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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Strago)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Thu Jun 21 15:55:01 2001
While reading Ian Douglas's "Semper Mars" I came across a description
of a fictional gun that's used by the US military. There's two entire
paragraphs describing it and I have a few questions which the list
might be able to answer, but first I'll type in the paragraphs.
"The M-29 ATAR, or advanced-technology assault rifle, was a
direct-line descendent of the German-made G-11s of the 20th century,
firing a 4.5mm ablative sabot caseless round with a muzzle velocity of
over a kilometer and a half per second. With each bullet embedded in a
solid, rectangular block of propellant, there was no spent brass with
each shot, and no open ejection port to foul with dirt, sand, or mud.
The weapon was loaded by snapping a plastic box containing one hundred
rounds into the loading port in the butt, a "bullpup" design that
resulted in a rifle only seventy centimeters long and weighing just
four kilos. The '29 looked like a blocky, squared-off plastic toy with
a cheap telescope affixed to the top and a pistol grip on the bottom .
. . which was why the men and women who carried them referred to the
weapons as their toys.
The caseless ammo was both the M-29's greatest strength and its
biggest weakness. The lack of shell casings to feed through an
ejection port gave the rifle an incredibly high cyclic rate of
twenty-five hundred rounds per minute, so fast that a three- or
five-round burst could have the bullets on their way and dead
on-target before the recoil had affected the shooter's aim. On the
downside, though, the firing chamber was easily fouled by chemical
residues from the propellant blocks. The weapon used a clean-burning
propellant, but there was always some gunk left over when it burned,
and without an jection port or shell casings, that gunk built up fast
. . . fast enough to degrade the rifle's performance after only a
couple of mags."

So, the questions:
1) What is an ablative sabot, and how is it different from your
generic round?
2) Are caseless rounds normally rectangular, or are they shaped like
cased bullets?
3) I'm assuming there's a coating over the caseless round so the
propellant doesn't get on your hands. Is this correct?
4) About the cyclic rate: is this possible? And if so, do the
super-machine guns in SR fire this fast?
5) What do you think about recoil not affecting the first three- or
five-round burst? Is this feasible or dramatic license? And would
something like this work in SR?
6) Finally, the "gunk" build-up from caseless rounds. Is this true? If
you fire four or five magazines of caseless rounds, will there be
chemical residue? And what would the effect be upon the weapon?

Thanks.

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

Down with the Moral Majority
-Green Day
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Thu Jun 21 16:10:01 2001
strago@***.com wrote:

1) What is an ablative sabot, and how is it different from your
generic round?

Look for APDS man... (or on the dumpshock matrix at
http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/special/apds.html) discarding or
ablative... priciple's the same

2) Are caseless rounds normally rectangular, or are they shaped like
cased bullets?

in the G-11 i have seen (in a french old gun newspaper)... rectangular ...
how do u think that caseless ammo increases capacity? because it's stored a
more efficient way...

3) I'm assuming there's a coating over the caseless round so the
propellant doesn't get on your hands. Is this correct?

not if it's pre-protected inside the magasine...

4) About the cyclic rate: is this possible? And if so, do the
super-machine guns in SR fire this fast?
yeah , assuming that a ingram mac10 fires 1200RpM

5) What do you think about recoil not affecting the first three- or
five-round burst? Is this feasible or dramatic license? And would
something like this work in SR?

dramatic license , every action cause reaction...

6) Finally, the "gunk" build-up from caseless rounds. Is this true? If
you fire four or five magazines of caseless rounds, will there be
chemical residue? And what would the effect be upon the weapon?>>

depend on the quality of the propellant...Neverever buy ammo made in china...



---START-GEEKCODE-BLOCK--------------------------------
Vershun: 3.12
GMD d--(+) s+:+ a-- C++ L- E- W++ N+ k-- W---(----) M++(+++) PS++(+++@*****)
Y+ PGP+ t- 5++ X+ R++>+++@** TV+ b+++ !DI !D G e++ h+ I++ Y++
---END----GEEKCODE-BLOCK--------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Thu Jun 21 16:25:00 2001
At 03:59 PM 6/21/2001 -0400, Strago wrote:

>So, the questions:
>1) What is an ablative sabot, and how is it different from your
>generic round?

