't get through his barrier and he cannot socially
interact (ever imagined what happens if you go through the crowd in a
bar with a barrier spell ?). The disadvantage of not being able to
disengage quickened spells makes up for the advantage that you cannot
ground through quickened spells. This is what balanced means. The
above examples would only be problematic if you play in the worst of
all roll-play groups...

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 159
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:09:28 +0100
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 20:09:25 +0100 (MET)

> Because a person's aura isn't normally a dual-natured entity. Just
> because something is perceivable in the (relative) other world doesn't
> mean it's actually present there. An astrally projecting mage may become
> visible and audible in the physical world, but they have no physical
> presence there at that time.

A spell isn't a dual-natured entitiy, either. If you say grounding
through spells is possible you have to say that grounding into
"normal" auras is possible, too.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 160
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 21:34:18 +0100
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 21:34:15 +0100 (MET)

> >Grimoire, p. 44: "The spell is given a permanent 'circuit' into astral
> >space that keeps [...]" Which means it is NOT locked to physical space
> >since i would have been noted somewhere (Grimythingy pp 44-45 I think! :-)
> If the spell was only locked to astral space and had no link to the physical
> space, than it could not affect the physical world. This would then mean
> that a mage cannot quicken a spell to himself but only to the astral, but we
> all know the opposite is true. In order for a spell to affect the physcical
> world there most be a link between the astral and physical world

A spell can affect the physical world without having a real physical
presence/compontent, which would be neccessary for grounding
through. That's the special thing about spells. If they HAD a real
physical presence they would be called "spirits" with special powers
(the thing you want the spell to do).

> In your quote you forgot to mention what comes after "keeps":" it
running
> until it is broken..." then it goes on with examples of how it can be broken.
> those words you forgot change the meaning of the sentence. The point that
> the sentence is trying to make is that the spell, in a way, is being
> supplied by the astral plane with enough energy to sustain the spell so the
> mage doesn't have to concentrate on it, thus in a sense making it permanent.
Exactly. This means that it cannot be broken by grounding through it
(if it were possible) which would result in a permanent bridge which
stays whatever you channel through it - which doesn't make ANY sense
when you take a look at the process of grounding through. Grounding
through is a VIOLENT process which SHOULD destroy the bridge, but
quickenings cannot be destroyed by grounding through - this implies
that grounding through quickenings makes no sense, huh ?

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 161
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.GOV>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells -Reply
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:23:55 -0400
>>> Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
10/12/95 01:43pm >>>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:43:20 +0100 (MET)

> My prefered solution is therefore to use spell locks
for anytjing you
> want at more than force 1 and quickeming for the +4
attribute spells,
> where force 1 is just fine as you need only 1
success and can throw
> piles of magic pool at the problem [followed by a
night in bed for
> the M or S drain that may result.]

Piles of pool ? For force 1 you may only use 1 dice
more - but why should I use quickening on that one ? I
cannot deactivate it when needed... for low- and
med-force spells (up to 6) you should ALWAYS use a
spell lock. Even for high-force spells it's
recommended if grounding through spells is
considered possible.

<<<<<<<<<<<

A) You can use up to your Magic Rating in dice from
your Magic Pool to augment MOST Spell castings (I
say most because I'm sure there are some you can't
but I don't know them) :)


>>> Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.hanse.de>
10/12/95 01:43pm >>>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 18:43:20 +0100 (MET)

By the way: I would like to hear what happens to
quickened spells whenever you pass a ward - do you
have any possibilities to avoid this
"you break the quickening or tell the mages that you
are here by destroying the ward" situation ??? Even if
quickenings are masked, they still EXIST, which
means they have to fight it out usually.

Bye...
Georg
<<<<<<<<<<<

I Just finished a run with something similar to this. I
had a PA with bullet barrier 4 quickened to him with +4
Karma spent on it as well. Unfortunatly he had to run
up and down some stairwells that had simple wards
drawn across each floor. He had to go through the
elevator shaft to prevent triggering them. (Then of
course the Mage with a spell lock of Increased
reflexes 3, and 2 sustained spells went running down
the stairs... Blew out the spell lock passing through
the barrier. I rolled for 1 die for each to see which one
rolled better against TN2s. The Ward won, but the
sustained spell took it out since it was a force 6 treat
spell.
Just my experience with running quickened spells.

Jriordan@***.gov
Message no. 162
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:32:27 MET
>Georg:
>But in his books he shows that he has no clue about the rules, so
>asking him in a rules question is pretty silly.
>
>> The magical energy conduit, the one that powers the spell in the first
>> place, is just such a bridge, if it is in existance for a sufficient
>> duration. To reiterate myself, it is a dual-natured entity: it has an
>> astral presence, the "inlet" for energy to flow into; it has a physical
>> presence, the "outlet" for energy to flow out of into the mage casting
>
>This is wrong. The energy doesn't flow neccessarily into the mage. It
>can flow anywhere or nowhere. All that's sure is that the spell exists
>in the astral plane.
>
>> the spell. Since it has both a physical presence and an astral presence,
>> it is a dual-natured entity. Since it is a dual-natured entity it may be
>
>Dual-natured entities have to be TANGIBLE and TOUCHABLE - and don't
>tell this "the mage is the tangible component" crap, he's a mage and
>not a spell. If spells were dual natured, every mundane could TOUCH
>them and even DESTROY them in HTH.
>
>> possible to ground through it. When casting an instant spell it does not
>> exist long enough to target; but when sustaining or quickening a spell
>> it does. Therefore this conduit may be grounded through if it is
>> attached to a sustained or quickened spell.
>
>By the way - it doesn't say "Spellcasting con never create a bridge
>for the first 2 seconds" or something the like, it says "Spellcasting
>can never CREATE a bridge". This is as clear as it gets, because it
>says: "Whatever was created by spellcasting cannot be a bridge".


Okay, it's time to end this discussion!
My eyes are full of tears but I've found something in the rules about grounding
through quickened (I already ear laughs of Craig :(
So, I will resume the different points with some advantages/disadvantages:

It is impossible to ground through a spell, be it sustained or not.
Advantage: No karma spend.
Disadvantage: +2 T.N. and cannot be sustained during astral projection.
*cf SRII*

You can ground through a spell lock (and any other foci).
Advantage: Can be switched on/off. Only costs 1 karma point.
Disadvantage: Spell lock as force 1 to resist grounding. It counts as an
toward the maximum number of foci (equal to Intelligence). You count its force
(one in the case of a spell lock) for the maximum number of levels being masked
(equal to the initiation grade in my memories).
*cf SRII*

You can ground through a quickened spell.
Advantage: Can a force of more than 1 toward grounding. It doesn't count
for the maximum number of foci. And see below.
Disadvantage: Costs much more karma (at minimum equal to the spell force).
It is always active.
*cf Corporate Security p.36 (I'm not quite sure of the page)*

I think the force doesn't count for the maximum number of levels being masked
because it is a part of the aura (see in Aztlan sourcebook. I don't remember the
page but in my memory, it was in the religious part, in the description of the
guards of the temples). So the mage only has to mask his aura to mask them.

You can see that advantages of spell locks counter the disadvantages of the
quickened spells as the opposite is true. So you choose one or an other as you
prefer. I'm not quite sure about the last thing but it is really good for the
quickened spells to be usefuls.

For Sascha and Georg: I'm sure we'll win the next time !! (HUMOR) :)

-Cobra.
Message no. 163
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:27:50 -0400
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> > If there is not link from astral space to the spell in the physical
> > world, where the hell is the spell getting the energy to maintain itself?
>
> The spell is on the astral plane where it belongs and that's where its
> energy comes from.

*sigh* Then how does the energy get to the physical plane to do its
work?

> Spell Locks aren noncorporeal - they only become noncorporeal when
> activated which is a special power of this special kind of focus but
> they are well tangible and corporeal when deactivated. Show me the
> physical components of a deactivated spell.

Um....right. I don't get this. Spell locks are non-corporeal when
they're activated, which is the only time you can ground through them.
If they're deactivated (and corporeal), you can't ground. Again, what's
the difference between this and a sustained spell?

--Craig
Message no. 164
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:36:26 -0400
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> The main point is that you didn't seem to be willing to be precise
> with the words that were used. Creation means building up, so if you
> just exchange the words the questionable sentence says "Spellcasting
> can never build up a bridge"

Yes, but the sentence DOESN'T SAY THAT. I don't know how else I can
say it. Re-read the entire paragraph, including the sentence after
the infamous "Spellcasting is not one of them". The ONLY thing it
implies is that a physical magician, during the spellcasting action,
when he is briefly connected to astral space, is safe from a magician
in astral space, and the astral magician is safe from him. It says
NOTHING about using a sustained spell to ground.

> Yeah - I like discussions, too. So I think we had a rather good
> discussion - you cannot prove your line of sight and you don't accept
> my proof, so maybe we should settle down to the old: "Do it as you
> like" rule...

Yeah, but now we can do it all again on rec.games.frp.cyber. :)

--Craig
Message no. 165
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.GOV>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells -Reply
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:17:47 -0400
>>> Craig S Dohmen
<dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU> 10/23/95
10:27am >>>
On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:


*sigh* Then how does the energy get to the physical
plane to do its work?

<<<<<<<<<<<<<

{SNIP}

Reread the section on spells and Astral Space.
Page 149. 2nd column 4th paragraph.
" Back in astral space, the spell has bridged the
distance and struck the target. What happens next is
that the spell grounds out into the target through the
targets _AURA_. This is because of the previously
stated rule that things in astral space cannot directly
affect non-magical things in the real world, _unless
there is a bridge_. The bridge, in this case, is
momentarily created by the spell caster when the
auras involved are synchronized."
(note: the _AURA_ emphasis is mine the other
emphasis is FASAs text in italics)

Using the above paragraph the first two sentances
explain how the spell affects the target WITHOUT
entering real space. read paragrpah 3 on the same
page and column and FASA even describes that there
is little if any visable effect in the physical plane
unless it is appropriate for the spell and even then it's
only on the target end not the mage's end.
I included the rest of that part to show that you how
conflicting FASA is when they talk about magic. You
can interpret the last bit of the quote to imply that you
_Can_ ground through a cast spell because it _does_
create a bridge but earlier they say that you can't
ground through a mage who is casting a spell.
I personally tend to take a conservative view that
unless the books say you can do it you can't.
Besides it's easy enough to make PCs life hell with
spells that are always active...
(yes mr. shaman you're force 6 city spirit conceals
you very well against your enemies. I'm sorry you
can't seem to get the attention of your teammates to
warn them about the M1A1 tank waiting for them
around the corner.)


