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Message no. 1
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:52:09 GMT
The Digital Mage (mn3rge@****.AC.UK) wrote:
: Um, as I stated before and I actually looked it up last night :) nowhere
: ...
: And I belive you could also ground out physical illusions such as stink,
: and how could that be as a stink spell couldn't physically destroy a foci.
: Just my opinion of course, no offence meant guv!

None taken, but as I pointed out earlier: Ground always destroys the
magical bonding/link as well as the astral part of the focus. The
physical part doesn't have to but CAN be destroyed (a EE:fire spell
through a "bunch-o-feathers" spell lock will most certainly destroy
the lock).

But to get back to the point:
What about a mage that is used for grounding ? In my opinion he has to
be killed and if that spell kills him instantly it might ground
through to the physical world. Just as it is with foci: The magical
part (the soul, the life) is destroyed but the merely physical part
(the dead piece of meat lying around) doesn't have to be destroyed.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:06:01 -0500
Georg Greve wrote:

> The Digital Mage (mn3rge@****.AC.UK) wrote:
> : Um, as I stated before and I actually looked it up last night :) nowhere
> : ...
> : And I belive you could also ground out physical illusions such as stink,
> : and how could that be as a stink spell couldn't physically destroy a foci.
> : Just my opinion of course, no offence meant guv!

> None taken, but as I pointed out earlier: Ground always destroys the
> magical bonding/link as well as the astral part of the focus. The
> physical part doesn't have to but CAN be destroyed (a EE:fire spell
> through a "bunch-o-feathers" spell lock will most certainly destroy
> the lock).

I would rule that the focus would need to be rebonded if it were
grounded through, but whether or not it was still able to be used as a
focus (if rebonded) would rely upon whether the spell that grounded
through the focus has the capability to destroy whatever the focus is
made out of. This would be purely gm ruling.

> But to get back to the point:
> What about a mage that is used for grounding ? In my opinion he has to
> be killed and if that spell kills him instantly it might ground
> through to the physical world. Just as it is with foci: The magical
> part (the soul, the life) is destroyed but the merely physical part
> (the dead piece of meat lying around) doesn't have to be destroyed.

I wouldn't rule that the mage would have to be killed to be grounded
through. I would treat the mage the same as I would a focus...he MAY be
killed, but he may just be damaged...either way, an area of affect fire
spell would be nasty!

GM: You see flames erupt from WITHIN the party mage...you are standing
near him, so roll your body.

Evil. :)

--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 3
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 16:22:05 GMT
Georg Greve writes

> But to get back to the point:
> What about a mage that is used for grounding ? In my opinion he has to
> be killed and if that spell kills him instantly it might ground
> through to the physical world. Just as it is with foci: The magical
> part (the soul, the life) is destroyed but the merely physical part
> (the dead piece of meat lying around) doesn't have to be destroyed.
>
My opinion is that the spell has to affect the mage.
If he take no damage it doesn't ground, if he gets hurt it does. It
need not kill him to ground out, however unless he's percepting or
dead close to his body folks nearby are probably safe as by aura
synching the caster still has to be able to see folks near the mages
body to hurt them. Projecting mages therefore arn't too likely to
kill you by blowing up, foci though give the bad guy the chance to
'co,e sit on top of the mage and ground something' which gets a whole
lot more fun, especially if that was a fireball and theres ammo lying
about near ground zero BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!

Mark
Message no. 4
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 18:51:43 GMT
Justin Pinnow (jpinnow@*****.edu) wrote:
: I wouldn't rule that the mage would have to be killed to be grounded
: through. I would treat the mage the same as I would a focus...he MAY be
: killed, but he may just be damaged...either way, an area of affect fire
: spell would be nasty!