Imagine the bullet as a dense and needle-like, surrounded by a plastic or
aluminum shell that brings it up to the same size as a bullet. When the
sabot round leaves the barrel, the shell (sabot) immediately comes off,
letting the "needle" continue on it's way.

The sabot increases the size of the round, allowing it to be fired from a
regular barrel. The light weight of the sabot means the bullet can get up
to speed faster. The sabot comes off to reduce drag (the needle-like round
has much less drag then a regular bullet, allowing it to travel farther).

If you go to http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/miscellc.htm and scroll down a
little bit there's a very good picture of sabot separating from a tank round.

>2) Are caseless rounds normally rectangular, or are they shaped like
>cased bullets?

The round is probably round (with sabot it could be square tho). The
caseless propellant could be any shape however, as long as that shape fits
into the firing chamber.

>3) I'm assuming there's a coating over the caseless round so the
>propellant doesn't get on your hands. Is this correct?

Not necessarily. If the rounds are loaded into the clip at the factory
(highly likely) then coating the rounds isn't necessary.

>4) About the cyclic rate: is this possible? And if so, do the
>super-machine guns in SR fire this fast?

Cyclic rates are determined more by the gun barrel then how quickly you can
move rounds through the firing chamber, as more rounds fired equals more
heat which can (and will) damage the barrel. If metalurgic technology has
advanced along with everything else, then it could be possible.

>5) What do you think about recoil not affecting the first three- or
>five-round burst? Is this feasible or dramatic license? And would
>something like this work in SR?

There's already an example of this in SR with regards to LoneStar's
standard issue side arm. It fires a three? round burst so quickly that the
firer only suffers from one? point of recoil.

>6) Finally, the "gunk" build-up from caseless rounds. Is this true? If
>you fire four or five magazines of caseless rounds, will there be
>chemical residue? And what would the effect be upon the weapon?

Yep, that can be a problem. Chances of the weapon jamming would steadily
increase (or in a worst case scenario a misfire which damages the weapon).

Maybe on the second clip the Rule of One becomes the Rule of Two (if all
dice come up 2s or less, the weapon jams). On the second clip the Rule of
Three applies to jams.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Strago)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Thu Jun 21 18:30:01 2001
Graht wrote:

> At 03:59 PM 6/21/2001 -0400, Strago wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> >6) Finally, the "gunk" build-up from caseless rounds. Is this true? If
> >you fire four or five magazines of caseless rounds, will there be
> >chemical residue? And what would the effect be upon the weapon?
>
> Yep, that can be a problem. Chances of the weapon jamming would steadily
> increase (or in a worst case scenario a misfire which damages the weapon).
>
> Maybe on the second clip the Rule of One becomes the Rule of Two (if all
> dice come up 2s or less, the weapon jams). On the second clip the Rule of
> Three applies to jams.
>

Should this be true for every gun that fires caseless rounds? My players like to
use caseless ammo (no shell casings lying around for Lone Star to pick up) and
I'm kinda wondering if this is something I should use on 'em. Shadowrunners, IME
(in my experience) aren't going to know this small fact, and, depending on their
background, aren't going to clean their weapons with very much regularity
(ex-military types would, as a matter of course but I don't think ganger's would
take care of the mundane things).

>
> To Life,
> -Graht
> ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
> --

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

Down with the Moral Majority
-Green Day
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Thu Jun 21 19:50:01 2001
In a message dated 6/21/01 4:32:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
davidb@***.100.100.99 writes:

> >5) What do you think about recoil not affecting the first three- or
> >five-round burst? Is this feasible or dramatic license? And would
> >something like this work in SR?
>
> There's already an example of this in SR with regards to LoneStar's
> standard issue side arm. It fires a three? round burst so quickly that
the
> firer only suffers from one? point of recoil.