Jriordan@***.gov
Message no. 166
From: The Kumquat <LAYBROWNJT@***.CUIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:18:15 -0500
In response to Georg Greve's comments that Tom Dowd knows nothing about
the rules in Shadowrun: I have to agree with Terry Amburgey on this one, you
have NO idea what the flying frag you are talking about. As has been stated by
listmembers, FASA representatives, and just about everyone who plays Shadowrun
and possesses a minimal amount of mental power, SR NOVELS HAVE NOTHING TO DO
WITH THE RULES. Shadowrun novels are just that, novels. Not Campaigns, not
technical references, but stories. Tom admitted to me that all of the novels
do things that break the rules in one way or another, but that's called
artistic liscence, if you wish to nit-pick and whine, fine. If you wish to make
a point, then do so, but you haven't yet. The fact still remains that Tom Dowd
works for FASA, writing sourcebooks and RULES, while you do not. Jordan
Weisman and Paul Hume directed me to Tom for rules questions, and I think that
the founder of FASA and the co-creators of Shadowrun probably know who knows
the rules and who doesn't. I wasn't told "Well, no one who writes the rules
actually KNOWS them, but you should really ask some guy over in Germany about
it." You have made otherwise intelligent arguments about a pointless question
that will most likely be spelled out in Awakenings anyway, but I fail to see
why I should believe your claim that you know the rules better than someone who
helped write them in the first place. <turns his flame-thrower off>

Sorry about all that, but attacking Tom was just plain silly.

Just My Two Pence.
The Kumquat.

Support Whirled Peas.
Message no. 167
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:47:28 +0100
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:47:25 +0100 (MET)

This discussion is going on in "rec.games.frp.cyber" AND the
Mailinglist now - I really don't like that, let's keep it to one
place, please, otherwise you spend the whole day looking for the
messages of the others. I would suggest we use "rec.games.frp.cyber"
for this because there we got more people discussing.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 168
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:40:34 +0100
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:40:31 +0100 (MET)

Cobra wrote:

> It is impossible to ground through a spell, be it sustained or not.
> ...
> You can ground through a quickened spell.

This is absolutely new. If you can ground through a quickened spell
you can ground through a sustained spell as well - this was the only
point we all agreed about.
A sustained spell has (theoretically/logically thinking) even one
connection more to the mundane plane - but all connections a spell has
to the mundane plane are not valid for grounding through, that was the
opinion I had and have. You didn't post anything new to the
discussion, you just sat yourself in the middle of all positions and
claimed - "This is the right opinion" without even trying to tell us
WHY you think this should be the right opinion.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 169
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:45:19 +0100
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:45:16 +0100 (MET)

> Um....right. I don't get this. Spell locks are non-corporeal when
> they're activated, which is the only time you can ground through them.
> If they're deactivated (and corporeal), you can't ground. Again, what's
> the difference between this and a sustained spell?

The difference is simple. One can be turned on and off without taking
drain all the time and there is no penalty for TN's - this has the
disadvantage that grounding through is possible, because you use an
item for this. The other has to be cast again every time but it has
the big advantage that it isn't as dangerous, because you cannot
ground through. Quickening fall somewhere in the middle. You pay lot
of karma for not having the TN-modifier, but you still have the
advantage of being "grounding-proof", because there is no item it is
attached to. This of course has the HUGE disadvantage that it cannot be
turned off.

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 170
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:37:48 -0400
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> The difference is simple. One can be turned on and off without taking

[...]

I understand all that. The question I'm asking is: If you can ground
through a non-corporeal spell lock, why can't you ground through a
non-corporeal sustained spell?

Incidentally, I may be slow getting back to the discussion on
rec.game.frp.cyber as the news server keeps giving "out of space"
errors. *sigh*

--Craig
Message no. 171
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:31:31 +0000
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, The Kumquat wrote:

> artistic liscence, if you wish to nit-pick and whine, fine. If you wish to
> make a point, then do so, but you haven't yet.
I believe the point he was wishing to state is that an unpublished
*opinion* from Tom Dowd couldn't be taken as read due to past
inconsistencies between Tom's novels and the rules. Now if Mr Dowd has
admitted he 'broke' the rules when he wrote that -and he knew at the time
that he was doing so, then okay it does give support to Mr Dowd's opinion
-in your favour.

However it is still an opinion -it hasn't been put down in black and
white yet. Check out the post I forwarded from rec.games.frp.cyber, the
guy there (I gather he wrote Awakenings) states that his opinion is just
that, an opinion.

> You have made otherwise intelligent arguments about a pointless question
> that will most likely be spelled out in Awakenings anyway,
I'm afraid they won't by the sound of it -but if they were they probably
would have agreed with Georg.

> but I fail to see why I should believe your claim that you know the
> rules better than someone who helped write them in the first place.
But some of the rule writers *do* make mistakes, I state again the
example of a Watcher being asked to manifest *physically* in the corp sec
book. By the way the corp sec book is not a novel and as such should not
be influenced by artitic licence, as even though the error occured in a
story, the story was being used as an example of how the rules and gear
work.

> Sorry about all that, but attacking Tom was just plain silly.
Admittedly some of the remarks may have been phrased a little harshly
-especially as you seem to know the man in question- but Georg was trying
to make a point, and I don't believe he was deserving of a flame -polite
though it may have been :)

Bye!


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk

<Who remembers a time when he swore he
wouldn't get involved in this debate!>
Message no. 172
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 18:33:23 +0000
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Craig S Dohmen wrote:

> > The main point is that you didn't seem to be willing to be precise
> > with the words that were used. Creation means building up, so if you
> > just exchange the words the questionable sentence says "Spellcasting
> > can never build up a bridge"
>
> Yes, but the sentence DOESN'T SAY THAT. I don't know how else I can
> say it. Re-read the entire paragraph, including the sentence after
> the infamous "Spellcasting is not one of them". The ONLY thing it
> implies is that a physical magician, during the spellcasting action,
> when he is briefly connected to astral space, is safe from a magician
> in astral space, and the astral magician is safe from him. It says
> NOTHING about using a sustained spell to ground.
I have to agree that I read it as Craig does, mind you thats not to say I
agree with him regarding grounding through sustained spells, I don't! :)

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 173
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:58:37 -0400
On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, The Digital Mage wrote:

> guy there (I gather he wrote Awakenings) states that his opinion is just
> that, an opinion.

He changed his mind, then. That creep. :)

--Craig
Message no. 174
From: Guy Swartwood <gswartwo@*********.WICHITAKS.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:13:00 PDT
Georg wrote>>>
>This discussion is going on in "rec.games.frp.cyber" AND the
>Mailinglist now - I really don't like that, let's keep it to one
>place, please, otherwise you spend the whole day looking for the
>messages of the others. I would suggest we use "rec.games.frp.cyber"
>for this because there we got more people discussing.

I wish you wouldn't transfer types of discussion to one place or another.

Some of us don't read rec.games.frp.cyber. I don't read it because I don't
care about CP or other cyberpunk games there. I also feel that this list
serv (usually) has more mature people in it, so I enjoy reading this
mailing. If the discussion has do with SR, then why should it be asked to
be moved into a newsgroup that doesn't specifically talk about SR?

Guy Swartwood corporate decker by day, shadowrunner at night
wildman@******.net
gswartwo@*********.wichitaks.attgis.com

"It isn't evil, it's just plain wrong." Tick
Message no. 175
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:07:08 -0600
Guy Swartwood writes:
| I wish you wouldn't transfer types of discussion to one place or another.
|
| Some of us don't read rec.games.frp.cyber. I don't read it because I don't
| care about CP or other cyberpunk games there. I also feel that this list
| serv (usually) has more mature people in it, so I enjoy reading this
| mailing. If the discussion has do with SR, then why should it be asked to
| be moved into a newsgroup that doesn't specifically talk about SR?

Ditto.

BTW IMHO
Grounding through sustained spells: yes.
*IF* a mage is waiting in astral space with a held action.
Grounding through quickenings: yes.
Why? Because I don't want players with quickenings to feel
invulnerable.
I use the aforementioned house rules because that's the way I want to do
it. The rules in SRII are contradictory and/or inconclusive and as a GM I
had to make a decision. I did enjoy reading the debates though. Keep it up
:)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
Data Entry Supervisor
The UnCover Company email: dbuehrer@****.org
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Voice: (303) 758-3030 x132
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I hate land like that."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 176
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:19:39 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "DB" == David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes:

DB> Grounding through sustained spells: yes.
DB> *IF* a mage is waiting in astral space with a held
DB> action.

No, that's *interception* of the spell being cast. Effectively you are
standing on the astral bridge between caster and target (remember the
aural syncing?). Grounding occours through the power conduit from astral
space to the mage, a distinctly separate thing.

DB> Grounding through quickenings: yes.
DB> Why? Because I don't want players with quickenings
DB> to feel invulnerable.

Not the best reason in the world, but if it works for you...

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 177
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 09:29:06 -0500
>DB> Grounding through sustained spells: yes.
>DB> *IF* a mage is waiting in astral space with a held
>DB> action.

>No, that's *interception* of the spell being cast. Effectively you are
>standing on the astral bridge between caster and target (remember the
>aural syncing?). Grounding occours through the power conduit from astral
>space to the mage, a distinctly separate thing.
>
>DB> Grounding through quickenings: yes.
>DB> Why? Because I don't want players with quickenings
>DB> to feel invulnerable.
>
>Not the best reason in the world, but if it works for you...

Um, Doesn't it say in the main rulebook that (capitalize-italicize-
boldface-underline-3-times): YOU CANNOT CAST SPELLS AT OTHER SPELLS!!!

*whew!*

Anyway, sustained spells... well, that's obvious: spell on spell. Big
no-no. Quickened spells: I remember reading that a quickened spell is nothing
more than a sustained spell on steroids (or karma, take your pick), making the
same argument viable.

The reason why a person can ground through a spell lock is because
(turn on megaphone) IT IS A FOCUS (megaphone off). IE, it is a physical,
man-made construct that connects the physical and astral planes, allowing
grounding to take place.

In the case of quickenings and sustained spells, there is no link
between the power used in the spell and the physical plane, so there is no way
to ground through it anyway. Along with the above statements, that SHOULD end
the
argument (Yeah, right).


>Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
>PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
>http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 178
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 15:56:09 MET
>Craig:
>
>> through quickened (I already ear laughs of Craig :(
>
>Nah, I'm a pretty good winner.
>
>> It is impossible to ground through a spell, be it sustained or not.
>[...]
>> You can ground through a quickened spell.
>
>Hmmm...I'm not sure I understand this. If one is possible so should
>the other. But, I don't have Corp. Sec. Oh well.

See below.

>Georg:
>> It is impossible to ground through a spell, be it sustained or not.
>> ...
>> You can ground through a quickened spell.
>
>This is absolutely new. If you can ground through a quickened spell
>you can ground through a sustained spell as well - this was the only
>point we all agreed about.
>A sustained spell has (theoretically/logically thinking) even one
>connection more to the mundane plane - but all connections a spell has
>to the mundane plane are not valid for grounding through, that was the
>opinion I had and have. You didn't post anything new to the
>discussion, you just sat yourself in the middle of all positions and
>claimed - "This is the right opinion" without even trying to tell us
>WHY you think this should be the right opinion.

First, I admitted you can ground through a quickened spell 'cause IT IS WRITTEN
IN THE RULES ! (I repeat: Corp. Sec. p.36).
If you want, you can interdict it in your game but it is definitely home rules.

Second, the great difference between a sustained spell and a quickened one is
that you spend karma for the second. Bridges do not explain grounding 'cause it
is written in the rules that the link from the spells isn't sufficient to ground
through (cf SRII). In the case of a quickened spell, you enhanced this link with
your karma and so allow your spells to ground through.