Hmmm... I see grounding this way (at least that's what I got out of
the books): You force the spell through a link that was not designed
to be used this way and if you succeed in doing so the link is
destoyed by the raw force you applied to it. This is the cause why the
magical part of a focus is destroyed by grounding through it. In the
case of a projecting mage the magical part is his aura/his soul & the
link between soul and body... that means if you succeed in grounding
through the link is destroyed, his soul is torn apart and his aura
simply fades away - you could look at it from the other way though: In
order to be able to abuse the soul-body link of a mage for grounding
you got to overcome his resistance completely and kill him that way.

Everything IMHO, of course.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 5
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:04:35 +0000
On 10 Dec 96 at 11:06, Justin Pinnow wrote:
[snip grounding through a magician]
> I wouldn't rule that the mage would have to be killed to be grounded
> through. I would treat the mage the same as I would a focus...he MAY be
> killed, but he may just be damaged...either way, an area of affect fire
> spell would be nasty!
>
> GM: You see flames erupt from WITHIN the party mage...you are standing
> near him, so roll your body.
>
> Evil. :)
No - normal. Evil was when I first used an initiated attacker - the team _did_
think they were safe at six meters distance from their magician, medpack in
hand. They were _really_ surprised - AND toast :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 6
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 12:04:35 +0000
On 10 Dec 96 at 16:22, Mark Steedman wrote:
[snip - does the magician need to be killed to be grounded through?]
> My opinion is that the spell has to affect the mage.
Since only combat, health, illusion, and detection can be used as grounding
spells (SRII, p. 139, "Due to the nature of how this effect works,
manipulation spells cannot be used in this manner") you will have to use the
the attribute used as TN for the spell, ie. will for mana-based combat spells,
or bod for physical combat spells.

> If he take no damage it doesn't ground, if he gets hurt it does. It
> need not kill him to ground out, however unless he's percepting or
> dead close to his body folks nearby are probably safe as by aura
> synching the caster still has to be able to see folks near the mages
> body to hurt them. Projecting mages therefore arn't too likely to
> kill you by blowing up, foci though give the bad guy the chance to
> 'co,e sit on top of the mage and ground something' which gets a whole
> lot more fun, especially if that was a fireball and theres ammo lying
> about near ground zero BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
Not that I understood all you said... but...
As long as the caster of the spell-to-ground gets more successes then the
magician-to-be-victim, the spell grounds out.

With foci, this would mean their link to astral space would be broken (again
SRII, p. 139), this _might_ be a bit... brutal to do to magicians permanently,
but in any case, the spell would ground out even if the magician is not
killed. This means you CAN cast a "Decrease Charisma -4" through a astrally
perceiving magician, even if it doesn't kill the victim, as long as you
achieve more successes as your victim.

Was this what you meant?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 7
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:35:06 GMT
Sascha Pabst writes

> On 10 Dec 96 at 16:22, Mark Steedman wrote:
> [snip - does the magician need to be killed to be grounded through?]
> > My opinion is that the spell has to affect the mage.
> Since only combat, health, illusion, and detection can be used as grounding
> spells (SRII, p. 139, "Due to the nature of how this effect works,
> manipulation spells cannot be used in this manner") you will have to use the
> the attribute used as TN for the spell, ie. will for mana-based combat spells,
> or bod for physical combat spells.
>
True, which means grounding through initiates is very hard work
generally.

> > If he take no damage it doesn't ground, if he gets hurt it does. It
> > need not kill him to ground out, however unless he's percepting or
> > dead close to his body folks nearby are probably safe as by aura
> > synching the caster still has to be able to see folks near the mages
> > body to hurt them. Projecting mages therefore arn't too likely to
> > kill you by blowing up, foci though give the bad guy the chance to
> > 'co,e sit on top of the mage and ground something' which gets a whole
> > lot more fun, especially if that was a fireball and theres ammo lying
> > about near ground zero BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!
> Not that I understood all you said... but...
ok so it was complex and typed at speed, lack of time strikes again!