The G11 had an astounding rate of fire, but only "used" that rate in the
bursts. During sustained fire the rate of fire dropped considerably,
otherwise the barrel would probably be slag.
http://www.hkpro.com/g11.htm
Assuming their info is accurate, and it usually is. They even have movie's of
it :-)
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Thu Jun 21 19:50:05 2001
In a message dated 6/21/01 4:03:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, strago@***.com
writes:

> 3) I'm assuming there's a coating over the caseless round so the
> propellant doesn't get on your hands. Is this correct?

assumedly, the propellant is a hard propellant, and not a gel or powder that
would easily rub off. IMO ofc
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Thu Jun 21 20:05:01 2001
>5) What do you think about recoil not affecting the first three- or
>five-round burst? Is this feasible or dramatic license? And would
>something like this work in SR?
>
>dramatic license , every action cause reaction...

Yes, but those actions are not taking place in the same time span. Say you
have two identical guns, but one kicks out a multi-round burst rounds in
half the time, and the guns otherwise have the same recoil (backwards
impuls, weight, etc). OK, then acceleration is the same, and the eventual
speed is the same, right? Well, the time (from the first shot to the last)
was halved, so the distance moved (by the gun) must also be halved- RT=D,
right?

However, I'm not really sure this would be enough to result in an effect as
big as an actual reduction in recoil related target mods in SR. SR's recoil
mods could reasonably be said to also account for (or fail to account for) a
variety of other factors.

-Mongoose
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Thu Jun 21 21:55:01 2001
> >5) What do you think about recoil not affecting the
first three- or five-round burst? Is this feasible or
dramatic license? And would something like this work
in SR?
>
> There's already an example of this in SR with
regards to LoneStar's standard issue side arm. It
fires a three? round burst so quickly that the firer
only suffers from one? point of recoil.

The Ruger Thunderbolt only fires in burst mode. It
fires a three round burst. Its initial burst in an
initiative pass suffers NO RECOIL due to the speed at
which it fires. A second burst in the same pass
suffers a +4 recoil penalty.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

____________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Fri Jun 22 05:25:02 2001
According to Strago, on Thu, 21 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> 1) What is an ablative sabot, and how is it different from your
> generic round?

A sabot round uses a projectile of smaller diameter than the barrel, and
puts lightweight packing (called the "sabot") around it to fill the gap. The
result is that the projectile plus sabot as a whole weighs less than a
normal bullet, and so gets pushed faster through the barrel. Once clear of
the weapon, the sabot falls away and leaves a bullet with less air
resistance than a normal one, so it will keep its high velocity for longer.

> 2) Are caseless rounds normally rectangular, or are they shaped like
> cased bullets?

Either. The most well-known caseless rounds IRL were the 4.73 mm (4.92 mm
if you're American) rounds for the German G11, and these were square so as
not to waste magazine space. OTOH Daisy made (makes?) .22 caseless rounds
which, as I recall, have round propellant blocks.

> 3) I'm assuming there's a coating over the caseless round so the
> propellant doesn't get on your hands. Is this correct?

The propellant is molded as a solid block, a bit like plastic explosives
are; it's not loose powder held together by some kind of coating. A round
that has normal propellant inside a casing that burns up on firing is
called a combustible-cased round, but that's only used with large-caliber
rounds such as those for 120 mm tank guns, and there it's so that the tank
crews won't have large metal casings cluttering the interior.

> 4) About the cyclic rate: is this possible? And if so, do the
> super-machine guns in SR fire this fast?

2500 rpm is _very_ fast, but it could be done -- the G11 did 2000 rpm for
its three-round bursts (see below for more about those) but only 600 rpm on
full-automatic. In SR, I'd call this a super machine gun, certainly.

> 5) What do you think about recoil not affecting the first three- or
> five-round burst? Is this feasible or dramatic license? And would
> something like this work in SR?

That's copied directly from how the G11 worked. Its whole mechanism
recoiled inside the weapon, and fired fast enough to get three rounds out
of the gun before the mechanism came to a stop at the rear of the weapon.
This was the whole idea behind that particualr weapon, BTW, and the reason
is used caseless rounds -- cased ammunition would require the spent casing
to be ejected, which made the technique impractical for cased rounds.

