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Message no. 1
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Gun damages
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:47:47 -0400
Question for ya'll. What do you think a .577 revolver round would do
damagewise? My guess is around 10-12S. Now, before ya'll start flamin'
me, let me explain why. First off, from everything I've seen, the Heavy
Pistols are in the .44-.45 caliber range. As such, they do 9M. The TKO
of a .45 cartridge is 12. The TKO of the .577 is 29. That's more than
double. Also, the guns that fire this cartridge were made in the 1900's
IIRC. As such, they're pretty much not available(very high availabilty
TN). The article I read stated that one guy spent roughly $7,500 to
convert a reguler revolver(ie the Ruger Super Warhawk) to fire the .577
cartridge. Also, the rounds would probably cost $5 a peice as they have
to be custom made. Plus, the round is so large that you can only load 5
in a cylinder, versus the normal 6 or 8. And last but not least, this
thing was designed to take down charging wild game(ie tigers, elephants,
etc).
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 2
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Gun damages
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:35:57 -0400
Bai Shen--

>Question for ya'll. What do you think a .577 revolver round would do
>damagewise? My guess is around 10-12S. Now, before ya'll start flamin'=

>me, let me explain why. First off, from everything I've seen, the Heavy=

>Pistols are in the .44-.45 caliber range. As such, they do 9M. The TKO=

>of a .45 cartridge is 12. The TKO of the .577 is 29. That's more than
>double.

There's also the number of rounds to consider: most of Shadowrun'=
s
Heavy Pistols have an ammo capacity of between 10 to 15 rounds. That soun=
ds
like 9mm through to the .45 caliber to me.
OTOH, just about all the submachineguns mentioned chamber 9mm amm=
o,
though IRL some of them also chamber .45 ammo, and SMG's do either 6M or =
7M
damage.
The Ruger Super Warhawk, which I would guess is based on the .44
Magnum, does 10M.
The Ranger Arms SM3, which I believe would chamber the .300 Win-M=
ag
rifle cartridge, does 14S. The Barret sniper rifle, which *definitely*
chambers the .50 caliber rifle round, does, what, 14D?
The two Sport Rifles do 7S and 9S. Best guesses are that they =

both chamber the .308 or the .30-30, but that one has a longer, heavier
barrel than the other.
All the assault rifles probably use .223 caliber ammo. They all =

do 8M base damage.
There, you have a list of calibers to consider. Use all of them =

to estimate the damage potential of your round.

Shadowmage
Message no. 3
From: Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:42:56 -0400
> >Question for ya'll. What do you think a .577 revolver round would do
> >damagewise? My guess is around 10-12S. Now, before ya'll start flamin'
> >me, let me explain why. First off, from everything I've seen, the Heavy
> >Pistols are in the .44-.45 caliber range. As such, they do 9M. The TKO
> >of a .45 cartridge is 12. The TKO of the .577 is 29. That's more than double.
> There's also the number of rounds to consider: most of Shadowrun's
> Heavy Pistols have an ammo capacity of between 10 to 15 rounds. That sounds
> like 9mm through to the .45 caliber to me.
> OTOH, just about all the submachineguns mentioned chamber 9mm ammo,
> though IRL some of them also chamber .45 ammo, and SMG's do either 6M or 7M
> damage.
> The Ruger Super Warhawk, which I would guess is based on the .44
> Magnum, does 10M.
> The Ranger Arms SM3, which I believe would chamber the .300 Win-Mag
> rifle cartridge, does 14S. The Barret sniper rifle, which *definitely*
> chambers the .50 caliber rifle round, does, what, 14D?
> The two Sport Rifles do 7S and 9S. Best guesses are that they
> both chamber the .308 or the .30-30, but that one has a longer, heavier
> barrel than the other.
> All the assault rifles probably use .223 caliber ammo. They all
> do 8M base damage.
> There, you have a list of calibers to consider. Use all of them
> to estimate the damage potential of your round.