> As long as the caster of the spell-to-ground gets more successes then the
> magician-to-be-victim, the spell grounds out.
>
Thats my interpretation. Actually thats more like it. I had said he
takes damage. (i rule you have to stage splls all the way down so
shielding is not immunity to force 6 magic) so by the book these are
the same thing actually.

> With foci, this would mean their link to astral space would be broken (again
> SRII, p. 139), this _might_ be a bit... brutal to do to magicians permanently,
> but in any case, the spell would ground out even if the magician is not
> killed.
Yes as breaking the magician link to the astral for having a spell
grounded through him would make astral perception a never use ability!
Thats far too nasty.

> This means you CAN cast a "Decrease Charisma -4" through a astrally
> perceiving magician, even if it doesn't kill the victim, as long as you
> achieve more successes as your victim.
Yes. however you cannot sustian it wihile astrally projecting which
makes it a mute point!

>
> Was this what you meant?
>
pretty much.

> Sascha
>
Mark
Message no. 8
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:36:12 GMT
Mark Steedman (M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk) wrote:
: > As long as the caster of the spell-to-ground gets more successes then the
: > magician-to-be-victim, the spell grounds out.
: Thats my interpretation. Actually thats more like it. I had said he
: takes damage. (i rule you have to stage splls all the way down so
: shielding is not immunity to force 6 magic) so by the book these are
: the same thing actually.

I don't know... in my eyes that has some similarity to that christian
being a virgin and a mother thing.

: > With foci, this would mean their link to astral space would be broken (again
: > SRII, p. 139), this _might_ be a bit... brutal to do to magicians permanently,
: > but in any case, the spell would ground out even if the magician is not
: > killed.
: Yes as breaking the magician link to the astral for having a spell
: grounded through him would make astral perception a never use ability!
: Thats far too nasty.

Uhm - but it is what would result out of your view as far as I
understood it. A link is always destroyed by grounding through - this
means if you ground through a magician using astral perception you
destroy his link to the astral as well. I always thought that is o.k.,
because in my eyes you got to kill the mage in order to overcome his
resistance & ground through - and dead mages do not complain about
losing astral perception. *grin* If we take your approach you could
take a spell that lets you gain successes very easily and use it to
"turn off" the other mages astral perception... this is a bit, uhm,
strange in my eyes.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 9
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 13:42:26 -0500
Georg Greve wrote:
>
> Mark Steedman (M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk) wrote:

> : > As long as the caster of the spell-to-ground gets more successes then the
> : > magician-to-be-victim, the spell grounds out.

> : Thats my interpretation. Actually thats more like it. I had said he
> : takes damage. (i rule you have to stage splls all the way down so
> : shielding is not immunity to force 6 magic) so by the book these are
> : the same thing actually.

Isn't that what shielding is, though? Just extra dice to resist a
spell? (No, I haven't forgotten about increased attribute ratings, but
that wasn't the point.) ;)

> I don't know... in my eyes that has some similarity to that christian
> being a virgin and a mother thing.

Ooo! Ooo! Careful! Religion and the denouncement thereof in whole or
in part is extremely taboo on this list. Watch yourself. :)

> : > With foci, this would mean their link to astral space would be broken (again
> : > SRII, p. 139), this _might_ be a bit... brutal to do to magicians permanently,
> : > but in any case, the spell would ground out even if the magician is not
> : > killed.

> : Yes as breaking the magician link to the astral for having a spell
> : grounded through him would make astral perception a never use ability!
> : Thats far too nasty.

> Uhm - but it is what would result out of your view as far as I
> understood it. A link is always destroyed by grounding through - this
> means if you ground through a magician using astral perception you
> destroy his link to the astral as well. I always thought that is o.k.,
> because in my eyes you got to kill the mage in order to overcome his
> resistance & ground through - and dead mages do not complain about
> losing astral perception. *grin* If we take your approach you could
> take a spell that lets you gain successes very easily and use it to
> "turn off" the other mages astral perception... this is a bit, uhm,
> strange in my eyes.