It would work in the SR world, sure. Rules-wise, though, I think you're
best off saying that the weapon has X points of built-in recoil
modification, so that you have exactly enough to offset one burst.

> 6) Finally, the "gunk" build-up from caseless rounds. Is this true? If
> you fire four or five magazines of caseless rounds, will there be
> chemical residue? And what would the effect be upon the weapon?

This depends mostly on the propellant and on whatever material (if any) is
used as a coating over it. Hot propellant residue in the chamber will most
likely cause the next round to be fired prematurely, which isn't a problem
as long as you're holding down the trigger, but it is when you want to stop
firing but your weapon decides it wants to empty its magazine first :)

OTOH cold residue might have hardened (again, depending on what you're
using as a propellant) and so prevent the next round from being chambered
at all. This would necessitate cleaning the weapon before it can be used
again,

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: gun questions
Date: Fri Jun 22 05:25:07 2001
According to Graht, on Thu, 21 Jun 2001 the word on the street was...

> The sabot comes off to reduce drag

And lets the firer choke on its dust :)

> >2) Are caseless rounds normally rectangular, or are they shaped like
> >cased bullets?
>
> The round is probably round (with sabot it could be square tho).

A "round" is the complete ammunition: projectile, propellant, primer and
(for cased rounds) the casing.

> The caseless propellant could be any shape however, as long as that
> shape fits into the firing chamber.

But of course, the stranger the shape the more carefully it will have to be
chambered, to ensure it is the right way round.

> Cyclic rates are determined more by the gun barrel then how quickly you can
> move rounds through the firing chamber, as more rounds fired equals more
> heat which can (and will) damage the barrel. If metalurgic technology has
> advanced along with everything else, then it could be possible.

Cyclic rates are determined by how fast you can shove a round in the
chamber, fire it, and remove the empty casing. A long, heavy round will
take longer to load than a short, lightweight one, and so will have a lower
rate of fire. The barrel may get hot, but that affects the _practical_
rate, not the cyclic one.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Conformity is our tragedy
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 05:50:55 -0800
Ok, looking through CC I noticed something. Pistols can only have one
barrel mount and one top mount. I gave an NPC a Manhunter (barrel mounted
laser sight). Can I still mount a silencer on thing?

And another thing, has anyone seen those trigger guard mounted lasers?
Would those not reduce concealability or take up a "mount"?


================Chronicles of TimeKeeper, Otaku fixer

"....but the problem is that if you don't complete the circut, you fry the
hardware."

"So you then complete the circut, right?"

"No, because then you have to worry about the security drones that you just
activated."

"So how did you get past the security?"

"I didn't. I just walked away."
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 11:09:46 +0100
According to Valeu John EMFA, on Friday 21 March 2003 14:50 the word on the
street was...

> Ok, looking through CC I noticed something. Pistols can only have one
> barrel mount and one top mount. I gave an NPC a Manhunter (barrel
> mounted laser sight). Can I still mount a silencer on thing?

A _barrel_-mounted laser sight? The barrel mount is for stuff that goes
onto the muzzle of the weapon, such as gas vents and silencers; a laser
sight would be on the top or under-barrel mounts.

Yes, this system does not account for weapons such as M4A1 SOPMODS very
well... That would have about one barrel mount, one under-barrel mount,
two (maybe even three) top mounts, and two side mounts.

> And another thing, has anyone seen those trigger guard mounted lasers?
> Would those not reduce concealability or take up a "mount"?

That would take up the under-barrel mount, I'd say. The real problem is
that these sights are a lot smaller than SR's laser sights, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: DragonC147@***.com (DragonC147@***.com)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 01:43:29 EST
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
I'm not sure the exact rules on pistols. I thought they could have 1 top, 1
barrel, 1 under, but i'm not sure, i don't have my CC in front of me. Ask
your GM about the silencer/LS combo, I personally would allow it but its up
to them. Although take into account that your silencing your shot but
lighting your target up with a big red dot for everyone to see.

