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Message no. 1
From: "I am wicked, I am Legion" <legion@**************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Guns, guns, guns...
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 10:01:40 MDT
1- I agree with Steve H. on the DL-9; it couldn't be fired full-auto
or burst-fire across magazines. Most likely, there would be a piece
of the bolt/extractor that would have to be reconfigured before
the other magazine could be loaded from.

2- Bullpup weapons; this configuration of a weapon is truly the wave
of the future (IMHO) along with caseless ammo. I can't think of the
proper term at the moment but it's probably something like "consolidation
of resources." Why have something on a weapon that doesn't have a real
or justifiable purpose.

The Bullpup config greatly reduces the overall size/length of the
weapon and since the barrel is then more enclosed by the firer, as
opposed to being all in front of the firer, the recoil has a more
centralized "mass" to disipate it's force into. Not a whole lot more
but a noticeable difference.

Personally, my gun-freak characters tend to use more bullpups than
others. <I kin carry more ammo if the gun is smaller...>

_________________________________
Mike Loseke | Behold, here cometh the Dreamer.
legion@**************.army.mil | Let us slay him, and we shall see
Minister of Death - SWO | what will become of his dreams.
_________________________________|
Message no. 2
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: guns guns guns
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 16:35:43 -0500
Remember, that the very high damage of a sniper rifle is not necessarily
from brute force of the bullet ripping your body off.

The high number also comes fromt he fact that by default, the gun is
highly accurate at hitting vital area (like your noggin).

Thus, while a 7.62mm frojm a normal gun might do 9s, the sniper hitting
you vitally will do 14s witht eh same bullet.

At least, that's how I look at it.

{[> Robert A. Hayden ____ <[} Question Authority
{[> \ /__ <]} -=-=-
{[> aq650@****.INS.CWRU.Edu \/ / <]} Finger for PGP 2.3a Public Key
{[> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu \/ <]} Finger for Geek Code Info
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Message no. 3
From: "Jason Carter, Nightstalker" <CARTER@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 16:07:06 -0700
Robert said:

>>Remember, that the very high damage of a sniper rifle is not necessarily
>>from brute force of the bullet ripping your body off.

The damage is most certainly from high brute force. That's why the Ranger SM-3
and the Walther WA-2100 will penetrate armor that the HMG's bounce off of.

>>The high number also comes fromt he fact that by default, the gun is
>>highly accurate at hitting vital area (like your noggin).

No gun is more likely to hit anywhere in Shadowrun. If you want more damage
from accuracy you take a +4 Called Shot penalty and increase you damage level
by one.

Now here's a scary thought. Sniper is at long range with sniper rifle. His
skill is 8, the rifle is smartlinked with a rating 4 scope. He takes a called
shot, but aims as long as he can. The results:
Target number 2
Damage Code 14D
Target is surprised and gets to use no combat pool dice.

Say good night, Gracie.

See Ya in Shadows, "I can count the number of days I've worked
Jason J Carter since graduation on one hand." - ME!
The Nightstalker Carter@***.EDU
Message no. 4
From: Todd Montgomery <tmont@****.WVU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 00:41:03 -0400
> shot, but aims as long as he can. The results:
> Target number 2
> Damage Code 14D
> Target is surprised and gets to use no combat pool dice.
>
> Say good night, Gracie.
>

But of course! Seems like the rules are meant for this!

Makes that Availability of 12+ (?) mean something.

-- QUiktek
-- Todd Montgomery
tmont@****.wvu.edu
tmont@***.wvu.edu
un032507@*******.wvnet.edu
Message no. 5
From: The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject: Guns Guns Guns
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 02:26:49 GMT
>But I did see something interesting. The efficiency of Cased ammo vs.
>caseless ammo can be large. So naturally I tried to even out the scale.
>I found that at about the SR tech level that a projectile of about
>a 9mm size (cased) could have about the same punch as a 11mm (caseless).
>You really had to work with other gun stats, but it could be done.