As I meantioned earlier, I'm guessin' 'bout 10-12S. I jus' wanted other
peoples opinions.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)
Message no. 4
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:05:41 -0400
Tarek Okail wrote:

> All the assault rifles probably use .223 caliber ammo. They all
> do 8M base damage.
> There, you have a list of calibers to consider. Use all of them
> to estimate the damage potential of your round.


Which is amusing, since a .223 can put a hole the size of a grapefruit
in a man's head at 300 yards...


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 5
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:15:55 -0400
Jett--
>Which is amusing, since a .223 can put a hole the size of a grapefruit
>in a man's head at 300 yards...

Hydrostatic shock... and a head hit at 300 yards means that
someone got a pretty good number of successes on their Rifles Skill
roll, thereby staging the damage up to deadly... <g>

Shadowmage
Message no. 6
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:16:22 EDT
In a message dated 8/26/98 8:39:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Tarek_Okail@**********.COM writes:

> The Ranger Arms SM3, which I believe would chamber the .300 Win-Mag
> rifle cartridge, does 14S. The Barret sniper rifle, which *definitely*
> chambers the .50 caliber rifle round, does, what, 14D?
> The two Sport Rifles do 7S and 9S. Best guesses are that they
> both chamber the .308 or the .30-30, but that one has a longer, heavier
> barrel than the other.
Most of the rest I agree with, but, I think the Ranger would be .308 since it
is a semi-auto. The Remingtons could be any of the hunting sporting
cartridges, with the 9S being the magnum cartdridges.
IMO of course, I do mention a little about Calibers on my site
httm://members.aol.com/vocenoctum/rules.htm
Message no. 7
From: Thomas Charron <thomascharron@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:20:23 PDT
>From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
>Subject: Gun damages
> The Ruger Super Warhawk, which I would guess is based on the
.44
>Magnum, does 10M.

I belive that it is the .454 base, which is basically a .44 Magnum
charge behind a .45 shell..

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Message no. 8
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:21:11 EDT
In a message dated 8/26/98 9:07:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
zmjett@*********.COM writes:

> Which is amusing, since a .223 can put a hole the size of a grapefruit
> in a man's head at 300 yards...
more amusing is the fact that other rounds do more than grapefruit sized.
Remember, the .223 was not selected for killing power, it was selected for 2
reasons; 1 because wounded guys require more care than dead guys, 2 for the
same weight a person can carry a lot more .223 than .308 (smaller bullet)
Maybe price came in too.
That is why I why I think Assault rifles should do less damage than other
rounds, though they got the range still.
Message no. 9
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:28:30 -0400
Michael--

> Most of the rest I agree with, but, I think the Ranger would be .308
>since it
>is a semi-auto. The Remingtons could be any of the hunting sporting
>cartridges, with the 9S being the magnum cartdridges.

There's no problem that I know of with a semi-automatic sniper
rifle using the .300 Win-Mag. IIRC, IRL Walther Waffenfabrik make a
semi-automatic sniper rifle in .300 Win-Mag. It's the weapon that the
Walther WA 2000 is based on... <g>

Shadowmage
Message no. 10
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:28:29 -0400
Thomas--

> I belive that it is the .454 base, which is basically a .44 Magnum
>charge behind a .45 shell..

Well, I suppose it *could* be the .454 Casull. Unless I miss my
guess, though, the .454 Casull firearms that I read about all had five-sh=
ot
cylinders, not six-shot cylinders.

Shadowmage
Message no. 11
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:29:17 EDT
In a message dated 8/26/98 11:43:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
baishen@**********.COM writes:

> As I meantioned earlier, I'm guessin' 'bout 10-12S. I jus' wanted other
> peoples opinions.

I uses 7S in my games.

