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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 09:05:01 2001
Yes, I have a gun question. Everyone get out your specifications
and jargon, it's time to go to work :)

I'd like to know the real deal on gun and ammo immersion.
Countless films have shown me people jumping into water and then
happily pulling off three shots at the bad-guy, video games have told
me you can and can't fire underwater, but you can always fire when
you get back on land.

What's the deal? Are the guns going to function? Are some guns
waterproof? Is ammo waterproof? Is it a case by case thing? Can
you simplify it into Shadowrun terms? :)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan Choy)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 10:15:01 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott W" <see_scott_run@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: 09 February 2001 9:05 AM
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!


> Yes, I have a gun question. Everyone get out your specifications
> and jargon, it's time to go to work :)
>
> I'd like to know the real deal on gun and ammo immersion.
> Countless films have shown me people jumping into water and then
> happily pulling off three shots at the bad-guy, video games have told
> me you can and can't fire underwater, but you can always fire when
> you get back on land.
>
> What's the deal? Are the guns going to function? Are some guns
> waterproof? Is ammo waterproof? Is it a case by case thing? Can
> you simplify it into Shadowrun terms? :)
>
> ====> -Boondocker
>

Go watch Saving Private Ryan.
Read about Nam.

Modern (20th century) guns and ammo are moderately waterproof; and the
assumption that caseless ammo in SR is also waterproof seems quite viable.

The bigger problem than water is particulate matter jamming or damaging the
mechanism of the weapon. A caseless weapon will have much much reduced
problems from this due to the total lack of need of an ejection port for the
cartridge brass. This is one of the advantages of the current-tech H&K G11
(which is about on a level of nasty with the HVAR, IIRC - hafta find me a
copy of Janes Infantry Weaposn that's more current than 1987... damn cheap
library).

The advantage of the AK-47 and its derivatives (AKM, AK-74, and AKMS,
primarily) over the early production M-16 was that the AK-47 could slog
through mud and still be functional at the end of the march, where the
mechanism of the M-16 would be clogged and jam at a (reportedly) frequent
rate.

Tetsujin no Oni
Jonathan Choy
'Of course I fight dirty... I'm from the Horde!'
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Haase)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 10:30:01 2001
--- Scott W <see_scott_run@*****.com> wrote:
>
> What's the deal? Are the guns going to function?
> Are some guns
> waterproof? Is ammo waterproof? Is it a case by
> case thing? Can
> you simplify it into Shadowrun terms? :)
>
> ====> -Boondocker

In theory, regular ammunition will not fire under
water due to the lack of the oxygen required for a
proper explosion to fire the projectile. The US Navy
uses compressed air to fire projectiles underwater.

If a weapon generally fires from what is called a
"closed bolt", it will usually survive immersion in
mud/water for short periods of time and still fire
accuratly. Ruger pistols are proof of this.

Ammo itself is somewhat waterproof depending on how
the case is designed, but not even mountains can
survive water for long.

In game terms, I would say that a weapon could be
modified to survive being immersed in water for short
periods without causing detriment to the firer.

OrcStSam


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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 10:40:01 2001
Chris Haase wrote:

> --- Scott W <see_scott_run@*****.com> wrote:

> > What's the deal? Are the guns going to function?
> > Are some guns
> > waterproof? Is ammo waterproof? Is it a case by
> > case thing? Can
> > you simplify it into Shadowrun terms? :)

> In theory, regular ammunition will not fire under
> water due to the lack of the oxygen required for a
> proper explosion to fire the projectile. The US Navy
> uses compressed air to fire projectiles underwater.

I thought the major problem with firing guns unser water
was the build up of pressure in the barrel due to the
non-compressability of the water the bullet was trying
to move through.

> [SNIP]

> Ammo itself is somewhat waterproof depending on how
> the case is designed, but not even mountains can
> survive water for long.

True.

> [SNIP]

-Andrew

--

"Try or try not ... or just use a bigger hammer"
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Haase)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 10:45:09 2001
--- andrew_norman@******.com wrote:
> I thought the major problem with firing guns unser
> water
> was the build up of pressure in the barrel due to
> the
> non-compressability of the water the bullet was
> trying
> to move through.

If this were a really major factor, the US Navy would
have stopped using torpedoes. The same physical
limitations would apply to the firing of the torpedo
from the tube into the water, even in a flooded
situation.