Interesting Speculation. If I ever see 3G3 in my store (haven't yet) and
have the money (rare these dayd) I'll have to pick it up.

>Disadvantage is obvious. In the SR time, cased ammo would
>be like saying "It was me! I did it! I'm over here!". I guess you could
>also try and make something like a cased 12mm that would do something
>in the neighborhood of 12M. Comments.

One thing: I don't think the same gun can fire both cased and caseless.
Would't it suck if you found a crate full of 9mmP cased and all of your
pistols and SMGs were slotted for casless?

> 2) Caseless ammo is used because it gets rid of the weight inherent
>in the shells case. This can decrease the weight by as much as a factor of
>2 for large shells. This is why it is used today.

Yet, as I believe Chris Yang pointed out, they're also more reliable since
there's no ejection port for things like mud, dirt, and pez to enter and
gum up the machinery.


J Roberson
Message no. 6
From: Legion <mloseke@*****.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 11:48:24 -0700
Yep, that's right! They're finally done! Sorry about the Bill Gates
vaporware thing there for a while... Live with it.

For those of you who requested a copy mailed directly to them, you should
have it already (if I didn't lose your address...) Everybody else should
be able to get it from ftp.umd.umich.edu in /pub/frp/srun. The filename
is "swo_guns.zip" and it contains pictures of weapons in GIF format, along
with the text file; this contains over 60 new toys for your destructive
pleasure! The file is still in the /incoming directory, but should be moved
to the srun directory in the next couple of days. If you can't wait that long,
mail me directly and I'll send you the file uuencoded in 5 chunks.

Can't wait for the comments!

Legion -- "No, I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere."
MLoseke@*****.ColoState.Edu

Bite me, Fan Boy! -- Lobo
Message no. 7
From: Ioannis Fikouras <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 19:56:34 +0100
> to the srun directory in the next couple of days. If you can't wait that long,
> mail me directly and I'll send you the file uuencoded in 5 chunks.

I can wait a sec longer I NEED GUNS GUNS GUNS :)


PS:could u please send it :)

--

Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong!
Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall.
That is the way of things ... the way of the Force.

GCS -d+@ -p+(---) c+++ l+ u+++ e@ m++(-) s/+ !n(-) h(*) f+ g! w+ t+ r++ y?
Message no. 8
From: Mark Imbriaco <mark@**.ODU.EDU>
Subject: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 15:19:56 -0500
Legion writes:
-- Yep, that's right! They're finally done! Sorry about the Bill Gates
-- vaporware thing there for a while... Live with it.
--
-- For those of you who requested a copy mailed directly to them, you should
-- have it already (if I didn't lose your address...) Everybody else should
-- be able to get it from ftp.umd.umich.edu in /pub/frp/srun. The filename
-- is "swo_guns.zip" and it contains pictures of weapons in GIF format, along
-- with the text file; this contains over 60 new toys for your destructive
-- pleasure! The file is still in the /incoming directory, but should be moved
-- to the srun directory in the next couple of days. If you can't wait that long,
-- mail me directly and I'll send you the file uuencoded in 5 chunks.
--
-- Can't wait for the comments!

Hi, I couldn't find the file on that ftp site, but could you mail me
the uuencoded version? Sounds kinda interesting, can't wait to take a
look! Thanks..

Mark
mark@**.odu.edu
Message no. 9
From: John Fox <johnf@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 14:48:01 -0600
Legion:
I have to say that this is the best non FASA supplement for
Shadowrun that I have ever seen. I'm serious, although I have not seen
many of the Shadowrun magazin articles that seem to pop up all over the place.

I reccomend that everyone get a copy of these files. Basically you get a
text file full of gun stats and descriptions plus some artwok in gif
files. Some of the pictures are scanned from the CP2020 Chromebooks, but
some are original artwork!!! In my opinion the original work is of very
high quality, certainly as good as the Street Samurai Catalog.