-Bandit
Message no. 12
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 17:21:20 -0400
Tarek didst sayeth:
>Bai Shen--
>
>>Question for ya'll. What do you think a .577 revolver round would do
>>damagewise? My guess is around 10-12S. Now, before ya'll start flamin'
>>me, let me explain why. First off, from everything I've seen, the Heavy
>>Pistols are in the .44-.45 caliber range. As such, they do 9M. The TKO
>>of a .45 cartridge is 12. The TKO of the .577 is 29. That's more than
>>double.
>
> There's also the number of rounds to consider: most of Shadowrun's
>Heavy Pistols have an ammo capacity of between 10 to 15 rounds. That sounds
>like 9mm through to the .45 caliber to me.
> OTOH, just about all the submachineguns mentioned chamber 9mm ammo,
>though IRL some of them also chamber .45 ammo, and SMG's do either 6M or 7M
>damage.
> The Ruger Super Warhawk, which I would guess is based on the .44
>Magnum, does 10M.
> The Ranger Arms SM3, which I believe would chamber the .300 Win-Mag
>rifle cartridge, does 14S. The Barret sniper rifle, which *definitely*
>chambers the .50 caliber rifle round, does, what, 14D?


Actually, the SM-3 fires a 0.650 caliber round...it's mentioned in the
narrative at the beginning of Elven Fire. And a .300 rifle round is only a
7.62mm, which is the assault rifle standard today, and is also fired by most
light machineguns and sniper rifles.

That would put the Barrett in the neighborhood of a 20mm cannon, making it
an assautl cannon with a slightly lighter charge for more accuracy, and AP
ammo rather than exposive.

> The two Sport Rifles do 7S and 9S. Best guesses are that they
>both chamber the .308 or the .30-30, but that one has a longer, heavier
>barrel than the other.
> All the assault rifles probably use .223 caliber ammo. They all
>do 8M base damage.


I'd guess they'd be firing the 7.62, which explains why their damages are so
close to those of the sport rifles. Military armor may have gotten better,
but deer are still the same, so I doubt sporting rifles are going to get
bigger and meaner.

> There, you have a list of calibers to consider. Use all of them
>to estimate the damage potential of your round.


Sort of.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 13
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:06:08 -0400
Duncan--

>Actually, the SM-3 fires a 0.650 caliber round...it's mentioned in the
>narrative at the beginning of Elven Fire. And a .300 rifle round is >on=
ly
a 7.62mm, which is the assault rifle standard today, and is also >fired b=
y
most light machineguns and sniper rifles.

<sigh> The .300 Win-Mag is a very different round than the .308 /=

7.62mm round. It develops a lot more energy, and therefore does a lot mor=
e
damage when it hits. BTW, Win-Mag stands for Winchester *Magnum*.
The .650 caliber reference for the Ranger Arms SM3 was something =

I took to be a throwaway reference, to make it seem like the author
knew what he was talking about. Maybe he does, and maybe there is a .650
round out there. I've just never heard of it.
As for assault rifles, the standard today is either the .223
caliber round or the Russian 7.62x42mm round, both of which have similar
ballistic performance <IIRC>. And 8M is very different from 7S or 9S
damage... <g>

Shadowmage
Message no. 14
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:22:30 -0700
\> <sigh> The .300 Win-Mag is a very different round than the .308 /
>7.62mm round. It develops a lot more energy, and therefore does a lot more
>damage when it hits. BTW, Win-Mag stands for Winchester *Magnum*.
> The .650 caliber reference for the Ranger Arms SM3 was something
>I took to be a throwaway reference, to make it seem like the author
>knew what he was talking about. Maybe he does, and maybe there is a .650
>round out there. I've just never heard of it.

Right. I've recently read an article on 0.50 cal rifles, and those weapons
develop serious recoil and are just about at the limit of what you would
want to shoot. The idea that anyone would buy, standard, a 0.650 rifle is
quite silly, and stories are botched anyways.

Read over the story in Corporate Security, where they talk about Watchers
manifesting and pushing PANICButtons ...

The Barrett "light fifty" can do the advertised serious amounts of damage
at 0.50 cal...

>Shadowmage

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 15
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:34:40 -0400
Tarek didst sayeth:
>Duncan--
>
>>Actually, the SM-3 fires a 0.650 caliber round...it's mentioned in the
>>narrative at the beginning of Elven Fire. And a .300 rifle round is >only
>a 7.62mm, which is the assault rifle standard today, and is also >fired by
>most light machineguns and sniper rifles.
>
> <sigh> The .300 Win-Mag is a very different round than the .308 /
>7.62mm round. It develops a lot more energy, and therefore does a lot more
>damage when it hits. BTW, Win-Mag stands for Winchester *Magnum*.