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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 11:00:01 2001
Chris Haase wrote:
>
> --- andrew_norman@******.com wrote:
> > I thought the major problem with firing guns unser
> > water
> > was the build up of pressure in the barrel due to
> > the
> > non-compressability of the water the bullet was
> > trying
> > to move through.
>
> If this were a really major factor, the US Navy would
> have stopped using torpedoes. The same physical
> limitations would apply to the firing of the torpedo
> from the tube into the water, even in a flooded
> situation.

The difference between a bullet and a torpedo is the
speed. A bullet is moving a heck of a lot faster and
trying to move the air aside. Also the torpedo
accelerates slower causing less pressure.

-Andrew

--
==============================================================Andrew Norman
andrew.norman@***********.com
eServGlobal (UK) Ltd http://www.eServGlobal.com
Eastgate House
Carr Street, Tel: +44 1473 289 900
Ipswich, Fax: +44 1473 289 944
ENGLAND
IP4 1HA
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 11:25:00 2001
In article <20010209140548.50496.qmail@******.mail.yahoo.com>, Scott W
<see_scott_run@*****.com> writes
> Yes, I have a gun question. Everyone get out your specifications
>and jargon, it's time to go to work :)
>
> I'd like to know the real deal on gun and ammo immersion.
>Countless films have shown me people jumping into water and then
>happily pulling off three shots at the bad-guy, video games have told
>me you can and can't fire underwater, but you can always fire when
>you get back on land.
>
> What's the deal? Are the guns going to function? Are some guns
>waterproof? Is ammo waterproof? Is it a case by case thing? Can
>you simplify it into Shadowrun terms? :)

Ammunition will fire underwater as long as it hasn't been immersed too
deep or too long. The biggest problem is that the pressure surge in the
barrel (it's harder to shove a bullet + a barrelful of water, than a
bullet and a barrelful of air, out the muzzle, so chamber pressures go
very high) can blow it up: some weapons are prone to this, others
aren't.

Other problems are that the action may cycle poorly or not at all, and
the bullets will lose velocity and accuracy very quickly in water.



--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 11:25:04 2001
According to Scott W, on Fri, 09 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> What's the deal? Are the guns going to function?

Yes, they are going to work, though just to be safe you may want to drain
them before firing -- that is to say, hold the weapon muzzle-downward for a
few seconds so that the water can flow out of the barrel. This is more
problematic with small-caliber weapons (anything around 5.56 mm and less)
but retracting the bolt will allow air in at the top and thereby let the
water out anyway (compare it to sticking a straw underwater and closing it
at one end with your finger before pulling the straw out of the water --
the water will stay in the straw, until you remove your finger).

> Are some guns waterproof?

Some are, but in general it's not necessary unless they will be submerged
for a long time.

> Is ammo waterproof?

Military ammo is, because the join between the bullet and the cartridge
case is sealed with a layer of varnish (IIRC). Civilian ammo doesn't
usualy have this AFAIK (for the obvious reason that it's unlikely to be
submerged), and hand-loaded rounds generally don't have it at all.

> Is it a case by case thing?

Depends on what cases you're looking at :)

> Can you simplify it into Shadowrun terms? :)

No need to simplify it much, IMHO. Just charge the PCs a Complex Action to
drain the weapon, and say it doesn't function if they don't.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My ocular organs!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 11:25:17 2001
According to Chris Haase, on Fri, 09 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> If this were a really major factor, the US Navy would
> have stopped using torpedoes. The same physical
> limitations would apply to the firing of the torpedo
> from the tube into the water, even in a flooded
> situation.

I'm not entirely sure, as naval stuff isn't my strong point, but aren't
torpedo tubes flooded before firing to avoid pressure problems?

I would guess that a normal firearm under water would probably still
function, as the pressure behind the bullet is likely high enough to push
both the bullet and the water out of the barrel, but might not cycle itself
if it's gas-operated, or it might cycle itself too fast and/or too strongly
to be safe to the user.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My ocular organs!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 11:25:22 2001
In article <20010209152729.25286.qmail@*******.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris
Haase <orcstsam@*****.com> writes
>In theory, regular ammunition will not fire under
>water due to the lack of the oxygen required for a
>proper explosion to fire the projectile.