Many of these guns are on the high end of the power scale, but the text
does warn you about that.

One problem that I did notice was that many of the scanned images didn't
have corresponding description in the text file. I guess no one can be
perfect. :-)

Finally, I would appreciate if Legion would tell us what exactly theat
"walking eyeball" thing in the logo gif is.

Download this file,

John Fox
johnf@*****.edu
Message no. 10
From: Ahern T Stephan <maxim@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 15:16:19 -0600
How does one access these files. Right now I'm a bit computer illiterate.
Message no. 11
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 15:22:27 -0600
Hey everyone, this is a bit cranky, but I've had a hard day so far:

FOLLOW UP TO THE AUTHOR IF YOU WANT TO GET THE BLOODY FILE!!!!!

It doesn't do any good to post to the whole list, except to annoy
everyone else and make yourself look like a moron!

Got it?

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> To flame me, log on to ICBMnet and
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 12
From: John Fox <johnf@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 15:52:33 -0600
On Sat, 15 Jan 1994, Ahern T Stephan wrote:

> How does one access these files. Right now I'm a bit computer illiterate.

This is what I did on UNIX:

1. I saved (exported in Pine) all the files to my root directory. I named
them guns1.uu, guns2.uu, guns3.uu, guns4.uu, and guns5.uu. Note that you
have to look in the subject line to see which number the file is, since
you might not have received them in the correct order.

2. I typed at the unix prompt the following

cat guns1.uu guns2.uu guns3.uu guns4.uu guns5.uu > guns.uu

3. I opened up guns.uu in a text editor. I deleted the first header info
and the blank lines. I then searched for "From", deleting all header info
and blank lines when I saw them. You should delete five headers.

4. After saving guns.uu and quiting the editor, I typed this at the UNIX
prompt:

uudecode guns.uu

5. This saved a file like swo.zip in my root directory. I downloaded this
program to my Macintosh in binary mode and used the shareware program
Zipit to uncompress the files. I then used a text editor to view the text
file and JPEGView to see the gifs. There are similar programs for other
platforms, most notably PC compatibles.

Hope this helps:

John Fox
johnf@*****.edu
Message no. 13
From: Richard Pieri <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 20:15:05 -0500
In a related question...

...does anyone have any kind of mechanics/formula/methods for
converting 3G^3 weapons to/from Shadowrun?

For those who don't know, 3G^3 (aka ``Guns! Guns! Guns!'') is
Blacksburg Tactical's ``design your own firearms'' system.

|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
| Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/USER/ratinox |
| GAT d@ -p+ c++ !l u+ e+(*) m-(+) s n---(+) h-- f !g(+) w+ t- r+ y+ |
|It's hard to bargle nawdle zouss/With all these marbles in my mouth |
| --`Weird Al' Yankovic, `Smells Like Nirvana'|
|||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||
Message no. 14
From: Warlok <EHULTGRE@******.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 1994 17:44:59 EST
Legion,
Can you resend it to me. The account that it arived at doesn't have uudecode
so everything was just jumbled ascii characters( hard on the eyes..)
If you could send it to ehultgre@***.kent.edu, I'd really appreciate it..

-Warlok
"Pull a rabbit out of your pants!!"
Message no. 15
From: Joseph Block <0006316815@*******.COM>
Subject: RE>GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 02:17:00 EST
In the interest of clarity, I should point out that there is a
(really neat) product out from the BTRC called Guns! Guns! Guns! that
allows you to build any kind of conventional gun, laser, gauss gun,
rocket, particle accelerator, etc for any system. It even has ways
of calculating melee weapon damage so that everything is consistent.

All you need is to calculate a conversion formula for your game's
damage. They included several in the book, but FASA apparently
wouldn't let them include Shadowrun or BattleTech, so we have to
calculate our own (which I haven't gotten around to yet).

jpb@*******.com

He used a .32? Lets just call it assault with intent to annoy.
Message no. 16
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 09:56:45 -0500
Okay, I have a question...