I know...I know...my bad.

> The .650 caliber reference for the Ranger Arms SM3 was something
>I took to be a throwaway reference, to make it seem like the author
>knew what he was talking about. Maybe he does, and maybe there is a .650
>round out there. I've just never heard of it.

It would explain why the damage for sniper rifles is so much higher than any
other single small arms round in the game, which is why I took it so
seriously. It hits harder than a heavy machingune round, which implies
greater mass.

> As for assault rifles, the standard today is either the .223
>caliber round or the Russian 7.62x42mm round, both of which have similar
>ballistic performance <IIRC>. And 8M is very different from 7S or 9S
>damage... <g>


More assault rifles fire the 7.62 than the 5.56, which is why I'd suggested
the slightly heavier round as the SR standard AR round. As for the
difference between a 7S and an 8M, it's minimal. Both have the power level
to seriously screw someone up, but sport rifle rounds would tend to have
meaner flesh trauma since they're designed to kill and AFAIK not bound by
any treaties concerning rules of war, which explains the higher damage code.
One tumbles and is expected to punch through an armored vest or helmet while
the other is expected to expend into a nightmarish collection of sharp edges
to ensure that whatever you shoot falls dead, fast.

And I'd put the big assed handgun at an 11M and give it shotgun ranges...

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 16
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:03:44 -0400
Tarek Okail wrote:
>
> Jett--
> >Which is amusing, since a .223 can put a hole the size of a grapefruit
> >in a man's head at 300 yards...
>
> Hydrostatic shock... and a head hit at 300 yards means that
> someone got a pretty good number of successes on their Rifles Skill
> roll, thereby staging the damage up to deadly... <g>
>
> Shadowmage

I mean rather, in real life. :) Mentioning calibers and how they
translated brought that to mind, since my dad and I were talking about
guns the other day (I'm getting a .223 and an NRA membership for my
birthday! Yay!) And with a really good scope, I know several people who
can hit something the size of a man's head from that distance, no
problem. But then, that's real life, ain't it? :)

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 17
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:49:31 +1200
Quoth Jett (1204 28-8-98 NZT):

>I mean rather, in real life. :) Mentioning calibers and how they
>translated brought that to mind, since my dad and I were talking about
>guns the other day (I'm getting a .223 and an NRA membership for my
>birthday! Yay!)

Yet another reason to be scared of Jett ... <g>

>And with a really good scope, I know several people who
>can hit something the size of a man's head from that distance, no
>problem. But then, that's real life, ain't it? :)

Hmm, like my GM (who did six weeks of NZ Army basic before being asked to
'try again in a couple of years' for striking a fellow recruit): first day
of firearms training, he picked up a Steyr, got told the basic procedures
(Assault Rifles 2), and hit his mark at 300m, and the Steyr's built-in scope
is only 1.5x ...

Or Val Kilmer(!). Andy McNab (that SAS guy you've probably heard about) was
a weapons instructor for _Heat_, and he said in a magazine interview that
the shot Kilmer made at the drive-in (100-200m with a scoped G-3), he could
very easily repeat with a live round...

But I think this is skirting a no-go zone, so I'll stop now...

Danyel Woods - <mailto:9604801@********.ac.nz>
9604801@********.ac.nz
'No, I'm Chaos and he's Mayhem. We're a double act.'
Message no. 18
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:54:45 EDT
In a message dated 8/27/98 3:07:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Tarek_Okail@**********.COM writes:

> As for assault rifles, the standard today is either the .223
> caliber round or the Russian 7.62x42mm round, both of which have similar
> ballistic performance <IIRC>
actually the new Russo-round is a 5.45 IIRC. Switched for the same reason we
went to the 5.56/.223
Message no. 19
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:53:38 -0400
Michael--

>actually the new Russo-round is a 5.45 IIRC. Switched for the same =

>reason we went to the 5.56/.223

Yet more reason to believe the assault rifles of Shadowrun use
less powerful ammunition than the sport rifle. <g>

Shadowmage
Message no. 20
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:53:39 -0400
Jett--

>I mean rather, in real life. :) Mentioning calibers and how they
>translated brought that to mind, since my dad and I were talking about
>guns the other day (I'm getting a .223 and an NRA membership for my
>birthday! Yay!)