Exactly why I say that grounding through a living being (as compared to
living entity on the astral) only damages the being (and perhaps those
around him), not any links to the astral. As I posted earlier, I feel
the link between a living being's astral presence and their meat body is
"stronger" than the link between their aura and a magical item. Thus,
it wouldn't be destroyed or even damaged, but the mage would possibly be
crispy.

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 10
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 20:31:19 GMT
Justin Pinnow (jpinnow@*****.edu) wrote:
: Ooo! Ooo! Careful! Religion and the denouncement thereof in whole or
: in part is extremely taboo on this list. Watch yourself. :)

Ooops. Didn't mean it that way... but grounding through something
without destroying it HAS some similarity.

: Exactly why I say that grounding through a living being (as compared to
: living entity on the astral) only damages the being (and perhaps those
: around him), not any links to the astral. As I posted earlier, I feel

Huh ? That is like saying "The red light is burning when we have an
accident", so "if we unscrew the red light there can't be an accident
because there is no red light".

: the link between a living being's astral presence and their meat body is
: "stronger" than the link between their aura and a magical item. Thus,
: it wouldn't be destroyed or even damaged, but the mage would possibly be
: crispy.

Grounding is just a violent abuse that burns out the link you used for
it... at least that's how grounding is described/how I understood it.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 11
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:11:36 -0500
Georg Greve wrote:

> Justin Pinnow (jpinnow@*****.edu) wrote:
> : Ooo! Ooo! Careful! Religion and the denouncement thereof in whole or
> : in part is extremely taboo on this list. Watch yourself. :)

> Ooops. Didn't mean it that way... but grounding through something
> without destroying it HAS some similarity.

In your opinion...see below. :)

> : Exactly why I say that grounding through a living being (as compared to
> : living entity on the astral) only damages the being (and perhaps those
> : around him), not any links to the astral. As I posted earlier, I feel

> Huh ? That is like saying "The red light is burning when we have an
> accident", so "if we unscrew the red light there can't be an accident
> because there is no red light".

Not the same thing...see below.

> : the link between a living being's astral presence and their meat body is
> : "stronger" than the link between their aura and a magical item. Thus,
> : it wouldn't be destroyed or even damaged, but the mage would possibly be
> : crispy.

> Grounding is just a violent abuse that burns out the link you used for
> it... at least that's how grounding is described/how I understood it.

<Snip>

Okay. I don't see why grounding through a link is necessarily "abusive"
of the link or anything else. It may very well be just another way to
utilize a link. The fact that a link must be destroyed to be grounded
through has no precidence when it comes to living beings...only physical
objects. Even then, it only destroys the current link....that means the
item can still be rebonded...it isn't necessarily destroyed. Also, as
you well know, Shadowrun isn't very good at allowing you to cast a
single spell to completely kill someone....same with guns, etc. It
usually takes a couple of hits. Thus, by your definition of what is
required to ground through a living being, it would almost never happen
anyway. Thus, mages would have almost nothing to fear by being astrally
active all the time because the chances of a mage awaiting them on the
astral being able to cast a spell that would completely overcome their
resistance and do deadly damage is pretty darn slim.

Just my opinion. :)

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 12
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 21:46:57 GMT
Justin Pinnow (jpinnow@*****.edu) wrote:
: Okay. I don't see why grounding through a link is necessarily "abusive"
: of the link or anything else. It may very well be just another way to

Maybe because it is the way grounding is introduced and explained in
the SR books ? But of course there is even more to it (see new thought).

: utilize a link. The fact that a link must be destroyed to be grounded
: through has no precidence when it comes to living beings...only physical
: objects. Even then, it only destroys the current link....that means the
: item can still be rebonded...it isn't necessarily destroyed. Also, as

Right. The corpse isn't necessarily destroyed - but the magical/soul
part is.