In Yuma, Arizona, there is a weapon called HARP (High Altitude Research
Project). It consists of two 16 inch, 50 caliber barrels in tandem, each
119.4 feet long and weighing upwards of 165 tons. On November 19, 1966, a
185-lb projectile was fired to an altitude of 111.8 miles (590,550 feet).

What's the damage code?
Message no. 17
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 09:59:38 -0500
And before I forget...does anyone know anything about the so-called "Doomsday"
device (I think it's supposed to be a cobalt-salted 50,000 megaton nuclear
weapon). Supposedly it would destroy the entire human race except for people
who were underground and did not come out for at least five years.
Message no. 18
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 11:46:47 -0400
>>>>> "Gian-Paolo" == Gian-Paolo Musumeci
<musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

[big fuckin' gun]
Gian-Paolo> What's the damage code?

Let's put it this way: just about anything it hits at any range less than a
mile is going to be vaporized by the kinetic energy.

In other words, there's no way in hell I'm gonna do the math :).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "I'd rather be a pig than a
fascist."
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | --Porco Rosso (The Crimson Pig)
Message no. 19
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 10:56:13 -0500
How do you do the math? ;-)
Message no. 20
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 12:13:07 -0400
>>>>> "Gian-Paolo" == Gian-Paolo Musumeci
<musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Gian-Paolo> How do you do the math? ;-)

Like I said, I wouldn't. Any formulae I have break down at those velocities.

Let's put it this way: it's damage code is: if it hits you, you're beyond
paste, so it doesn't matter, you are /not/ going to be able to resist it.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | An it harm none, 'do what thou wilt'
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | shall be the whole of the Law.
Message no. 21
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 09:23:50 -0700
The Damage Code is high enough that if anything short of an old time
Battleship was hit by the weapon it would be all over.

On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> In Yuma, Arizona, there is a weapon called HARP (High Altitude Research
> Project). It consists of two 16 inch, 50 caliber barrels in tandem, each
> 119.4 feet long and weighing upwards of 165 tons. On November 19, 1966, a
> 185-lb projectile was fired to an altitude of 111.8 miles (590,550 feet).
>
> What's the damage code?
>
SPLAT! (TOO MANY)D. <grin>

Ivy
Message no. 22
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 11:26:35 -0500
*grin grin grin*

I think about 250D. =)
Message no. 23
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 11:26:44 -0500
Hey, what about nuclear warheads?
Message no. 24
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 09:27:35 -0700
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> How do you do the math? ;-)
>
With a calculator, generally.

((Bullet weight <in grains>) x (bullet speed <in feet per second) / 3) +3 =
Force. And give it a Damage Code of DEADLY

The resulting number will be gross.

Ivy
Message no. 25
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 13:09:48 -0400
>>>>> "Ivy" == Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG> writes:

Ivy> ((Bullet weight <in grains>) x (bullet speed <in feet per second) / 3)
Ivy> +3 = Force. And give it a Damage Code of DEADLY

Just curious, but where did you get this formula, and have you used to to
compare conventional weapons to Shadowrun writeups?

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "It is a proud and lonely thing to be a
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | Stainless Steel Rat."
this space intentionally left blank | --"Slippery" Jim DiGriz
Message no. 26
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 13:10:32 -0400
>>>>> "Gian-Paolo" == Gian-Paolo Musumeci
<musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
>>>>> writes:

Gian-Paolo> Hey, what about nuclear warheads?

You need a game mechanic for these? Yeesh! Try: anything in a 15 mile
radius is gone.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | On the seventh day the Lord said: I'm
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | pooped. You build the theme park.
Message no. 27
From: the holy Entombed <rasputin@***.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 20:06:34 -0400
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Okay, I have a question...
>
[HARP description]
>
> What's the damage code?

7D...

