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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Max Noel)
Subject: Gun-related questions...
Date: Fri May 31 15:00:02 2002
Hi people...
Okay, so I learned yesterday that my GM had a house rule regarding
weapons firing. It basically says that you require to have a strength of at
least twice a firearm's weight in order to use it one-handed. Now, I
understand the need for a rule of this type (a weakling would probably have
a hard time aiming, say, a Desert Eagle one-handed, plus he'd probably take
damage in the process). But then I had a look at the listed firearms'
weight, mostly the heavy pistols (since my character will wield akimbo
Manhunters). Now... Aren't they far too heavy?
I mean, there is a "steel frame" option in the firearm design
rules that renders the gun heavier. So it means most (if not all) SR guns
are built in some kind of lightweight alloy. Now, a Desert Eagle (one of
today's biggest, heaviest pistols) is made of steel and weighs about 2
kilograms. A Manhunter or a Super Warhawk is supposed to weigh 2.5 kilograms.

So... here are the questions:
- Are the gun weights completely over the top, or are the heavy pistols
actually anime-sized (according to the artwork they aren't) (or perhaps did
I just forget something)?
- Would my GM's house rule require to be adjusted? More precisely, what
strength do you think is required to use a heavy pistol one-handed?
- Oh, and... He's gonna be pissed if I tell him I'm using 20th century
pistols (or replicas) converted to a standard 2060 caliber, isn't he?


-- Wild_Cat, over.

maxnoel_fr@*****.fr
ICQ UIN: 85274019
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Gun-related questions...
Date: Fri May 31 15:50:01 2002
At 09:02 PM 5/31/2002 +0200, Max Noel wrote:
> Hi people...
> Okay, so I learned yesterday that my GM had a house rule
> regarding weapons firing. It basically says that you require to have a
> strength of at least twice a firearm's weight in order to use it
> one-handed. Now, I understand the need for a rule of this type (a
> weakling would probably have a hard time aiming, say, a Desert Eagle
> one-handed, plus he'd probably take damage in the process). But then I
> had a look at the listed firearms' weight, mostly the heavy pistols
> (since my character will wield akimbo Manhunters). Now... Aren't they far
> too heavy?
> I mean, there is a "steel frame" option in the firearm design
> rules that renders the gun heavier. So it means most (if not all) SR guns
> are built in some kind of lightweight alloy. Now, a Desert Eagle (one of
> today's biggest, heaviest pistols) is made of steel and weighs about 2
> kilograms. A Manhunter or a Super Warhawk is supposed to weigh 2.5 kilograms.
>
>So... here are the questions:
>- Are the gun weights completely over the top, or are the heavy pistols
>actually anime-sized (according to the artwork they aren't) (or perhaps
>did I just forget something)?

Maybe the weight includes a full load of ammo... Even in 2060 bullets use
lead, and lead is heavy.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
--
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Tim Mathena)
Subject: Gun-related questions...
Date: Fri May 31 16:00:01 2002
>
> Maybe the weight includes a full load of ammo... Even in
> 2060 bullets use
> lead, and lead is heavy.
>

My understanding of the weights listed for firearms in Shadowrun included the
weight of a fully loaded weapon.

-Rookie
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Gun-related questions...
Date: Fri May 31 16:05:01 2002
On Fri, 31 May 2002 21:02:21 +0200
Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> wrote:

> So... here are the questions:
> - Are the gun weights completely over the top, or are the heavy pistols
> actually anime-sized (according to the artwork they aren't) (or perhaps did
> I just forget something)?

From what I read about it, the people at FASA sort of confused pounds
and kilograms when they made up their heavy pistols. Halve all their weights
to get a "decent" weight in kilograms.


--
Bira -- homem saído das entranhas da Terra para mudar o destino da humanidade,
usando apenas um filhote de urubu e um rolo de "silver tape"...
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Gun-related questions...
Date: Sat Jun 1 05:30:18 2002
According to Max Noel, on Fri, 31 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> But then I
> had a look at the listed firearms' weight, mostly the heavy pistols
> (since my character will wield akimbo Manhunters). Now... Aren't they far
> too heavy?

Yep. I get the impression that FASA somehow figured the pistol weights in
pounds and then forgot to convert them to kilos for inclusion in the
tables...

> So... here are the questions:
> - Are the gun weights completely over the top, or are the heavy pistols
> actually anime-sized (according to the artwork they aren't) (or perhaps
> did I just forget something)?

According to the later artwork, they're anime-sized (which, incidentally, I
don't like at all :) but IMHO the pistol weights are totally off. Those for
most of the other firearms are OK, but those for pistols are just wrong.
Halving them makes them still not totally accurate, but at least more
believable.

> - Would my GM's house rule require to be adjusted? More precisely, what
> strength do you think is required to use a heavy pistol one-handed?

Not sure... You could do a bit of a test, though: have someone hold a
weight roughly equal to that of a pistol (a full 1.5-liter bottle should
do, I suppose) and keep it pointing at some or another target, preferably
at arm's length. If they can do that, then they should be able to hold a
pistol like that, too.

> - Oh, and... He's gonna be pissed if I tell him I'm using 20th century
> pistols (or replicas) converted to a standard 2060 caliber, isn't he?

You know him better than the rest of us, I suppose... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Gun-related questions...
Date: Sat Jun 1 05:30:38 2002
According to Tim Mathena, on Fri, 31 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> > Maybe the weight includes a full load of ammo... Even in
> > 2060 bullets use lead, and lead is heavy.
>
> My understanding of the weights listed for firearms in Shadowrun included
> the weight of a fully loaded weapon.

That still doesn't make sense if you know that loaded pistols (I'm thinking
of military-style 9 mm ones here) for most of the 20th century have weighed
roughly 1 kg each -- slightly over it a hundred years ago, slightly under
it today. Bullets of that kind of caliber weigh perhaps 10 grams each, so
for a full magazine of 10 or 15 rounds, you're looking at a couple of
hundred grams, not a kilo and a half...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Max Noel)
Subject: Gun-related questions...
Date: Sun Jun 2 15:05:01 2002
Okay, that's what I thought. So dividing the pistols' weights by 2
to fix the problem seems to be the general opinion...
Once again, thanks for the input, people!


-- Wild_Cat, over and out (for the moment, but I'll be back... *maniacal
laugh*)

maxnoel_fr@*****.fr
ICQ UIN: 85274019
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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Gun-related questions...
Date: Mon Jun 3 08:15:01 2002
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Max Noel [mailto:maxnoel_fr@*****.fr]
>Sent: Friday, 31, May, 2002 15:02 PM
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Gun-related questions...
>So... here are the questions:
>
>- Would my GM's house rule require to be adjusted? More precisely, what
>strength do you think is required to use a heavy pistol one-handed?

An average adult human strength is around 3. Most pistols are designed to
be used effectively at this weight although some of the heavier pistols will
give this person some difficulty with precise aiming. IMHO at strength 4
any pistol in production today will be able to be used effectively and
safely.


Coyote

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