: you well know, Shadowrun isn't very good at allowing you to cast a
: single spell to completely kill someone....same with guns, etc. It
: usually takes a couple of hits. Thus, by your definition of what is
: required to ground through a living being, it would almost never happen
: anyway. Thus, mages would have almost nothing to fear by being astrally
: active all the time because the chances of a mage awaiting them on the
: astral being able to cast a spell that would completely overcome their
: resistance and do deadly damage is pretty darn slim.

Not if they already have 9 points of damage on both condition
monitors... ;-) ...then you could easily cast a spell that will
completely kill the other guy and then ground through.

And by the way: Although this shouldn't be a "rules" argument (novels
never really are), take a look at the T-Bird fight in "Nights Pawn" (I
think it was that book) where they start fearing for grounded-through
spells when the mage is weakening. They fear she could be overcome
(killed) and the fading link between soul and body could then be used
for grounding through. This is how it makes perfect sense in my
eyes.

And a completely new thought: If grounding through weren't a terribly
abusive thing you could pull off stunts like having one Mage or PhysAd
there with Astral Perception going somewhere because he is known not
to have any agressive spells/powers and let another mage use his link
for grounding some spell through... even if you say "consciously
allowing" doesn't work (although I don't see why it shouldn't if it is
no abuse of the link as you say) you could still lower your resistance
because you know grounding through is not going to kill you. It isn't
even going to do you any harm...

: Just my opinion. :)

Isn't it always ? ;-)

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 13
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 08:26:39 -0500
Georg Greve wrote:

> Justin Pinnow (jpinnow@*****.edu) wrote:
> : Okay. I don't see why grounding through a link is necessarily "abusive"
> : of the link or anything else. It may very well be just another way to

> Maybe because it is the way grounding is introduced and explained in
> the SR books ? But of course there is even more to it (see new thought).

> : utilize a link. The fact that a link must be destroyed to be grounded
> : through has no precidence when it comes to living beings...only physical
> : objects. Even then, it only destroys the current link....that means the
> : item can still be rebonded...it isn't necessarily destroyed. Also, as

> Right. The corpse isn't necessarily destroyed - but the magical/soul
> part is.

I don't see why the soul is considered destroyable as a physical object,
but the body is not. That doesn't make sense to me. My argument was
that the being's link with their spirit is not a material object that
can be destroyed via grounding. Thus, their body can take damage, but
not their spirit (or link to it).

> : you well know, Shadowrun isn't very good at allowing you to cast a
> : single spell to completely kill someone....same with guns, etc. It
> : usually takes a couple of hits. Thus, by your definition of what is
> : required to ground through a living being, it would almost never happen
> : anyway. Thus, mages would have almost nothing to fear by being astrally
> : active all the time because the chances of a mage awaiting them on the
> : astral being able to cast a spell that would completely overcome their
> : resistance and do deadly damage is pretty darn slim.

> Not if they already have 9 points of damage on both condition
> monitors... ;-) ...then you could easily cast a spell that will
> completely kill the other guy and then ground through.

If you have 9 boxes of damage in each condition monitor and you enter
astral space, you DESERVE to be killed. Besides, you don't need to
ground to do it...a quick astral combat will do the trick too. ;)

However, the point I made still stands.

> And by the way: Although this shouldn't be a "rules" argument (novels
> never really are), take a look at the T-Bird fight in "Nights Pawn" (I
> think it was that book) where they start fearing for grounded-through
> spells when the mage is weakening. They fear she could be overcome
> (killed) and the fading link between soul and body could then be used
> for grounding through. This is how it makes perfect sense in my
> eyes.

Since this is a book, the author has creative liscense. This
description can be used to support your views of the astral link between
body and spirit, but don't expect others to do the same. ;)

Also, using the above example (I'm only going on what you wrote, because
I haven't read that particular novel), the astral link can be used for
grounding more easily because it has been weakened. That doesn't mean
that grounding through the link would weaken it further, nor does it
mean that the link can be destroyed by grounding through it. All it
means is that the mage is more vulnerable to grounding due to his
weakened state....you can describe it however you like, but the game
term effect is still the same as I mentioned.