The trigger guard mounted LS would take up an under barrel mount because you
couldn't mount anything in front of them, or they wouldn't work. They would
take up a mount but they would have a smaller concealability modifier
(perhaps -1 instead of -2). If you mounted a small one it could not have a
concealability modifier but would have a shorter effective range.

Hope that helps, if you have any more questions feel free to ask.

Dragon Claw

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Message no. 14
From: iridios@********.net (Iridios)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:40:31 -0500
Valeu John EMFA wrote:
> Ok, looking through CC I noticed something. Pistols can only have one
> barrel mount and one top mount. I gave an NPC a Manhunter (barrel mounted
> laser sight). Can I still mount a silencer on thing?

A barrel mounted laser sight? Doesn't barrel mount mean at the end
of the barrel? Wouldn't a laser sight mounted on the barrel get in
the way?

Silencers can be barrel mounted, as can gas vents. Laser sights
should go on top or bottom mounts.

>
> And another thing, has anyone seen those trigger guard mounted lasers?
> Would those not reduce concealability or take up a "mount"?

A mount on the trigger guard would, IMO, be a bottom mount.


--
Iridios
--
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3/24/03
Message no. 15
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:44:38 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Valeu John
EMFA
Sent: 2003-March-21 08:51
To: 'Shadowrun Discussion'
Subject: Gun Questions

Ok, looking through CC I noticed something. Pistols can only have one
barrel mount and one top mount. I gave an NPC a Manhunter (barrel
mounted
laser sight). Can I still mount a silencer on thing?

And another thing, has anyone seen those trigger guard mounted lasers?
Would those not reduce concealability or take up a "mount"?


------
Unless it says in the weapon description, the integral accessories do
not take up slots, no? I would use some common sense here, obviously.
Also, the laser sight should take up the 'under' mount, not the barrel
mount, anyway.


"I suppose this is what I get for letting rednecks play with
anti-matter; they just don't know when to say 'Okay, that's 'nough!'
Instead, it's always 'Hey' y'all! Watch this!'"
When the Devil Dances, John Ringo

Ian Argent
silvercat@***********.org
Message no. 16
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:23:53 +0000
In article
<DE490A0C634BD7118504000476D544E102690179@*********.constellation.navy.mi
l>, Valeu John EMFA <ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil> writes
>Ok, looking through CC I noticed something. Pistols can only have one
>barrel mount and one top mount. I gave an NPC a Manhunter (barrel mounted
>laser sight). Can I still mount a silencer on thing?

Sure - you can put laser sights in handgrips, clamped to the trigger
guard, or on rails under the front of the slide (Glock do this now) as
well as on top of the weapon.

>And another thing, has anyone seen those trigger guard mounted lasers?
>Would those not reduce concealability or take up a "mount"?

Reduce concealability, yes, take up a mount, no.

I've also seen clamps for mounting tactical lights or laser sights on
the silencers of MP-5SDs.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 17
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 06:05:08 +0000 (GMT)
> Ok, looking through CC I noticed something. Pistols
can only have one barrel mount and one top mount. I
gave an NPC a Manhunter (barrel mounted laser sight).
Can I still mount a silencer on thing?

Actually, John, a Manhunter has an integral laser
sight, not a barrel mounted one. There's a big
difference. Integral means a) it doesn't take up a
mount, and b) it doesn't change the concealability. If
you're using the Cannon Companion firearms
construction rules, though, an integral sight takes up
FCU, while an externally mounted one doesn't. It's a
trade-off. But what it does mean is that the Manhunter
still has both mounts available, and so can take a
silencer.

> And another thing, has anyone seen those trigger
guard mounted lasers? Would those not reduce
concealability or take up a "mount"?

Those'd be considered underbarrel mounts. Which means
that pistols, by the rules, can't use them. Which is
silly, because pistols use them all the time these
days. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, just about every
pistol with a laser sight used by the military these
days has that kind of sight. So you could either
ignore reality, or say that pistols can have
underbarrel mounts (but limit what can be mounted -
grenade launchers use underbarrel mounts, after all ;)
), or just come up with a special, pistol-mounted
laser sight that costs more (for balance, because it'd
be more compact than regular sights), but doesn't take
up a mount.