Nope - how does the air get into the sealed brass case through the
closed metal breech of the firearm? :)

Firearm propellant will burn underwater, in vacuum, wherever - it's not
dependent on an outside oxidiser.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 11:35:12 2001
In article <20010209154551.27687.qmail@*******.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris
Haase <orcstsam@*****.com> writes
>
>--- andrew_norman@******.com wrote:
>> I thought the major problem with firing guns unser
>> water
>> was the build up of pressure in the barrel due to
>> the
>> non-compressability of the water the bullet was
>> trying
>> to move through.
>
>If this were a really major factor, the US Navy would
>have stopped using torpedoes. The same physical
>limitations would apply to the firing of the torpedo
>from the tube into the water, even in a flooded
>situation.

No, not true. The problem with firearms is that they're designed for use
in air.

Imagine, if you will, a 9mm submachinegun firing in air: when the weapon
fires, the combustion gases in the breech are accelerating a 7.5-gram
bullet plus a column of air that's all but weightless.

Fire it under water, and your combustion gases are acting against a 7.5
gram bullet... and about 20 grams of water, or about four times as much
mass as before. The bullet will accelerate down the barrel a lot more
slowly, but the burning propellant in the breech is generating more and
more hot gas and so the chamber pressure rises higher and higher...
until either the bullet clears the muzzle or something breaks.


Positive-discharge submarine torpedo tubes, by contrast, use water rams
or air turbine pumps with feedback loops for pressure control (the
system cuts out if the torpedo hangs up and back pressure rises too
high), and they spit the torpedo out at relatively modest velocities
compared to bullets.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 13:00:01 2001
Just want to clear two things up here, for my understanding...

> Ammunition will fire underwater as long as it hasn't been immersed
too deep or too long.

Okay. This means that water getting in the shell will do what,
cause the propellant to become inert? Dampen the reaction when the
propellant goes off therefore no firing? I'm curious because if the
shell dries off (which it may not be able to do, I assume they're
pretty tight cases) will the bullet be able to fire again?
Does caseless ammo have the propellant directly on the outside, i.e
will water affect that type of ammo faster than cased?

> Other problems are that the action may cycle poorly or not at all,

I'm not sure about guns... if it doesn't cycle completely does that
mean that the gun can't be fired with manually cycling it?

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 13:05:02 2001
On 2/9/01 11:22 am, Gurth said:

>According to Chris Haase, on Fri, 09 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...
>
>> If this were a really major factor, the US Navy would
>> have stopped using torpedoes. The same physical
>> limitations would apply to the firing of the torpedo
>> from the tube into the water, even in a flooded
>> situation.
>
>I'm not entirely sure, as naval stuff isn't my strong point, but aren't
>torpedo tubes flooded before firing to avoid pressure problems?
>


Torpedo Tubes are flooded so you can open the doors and not so you can
fire them. Remember the torpedo Tube is essentially an airlock. It needs
to be exposed to the air inside the sub so it can be loaded and then
exposed to the water outside the sub so it can be fired. Opening the
torpedo Tube outer doors without first flooding them would cause an
inward explosion of water as the pressure inside and outside of the doors
equalized and if you were at any significant depth would likely damage
the torpedo. Instead the usea controled equalization of the inner and
outer pressure by flooding the tubes. The main difference between firing
a torp underwater and a bullet is the exit velocity. A Torp might be
traveling 30 Feet per second, a Bullet will be traveling close to 1000
Feet per second or more.

Steve
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Andrew Murdoch)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 13:30:01 2001
- Chris Haase <07:45/9-Feb-2001>

> If this were a really major factor, the US Navy would
> have stopped using torpedoes. The same physical
> limitations would apply to the firing of the torpedo
> from the tube into the water, even in a flooded
> situation.

Torpedoes, however, are self-propelled. Big difference between
accelerating through watter via a flooded torpedo tube and suddenly
pressing against water after being fired by an explosion.

--
Hail, Centurion!
Andrew C. Murdoch
toreador@***.bc.ca
http://members.nbci.com/corvisraven
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Fri Feb 9 13:50:00 2001
In article <Pine.GSO.4.21.0102091030240.19185-100000@***.bc.ca>, Andrew
Murdoch <toreador@***.bc.ca> writes
>Torpedoes, however, are self-propelled.

Often not at launch. OTTO fuel (which powers the US Mark 48 and our
Spearfish) produces extremely toxic and corrosive exhaust products, so
you launch the torpedo inert and have it start up once clear of the tube
rather than try to swim it out.