And, Georg, if you are searching for game balance you can allow your quickened
spells to be hidden with your aura as I already told in a previous post.

I hope this is the end of discussion. :)

-Cobra.
Message no. 179
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 11:54:28 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JWC" == John W Carter <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
writes:

JWC> Um, Doesn't it say in the main rulebook that (capitalize-italicize-
JWC> boldface-underline-3-times): YOU CANNOT CAST SPELLS AT OTHER
JWC> SPELLS!!!

Intercepting a spell, standing on the astral bridge between casters, is
not casting a spell at a spell, since you aren't casting a spell to do
so.

The conduit that a mage opens to astral space to power his spell is not
a spell. In fact, at the time the conduit is opened the spell he is
casting does not yet exist.

[...]

JWC> The reason why a person can ground through a spell lock is because
JWC> (turn on megaphone) IT IS A FOCUS (megaphone off).

Wrong, it can be grounded through because it is a dual-natured entity.

JWC> IE, it is a physical, man-made construct that connects the physical
JWC> and astral planes, allowing grounding to take place.

Being man-made is irrelevant, all that is required is the connection
between astral space and the physical world.

JWC> In the case of quickenings and sustained spells, there is no link
JWC> between the power used in the spell and the physical plane,

Then, if there is no connection between the power conduit and the spell,
the spell has no power. Since the spell has no power it ceases to exist.
Since this is ludicrous I shall comment no further on it.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Message no. 180
From: The Kumquat <LAYBROWNJT@***.CUIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 12:02:52 -0500
For anyone who cares to listen, here is the facts on why you CAN ground
through Quickened spells. Corporate Security Handbook, page 36, second column,
second paragraph, in the comment by "Lady Sally" (Who, if anyone cares is
supposedly Sally Tsung, famous and powerful Street Mage) And I quote: "
...corps in the Tir and Aztlan use magical lighting. Their security magicians
quicken light spells to places inside the protected area. ... <small snip> The
disadvantage is, an intruder can ground through the spells. Thats why the
corps tend to leave magical lighting to magical adepts." end quote. So, there
it is, spelled out nicely. Of course, someone could make the lame argument that
the "in character" comments are not rules, per se, BUT, 1)This is obviously a
concious attempt by someone at FASA to clarify this muddy issue, and
2)Suggesting that the Shadowrun Character of Lady Tsung doesn't know anything
about magic is akin to stating that Fastjack knows nothing about decking.

Just My Two Pence.
The Kumquat.

Support Whirled Peas.
Message no. 181
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:18:35 -0500
>>>>>> "JWC" == John W Carter
<scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU> writes:
>
>JWC> Um, Doesn't it say in the main rulebook that (capitalize-italicize-
>JWC> boldface-underline-3-times): YOU CANNOT CAST SPELLS AT OTHER
>JWC> SPELLS!!!
>
>Intercepting a spell, standing on the astral bridge between casters, is
>not casting a spell at a spell, since you aren't casting a spell to do
>so.

That was not what the message was about.

>The conduit that a mage opens to astral space to power his spell is not
>a spell. In fact, at the time the conduit is opened the spell he is
>casting does not yet exist.

Conduit? What the frag does that have to do with sustained spells and
quickenings?

>[...]
>
>JWC> The reason why a person can ground through a spell lock is because
>JWC> (turn on megaphone) IT IS A FOCUS (megaphone off).
>
>Wrong, it can be grounded through because it is a dual-natured entity.

Right. So how am I wrong?

>JWC> IE, it is a physical, man-made construct that connects the physical
>JWC> and astral planes, allowing grounding to take place.
>
>Being man-made is irrelevant, all that is required is the connection
>between astral space and the physical world.

I repeat, how am I wrong?

>JWC> In the case of quickenings and sustained spells, there is no link
>JWC> between the power used in the spell and the physical plane,

>Then, if there is no connection between the power conduit and the spell,
>the spell has no power. Since the spell has no power it ceases to exist.

Wrong. The power IS SOLELY CONTAINED IN THE ASTRAL PLANE!!!!! The spell's
EFFECT may manifest onto the physical plane, but that is not sufficient
to warrant grounding through. This whole reply makes no sense. A spell
is not a "dual-natured" entity, as you so eloquently put it. It isn't even
an entity! It is an energy!

Sheesh, people, do I have to go into fourth-dimensional geometry with you?

>Since this is ludicrous I shall comment no further on it.

If you ask me (which nobody ever does), this reply and your justifications
for allowing grounding through quickenings and (!)sustained spells are the
only ludicrous things here.

>--
>Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
>PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
>http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 182
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:27:06 -0500
> For anyone who cares to listen, here is the facts on why you CAN ground
>through Quickened spells.

No, it implies THAT you can. Doesn't say why.
[snip]

>Of course, someone could make the lame argument that
>the "in character" comments are not rules, per se, BUT, 1)This is obviously
a
>concious attempt by someone at FASA to clarify this muddy issue, and

Someone in FoF also suggested that Ares or Fuchi were working on Powered
Armor. Does that mean that FASA is going to allow runners to get their greedy
little mitts on Glitter Boy suits? Doubt it.

>2)Suggesting that the Shadowrun Character of Lady Tsung doesn't know anything
>about magic is akin to stating that Fastjack knows nothing about decking.

Are you sure that "Lady Sally" was indeed Sally Tsung? And, for the record,
FJ is much older than Tsung.

>Just My Two Pence.
>The Kumquat.


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 183
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:15:22 +0100
> the "in character" comments are not rules, per se, BUT, 1)This is obviously
a
> concious attempt by someone at FASA to clarify this muddy issue, and
> 2)Suggesting that the Shadowrun Character of Lady Tsung doesn't know anything
> about magic is akin to stating that Fastjack knows nothing about decking.
FastWHO??? :-)

*sigh* that beats me.
Why didn't anyone bring this up a week ago? Would have saved me lots of
typing!

Sascha

--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
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| deal out death in judgement. -- Gandalf |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 184
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:16:43 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JWC" == John W Carter <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
writes:

>> The conduit that a mage opens to astral space to power his spell is
>> not a spell. In fact, at the time the conduit is opened the spell he
>> is casting does not yet exist.

JWC> Conduit? What the frag does that have to do with sustained spells
JWC> and quickenings?

When casting a spell the mage casting the spell performs the following
actions:

Step 1: he synchronizes his aura with the aura of the target (excepting
with damaging manipulations which are a different case). This
creates a bridge through astral space connecting the two auras.
Step 2: he opens a conduit or channel into astral space in order to draw
energy for the spell into the physical world. Without this
conduit the spell has no power; without power the spell cannot
exist.
Step 3: he draws energy through that conduit and gives it form by the
force of his will. This step is the actual casting of the spell.
The spell energy travels across the bridge created in step one.
Intercepting a spell in astral space occours at this point,
preventing the spell from crossing the bridge.

Step 3a: If the spell is an instant spell, such as combat magics, the
conduit collapses immediately. Note that the conduit has been in
existance for less time than it takes to cast a spell. You
cannot attack it because, by the time you're ready to launch the
spell at it it's gone.
Step 3b: Or, if the spell is a sustained spell, such as healing magics,
the conduit remains open, channeling magical energy into the
mage. Now, you have a conduit for magical energy running from
astral space to the physical world and into the mage. This
conduit certainly exists for a greater duration than for an
instant spell, and it is not a spell (spells exist between the
caster and the target). So, it really is a valid astral target.
Because it has both an astral presence (else it would be useless
for drawing magical energy from astral space) and a physical
presence (else the energy could never get to the mage sustaining
the spell) it is a dual-natured entity. The physical presence is
tied to the casting mage's aura; it has to be else he would be
unable to draw energy through it to power the spell he's casting
or sustaining.

You can ground through any dual-natured entity.

A mage sustaining a spell is a dual-natured entity.

Therefore you can ground through a mage sustaining a spell.

A quickening is nothing more than a sustained spell that the mage
doesn't have to actively concentrate on. In every other respect it is
identical to a normally sustained spell. Since you can ground through a
mage sustaining a spell you can ground through a mage with a quickened
spell.
.
. . QED

So, what does that all have to do with the conduit? Without creating
that conduit a mage cannot cast spells. Period.

[...]

>> Then, if there is no connection between the power conduit and the spell,
>> the spell has no power. Since the spell has no power it ceases to exist.

JWC> Wrong. The power IS SOLELY CONTAINED IN THE ASTRAL PLANE!!!!!

Then the mage cannot draw power for the spell because he exists in the
PHYSICAL plane. There must be a connection between astral space and the
physical world in order for the spell to receive power from astral
space. No connection means no power means no spell.

JWC> The spell's EFFECT may manifest onto the physical plane, but that
JWC> is not sufficient to warrant grounding through.

I'm not talking about grounding into the spell; that exists between the
mage and the target (can be himself). I'm talking about grounding into
the mage through the conduit that is providing power for the spell.

JWC> This whole reply makes no sense. A spell is not a "dual-natured"
JWC> entity, as you so eloquently put it.

I've never claimed that spells are dual-natured entities. I've claimed
all along that the mage sustaining the spell or the mage with a
quickened spell is a dual-natured entity, due to the power conduit he's
created in order to maintain the spell's existance.

JWC> It isn't even an entity!

Go read your Grimoire II sometime.

JWC> It is an energy!

An entity is a thing. It does not need to be sentient. Active foci are
dual-natured entities.

JWC> Sheesh, people, do I have to go into fourth-dimensional geometry
JWC> with you?

Try some basic common sense.

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Message no. 185
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.GOV>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells -Reply
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:30:26 -0400
<previous quotes of conduits Snipped>

>>> Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
10/24/95 04:16pm >>>
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When casting a spell the mage casting the spell
performs the following actions:

Step 1: he synchronizes his aura with the aura of the
target (excepting
with damaging manipulations which are a
different case). This
creates a bridge through astral space connecting
the two auras.
<<<<<<<<
Where does it say that an actual Bridge is created?
I've re read the section page 149 SRII about Spells
and Astral Space. I'm not going to quote it here but
there is the 2nd paragraph on the second column that
begins with the sentance: " The reason has to do with
_HOW_ a spell works." (FASA Italicised the HOW).
What is says is that the Two auras are
synchronized. No where in that paragraph does it say
a bridge is created. In fact the example they give
equates it to a spark of electricity jumping between
two points. There is NO bridge created when the
Auras are aligned. You may wish to assume that a
bridge is created but that is up to you.
As I write this I realise it might sound a little harsh
please don't take this personally I'm just trying to
figure out where some of the assumptions are coming
from as well as show you where my assumptions are
based.

>>>>>>>>
Step 2: he opens a conduit or channel into astral
space in order to draw
energy for the spell into the physical world.
Without this
conduit the spell has no power; without power the
spell cannot
exist.
<<<<<<<
Please tell me where is says this. The only
reference that comes close to this that I have found is
in the same section under Spells and Astral Space
which says (paraphrased) "that the mages senses are
opened partially to the astral plane which allow him to
see the targets aura to align his own aura to that of the
targets." Nothing that I've seen talks about how the
caster creates the spell. I've always imagined it as
being something like the shaping of Plasma in an
accelerator. The flow is controlled by machines that
never actually touch the actual plasma. Hence the
Mage/Shaman shapes the spell by his actions and
thoughts without actualy being astral.