> And a completely new thought: If grounding through weren't a terribly
> abusive thing you could pull off stunts like having one Mage or PhysAd
> there with Astral Perception going somewhere because he is known not
> to have any agressive spells/powers and let another mage use his link
> for grounding some spell through... even if you say "consciously
> allowing" doesn't work (although I don't see why it shouldn't if it is
> no abuse of the link as you say) you could still lower your resistance
> because you know grounding through is not going to kill you. It isn't
> even going to do you any harm...

Uh, no. :) If you don't ground through successfully, NO ONE would take
any damage (except maybe the casting mage due to drain). Thus, it would
be a completely wasted effort. Sure, have your psycho magical duo
ground through each other, but if mage a succeeds in grounding through
mage b, then mage b will take damage from the spell (and so would anyone
close to mage b, if it was an area effect spell).

Also, your body and willpower would resist spells as normal...I don't
see how there is a way to voluntarily allow yourself to not
resist....you can choose not to use spell defense, etc., but your
attributes will always do their best.

> : Just my opinion. :)

> Isn't it always ? ;-)

Yep. :)

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 14
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:32:07 GMT
Georg Greve writes
>
> And a completely new thought: If grounding through weren't a terribly
> abusive thing you could pull off stunts like having one Mage or PhysAd
> there with Astral Perception going somewhere because he is known not
> to have any agressive spells/powers and let another mage use his link
> for grounding some spell through... even if you say "consciously
> allowing" doesn't work (although I don't see why it shouldn't if it is
> no abuse of the link as you say)
This is discussed in awakenings with respect to spirits.

> you could still lower your resistance
> because you know grounding through is not going to kill you. It isn't
> even going to do you any harm...
The fireball however is another story entirely! :)

Note there are only 3 standard spells that go area effect when
grounded, powerball, fireball and hellblast, the rest are
manipulations and won't dround or mana or sustained etc etc. All
these hurt the poor epicenter like mad :)

However the research power area stun spell makes life real fun :)

Mark
Message no. 15
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 17:05:39 GMT
Justin Pinnow (jpinnow@*****.edu) wrote:
: I don't see why the soul is considered destroyable as a physical object,
: but the body is not. That doesn't make sense to me. My argument was

The soul is not as destroyable as a physical object - it is as
destroyable as any living/"life spiritual"/magical part/link.

: that the being's link with their spirit is not a material object that
: can be destroyed via grounding. Thus, their body can take damage, but
: not their spirit (or link to it).

Ah. That's where your misunderstanding lies. Grounding does not destroy
physical things primarily. The primary effect is destroying the
astral/spiritual pathway it is using for getting through to the
mundane plane. IF the physical part is attacked at all (it doesn't
have to, although it often is) it is attacked by whatever was grounded
through, not by the process of grounding itself.

: If you have 9 boxes of damage in each condition monitor and you enter
: astral space, you DESERVE to be killed. Besides, you don't need to
: ground to do it...a quick astral combat will do the trick too. ;)

Huh ? This just means that you have to fight someone down in order to
be able to ground through him (just as I think it should be) - and I
didn't say he had the boxes before entering the astal plane.

: However, the point I made still stands.

Sorry, but I don't see that - you just misunderstood what I said and I
think you misunderstood the concept of grounding, because grounding
does not work on the physical part on the first hand. It is like using
a hammer to open a window (whether it is stronger or weaker, bigger or
smaller of a different color or shape does not count): it is broken
afterwards.

: Since this is a book, the author has creative liscense. This
: description can be used to support your views of the astral link between
: body and spirit, but don't expect others to do the same. ;)

I didn't, but I just thought it shows a very good and logical way
about how the whole concept of "grounding through mages" should be
understood.