Swim-out launch _is_ used by some electrically-powered torpedoes, just
to confuse the issue :)

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Sat Feb 10 00:40:01 2001
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<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I'd like to know the real deal on gun and ammo immersion.
Countless films have shown me people jumping into water and then
happily pulling off three shots at the bad-guy, video games have told
me you can and can't fire underwater, but you can always fire when
you get back on land.

What's the deal? Are the guns going to function? Are some guns
waterproof? Is ammo waterproof? Is it a case by case thing? Can
you simplify it into Shadowrun terms? :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Here Are two websites that another SR guy found and gave to me. I think they
still work.

http://www.netside.com/~lcoble/dir5/watergun.txt

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Technical%20Details/Underwater%20Firearms

Dragon Claw

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT
SIZE=2>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;
<BR> &nbsp;I'd like to know the real deal on gun and ammo immersion.
<BR>Countless films have shown me people jumping into water and then
<BR>happily pulling off three shots at the bad-guy, video games have told
<BR>me you can and can't fire underwater, but you can always fire when
<BR>you get back on land.
<BR>
<BR> &nbsp;What's the deal? &nbsp;Are the guns going to function?
&nbsp;Are some guns
<BR>waterproof? &nbsp;Is ammo waterproof? &nbsp;Is it a case by case thing?
&nbsp;Can
<BR>you simplify it into Shadowrun terms? :)
<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
<BR>Here Are two websites that another SR guy found and gave to me. &nbsp;I
think they
<BR>still work.
<BR>
<BR>http://www.netside.com/~lcoble/dir5/watergun.txt
<BR>
<BR>http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Technical%20Details/Underwater%20Firearms
<BR>
<BR>Dragon Claw</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Sat Feb 10 00:55:01 2001
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In a message dated 2/9/2001 1:54:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk writes:


> >Torpedoes, however, are self-propelled.
>
> Often not at launch. OTTO fuel (which powers the US Mark 48 and our
> Spearfish) produces extremely toxic and corrosive exhaust products, so
> you launch the torpedo inert and have it start up once clear of the tube
> rather than try to swim it out.
>
> Swim-out launch _is_ used by some electrically-powered torpedoes, just
> to confuse the issue :)
>
Submarines use some type of compression to send the torpedo into the water.
It isn't self propelled until it leaves the 'barrel/tube'. Boomers and Fast
Attacks would play games by sneaking up on the other and firing "water plugs"
to scare the other. Water plugs is firing a torpedo tube without a torpedo
in it. It makes a big noise, which is what sonar guys listen for when they
think their gonna be fired on. Ohio class boats have fun with this since
their blackholes, scares the jeebies outta the other sub captain. This would
imply that subs flood the tubes, open the doors and when they fire the
torpedo they do so by forcing compressed air back into the tube pushing the
torpedo and water out of it, but i may be wrong.

Dragon Claw

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated
2/9/2001 1:54:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<BR>ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;Torpedoes,
however, are self-propelled.
<BR>
<BR>Often not at launch. OTTO fuel (which powers the US Mark 48 and our
<BR>Spearfish) produces extremely toxic and corrosive exhaust products, so
<BR>you launch the torpedo inert and have it start up once clear of the tube
<BR>rather than try to swim it out.
<BR>
<BR>Swim-out launch _is_ used by some electrically-powered torpedoes, just
<BR>to confuse the issue :)
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>Submarines use some type of compression to send the torpedo into the water.
&nbsp;
<BR>It isn't self propelled until it leaves the 'barrel/tube'. &nbsp;Boomers and
Fast
<BR>Attacks would play games by sneaking up on the other and firing "water
plugs"
<BR>to scare the other. &nbsp;Water plugs is firing a torpedo tube without a
torpedo
<BR>in it. &nbsp;It makes a big noise, which is what sonar guys listen for when
they
<BR>think their gonna be fired on. &nbsp;Ohio class boats have fun with this
since
<BR>their blackholes, scares the jeebies outta the other sub captain. &nbsp;This
would
<BR>imply that subs flood the tubes, open the doors and when they fire the
<BR>torpedo they do so by forcing compressed air back into the tube pushing the
<BR>torpedo and water out of it, but i may be wrong.
<BR>
<BR>Dragon Claw</FONT></HTML>

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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Sat Feb 10 06:15:06 2001
According to Scott W, on Fri, 09 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> Okay. This means that water getting in the shell will do what,
> cause the propellant to become inert? Dampen the reaction when the
> propellant goes off therefore no firing?