>>>>>>>>
Step 3: he draws energy through that conduit and
gives it form by the
force of his will. This step is the actual casting of
the spell.
The spell energy travels across the bridge
created in step one.
Intercepting a spell in astral space occours at
this point,
preventing the spell from crossing the bridge.
<<<<<<<<<
Again I'm still trying to figure out where you've got a
conduit from the Mage into Astral space. His senses
are PARTIALLY open to the Astral Plane but he's not
actually astrally perceiving. Also actual spell
interception happens while the spell is traveling on
it's way to the target. I think I might just be
interpreting your wording wrong but I think that is what
you meant as well.

>>>>>>>>>
Step 3a: If the spell is an instant spell, such as
combat magics, the
conduit collapses immediately. Note that the
conduit has been in
existance for less time than it takes to cast a
spell. You
cannot attack it because, by the time you're
ready to launch the
spell at it it's gone.
<<<<<<<<<
Again I'm still puzzled about this bridge that was
created in the first place.

>>>>>>>>>>>>
Step 3b: Or, if the spell is a sustained spell, such as
healing magics,
the conduit remains open, channeling magical
energy into the
mage. Now, you have a conduit for magical
energy running from
astral space to the physical world and into the
mage.
<<<<<<<<<<
Okay, I'll accept for the sake of argument that
somesort of bridge has been created. Why is there
astral energy going into the mage? Since the spell
has already left the Mage and is now effecting the
target shouldn't the conduit for Astral Energy be
feeding into the target?


>>>>>>>>
This
conduit certainly exists for a greater duration
than for an
instant spell, and it is not a spell (spells exist
between the
caster and the target). So, it really is a valid
astral target.
<<<<<<<<
Please tell me why a sustained spell is not a spell?
Sorry but Just because you're not actually casting a
spell doesn't make it a non spell. The spell still
exists as far as I know in Astral space it's just working
on the Aura of the target.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Because it has both an astral presence (else it
would be useless
for drawing magical energy from astral space)
and a physical
presence (else the energy could never get to the
mage sustaining
the spell) it is a dual-natured entity.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Okay, I think I understand now how your bridge
works for sustaining a spell. Astral Energy goes into
the mage, Mage channels the energy, Energy leaves
mage and goes to sustained spell. (I'm not criticizing
but I am hoping that I'm understanding your concept of
sustaining.) If this is the case then I know that our two
views of sustaining spells are totally different. My
view just cuts out the astral-into-mage part. The mage
is sustaining the feed line for the spell but isn't an
actual part of the Astral Energy-into-spell connection.
Does that make sense to you?

>>>>>>>>>>>
The physical presence is
tied to the casting mage's aura; it has to be else
he would be
unable to draw energy through it to power the
spell he's casting
or sustaining.
<<<<<<<<
Not from my viewpoint. The Aura of the mage is
actually doing the channeling of the power all the
Mage has to do is concentrate on keeping his Aura in
match with the target he saw when he cast it. (I can
also see how you can have problems with your
version when someone you are maintaining a spell on
moves out of line of sight.)

>>>>>>>>>>
You can ground through any dual-natured entity.
<<<<<<<<<<
I agree completly.

>>>>>>>>>
A mage sustaining a spell is a dual-natured entity.

Therefore you can ground through a mage sustaining
a spell.
<<<<<<<
I disagree with what I hope are logical reasons I
explained above.

>>>>>>>>
A quickening is nothing more than a sustained spell
that the mage doesn't have to actively concentrate on.
In every other respect it is identical to a normally
sustained spell. Since you can ground through a mage
sustaining a spell you can ground through a mage
with a quickened spell.
.
. . QED
<<<<<<<<<
I still disagree about the above as well.

>>>>>>>>>
So, what does that all have to do with the conduit?
Without creating that conduit a mage cannot cast
spells. Period.
<<<<<<<<<
Show me the part where it says the Conduit is
created and I'll allow it.

>>>>>>>>>

(Snip off previous quotes)

Then the mage cannot draw power for the spell
because he exists in the
PHYSICAL plane. There must be a connection between
astral space and the physical world in order for the
spell to receive power from astral space. No
connection means no power means no spell.
<<<<<<<<<<
Okay, Explain how something in Astral space needs
a physical connection to draw energy from Astral
Space.

>>>>>>>
JWC> The spell's EFFECT may manifest onto the
physical plane, but that
JWC> is not sufficient to warrant grounding through.

I'm not talking about grounding into the spell; that
exists between the mage and the target (can be
himself). I'm talking about grounding into the mage
through the conduit that is providing power for the
spell.

JWC> This whole reply makes no sense. A spell is not
a "dual-natured"
JWC> entity, as you so eloquently put it.

I've never claimed that spells are dual-natured
entities. I've claimed all along that the mage
sustaining the spell or the mage with a quickened
spell is a dual-natured entity, due to the power conduit
he's created in order to maintain the spell's existance.

JWC> It isn't even an entity!

Go read your Grimoire II sometime.

JWC> It is an energy!

An entity is a thing. It does not need to be sentient.
Active foci are dual-natured entities.

JWC> Sheesh, people, do I have to go into
fourth-dimensional geometry
JWC> with you?

Try some basic common sense.
<<<<<<<<<<<

The easy one first, yes, spells are entities that
exist for a brief moment as the travel between caster
and target. They are called up out of the stuff of astral
space and go back into it after there job is done.
As to the bit about a mage being dual-natured
because he is sustaining a spell I'm still not
convinced that you can get all that out of the books. I
understand your view point but I disagree that the
Mage is actually a pass through point for all the astral
energy.

Jriordan@***.gov
Message no. 186
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:44:57 -0400
On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, John W. Carter wrote:

> Um, Doesn't it say in the main rulebook that (capitalize-italicize-
> boldface-underline-3-times): YOU CANNOT CAST SPELLS AT OTHER SPELLS!!!

Yes, but, asterisk-underscore-exclamation mark-bold-italic YOU'RE NOT
CASTING AT THE SPELL. YOU'RE CASTING THROUGH THE CONDUIT!!!. At least,
that's what I think. I think we're all getting a headache from this
discussion. I know I am. :)

--Craig
Message no. 187
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:46:06 -0500
>>> The conduit that a mage opens to astral space to power his spell is
>>> not a spell. In fact, at the time the conduit is opened the spell he
>>> is casting does not yet exist.
>
>JWC> Conduit? What the frag does that have to do with sustained spells
>JWC> and quickenings?
>
>When casting a spell the mage casting the spell performs the following
>actions:
>
>Step 1: he synchronizes his aura with the aura of the target (excepting
> with damaging manipulations which are a different case). This
> creates a bridge through astral space connecting the two auras.

Yeah...

>Step 2: he opens a conduit or channel into astral space in order to draw
> energy for the spell into the physical world. Without this
> conduit the spell has no power; without power the spell cannot
> exist.

Nope! Spells are cast from aura-to-aura, through astral space. Physical spells
manifest through the target's physical body after the spell hits him.
The magician himself is the conduit. Or rather, the _astral body_ of the caster
is the conduit. Or else why would there be Drain?

>Step 3: he draws energy through that conduit and gives it form by the
> force of his will. This step is the actual casting of the spell.
> The spell energy travels across the bridge created in step one.
> Intercepting a spell in astral space occours at this point,
> preventing the spell from crossing the bridge.

Yes, but how could one intercept a spell in astral space that, you claimed in
step 2 that was cast into physical space?

>Step 3a: If the spell is an instant spell, such as combat magics, the
> conduit collapses immediately. Note that the conduit has been in
> existance for less time than it takes to cast a spell. You
> cannot attack it because, by the time you're ready to launch the
> spell at it it's gone.

Attack what? The conduit? You're confusing attacking an astrally-present
magician with grounding a spell into the physical plane.

>Step 3b: Or, if the spell is a sustained spell, such as healing magics,
> the conduit remains open, channeling magical energy into the
> mage. Now, you have a conduit for magical energy running from
> astral space to the physical world and into the mage. This

Wrong! Magical energy from a spell remains in astral space until it hits the
target. Then physical spells ground into the target's physical body through
the bridge between caster and target that the synchronizing of auras makes.

> conduit certainly exists for a greater duration than for an
> instant spell, and it is not a spell (spells exist between the
> caster and the target). So, it really is a valid astral target.
> Because it has both an astral presence (else it would be useless
> for drawing magical energy from astral space) and a physical
> presence (else the energy could never get to the mage sustaining
> the spell) it is a dual-natured entity.

Your premise is flawed. There is no physical presence to a mage casting
a spell. The energy transfer is all astral.

> The physical presence is
> tied to the casting mage's aura; it has to be else he would be
> unable to draw energy through it to power the spell he's casting
> or sustaining.

Again, I can not repeat enough: energy transfer for any and all spells (except
manipulation) are astral.

>JWC> Wrong. The power IS SOLELY CONTAINED IN THE ASTRAL PLANE!!!!!
>
>Then the mage cannot draw power for the spell because he exists in the
>PHYSICAL plane. There must be a connection between astral space and the
>physical world in order for the spell to receive power from astral
>space. No connection means no power means no spell.

Yes, there is a connection between the mage and the astral plane. It's called
his astral body. That part of him that allows him to access the astral plane.
Thus: the enegry transfer is all astral, with no physical component until the
spell strikes the opponent. Where am I getting this information?

Simple: Read SRII, page 149: "Spells and Astral Space"

>Go read your Grimoire II sometime.

Read the rulebook, and I'll read the Grimoire.

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
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Message no. 188
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:11:42 -0500
Another thought about this "conduit": if a sustained spell is keeping
the conduit open, how could a mage cast another spell while sustaining
the first one? After all, the conduit is busy sustaining the first spell.

Second: If the conduit brings astral energy to the physical, wouldn't
that make physical spells easier to cast than they are now? And, on
that same note, wouldn't mana spells be harder? I mean, going from
astral to physical back to astral is a tough job.

Third: If quickenings left a blatant, obvious opening in astral space, what
magician in his right mind would waste Karma on it? I mean, you can't
mask it (I think... but I have a real problem with metamagic being used
on metamagic, but that's just me), and even if you could, the 'conduit' can't
be masked, because it isn't a spell/construct/etc. So any astrally-aware
baddie could just baf! and you're ash. While with a spell lock, there's no
'conduit', and it can be masked, so spend 90k and don't waste the karma.
Why even have quickening in the first place if it's so easy to counter?

I think this all stems from the argument that "mages in SR are too damn
powerful." I disagree with the argument myself, and will continue to run/
play as I always have (none of this has even come close to convincing me
of the exsistance of this "conduit"). While all the rest of you who
spout "that book breaks the rules" or "he doesn't know the rules to his own
game" out one side of the mouth, while out the other you say "gee, wouldn't
it be cool to have dragons as player characters?"