Btw, is it just me, or does anyone else think the
concealability rules for laser sights are really
broken? I mean, all the concealability rules are
broken to an extent (by the Cannon Companion rules,
you can build a bullpup shotgun that's more
concealable than any heavy pistol - and then you have
all those standard SMGs that are just as concealable
as most heavy pistols, and some that are even better),
but the sights...no, scratch that. It's ALL really broken.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 18
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 11:12:45 +0100
According to Rand Ratinac, on Tuesday 25 March 2003 07:05 the word on the
street was...

> Those'd be considered underbarrel mounts. Which means
> that pistols, by the rules, can't use them. Which is
> silly, because pistols use them all the time these
> days. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, just about every
> pistol with a laser sight used by the military these
> days has that kind of sight.

The military and police don't use laser sights much; if you see something
that looks like one on a pistol in the hands of some police officer or
soldier, it's more likely to be a small flashlight instead.

> So you could either
> ignore reality, or say that pistols can have
> underbarrel mounts (but limit what can be mounted -
> grenade launchers use underbarrel mounts, after all ;) )

I don't really see the problem with putting a grenade launcher under the
pistol. It'd be a grenade launcher with a top-mounted back-up pistol or
something, instead of a pistol with an under-barrel grenade launcher :)
The only real problem would be that the combo would probably have a higher
Concealability than just the grenade launcher...

> Btw, is it just me, or does anyone else think the
> concealability rules for laser sights are really
> broken?

Most likely, FASA was using 1980s laser sights as a basis -- watch The
Terminator: in the gun store, he picks up a pistol with a laser sight
mounted over the slide, which is about as big as the pistol itself. OTOH,
modern laser sights can be fitted into the plates on the pistol grip...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 01:53:06 +0000 (GMT)
<snipt!(TM)>
> The military and police don't use laser sights much;
if you see something that looks like one on a pistol
in the hands of some police officer or soldier, it's
more likely to be a small flashlight instead.

I think I can tell the difference, man. ;) Really, I
was talking about things like the SOCOM and USP, which
have the option of mounting one of those "trigger
guard" laser sights, not saying anything about usage
of them in the military. What I AM saying, though, is
that you won't find any of those big-ass "scope"-type
laser sights that you mention below on pistols used in
the military.

> I don't really see the problem with putting a
grenade launcher under the pistol. It'd be a grenade
launcher with a top-mounted back-up pistol or
something, instead of a pistol with an under-barrel
grenade launcher :) The only real problem would be
that the combo would probably have a higher
Concealability than just the grenade launcher...

*lol*

Well, I'll have to defer to you on that. Personally,
I'd have a problem with any player who tried to do
that - mostly because I'd be questioning their sanity.
;)

> Most likely, FASA was using 1980s laser sights as a
basis -- watch The Terminator: in the gun store, he
picks up a pistol with a laser sight mounted over the
slide, which is about as big as the pistol itself.
OTOH, modern laser sights can be fitted into the
plates on the pistol grip...
> Gurth@******.nl -

I'm sure you're right - but hasn't it occurred to
anyone to fix that as time has gone by? And my
expanded point about the concealability rules in
general still stands.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 20
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:51:03 +0100
According to Rand Ratinac, on Thursday 27 March 2003 02:53 the word on the
street was...

> > Most likely, FASA was using 1980s laser sights as a
> > basis -- watch The Terminator: in the gun store, he
> > picks up a pistol with a laser sight mounted over the
> > slide, which is about as big as the pistol itself.
>
> I'm sure you're right - but hasn't it occurred to
> anyone to fix that as time has gone by? And my
> expanded point about the concealability rules in
> general still stands.