It will make the propellant wet, and wet stuff doesn't generally burn very
well. Thus, the round would fail to go off.

> I'm curious because if the shell dries off (which it may not be able
> to do, I assume they're pretty tight cases) will the bullet be able to
> fire again?

Yes, but you'd need to dry the propellant, which is inside the
almost-sealed cartridge case. You'd have to take the thing apart, dry the
propellant (better not heat it), dry the inside of the cartridge case,
and then re-assemble everything (and you'd probably have to replace the
primer as well).

> Does caseless ammo have the propellant directly on the outside, i.e
> will water affect that type of ammo faster than cased?

IMHO, yes. However, this would be easy enough to get around by adding a
watertight, but combustible, coating over it. (Which would create another
problem, though: finding a coating that doesn't stick around in the weapon
after firing.)

> > Other problems are that the action may cycle poorly or not at all,
>
> I'm not sure about guns... if it doesn't cycle completely does that
> mean that the gun can't be fired with manually cycling it?

Exactly. You'd have to pull the charging handle after each shot to chamber
the next round.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My ocular organs!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Sat Feb 10 10:20:01 2001
> Here Are two websites that another SR guy found and gave to me. I
think they still work.

http://www.netside.com/~lcoble/dir5/watergun.txt

http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Firearms/Technical%20Details/Underwater%20Firearms

They do in fact still work. Thanks, DC!

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott W)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Sat Feb 10 10:25:01 2001
> It will make the propellant wet, and wet stuff doesn't generally
burn very well. Thus, the round would fail to go off.

:P There are chemicals that burn while wet... but obviously bullet
propellant isn't one of them. Cool.

> Yes, but you'd need to dry the propellant, which is inside the
almost-sealed cartridge case. You'd have to take the thing apart, dry
the propellant (better not heat it), dry the inside of the cartridge
case, and then re-assemble everything (and you'd probably have to
replace the primer as well).

So you'd have to be waaaay desperate. And I'm guessing it wouldn't
be the most reliable bullet in the world after that?

> Exactly. You'd have to pull the charging handle after each shot to
chamber the next round.

What if you do that underwater? Is that going to let water in
places that it wasn't in during the first shot? Will that affect the
gun's firing?

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Sat Feb 10 11:50:01 2001
In article <6d.f4545cb.27b63122@***.com>, DragonC147@***.com writes
> Submarines use some type of compression to send the torpedo into
> the water.  
> It isn't self propelled until it leaves the 'barrel/tube'.

That's US and British practice. German and Norwegian submarines, among
others, use electrically-powered torpedoes that start up in the tube and
swim out under their own power.

> Boomers
> and Fast
> Attacks would play games by sneaking up on the other and firing
> "water plugs"
> to scare the other.  Water plugs is firing a torpedo tube without a
> torpedo
> in it.  It makes a big noise, which is what sonar guys listen for
> when they
> think their gonna be fired on.

Ah, yes, the feared "water slug" - delicious served hot with garlic
butter :)

>  Ohio class boats have fun with this
> since
> their blackholes, scares the jeebies outta the other sub captain.  
> This would
> imply that subs flood the tubes, open the doors and when they fire
> the
> torpedo they do so by forcing compressed air back into the tube
> pushing the
> torpedo and water out of it, but i may be wrong.

Fairly close. Load a torpedo, close inner door, flood the tube and open
the outer door. To fire, water is forced into the back of the tube under
pressure (in some systems, by a pneumatic ram beneath the torpedo tube:
in other systems, by a turbine pump driven by compressed air) which
forces the torpedo along and out.

No compressed air is used into the tube itself - it would be very noisy,
wasteful of air (which the submarine has a finite supply of) and would
create large bubbles to reveal the submarine's position.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan Kelley)
Subject: Gun Bunnies Rejoice
Date: Sat Feb 10 15:30:01 2001
Actually among more modern Sub as in Ssn's or ssbn's
They can make their own air. and here was a thing I
thought up and asked back when I was in Naval Nuclear
Training. But the instructors I asked promptly shut me
up when I pointed it out to them. The best way to find
a Nuclear Sub when you suspect one in the area is to
pay attention to the water tempature... cause it uses
Seawater to cool the steam in the condensor. thus it
heats the seawater. all you gotta do is find that nice
warm water. and do like Kirk did in Star Trek 6. Shoot
the Torpedo up the tailpipe.
but mind you that is just a theory I came up with when
I was supposed to be being a mindless drone.