...and the Rule of Six doesn't apply.



the holy Entombed "We could've bought a hundred dollars
Rasputin the (not so) Horrible worth of pudding... And that would've
rasputin@***.umd.edu been alot of pudding...

alt.is.too needs posts... But we had to go all the way... All
alt.znet.fnet needs posts... two-forty, baby..."
Message no. 28
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 1994 20:33:47 -0400
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Hey, what about nuclear warheads?
>
Stay away from them. They're dangerously volatile, and have a
nasty tendency to _not_ stay cripsy in milk.
Message no. 29
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 00:15:18 -0500
> In Yuma, Arizona, there is a weapon called HARP (High Altitude
> Research
> What's the damage code?

A hell of a lot.

Personally, I'd roll for hit location using a random system. If it
hit a finger, the arm would fly off (if it was lengthwise) and the person
would bleed to death. If it hit an arm, it would take a lot of the torso with
it. If it hit the torso, the entire person would fly that 111.8 miles.

(Hint: 5000D+++)
-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 30
From: Tim Skirvin <tskirvin@********.UNI.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 00:20:06 -0500
> I think about 250D. =)

Won't work in SRI. There were auto-successes then...

(Yes, that Tac-Nuke went off. 100D you say? I only take Serious
damage...cool.)

> Hey, what about nuclear warheads?

My damage code...big fragging grenade, damage 17000D++++++++ (those
+'s are important...it means that if they get the successes, they STILL
have to deal with the damage).

Beyond that, don't forget radiation sickness...

-------------Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@********.uni.uiuc.edu-------------
"He's NOT a gibbering idiot - he's cured of gibbering, he's just an
idiot now." -- Jane, "Waiting for God"
Message no. 31
From: Janne Jalkanen <jalkanen@*********.CERN.CH>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:42:22 +0200
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> *grin grin grin*
>
> I think about 250D. =)

(Taking a munchkinistic point of view) Irrelevant, since any mage (with a
suitable set of spells) can patch you up and you'd still be alive. After
all, all you will take is a Deadly wound and if you have a Body of 6, an
hour to find someone to heal you. (I'd really like to see this happening,
since you'd be splattered in atoms all around a mile radius...)

I'd probably give it something like 30D20 (where the 20 is not staging,
but the amount of overkill you'd get. Sorta like extra successes for the
cannon.) That way big ships with lotsa armor (like 25) could still have a
chance of surviving the shot, but no (meta)human would.

Janne Jalkanen ///! For those who have to fight for it
jalkanen@******.cern.ch /// ! life has a flavor
Janne.Jalkanen@***.fi \\\/// ! the protected will never understand
-'Keep on going...' \XX/ ! (anonymous, Viet Nam, 1968)
Message no. 32
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:23:28 -0400
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> And before I forget...does anyone know anything about the so-called
"Doomsday"
> device (I think it's supposed to be a cobalt-salted 50,000 megaton nuclear
> weapon). Supposedly it would destroy the entire human race except for people
> who were underground and did not come out for at least five years.
>

That device was from a fictitious work called Emergence, a sort of post
apocalyptic, neo-evolution, cheese ridden madness written by I forget
who. The book was OK until the author got to the part about the
"re-entry vehicle" and demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge of
nuclear weapons.

Marc
Message no. 33
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:27:44 -0400
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Okay, I have a question...
>
> In Yuma, Arizona, there is a weapon called HARP (High Altitude Research
> Project). It consists of two 16 inch, 50 caliber barrels in tandem, each
> 119.4 feet long and weighing upwards of 165 tons. On November 19, 1966, a
> 185-lb projectile was fired to an altitude of 111.8 miles (590,550 feet).
>
> What's the damage code?

Well, which was it, 16 inch, or .50 caliber?

Marc
Message no. 34
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 17:36:06 +0100
>
> On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:
>
> > And before I forget...does anyone know anything about the so-called
"Doomsday"
> > device (I think it's supposed to be a cobalt-salted 50,000 megaton nuclear
> > weapon). Supposedly it would destroy the entire human race except for
people
> > who were underground and did not come out for at least five years.