I'm beginning to see why my GM refuses to be a part of this list. There's
no worthwhile GM info, and while some of the posts seem to have good ideas,
(re: Mage's Martial Arts rules. Thanks), they are far outweighed by the
players who try to get away with anything just to be able to "win"...
whatever that is.

I'm sorry... I just can't take it anymore...

As of now I am respectfully withdrawing myself from the ShadowRN list.
Sorry, JD. The list is good: it's some of the people on it who ruin it
for the others.

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 189
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:28:23 +0100
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:28:20 +0100 (MET)

> Grounding through sustained spells: yes.
> *IF* a mage is waiting in astral space with a held action.

Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense in my eyes... WHEN do you have
to delay your action ? Before a sustained spell is being cast ??? This
could have been HOURS before the grounding is attempted...

Bye...
Georg
Message no. 190
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:13:16 +0100
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:13:13 +0100 (MET)

> Sorry about all that, but attacking Tom was just plain silly.

Why don't you all understand that I didn't ATTACK Tom Dowd ? All I
said is that he may be wrong on THIS SPECIAL TOPIC, because he wrote
such a nonsense (in SRII-terms on THIS SPECIAL TOPIC) in his
novels. He's a good writer and I never attacked him - all I said is
that he is a human being, after all. Than man CAN make mistakes, he's
NOT the pope. You all start throwing stones at me for pointing that
out, but that doesn't change the facts: Tom Dowd is only a human being.

Bye...
Georg

P.S. If the novels have nothing to do with the Shadowrun-Universe, why
are they called Chadowrun-novels, then ?
Message no. 191
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 19:21:11 -0600
Georg Greve writes:
|
| > Grounding through sustained spells: yes.
| > *IF* a mage is waiting in astral space with a held action.
|
| Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense in my eyes... WHEN do you have
| to delay your action ? Before a sustained spell is being cast ??? This
| could have been HOURS before the grounding is attempted...
|
| Bye...
| Georg
What I was trying to say is that I have been reading the debate over
grounding spells and IMHO the side that was most effective was the side
that debated grounding through sustained spells and quickenings. That
side, in general, debated the theory behind the act, admitted that the
rules were confusing, and offered good playability reasons for allowing it.
I've come to a conclusion that I'm comfortable with. And, like others, am
no longer interested in this overlong debate.

Goodbye
David

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I love land like that."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 192
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 21:54:56 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Just a simple question, John, but are you deliberately being dense?
Please read what I wrote. The first part of my message was not about
grounding, but was a summary of what happens when a mage casts a spell
and optionally sustains it, as described in SRII and expounded upon in
the Grimoire II. Read what I wrote, then read those two books before you
knee-jerk jump in with "you can't cast spells at spells" because I'm not
talking about casting spells at spells. Not once in this whole
discussion have I ever said anything that could be construed as such.

Spells exist between the mage and the caster, and you cannot cast a
spell at that. You can intercept it in transit, as detailed in the
Grimoire II, but you cannot cast a spell at it.

But in order to cast a spell the mage has to draw energy from astral
space. To do so he must open a conduit (or seive) into astral space to
draw energy through. This is NOT NOT NOT the bridge between the caster
and the target. This conduit exists to perform one thing: channel energy
from astral space to the mage so that he can power the spell. This
conduit is NOT NOT NOT a spell, and when casting an instant spell it
exists for only the briefest instant, which is why it cannot be targeted
with a spell.

But, when a mage sustains or quickens a spell (sustaining is a
prerequisite for quickening) this conduit remains open so the mage can
continuously draw energy from astral space to maintain the spell's
existance. Again, this conduit is NOT NOT NOT a spell.

If you can't wrap your brain around this simple concept then just forget
it; you're too wrapped up in the fact that "you can't cast a spell at a
spell" to see that I'm not talking about casting a spell at a spell, and
never have been.

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Message no. 193
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:05:58 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JWC" == John W Carter <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
writes:

JWC> Another thought about this "conduit": if a sustained spell is
JWC> keeping the conduit open, how could a mage cast another spell while
JWC> sustaining the first one? After all, the conduit is busy sustaining
JWC> the first spell.

A mage can open and maintain any number of such conduits, unless he
attempts to cast an exclusive spell. If he wants to do so he must cease
maintaining the conduits for the other spells.

JWC> Second: If the conduit brings astral energy to the physical,
JWC> wouldn't that make physical spells easier to cast than they are
JWC> now? And, on that same note, wouldn't mana spells be harder? I
JWC> mean, going from astral to physical back to astral is a tough job.

You're confusing spell types with the two worlds. The magical energy for
a mana spell is the exact same magical energy for a physical spell. It
isn't until the mage actually does something with that energy (casts the
spell) that the drain occours. Physical spells are more strenuous than
mana spells because a greater manipulation of that magical energy
occours.

JWC> Third: If quickenings left a blatant, obvious opening in astral
JWC> space, what magician in his right mind would waste Karma on it?
JWC> [...]

Because, unlike spell locks, a quickened spell can have a force greater
than 1. And quickened spells, unlike sustained spells, do not incur the
+2T# penalty to nonmagical actions.

JWC> I think this all stems from the argument that "mages in SR are too
JWC> damn powerful."

No, just a bit of rational, logical thought.

JWC> I disagree with the argument myself, and will continue to run/ play
JWC> as I always have (none of this has even come close to convincing me
JWC> of the exsistance of this "conduit").

Be my guest. Just realise that you're playing under what those who
belive what FASA says would consider a house rule. Even if what FASA
says is often contradictory (such as being able to cast spells through
opaque, man-made glass -- everything about their description of "dead"
objects says it's not possible, but...).

JWC> While all the rest of you who spout "that book breaks the rules" or
JWC> "he doesn't know the rules to his own game" out one side of the
JWC> mouth, while out the other you say "gee, wouldn't it be cool to
JWC> have dragons as player characters?"

I have NEVER said anything of the sort, and I resent your claim to the
contrary.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
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Message no. 194
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells -Reply
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:10:17 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JR" == Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.GOV> writes:

JR> <previous quotes of conduits Snipped>
>>>> Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>

I'd actually respond to this, but your formatting is nigh unto
unreadable. Please use a sane method of citation.

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Message no. 195
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 21:03:57 -0500
>Just a simple question, John, but are you deliberately being dense?

No, just stating my opinion. But thanks for the insult all the same.

>Please read what I wrote. The first part of my message was not about
>grounding, but was a summary of what happens when a mage casts a spell
>and optionally sustains it, as described in SRII and expounded upon in
>the Grimoire II. Read what I wrote, then read those two books before you
>knee-jerk jump in with "you can't cast spells at spells" because I'm not
>talking about casting spells at spells. Not once in this whole
>discussion have I ever said anything that could be construed as such.

Well, since the topic was "grounding spells through quickenings and
sustained spells", I don't see that as too great a leap.

>Spells exist between the mage and the caster, and you cannot cast a
>spell at that. You can intercept it in transit, as detailed in the
>Grimoire II, but you cannot cast a spell at it.

Right. I never said you couldn't.

>But in order to cast a spell the mage has to draw energy from astral
>space. To do so he must open a conduit (or seive) into astral space to
>draw energy through. This is NOT NOT NOT the bridge between the caster
>and the target. This conduit exists to perform one thing: channel energy
>from astral space to the mage so that he can power the spell. This
>conduit is NOT NOT NOT a spell, and when casting an instant spell it
>exists for only the briefest instant, which is why it cannot be targeted
>with a spell.

I NEVER NEVER NEVER insinuated that at all. And if you had read my response
I never once repeated the "can't cast spells at spells" argument.

>But, when a mage sustains or quickens a spell (sustaining is a
>prerequisite for quickening) this conduit remains open so the mage can
>continuously draw energy from astral space to maintain the spell's
>existance. Again, this conduit is NOT NOT NOT a spell.

Ok, but where is the physical presence required for grounding? I'm lost.

>If you can't wrap your brain around this simple concept then just forget
>it; you're too wrapped up in the fact that "you can't cast a spell at a
>spell" to see that I'm not talking about casting a spell at a spell, and
>never have been.

Then we were never talking grounding spells through quickenings in the first
place? Why didn't someone change the subject header then?

Your argument does little to advance your point, but does very much to
retreat your credibility. Personal attacks are unneccessary.

First off: Can you state for me Book, page, and paragraph in SRII and the
Grimoire that justifies your argument? Because I had just looked at
both SRII and the Grimoire since my first post today and not once
did I see any section where spellcasting causes a physical conduit to the
Astral Plane.

Second: Is it not possible that sustainable spell, as part and parcel
to the spell's formula, creates an astral circuit that doesn't rely
on the mage keeping this mythical "conduit" open? This circuit may just
be what the mage is concentrating on keeping open (hence the +2 modifier).
By your logic this is impossible: the conduit is held open by one spell
and using it to cast another would disrupt the first. At least that's what
I gather.

Third: I can if I set my mind to dictate book, page, and paragraph sections
of several SR sourcebooks that back up my theories, and I have done so in
previous posts. All you have done is attack me personally. Give me some
facts to back up your posts and we may yet solve this without slinging
much mud.

Lastly: Calm down. This isn't the building of the atom bomb here. This is
a discussion of a game. Just that, nothing more. I would appreciate
keeping it as such.

>--
>Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
>PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
>http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ Earth, presumably from outer space.


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
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| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
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Message no. 196
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:40:12 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JWC" == John W Carter <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
writes:

>> But, when a mage sustains or quickens a spell (sustaining is a
>> prerequisite for quickening) this conduit remains open so the mage
>> can continuously draw energy from astral space to maintain the
>> spell's existance. Again, this conduit is NOT NOT NOT a spell.

JWC> Ok, but where is the physical presence required for grounding? I'm
JWC> lost.

Inlet of the conduit is in astral space. Outlet of the conduit is the
mage's aura. Can't be anything else, otherwise the mage would be
unconnected to it and thus would be unable to draw power through it and
thus would be unable to cast the spell. The mage and his aura exist in
the physical world. There's the physical presence for the conduit.

>> If you can't wrap your brain around this simple concept then just
>> forget it; you're too wrapped up in the fact that "you can't cast a
>> spell at a spell" to see that I'm not talking about casting a spell
>> at a spell, and never have been.

JWC> Then we were never talking grounding spells through quickenings in
JWC> the first place? Why didn't someone change the subject header then?

The subject is "Grounding Spells" not "Grounding Spells Through
Spells".

JWC> Your argument does little to advance your point, but does very much
JWC> to retreat your credibility. Personal attacks are unneccessary.

JWC> First off: Can you state for me Book, page, and paragraph in SRII
JWC> and the Grimoire that justifies your argument? Because I had just
JWC> looked at both SRII and the Grimoire since my first post today and
JWC> not once did I see any section where spellcasting causes a physical
JWC> conduit to the Astral Plane.

Grimoire II, page 110, second paragraph:

When a magician uses his inherent genetic ability to contact
astral space, he casts a spell. He opens a channel between the
physical and etheric planes, [there it is, in black and white]
configuring the channel according to his knowledge of
spellcasting and the formula of the spell he is casting. The
result is a spell construct on the etheric plane.