Though I don't know FASA's reasoning behind all this, I suspect it's a
combination of "It's not _really_ broken, so why fix it?" and "Everyone is
used to the -1 Concealability, so why change it?" Look at the cell phones
for another example: a handset phone still has Conceal 3, which is very
reasonable if all you have to base it on are 1980s cell phones, but even
in 1998 I'd put the Conceal of an average GSM phone at 8 or so (and
probably more like 10-12 today).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: docwagon101@*****.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 03:37:08 +0000 (GMT)
<snipt!(TM)>
> Though I don't know FASA's reasoning behind all
this, I suspect it's a combination of "It's not
_really_ broken, so why fix it?" and "Everyone is used
to the -1 Concealability, so why change it?" Look at
the cell phones for another example: a handset phone
still has Conceal 3, which is very reasonable if all
you have to base it on are 1980s cell phones, but even
in 1998 I'd put the Conceal of an average GSM phone at
8 or so (and probably more like 10-12 today).
> Gurth@******.nl -

That may be their reasoning, but it's fallacious
reasoning. After all, as soon as anyone starts to
think about it, they must immediately realise that it
IS broken, and I'm sure there are many house rules out
there to fix concealability. And this is a topic
that's raised every so often in discussions. So how
"not broken" is that?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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Message no. 22
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 16:07:54 +1100
> > Though I don't know FASA's reasoning behind all
> this, I suspect it's a combination of "It's not
> _really_ broken, so why fix it?" and "Everyone is used
> to the -1 Concealability, so why change it?" Look at
> the cell phones for another example: a handset phone
> still has Conceal 3, which is very reasonable if all
> you have to base it on are 1980s cell phones, but even
> in 1998 I'd put the Conceal of an average GSM phone at
> 8 or so (and probably more like 10-12 today).

<snip>

> That may be their reasoning, but it's fallacious
> reasoning. After all, as soon as anyone starts to
> think about it, they must immediately realise that it
> IS broken, and I'm sure there are many house rules out
> there to fix concealability. And this is a topic
> that's raised every so often in discussions. So how
> "not broken" is that?


I would like to know the following:

Has anyone done a new set of lists which gives a new set of more modernised
concealability ratings? Is this legal to do, say just taking the names of
items and giving a concealability rating - not giving any of the other game
stats?

Remember that since concealability is all relative, you would have adjust
things down as well as up so it all remained in balance and you didnt find
your mobile phone had concealability of 50, meaning that if you lost it in
your bedroom you probably wont find it ever again (and imagine losing it in
your girlfriends purse!).

Possible? Done already? Feasable?

GreyWolf
-- Been watching too much Blackadder lately..
Message no. 23
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:54:12 +0100
According to Rand Ratinac, on Friday 28 March 2003 04:37 the word on the
street was...

> That may be their reasoning, but it's fallacious
> reasoning.

Probably, yeah.

> After all, as soon as anyone starts to
> think about it, they must immediately realise that it
> IS broken, and I'm sure there are many house rules out
> there to fix concealability. And this is a topic
> that's raised every so often in discussions. So how
> "not broken" is that?

Don't ask me, I didn't come up with it :) All I can do is speculate, and
fix it for my own game if I think something is broken.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 24
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Gun Questions
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 10:56:52 +0100
According to GreyWolf, on Friday 28 March 2003 06:07 the word on the street
was...

> Has anyone done a new set of lists which gives a new set of more
> modernised concealability ratings?

Not AFAIK, but that's not saying much :)

> Is this legal to do, say just taking
> the names of items and giving a concealability rating - not giving any
> of the other game stats?

I can't see anyone kicking up a fuss over it. After all, in the updated
version of Running Gear I did a revision of some of the legalities for
much the same reason, and nobody has tried to sue me over that...

> Remember that since concealability is all relative, you would have
> adjust things down as well as up so it all remained in balance

How so? Just because you're changing laser sights to -0 Conceal doesn't
mean you'd have to increase their weight to 1 kg, would you? (In fact,
many items would benefit from having both their Concealabilities and
weights changed.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als Michael Jackson een auto was, had hij heel Halfords leeggekocht"
-- Ruud de Wild
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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