Cobalt bombs are a girls best friend!
and they even turn the milk choclaty!
The bombs a 'dirty' one...really mess up the world (if it
doesn't blow off the earths atmosphere
(anyone know what megatonnage it'd take? i remember about 5grams
of antimatter in ST:TNG games)

Want doomsday?
Read FOOTFALL...massive meteors as spaceweapons!

CHOPPER
chaos engineer
Message no. 35
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:33:14 -0400
On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Hey, what about nuclear warheads?
>

Actually, in my game there are small, man-portable tactical nuclear
weapons, with a damage code of heinous. At ground zero, you don't even
roll, and at about 5m away the power is 50D. The problem is that they
are DIFFICULT to acquire and difficult to use with out killing yourself
in the process. Oh, and before you nit pickers gripe at me for allowing
the use of tactical nuclear weapons, realize that my game has a
SIGNIFICANTLY higher technological base. For that matter, It's not even
on the same fraggin' planet.

Marc
Message no. 36
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 17:42:08 +0100
>
> On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:
>
> > Hey, what about nuclear warheads?
> >
>
> Actually, in my game there are small, man-portable tactical nuclear
> weapons, with a damage code of heinous. At ground zero, you don't even
> roll, and at about 5m away the power is 50D. The problem is that they
> are DIFFICULT to acquire and difficult to use with out killing yourself
> in the process. Oh, and before you nit pickers gripe at me for allowing
> the use of tactical nuclear weapons, realize that my game has a
> SIGNIFICANTLY higher technological base. For that matter, It's not even
> on the same fraggin' planet.
>
> Marc
<CHOP> i've allowed a RED MERCURY /TRITIUM NEUTRON BOMB in one
game, but it never got detonated (no fuse/arming codes)
CHOPPER
Hg2 Sb2 O7 is the way forward
Message no. 37
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 1994 13:02:06 -0500
Uhhhhhhhhhh..read that again, Marc...

>> It consists of two 16 inch, 50 caliber barrels in tandem
> Well, which was it, 16 inch,of .50 caliber

Nowhere did I say .50 caliber...
^ important decimal point
Message no. 38
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:49:15 -0400
On Tue, 5 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Uhhhhhhhhhh..read that again, Marc...
>
> >> It consists of two 16 inch, 50 caliber barrels in tandem
> > Well, which was it, 16 inch,of .50 caliber
>
> Nowhere did I say .50 caliber...
> ^ important decimal point
>
Sorry about missing the decimal, but in this case it still doesn't matter.
So which is it? 16 inch, or 50 caliber. Caliber is a measure of barrel
diameter in inches. So what you are telling me is that it was a sixteen
inch and a fifty inch diameter simultaneously? Make up your mind. :)

Marc
Message no. 39
From: Jason Larke <jlarke@**.ITD.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 11:32:24 -0400
>>>>> On Wed, 06 Jul 1994 10:49:15 EDT, Marc A Renouf
>>>>> <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU> said:

MAR> Sorry about missing the decimal, but in this case it
MAR> still doesn't matter. So which is it? 16 inch, or 50
MAR> caliber. Caliber is a measure of barrel diameter in
MAR> inches. So what you are telling me is that it was a
MAR> sixteen inch and a fifty inch diameter simultaneously?
MAR> Make up your mind. :)

When discussing really big guns (at least w/naval-class
guns) caliber is the barrel length, measured as a multiple
of the bore. So these guns are 16-inch bore x 50 calibre =
800 inch barrel length. (For comparison, a typical
battleship gun is 16 inch 38 caliber. These are some
long-barreled guns.)
Message no. 40
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 08:50:45 -0700
Hoooo Boy, Did I mess up the formula!!!