Further down, paragraph 5:

When the spell reaches its target, it creates the effect the
magician desires by transferring astral energy into the physical
plane. Because this process connects the aura of the casting
magician directly to the the aura of his target, [and there is
the bridge between caster and target, as I said, again in black
and white] spellcasting requires line-of-sight targeting.

JWC> Second: Is it not possible that sustainable spell, as part and
JWC> parcel to the spell's formula, creates an astral circuit that
JWC> doesn't rely on the mage keeping this mythical "conduit" open?
JWC> [...]

No. Without this conduit there is no power for the spell. No power, no
spell.

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--
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Message no. 197
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:55:38 -0500
First, thank you for being more civil...

>JWC> Ok, but where is the physical presence required for grounding? I'm
>JWC> lost.

>Inlet of the conduit is in astral space. Outlet of the conduit is the
>mage's aura. Can't be anything else, otherwise the mage would be
>unconnected to it and thus would be unable to draw power through it and
>thus would be unable to cast the spell. _The mage and his aura exist in
>the physical world._ There's the physical presence for the conduit.

Um, no. The mage's aura is astral.

>Grimoire II, page 110, second paragraph:
>
> When a magician uses his inherent genetic ability to contact
> astral space, he casts a spell. He opens a channel between the
> physical and etheric planes, [there it is, in black and white]

Merely opening yourself to astral energy is not sufficient to warrant an astral
attack. If that were the case, no magician would ever cast a spell.

> configuring the channel according to his knowledge of
> spellcasting and the formula of the spell he is casting. The
> result is a spell construct _on the etheric plane_.

...which justifies my point: spellcasting is completely astral.

>Further down, paragraph 5:
>
> When the spell reaches its target, it creates the effect the
> magician desires by transferring astral energy into the physical
> plane. Because this process connects the aura of the casting
> magician directly to the the aura of his target, [and there is
> the bridge between caster and target....]

...but only on the astral plane


>JWC> Second: Is it not possible that sustainable spell, as part and
>JWC> parcel to the spell's formula, creates an astral circuit that
>JWC> doesn't rely on the mage keeping this mythical "conduit" open?
>JWC> [...]
>
>No. Without this conduit there is no power for the spell. No power, no
>spell.

If there were such a conduit, it only opens long enough to allow the energy
to pass through the caster's astral form into the spell. Even if the spell
were sustained, this "conduit" would only be open long enough to complete the
spell's (pattern) formula. Sustainance of the spell would be handled in the
spell's formula, not through sticking an astral foot in the door.

Listen, Rat. No offense, man, but you're beating a dead horse. It's rather
obvious neither one of us is going to convince the other to change his mind.
We can present all the arguments we want and the other will always find an
argument to counter.

We disagree on how magic works. So what? I say we just agree to disagree and
move on to bigger and (hopefully) better things. This is a mailing list,
not an evangelical forum.

Thank you in advance.

>--
>Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
>PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
>http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 198
From: Georg Greve <ggreve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:43:42 +0100
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:43:39 +0100 (MET)

> Yes, but, asterisk-underscore-exclamation mark-bold-italic YOU'RE NOT
> CASTING AT THE SPELL. YOU'RE CASTING THROUGH THE CONDUIT!!!. At least,
> that's what I think. I think we're all getting a headache from this
> discussion. I know I am. :)

Yes - but you got to ENTER the tunnel first in order to be able to USE
it and on the astral side there is a spell. So how do you get into the
tunnel ?

Bye...
Georg

P.S. By the way: I think we should let the Corp.Sec.Book out of the
discussion - they even allow Watchers to manifest, something that's
strictly forbidden according to the Grimthingy.
Message no. 199
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Grounding spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:19:02 +0000
Here's another thought.

Some people claim you can ground through a sustained spell because teh
susstained spell has a link between the astral and teh physical. Others
say the spell is wholly in the astral plane -then others retort by saying
"well how can it affect the physical plane then?".

Here's how (at least for some spells), auras and physical bodies are
sympathetic in nature -what happens to one happens to the other. The
spell is actually working on the aura of the target -hurting it, giving
it better senses, whatever- and this is in turn reflected in the physical
body. The spell is not affecting the physical plane but the auras of
physical objects (that barrier spell is stopping the aura of that
bullet :)

Maybe this is why a mage needs to synchronise his aura with that of his
target, so he can calibrate the spell for the same aura/physical
relationship -this can only be done if there is teh physical, physical
symmetry.


The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
Shadowrun Web Site under construction at
http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 200
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 08:15:30 -0600
Please forgive me but I have some questions about spell casting and
grounding.

A mage can cast a spell at a target from the physical world by aligning his
aura with that of the target, creating a bridge/conduit/circuit that allows
the mage to channel the flow of energy into the target.

However, when the mage is in astral form this is not possible. Why? Does
the mage require his physical body to cast spells? No, because a mage can
still cast spells at targets in astral space (while the mage is astral).
From astral space the mage can see a physical (and living) target's aura,
so why isn't synchronization/aligning allowed. Does the mage's aura come
with him into astral space or does it stay with his body? Is there
something else involved in spell casting that I'm missing? Is it simply a
game mechanic to keep mages from casting spells from astral space at a
non mage in the physical world that can't defend himself?

A mage can ground a spell into a spell lock from astral space because the
spell lock is dual natured and has a physical component. A dragon (and
other paranormal critters) is dual natured and has a physical component
(it's body), so can a spell be grounded into a dragon? Or, is a dragon not
dual natured in the same way as a spell lock?

David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
Data Entry Supervisor
The UnCover Company email: dbuehrer@****.org
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Voice: (303) 758-3030 x132
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I hate land like that."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 201
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:19:29 -0400
On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Georg Greve wrote:

> Yes - but you got to ENTER the tunnel first in order to be able to USE
> it and on the astral side there is a spell. So how do you get into the
> tunnel ?

I picture it as a funnel (see my post on rec.games.frp.cyber), not
as a screen door.

--Craig
Message no. 202
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Grounding spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 08:31:59 -0600
The Digital Mage writes:
|
| Here's another thought.
|
(snip)
|
| Here's how (at least for some spells), auras and physical bodies are
| sympathetic in nature -what happens to one happens to the other. The
| spell is actually working on the aura of the target -hurting it, giving
| it better senses, whatever- and this is in turn reflected in the physical
| body. The spell is not affecting the physical plane but the auras of
| physical objects (that barrier spell is stopping the aura of that
| bullet :)

Except that bullets don't have auras because they're nonliving. Otherwise you
might be able to shoot at mages in astral form. So the question is: How do
spells that exist only in astral space affect the physical world? If they
do exist in astral and physical space why can't you ground through them? If
they exist only on the physical plane how are they powered?

David

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
Data Entry Supervisor
The UnCover Company email: dbuehrer@****.org
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Voice: (303) 758-3030 x132
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I hate land like that."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 203
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:19:41 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

If you'd actually *read* what I've written, as a whole, rather than
picking apart individual sentences out of context with the rest of what
I've written you'd see what I've been trying to prove. And, while you're
at it you should actually read your Grimoire II sometime. You obviously
have not read it as thoroughly as you claim. It's all spelled out in
there. Read it. And if you still don't agree, fine, that's your house
rule. But don't try to claim that your house rules are what's in the
rulebooks because, as I have repeatedly shown, backed up by Tom Dowd and
Grimoire II, you are unequivocably wrong.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
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Message no. 204
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:27:07 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "DB" == David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG> writes:

DB> If they exist only on the physical plane how are they powered?

Grimoire II, page 110, summary:

A mage casting a spell opens a conduit into astral space to draw power
through into the physical plane. He then creates a bridge bewteen his
aura and that of his target. The spell energy travels down the conduit
into the mage, then from the mage to the target.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
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Message no. 205
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 12:27:28 -0600
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
|
| If you'd actually *read* what I've written, as a whole, rather than
| picking apart individual sentences out of context with the rest of what
| I've written you'd see what I've been trying to prove. And, while you're
| at it you should actually read your Grimoire II sometime. You obviously
| have not read it as thoroughly as you claim. It's all spelled out in
| there. Read it. And if you still don't agree, fine, that's your house
| rule. But don't try to claim that your house rules are what's in the
| rulebooks because, as I have repeatedly shown, backed up by Tom Dowd and
| Grimoire II, you are unequivocably wrong.

Um...who is this directed at?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Buehrer
Data Entry Supervisor
The UnCover Company email: dbuehrer@****.org
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Voice: (303) 758-3030 x132
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I hate land like that."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 206
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:24:46 -0500
>If you'd actually *read* what I've written, as a whole, rather than
>picking apart individual sentences out of context with the rest of what
>I've written you'd see what I've been trying to prove. And, while you're
>at it you should actually read your Grimoire II sometime. You obviously
>have not read it as thoroughly as you claim. It's all spelled out in
>there. Read it. And if you still don't agree, fine, that's your house
>rule. But don't try to claim that your house rules are what's in the
>rulebooks because, as I have repeatedly shown, backed up by Tom Dowd and
>Grimoire II, you are unequivocably wrong.

One: I did read the Grimoire and there is nothing that I have seen that in
any way backs up your conduit theory. All I have seen backs up my theory
that spellcasting is totally astral, both in the Grimoire and in the SRII
rulebook, which you seem to have forgotten.

Also, if you are right, why does the rulebook and the Grimoire not specifically
use the words "vulnerable to astral attack" in the descriptions of sustained
spells and quickenings? That would be too easy and would leave nobody anything
to bitch about.

It is obvious that you don't even read my replies as intelligent responses,
replying as a "how dare he say I'm wrong?" post every time I post intelligent,
pertinent responses to your theories.

The way I see it, both of our theories are "house rules" because none of the
books say that you can or can't. You are not the authority on SR rules.
Neither am I. The only difference is I never claimed to be, while you
proclaim yourself God and flame anyone who even hints that you may be wrong.

We disagree. Get over it.

/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
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Message no. 207
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:55:10 -0400
On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, David Buehrer wrote:

> However, when the mage is in astral form this is not possible. Why? Does

Because you need physical/physical or astral/astral symmetry between
the caster and target to synchronize the auras. This is in the rules
somewhere, but I don't have my books handy.

> (it's body), so can a spell be grounded into a dragon? Or, is a dragon not

Well, yes. But you'd better make it a good one. :)

--Craig
Message no. 208
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:48:24 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JWC" == John W Carter <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
writes:

JWC> One: I did read the Grimoire and there is nothing that I have seen
JWC> that in any way backs up your conduit theory. All I have seen backs
JWC> up my theory that spellcasting is totally astral, both in the
JWC> Grimoire and in the SRII rulebook, which you seem to have
JWC> forgotten.

Grimoire II, page 110:

He opens a channel between the physical and etheric planes,
[...]

That very plainly says that the channel connects the physical world and
the etheric (astral) plane. Plain as day, plain as the noise on my face.
Channel connects physical and etheric planes. No ambiguity in that
statement whatsoever.

JWC> Also, if you are right, why does the rulebook and the Grimoire not
JWC> specifically use the words "vulnerable to astral attack" in the
JWC> descriptions of sustained spells and quickenings? That would be too
JWC> easy and would leave nobody anything to bitch about.