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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steve Collins)
Subject: Gun Bunnies Rejoice
Date: Sat Feb 10 18:45:02 2001
On 2/10/01 3:28 pm, Jonathan Kelley said:

>Actually among more modern Sub as in Ssn's or ssbn's
>They can make their own air. and here was a thing I
>thought up and asked back when I was in Naval Nuclear
>Training. But the instructors I asked promptly shut me
>up when I pointed it out to them. The best way to find
>a Nuclear Sub when you suspect one in the area is to
>pay attention to the water tempature... cause it uses
>Seawater to cool the steam in the condensor. thus it
>heats the seawater. all you gotta do is find that nice
>warm water. and do like Kirk did in Star Trek 6. Shoot
>the Torpedo up the tailpipe.
>but mind you that is just a theory I came up with when
>I was supposed to be being a mindless drone.
>


This is only going to work if the water is amazingly still and the sub
isn't moving. Even after a few hundred yards the water will have cooled
to within a few 10ths of a degree of the ambient temperature and those
kinds of temperature gradients are not going to be uncommon.

No the best way if you can't get him on the Sonar is a MAD (Magnetic
Anomoly Detector) flying over him. After that there were some experiments
in the 80's with orbiting synthetic aperature Radar's that indicated it
was possible to detect the subtle rise in sea level caused by the
displacement of the sub but I don't know how far any of it panned out.
I'm Sure Mr Adam would know more about this if it's been developed
further than me however.

Steve
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Gun-Bunnies Rejoice!
Date: Sun Feb 11 06:40:01 2001
According to Scott W, on Sat, 10 Feb 2001 the word on the street was...

> > Yes, but you'd need to dry the propellant, which is inside the
> > almost-sealed cartridge case. You'd have to take the thing apart, dry
> > the propellant (better not heat it), dry the inside of the cartridge
> > case, and then re-assemble everything (and you'd probably have to
> > replace the primer as well).
>
> So you'd have to be waaaay desperate. And I'm guessing it wouldn't
> be the most reliable bullet in the world after that?

Depends. I think the easiest way to go, if you want to recycle as much of
the round as possible, would be to replace the powder -- in which case
you're simply hand-reloading the ammo, and that's not particularly hard, as
sports shooters do it all the time. I don't know how well the dried powder
would work, but if it's dried well I suspect reliability won't be a problem.

> > Exactly. You'd have to pull the charging handle after each shot to
> > chamber the next round.
>
> What if you do that underwater? Is that going to let water in
> places that it wasn't in during the first shot? Will that affect the
> gun's firing?

I would guess the whole gun is flooded anyway, so working the charging
handle won't get water into any places that were dry up until that point.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Gun Bunnies Rejoice
Date: Sun Feb 11 07:20:00 2001
In article <20010210202841.15995.qmail@*******.mail.yahoo.com>, Jonathan
Kelley <darknessintheshade@*****.com> writes
>Actually among more modern Sub as in Ssn's or ssbn's
>They can make their own air.

Not quite - they electrolyse water to generate oxygen, and scrub out
carbon dioxide.

What they _can't_ do is generate large amounts of plain air (80/20
oxgen/nitrogen) at high pressure - they have to surface or snorkel, and
run pumps to refill the compressed-air banks when they become depleted
(which isn't often a problem unless they blow a lot of ballast)

> and here was a thing I
>thought up and asked back when I was in Naval Nuclear
>Training. But the instructors I asked promptly shut me
>up when I pointed it out to them. The best way to find
>a Nuclear Sub when you suspect one in the area is to
>pay attention to the water tempature... cause it uses
>Seawater to cool the steam in the condensor. thus it
>heats the seawater. all you gotta do is find that nice
>warm water. and do like Kirk did in Star Trek 6. Shoot
>the Torpedo up the tailpipe.
>but mind you that is just a theory I came up with when
>I was supposed to be being a mindless drone.

Works in shallow still water, or if the boat's very near the surface.
But it's very short-ranged and subject to a lot of error and
misindications.

To be honest, if the boat's shallow enough to leave an appreciable
thermal scar, it's probably _visible_ as a dark shadow anyway...

--
Paul J. Adam

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