Yeah, my first firearm was a rifle in .223. A Remington 700 BBL,
with a Leupold variable scope. I've since moved up a bit, and I now own
another Remington 700, one of the new ones with the synthetic stock and
fluted bull barrel, in .308, with a Leupold Vari-X III 4.5x to 20x,
parellax adjustable with "rangefinder" function. Nice. Unfortunately, I
don't get to shoot it that often.
And, as you well know, you don't really need a scope to make a
distant shot, as long as you've got a good stable rest and time to aim.
I can hit a target the size of a man's head at 300 yds, if I've got the
time to aim and adjust for the wind, temperature, etc. It helps if I =

have a scope zeroed for 300 yds, though... <g>
There are some really wierd guns out there, too. Just today I was=

reading about someone who was test-firing a rifle made for the .700 Nitro=

Express. Maybe this was the round someone was talking about for the Range=
r
Arms SM-3, but I wouldn't want to fire that round in a semi-auto. My
shoulder would probably break. Plus, it's not available in this country
without a Class III FFL.

Shadowmage
Message no. 21
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:01:26 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Thursday, August 27, 1998 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Gun damages


>Michael--
>
>>actually the new Russo-round is a 5.45 IIRC. Switched for the same
>>reason we went to the 5.56/.223
>
> Yet more reason to believe the assault rifles of Shadowrun use
>less powerful ammunition than the sport rifle. <g>


Understandable, particularly considering how far things have come in the
past 61 years. Of course some folks still swear by their 1911s, and
everyone I know who's shot an M1 loves it, but that's another story.

Who knows...by 2060 the average infantryman may be packing a 2mm caseless,
electrically primed streetsweeper, or a 30mm laser guided grenade
launcher...or just another incarnation of the peashooter.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 22
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:13:50 -0400
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:

->> The two Sport Rifles do 7S and 9S. Best guesses are that they
->>both chamber the .308 or the .30-30, but that one has a longer, heavier
->>barrel than the other.
->> All the assault rifles probably use .223 caliber ammo. They all
->>do 8M base damage.
->
->I'd guess they'd be firing the 7.62, which explains why their damages are so
->close to those of the sport rifles. Military armor may have gotten better,
->but deer are still the same, so I doubt sporting rifles are going to get
->bigger and meaner.

You obviously haven't had to meet some of the deer in my campaign.
Pain in the a$$ player (not a regular) decided to go on a hunting spree in
NAN territory (unfortunately for me, he actually got a bunch of permits to
do it) and killed a bunch of animals. This kinda ticked me off so I sent
the "Deer of Death" into his sights..... the next hour ended up being
truly hilarious. He couldn't kill the deer with what he had, so he went
back to Seattle. The deer followed him (concealing itself when necessary)
and hunted him! Wonder why the guy never came back.... ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 23
From: Thomas Charron <thomascharron@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun damages
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:03:05 PDT
>From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
>Subject: Re: Gun damages

> You obviously haven't had to meet some of the deer in my
campaign.
>Pain in the a$$ player (not a regular) decided to go on a hunting spree
in
>NAN territory (unfortunately for me, he actually got a bunch of permits
to
>do it) and killed a bunch of animals. This kinda ticked me off so I
sent
>the "Deer of Death" into his sights..... the next hour ended up being
>truly hilarious. He couldn't kill the deer with what he had, so he
went
>back to Seattle. The deer followed him (concealing itself when
necessary)
>and hunted him! Wonder why the guy never came back.... ]:-)

<BBBBBBBWYAYAYAYAYYAYAYAAAAAHAHAHA> I LOVE it!! ;-P


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