Channel required to provide power to spell (Grimoire II, page 110).
Channel connects astral space and physical world (Grimoire II, page
110). Mage with active channel is dual-natured, by definition; the
conduit connects astral space and the physical world (Grimoire II, page
110), with the physical end being the mage himself (common sense; if
he's not connected to the channel he cannot draw power through it to
cast his spell). Dual-natured entities may be grounded through, if the
channel exists long enough to target, such as sustaining or quickening a
spell (common sense; if the channel is required to power the spell, it
must remain in existance if the spell remains in existance). Mage with
sustained or quickened spell may be grounded through.

Now, if you're going to refute this, provide a logical argument
supported by the rulebooks. If not then don't bother responding.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
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Message no. 209
From: "John W. Carter" <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 17:05:26 -0500
>JWC> One: I did read the Grimoire and there is nothing that I have seen
>JWC> that in any way backs up your conduit theory. All I have seen backs
>JWC> up my theory that spellcasting is totally astral, both in the
>JWC> Grimoire and in the SRII rulebook, which you seem to have
>JWC> forgotten.
>
>Grimoire II, page 110:
>
> He opens a channel between the physical and etheric planes,
> [...]

>That very plainly says that the channel connects the physical world and
>the etheric (astral) plane. Plain as day, plain as the noise on my face.
>Channel connects physical and etheric planes. No ambiguity in that
>statement whatsoever.

Opening one's body to the ENERGIES of the astral plane and actually exposing
his astral body to the astral space are two entirely different things.
Your argument sounds good on paper (but I guess for you that's all that
matters), but in practice, it falls apart. That is (using common sense)
analogous to saying a wire (the mage) connected to a battery (the astral
plane) is the same as the electrons (astral energy) flowing through that
wire.

>Channel required to provide power to spell (Grimoire II, page 110).

Check

>Channel connects astral space and physical world (Grimoire II, page
110).

No. Connects _astral energy_ to mage, done completely in the astral plane,
through his _astral body_.

>Dual-natured entities may be grounded through, if the
>channel exists long enough to target, such as sustaining or quickening a
>spell (common sense; if the channel is required to power the spell, it
>must remain in existance if the spell remains in existance).

Not really common sense, if you would read something other than that one
sentence. SRII states that the physical/astral connection is instantaneous.
Blanket statement, making no distinction between sustained and instantaneous
spels.

>Mage with sustained or quickened spell may be grounded through.

Nope. Still don't believe you. If your arguments held water, no mage in
his right mind would cast a spell for fear of getting grounded through. I'd
assume, using common sense as you like to say it, that the thaumaturgans who
designed basic magical theory would not design a way of spellcasting that
screwed the mage at every opportunity.

>Now, if you're going to refute this, provide a logical argument
>supported by the rulebooks. If not then don't bother responding.

You're basing your whole argument on one sentence in one paragraph
in one sourcebook. That isn't very thorough. The main flaw in your logic
is that you assume all spells become physical at some point in the casting.
SRII also states that there is very little physical effect on the caster
during spellcasting. (Again, look in the Spells and Astral Space section).

Let me sum up spellcasting:
Magician's aura synchronizes to target's.
Magician gathers astral energy into his body (astral body, not physical body).
Spell travels through astral plane to target.
If the spell is physical in nature, the physical nature manifests upon hitting
the target, not before.

Now, not once in that sequence do the actual astral _plane_ ever reach the
physical plane. Astral energy and astral space are not interchangable.

Let me take your logic one step further: conjuring. Specifically elementals.
The magician's aura is "exposed" for hours and hours as he reaches out to the
elemental planes. Now, following your logic, an astral travelling magician
should be able to attack the magician at his leisure. Do you see the folly
in following your logic to its inevitable conclusion? What about physical
adept abilities? By your logic, all phys-ads have their bodies exposed to the
astral plane 24 hours a day. What's stopping a mage from casting a spell
at them?

This has gotten very silly, Rat. Stop it now before you drive yourself insane
because I won't crack first. Ta.


/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
| John W. Carter |Janice: You had a brother who was a |
| SCarterJW@****.tristate.edu | comedian? |
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|Dr. Bob: Yes, but that was before he fell |
| Card-carrying member of: | into a vat of molten optical |
| The Reptile Sucks | glass. |
| Fan Club |Janice: What did he do? |
| (UMK3: More than a game... |Dr. Bob: He made a spectacle of himself! |
| ...it's a way of life) |-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
| | Home: http://www.tristate.edu:8080/carter |
\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/
Message no. 210
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 19:27:32 -0400
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>>>>> "JWC" == John W Carter <scarterjw@****.TRISTATE.EDU>
writes:

>> Grimoire II, page 110:
>> He opens a channel between the physical and etheric planes,
[...]
>> Channel connects astral space and physical world (Grimoire II, page
>> 110).

JWC> No. Connects _astral energy_ to mage, done completely in the astral
JWC> plane,

Read it again: "He opens a channel between the physical and etheric
planes." *PHYSICAL PLANE*. Not astral to astral, astral to *PHYSICAL
PLANE*. See? *PHYSICAL PLANE*, not astral plane; *PHYSICAL PLANE*.

If you can't see where it says *PHYSICAL PLANE* then you might want to
study a bit of English (or whatever language your books are written in)
before digging into your Grimoire.

JWC> through his _astral body_.

If that were the case then the mage would have to be astrally perceiving
or projecting. Since he isn't -- spellcasting adepts cannot perceive or
project -- his aura is firmly in the physical world. It may be visible
in astral space, just as the aura of any living thing would be visible,
but it is not manifest there.

I would say it is you that is basing his arguments upon an incomplete
understanding of how magic works in Shadowrun. Your summary of
spellcasting contradicts what the Grimoire II very clearly describes.

JWC> Let me take your logic one step further: conjuring.

Conjuring has *NOTHING* to do with spellcasting, so why are you bringing
it up?

JWC> Specifically elementals. The magician's aura is "exposed" for hours
JWC> and hours as he reaches out to the elemental planes.

As is yours, right now. A mage summoning an elemental is not astrally
perceiving, according to what's in my rulebooks. In fact, an hermetic
mage *cannot* do what you suggest or he'd be unable to use his materials
in the summoning ritual.

Furthermore, nowhere in my Shadowrun II does it say that the mage
summoning the elemental is making any kind of connection to astral space
whatsoever. In fact, an hermetic mage wouldn't do anything of the sort;
searching out spirits is a shamanic method, not an hermetic. The
hermetic mage cajoles and entices the elemental to him with his ritual,
circle, and materials; he doesn't go out looking for one.

JWC> Now, following your logic, an astral travelling magician should be
JWC> able to attack the magician at his leisure.

Excuse me, but I fail to see how "he opens a channel between the
physical and etheric planes, configuring the channel according to his
knowledge of SPELLCASTING and the formula of the SPELL HE IS CASTING"
has anything to do with conjuration. Please show where the the "How
Spells Work" section of the Grimoire II mentions conjuration and I'll
belive you, or where in "Summoning Elementals" in SRII says that the
mage is creating such a conduit, and I'll belive you.

JWC> Do you see the folly in following your logic to its inevitable
JWC> conclusion? What about physical adept abilities? By your logic, all
JWC> phys-ads have their bodies exposed to the astral plane 24 hours a
JWC> day.

Excuse me, but where does this occour? Since when do physical adepts
open conduits into astral space in order to draw power for casting
spells?

I fail to see how you've traced my logic to this conclusion. I was
talking about elements of spellcasting, which apply neither to physical
adepts nor to the elements of conjuration.

JWC> What's stopping a mage from casting a spell at them?

THey're not dual-natured entities, unless they're astrally perceiving.

This straw-man has been brought to you by the letters "C", "V", and
the
number "4".

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ head.
Message no. 211
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 00:18:39 GMT
Rat writes:

> Grimoire II, page 110:
> He opens a channel between the physical and etheric planes.

> That very plainly says that the channel connects the physical world and
> the etheric (astral) plane. Plain as day, plain as the noise on my face.
> Channel connects physical and etheric planes. No ambiguity in that
> statement whatsoever.

Except for one. Where are the ends of this channel?

"When the spell reaches its target, it creates the effect the magician
desires by transferring astral energy into the physical plane."

Now, the magician has a conduit from physical to astral to create the
construct of the spell. This construct then goes to the target, where
it creates a link down which astral energy flows.

*This* is the point where the conduit is opened enough to transmit
astral energy. For an electrical analogy, compare signal wire to
power cable. Try driving any electrical appliance through signal
wire. A link you can use for fine manipulation simply cannot handle
heavy loads.

There's a common sense statement based on the facts in the book.
Plain as the nose on my face too.

> Channel required to provide power to spell (Grimoire II, page 110).
> Channel connects astral space and physical world (Grimoire II, page
> 110). Mage with active channel is dual-natured, by definition; the
> conduit connects astral space and the physical world (Grimoire II, page
> 110), with the physical end being the mage himself (common sense; if
> he's not connected to the channel he cannot draw power through it to
> cast his spell).

Grimoire P110: power is drawn when the spell reaches its target. Not
by the caster.

Sticking with the electrical analogy: this computer is connected to
a 240-volt mains supply that could handily deliver enough power to kill
me. Can a power spike wipe me out? No, it can't, I'm not holding those
wires. But I'm directly, intimately, controlling the computer! Yet
that deadly electricity cannot reach me. The computer draws power, I
don't. The computer is plugged into the mains, I'm not.

> Dual-natured entities may be grounded through, if the
> channel exists long enough to target, such as sustaining or quickening a
> spell (common sense; if the channel is required to power the spell, it
> must remain in existance if the spell remains in existance). Mage with
> sustained or quickened spell may be grounded through.

The power conduit is from astral to the target. The *target* of a sustained
or (possibly) quickened spell may be grounded through. The *caster* may not.

And hiding the link for a focus or quickened spell makes this harder (not
impossible, but harder...) since you have to unravel the link before finding
the astral end to ground into.

> Now, if you're going to refute this, provide a logical argument
> supported by the rulebooks. If not then don't bother responding.

I think I just have.

The best argument is "Players and GMs can decide for themselves how to
interpret an ambiguous rule." If you doubt *that*, turn to Page 110 of
the Grimythingy...

"How can a magician capture the universe-embracing exaltation of spirit that
is the key to magic when he is playing such mind games with himself?"

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 212
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:47:21 -0400
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Here's the flaw in your argument, Paul. Read the fifth or sixth
paragraphs on page 110 of your Grimoire II, where it says that the mage
casting the spell creates a second conduit, bewteen his aura and that of
the target of the spell. The first conduit is created before this second
conduit, so there's no way that the caster could attach it to his
target; the only thing he could reasonably attach it to at that point is
himself. The Grimoire goes on to describe how the magical eneries flow
first into the mage through the first conduit and then through the
second conduit to the target. The mage is quite obviously in the middle
of this, not an outside observer as you describe.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 213
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 21:26:40 GMT
Rat writes:

> Here's the flaw in your argument, Paul. Read the fifth or sixth
> paragraphs on page 110 of your Grimoire II, where it says that the mage
> casting the spell creates a second conduit, bewteen his aura and that of
> the target of the spell. The first conduit is created before this second
> conduit, so there's no way that the caster could attach it to his
> target; the only thing he could reasonably attach it to at that point is
> himself. The Grimoire goes on to describe how the magical eneries flow
> first into the mage through the first conduit and then through the
> second conduit to the target. The mage is quite obviously in the middle
> of this, not an outside observer as you describe.
> Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.