On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> >>>>> "Ivy" == Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG> writes:
>
> Ivy> ((Bullet weight <in grains>) x (bullet speed <in feet per second) /
3)
> Ivy> +3 = Force. And give it a Damage Code of DEADLY

Where it says divide by 3 (...second) / 3)) it SHOULD say divide by 45,000!!
Dividing by 3 is *WAY* off.

((Bullet weight in grains) x Bullet speed in feet per second) / 45,000) +
3 will equal the Force. Round normally, and the final +3 corrects for SRII.

> Just curious, but where did you get this formula, and have you used to to
> compare conventional weapons to Shadowrun writeups?

It's a modification of the Aberdeen Proving Ground's effectiveness
formula. I use it because it gives better results than any of the
others. Tain't perfect, but (when I can write it correctly) it comes
close enough. There are modifiers for bullet type too.


Ivy
Message no. 41
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 09:59:59 -0700
Hmmm, Marc, There is an old European tradition of measuring gun barrels
by how many times the diameter of the projectile may be divided into the
length of the barrel. What Gian-Paolo was trying to say was that the
piece has a 16 inch bore and that it's length is (50 x 16) x 2 long. In
other words the barrel is 16 inch bore and 1600 inches (133.3 feet) long.

On Wed, 6 Jul 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:
>
> Sorry about missing the decimal, but in this case it still doesn't matter.
> So which is it? 16 inch, or 50 caliber. Caliber is a measure of barrel
> diameter in inches. So what you are telling me is that it was a sixteen
> inch and a fifty inch diameter simultaneously? Make up your mind. :)

Ivy
Message no. 42
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 12:26:51 +0100
On Wed, 6 Jul 1994, Jason Larke wrote:

> When discussing really big guns (at least w/naval-class
> guns) caliber is the barrel length, measured as a multiple
> of the bore. So these guns are 16-inch bore x 50 calibre =
> 800 inch barrel length. (For comparison, a typical
> battleship gun is 16 inch 38 caliber. These are some
> long-barreled guns.)

Uh, I've never heard that before. Caliber has always measured the width
of the bore.

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or Blue Earth County
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 43
From: Alexander Borghgraef <Alexander.Borghgraef@***.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 19:21:25 --100
----- Begin Included Message -----
Message no. 44
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:49:15 -0400
On Tue, 5 Jul 1994, Gian-Paolo Musumeci wrote:

> Uhhhhhhhhhh..read that again, Marc...
>
> >> It consists of two 16 inch, 50 caliber barrels in tandem
> > Well, which was it, 16 inch,of .50 caliber
>
> Nowhere did I say .50 caliber...
> ^ important decimal point
>
Sorry about missing the decimal, but in this case it still doesn't matter.
So which is it? 16 inch, or 50 caliber. Caliber is a measure of barrel
diameter in inches. So what you are telling me is that it was a sixteen
inch and a fifty inch diameter simultaneously? Make up your mind. :)

Marc


----- End Included Message -----

I thought caliber was the length of the barrel divided by the diameter.
Message no. 45
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns Guns Guns
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 12:40:30 +0100
cal.i.ber or cal.i.bre \'kal-*-b*r\ n [MF calibre, fr. OIt calibro, fr. Ar
qa-lib shoemaker's la]st 1a: the diameter of a bullet or other projectile
1b: the diameter of a bore (as of a cannon or other firearm) 2: the
diameter of a round body; esp : the internal diameter of a hollow cylinder
3a: degree of mental capacity or moral quality 3b: degree of excellence or
importance : QUALITY

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or Blue Earth County
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 46
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns Guns Guns
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 13:55:05 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert A Hayden
<hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU> writes:

Robert> cal.i.ber or cal.i.bre \'kal-*-b*r\ n

Very nice, but Webster isn't always accurate, nor is it complete.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Anything not nailed down is mine.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | Anything I can pry up is not nailed down.
Message no. 47
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 13:57:22 -0400
Ooops. Forgot. I'm a Naval Engineer, I should remember this crap. I've
even dealt with surface combatant vessels before, so I should have
recalled this little factoid. Sorry for the confusion.