: Uh, no. :) If you don't ground through successfully, NO ONE would take
: any damage (except maybe the casting mage due to drain). Thus, it would
: be a completely wasted effort. Sure, have your psycho magical duo
: ground through each other, but if mage a succeeds in grounding through
: mage b, then mage b will take damage from the spell (and so would anyone
: close to mage b, if it was an area effect spell).

Sure. But There are several spells you could use for grounding (not
only combat spells - remember: ONLY manipulation and mana based
spells cannot be used for grounding - every other spell could be
used) and you could use a spell that wouldn't really do harm to the
mage you ground through but take out the others

: Also, your body and willpower would resist spells as normal...I don't
: see how there is a way to voluntarily allow yourself to not
: resist....you can choose not to use spell defense, etc., but your
: attributes will always do their best.

Sure. But do you really think that attributes alone will allow you to
resist any decent spell completely ? Just think about area effect
spells like "Decrease Willpower" & "Decrease Charisma" - a decent
version of these spells will most probably take out every non-mage
(with an attribute of 0 or lower you are completely defenseless and
unable to move) while the "grounding post" will just suffer some lower
attributes until he did whatever he wanted to do to the other
characters...

: > : Just my opinion. :)
: > Isn't it always ? ;-)
: Yep. :)

O.k. - this is how I see it and right now we are starting to run
around in circles. So if you still don't see my point you should read
the postings I wrote during the last days - I will only write more
about this when there is something new coming up, because otherwise
this is threatening to become a "I am right !" shouting contest like
other threads did.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 16
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 07:48:19 -0500
Georg Greve wrote:

> Justin Pinnow (jpinnow@*****.edu) wrote:
> : I don't see why the soul is considered destroyable as a physical object,
> : but the body is not. That doesn't make sense to me. My argument was

> The soul is not as destroyable as a physical object - it is as
> destroyable as any living/"life spiritual"/magical part/link.

Okay, this is where our primary difference is. I feel that spiritual
links can't be directly targeted and destroyed by magic, but that
magical links can. I see it as the spiritual link being severed because
of physical death.

> : that the being's link with their spirit is not a material object that
> : can be destroyed via grounding. Thus, their body can take damage, but
> : not their spirit (or link to it).

> Ah. That's where your misunderstanding lies. Grounding does not destroy
> physical things primarily. The primary effect is destroying the
> astral/spiritual pathway it is using for getting through to the
> mundane plane. IF the physical part is attacked at all (it doesn't
> have to, although it often is) it is attacked by whatever was grounded
> through, not by the process of grounding itself.

I haven't seen a description of grounding that describes it as attacking
the spiritual link (or any link). I have seen descriptions that state
that grounding travels via the link, but that doesn't mean the link is
in itself is attacked.

I don't think grounding was really designed as another way to kill
mages. I see it as a way to destroy foci, or at least render them
temporarily inactive and as a way to attack those nasty continually dual
natured critters. Now, when it comes to killing critters via grounding,
I don't see it as the grounding that killed the critters, but the spell
that killed the critters--the grounding was just the method used.
Again, this is my opinion, and may not have any written support in the
rules. We may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

> : If you have 9 boxes of damage in each condition monitor and you enter
> : astral space, you DESERVE to be killed. Besides, you don't need to
> : ground to do it...a quick astral combat will do the trick too. ;)

> Huh ? This just means that you have to fight someone down in order to
> be able to ground through him (just as I think it should be) - and I
> didn't say he had the boxes before entering the astal plane.

I am referring to the example you gave where someone could be killed via
a single grounding if they had both condition monitors at 9 boxes of
damage....I was supporting what you said, but stating that grouding
certainly wasn't necessary at that point.

> : However, the point I made still stands.

> Sorry, but I don't see that - you just misunderstood what I said and I
> think you misunderstood the concept of grounding, because grounding
> does not work on the physical part on the first hand. It is like using
> a hammer to open a window (whether it is stronger or weaker, bigger or
> smaller of a different color or shape does not count): it is broken
> afterwards.