Rat, your interpretation of this is feasable but by no means definitive.

The energy transfer happens at the target, not at the caster. The magician
creates his spell construct, which travels "at blinding speed" to the
target (so too fast to target... it blinded you, right? Logic)

"All of the above happens virtually instantaneously when the magician
casts his spell".

Hence the repeated ruling that you cannot target an instant-duration
spell: hence you cannot target the magician while he creates the spell
construct.

You can only attack the conduit created at the target. You might say that
the power runs from the astral, to the magician, to the target(s) of the
spells. I say the power runs from astral to the target with a control link
to the magician. The exact wording is that the spell reaches the target,
then channels energy into the target. It does not mention channeling energy
through the mage: the magician is linked to the spell for control purposes.
He may or may not be the conduit for the power.

Still with the computer analogy, this computer is *controlled* by me, linked
to me, but the power for it does not pass through me. I dispatch electrical
messages which have effects on others, but your machine doesn't need a power
line from my left ear before you can read this :)

The way you choose to read it may be quite obvious to you. I and others read
the same words and consider different meanings apply.

Your interpretation is just that, an interpretation, and your refusal to
concede even the slightest possibility that there may be another valid
way to read it is rather wearing, at least to everyone else. If you wish
to continue, shall we declare it a stalemate here on the list and take
it to e-mail?

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 214
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 14:18:22 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "PJA" == Paul Jonathan Adam
<Paul@********.demon.co.uk> writes:

PJA> Rat, your interpretation of this is feasable but by no means
PJA> definitive.

It's the same thing that the people at FASA (Tom Dowd & Paul Hume) have
said on numerous occasions. That's about as definitive as you can get.

PJA> The energy transfer happens at the target, not at the caster.

The Grimoire II and both Paul and Tom say it goes from astral space ->
magician casting spell -> target of the spell. They do not say that it
goes from astral space -> target of the spell.

PJA> The magician creates his spell construct, which travels "at
PJA> blinding speed" to the target (so too fast to target... it blinded
PJA> you, right? Logic)

PJA> "All of the above happens virtually instantaneously when the
PJA> magician casts his spell".

PJA> Hence the repeated ruling that you cannot target an
PJA> instant-duration spell: hence you cannot target the magician while
PJA> he creates the spell construct.

I've never said otherwise.

PJA> You can only attack the conduit created at the target.

No, you can't because the other end doesn't exist in astral space. You
could only attack the inlet of the first conduit, the one the magician
first opens to draw power for the spell. This is the only opening that
exists in astral space, and thus is the only one you could target.

PJA> You might say that the power runs from the astral, to the magician,
PJA> to the target(s) of the spells.

Tom Dowd and Paul Hume and Shadowrun II and Grimoire II say that this is
what happens.

PJA> I say the power runs from astral to the target with a control link
PJA> to the magician.

I say that you're using a house rule that contradicts what's in the
rulebooks and has been clarified as such by the people at FASA.

PJA> The exact wording is that the spell reaches the target, then
PJA> channels energy into the target. It does not mention channeling
PJA> energy through the mage: the magician is linked to the spell for
PJA> control purposes. He may or may not be the conduit for the power.

Then the mage wouldn't take any drain from the raw magical energy
ravaging his body, because there isn't any, right?

PJA> Still with the computer analogy, this computer is *controlled* by
PJA> me, linked to me, but the power for it does not pass through me.

Your computer analogy is flawed, as I said. You are not directly
manipulating the electricity coursing through the wiring, whereas a mage
casting a spell is directly manipulating the magical energy of the spell.
If magicians in Shadowrun used something similar to the spell matricies
of Earthdawn I'd agree with your analogy; but everything that's been
published and said by FASA says otherwise.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
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Message no. 215
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 14:08:14 -0600
Stainless Steel Rat writes:
|
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|
| >>>>> "DB" == David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.org> writes:
|
| >>> It's the same thing that the people at FASA (Tom Dowd & Paul Hume)
| >>> have said on numerous occasions. That's about as definitive as you
| >>> can get.
|
| DB> Unfortunately its not definitive enough, which is why this debate
| DB> has not been resolved.
|
| You've seen the ruling, you've seen the whys behind the ruling, and you
| still aren't satisfied.
|
| Go away.

Oh, go away yourself :-P


David Buehrer
Data Entry Supervisor
The UnCover Company email: dbuehrer@****.org
3801 E. Florida, Suite 200 Voice: (303) 758-3030 x132
Denver, CO 80210 FAX: (303) 758-5946

"The land that had nourished him and had borne him fruit now turned against
him and called him a fruit. Man, I love land like that."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 216
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:39:59 GMT
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> PJA> Rat, your interpretation of this is feasable but by no means
> PJA> definitive.
>
> It's the same thing that the people at FASA (Tom Dowd & Paul Hume) have
> said on numerous occasions. That's about as definitive as you can get.

We play the game, on this one, by the words in the book. Reports of what
Tom and Paul may or may not have said are fine. If you want to say
"it's ambiguous in the book, but the developers say do it this way",
that's fine. But your argument was about the interpretation in tbe book,
and you took a long time to get round to "well, the developers clarified
the ambiguity".

> PJA> The energy transfer happens at the target, not at the caster.
>
> The Grimoire II and both Paul and Tom say it goes from astral space ->
> magician casting spell -> target of the spell. They do not say that it
> goes from astral space -> target of the spell.

Rat, you can call on outside resources all you like, but I don't have
Grimoire II and I've never spoken to Paul, Tom, or any other FASA
developer. I *have* read the SRII rulebook and the second ed Grimoire
(first ed was too long ago to remember clearly), and I can't find this
statement at all. Again, basing your arguments on material to which you
are privy, but the mere mortals who only buy the rulebooks are not, may
be satisfying to you but it's a little pointless unless you're willing
to arbitrate every other rules query that arises.

> PJA> You can only attack the conduit created at the target.
>
> No, you can't because the other end doesn't exist in astral space. You
> could only attack the inlet of the first conduit, the one the magician
> first opens to draw power for the spell. This is the only opening that
> exists in astral space, and thus is the only one you could target.

But that conduit exists only when the construct is being created
(Grimoire). The spell then moves to the target

> PJA> You might say that the power runs from the astral, to the magician,
> PJA> to the target(s) of the spells.
>
> Tom Dowd and Paul Hume and Shadowrun II and Grimoire II say that this is
> what happens.

I haven't talked to Tom Dowd.
I haven't spoken to Paul Hume.
Grimoire II isn't on sale in Britain yet.

But... The Grimoire I have says no such thing.
Shadowrun II contradicts you. "The energy of combat spells is channeled into
the target directly from astral space through the target's aura." Not
from astral through the magician to the target: directly from astral to the
target. (SRII, page 127). This is the only statement on the from...to
nature of the energy flow I could find.

Now, perhaps on reflection since SRII was written, Paul and Tom have changed
their minds and so perhaps Grimoire II alters this. But I read the words in
front of me, and they don't agree with you or <shudder> with them. Why not, I
cannot guess. Until I speak to one or both of these gentlemen myself, I'll
stick to their work as written, and when Grimoire II is released here I'll
buy it and read it with interest.

> PJA> I say the power runs from astral to the target with a control link
> PJA> to the magician.
>
> I say that you're using a house rule that contradicts what's in the
> rulebooks and has been clarified as such by the people at FASA.

Please indicate where in the rulebooks it explicitly states that the
magician is involved in the loop. See above for a main rulebook quote
that contradicts you, directly (if you'll pardon the pun). See the
Grimoire and my earlier arguments for the argument being indecisive.

> PJA> The exact wording is that the spell reaches the target, then
> PJA> channels energy into the target. It does not mention channeling
> PJA> energy through the mage: the magician is linked to the spell for
> PJA> control purposes. He may or may not be the conduit for the power.
>
> Then the mage wouldn't take any drain from the raw magical energy
> ravaging his body, because there isn't any, right?

If your version was correct, why doesn't a magician take Drain for every
action he sustains a spell? The flood of raw energy ravaging his body is
continuing for as long as the spell is up, *if* it has to pass through
the magician. The Drain is the effort of creating and charging the spell
construct which reaches the target and opens the conduit there: that's
why it's a one-off penalty. Otherwise, sustaining a spell for an hour
would be sixty times more draining or damaging than sustaining it for a
minute.

And, by that same token, the raw magical energy you use as a Mana Blast
to kill - say - a hundred people (they're standing close together) is
*all* passing through you. If you get enough 'leakage' to give you a
Serious wound from the energy that does this to a single target, you
are taking one hundred times that 'leakage' from a spell that kills one
hundred in a blow.

The energy doesn't leak to the magician, but passes slickly through and
slams his target(s)? Well, that's okay too, except again grounding into
a sustained spell thus logically affects the target of the spell, not
the caster. The fact that these are often one and the same is for this
purpose irrelevant.

> PJA> Still with the computer analogy, this computer is *controlled* by
> PJA> me, linked to me, but the power for it does not pass through me.
>
> Your computer analogy is flawed, as I said. You are not directly
> manipulating the electricity coursing through the wiring, whereas a mage
> casting a spell is directly manipulating the magical energy of the spell.
> If magicians in Shadowrun used something similar to the spell matricies
> of Earthdawn I'd agree with your analogy; but everything that's been
> published and said by FASA says otherwise.

If I'm not directly manipulating that energy, how am I controlling it at
all?

Let's take an even simpler analogy. I take a construct called a "light
bulb". I plug it into an electrical supply. I flick a switch to turn
on the supply.

I control that light, since I can turn the power to it on and off. There
is a significant effort involved in walking to the switch and flicking it,
since I have to expend energy to do so. But I don't have the "raw electrical
energy ravaging my body" while the light is on. I am the controller, not
the conduit. A power surge will trash the light bulb, not me.

And I still think we should take this to e-mail, but this DOS mailer is
rather unreliable at changing REPLY-TO addresses.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 217
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 22:33:59 -0400
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Several points:

First edition Grimoire is so thoroughly obsolete that it's the only
first edition supplement that had to be completely rewritten for the
second edition.

Second edition Grimoire supercedes everything about magic in second
edition Shadowrun.

Clarifications made by a game's publisher on ambiguous issues are
generally considered to be accurate, as they tend to know the workings
of the game better than anyone else.

You may not agree with these points, but that will generally place you
in the minority.

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ of skin.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \
Message no. 218
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding Spells
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 16:28:04 -0500
On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:

> Rat, you can call on outside resources all you like, but I don't have
> Grimoire II and I've never spoken to Paul, Tom, or any other FASA
> developer. I *have* read the SRII rulebook and the second ed Grimoire

Point of order...when we say "Grimoire II" we mean "second edition
Grimoire", not Awakenings.

--Craig

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Grounding Spells, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!