Again, I think you are interpreting grounding differently than myself.
I haven't seen any text from the rules to back it up either way, so I
don't think either of us can claim to be right or wrong. The point that
I was referring to as "still standing" was that it would be extremely
difficult to kill someone with a single grounding. I don't think that
has been refuted successfully.

> : Since this is a book, the author has creative liscense. This
> : description can be used to support your views of the astral link between
> : body and spirit, but don't expect others to do the same. ;)

> I didn't, but I just thought it shows a very good and logical way
> about how the whole concept of "grounding through mages" should be
> understood.

Of course. Again, just keep in mind that it isn't canon and may not
have any relevance at all to what the rules are intended to uphold.

> : Uh, no. :) If you don't ground through successfully, NO ONE would take
> : any damage (except maybe the casting mage due to drain). Thus, it would
> : be a completely wasted effort. Sure, have your psycho magical duo
> : ground through each other, but if mage a succeeds in grounding through
> : mage b, then mage b will take damage from the spell (and so would anyone
> : close to mage b, if it was an area effect spell).

> Sure. But There are several spells you could use for grounding (not
> only combat spells - remember: ONLY manipulation and mana based
> spells cannot be used for grounding - every other spell could be
> used) and you could use a spell that wouldn't really do harm to the
> mage you ground through but take out the others

But that's my point. How could you ground an area effect spell through
the mage that would take out those around him but not affect him?
That's not possible. He's within the area of effect. My point is that
a mage opening himself up for grounding in order to take out a group of
people wouldn't do him much good. :) He would be affected by whatever
was grounded through him because he is within it's area of effect.
Also, since it's extremely difficult to cast a single spell that would
completely overcome the mage enough to ground out through him, this
would be a hard act to pull off, even if the mage didn't mind being
killed or knocked unconscious in order to take out those around him
(remember that overcoming the mage would require filling all 10
condition monitor boxes on either the physical or stun level).

> : Also, your body and willpower would resist spells as normal...I don't
> : see how there is a way to voluntarily allow yourself to not
> : resist....you can choose not to use spell defense, etc., but your
> : attributes will always do their best.

> Sure. But do you really think that attributes alone will allow you to
> resist any decent spell completely ? Just think about area effect
> spells like "Decrease Willpower" & "Decrease Charisma" - a
decent
> version of these spells will most probably take out every non-mage
> (with an attribute of 0 or lower you are completely defenseless and
> unable to move) while the "grounding post" will just suffer some lower
> attributes until he did whatever he wanted to do to the other
> characters...

Yes, but in order to overcome a mage enough to ground through him, you
have to completely overcome him...this is done as I stated above....in
which case, it is very difficult to do, not just ONE spell.

> : > : Just my opinion. :)
> : > Isn't it always ? ;-)
> : Yep. :)

> O.k. - this is how I see it and right now we are starting to run
> around in circles. So if you still don't see my point you should read
> the postings I wrote during the last days - I will only write more
> about this when there is something new coming up, because otherwise
> this is threatening to become a "I am right !" shouting contest like
> other threads did.

Fine by me. I have seen your point, but I just don't agree. I can live
with that. :)

<Snip>

Justin
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 17
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Grounding through mages (was: Re: Spelllocks....)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 16:52:17 +0000
On 11 Dec 96 at 15:36, Georg Greve wrote:
[snip magician being grounded to might loose astral perception]
> Uhm - but it is what would result out of your view as far as I
> understood it. A link is always destroyed by grounding through - this
> means if you ground through a magician using astral perception you
> destroy his link to the astral as well.
Not neccessarily. You _might_ interpret this rule as "the magician looses
astral perception - he has to 'switch' to it again". A spell lock that
survives a grounded spell looses its bonding, but might be used again, after
all.

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