Marc

On Wed, 6 Jul 1994,
Ivy Ryan wrote:

> Hmmm, Marc, There is an old European tradition of measuring gun barrels
> by how many times the diameter of the projectile may be divided into the
> length of the barrel. What Gian-Paolo was trying to say was that the
> piece has a 16 inch bore and that it's length is (50 x 16) x 2 long. In
> other words the barrel is 16 inch bore and 1600 inches (133.3 feet) long.
>
> On Wed, 6 Jul 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:
> >
> > Sorry about missing the decimal, but in this case it still doesn't matter.
> > So which is it? 16 inch, or 50 caliber. Caliber is a measure of barrel
> > diameter in inches. So what you are telling me is that it was a sixteen
> > inch and a fifty inch diameter simultaneously? Make up your mind. :)
>
> Ivy
>
Message no. 48
From: Jai Tao <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Guns Guns Guns
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 23:20:47 -0400
On Wed, 6 Jul 1994, Robert A. Hayden wrote:

> cal.i.ber or cal.i.bre \'kal-*-b*r\ n [MF calibre, fr. OIt calibro, fr. Ar
> qa-lib shoemaker's la]st 1a: the diameter of a bullet or other projectile
> 1b: the diameter of a bore (as of a cannon or other firearm) 2: the
> diameter of a round body; esp : the internal diameter of a hollow cylinder
> 3a: degree of mental capacity or moral quality 3b: degree of excellence or
> importance : QUALITY
>
And if _that's_ not good enough for everybody, then someone who
cares should go & ask in one of the firearm-related USENET newsgroups.
Message no. 49
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:21:13 -0700
On Tue, 5 Jul 1994, Marc A Renouf wrote:
> Well, which was it, 16 inch, or .50 caliber?

'Caliber' as it applies to artillery, usually refers to the
length of the barrel as a multiple of its bore diameter. Thus, a 16
inch/50 caliber naval rifle has a barrel that's 50 x 16 inches _long_.
Marc, you're a naval engineer, sheesh, you should know that! ;^)
Most howitzers are 20-40 calibers, while guns (in the sense of
flat-trajectory, high velocity weapons like naval rifles) are usually 50
or more.

> Marc >

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 50
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guns guns guns...
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:26:34 -0700
On Tue, 5 Jul 1994, J.W.Thomas wrote:

> (anyone know what megatonnage it'd take? i remember about 5grams
> of antimatter in ST:TNG games)

Actually, it takes from 10-20 *tons* of antimatter to smash a
medium-sized continent, more like 40 for Eurasia. A fusion bomb converts
~ 2% of its mass into energy, fission bombs maybe .7%. A large nuke
easily has 5 grams equivalent antimatter in its explosion.

> CHOPPER

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 51
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:16:42 -0400
On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, Gurth wrote: [on the topic of gun ownership...]

> Betcha that guy's an American :) BTW, that law all of them point to to
> defend their right to own firearms says (I believe) that people can arm
> themselves to form a state militia in order to defend their state, not arm
> themselves because they bloody well feel like it...

I once saw a quote that summed up the right to own a firearm
quite well. Paraphrasing it went something like this:

Q "Why do you feel you have the right to own a firearm?"
A "To protect myself, my family, and my home."
Q "From what?"
A "The government."

The fact that there are more guns in the USA than people keeps
the government from gettin' too uppity. :)

Marc
Message no. 52
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 02:32:32 +0930
Marc A Renouf wrote:
> I once saw a quote that summed up the right to own a firearm
> quite well. Paraphrasing it went something like this:
>
> Q "Why do you feel you have the right to own a firearm?"
> A "To protect myself, my family, and my home."
> Q "From what?"
> A "The government."
>
> The fact that there are more guns in the USA than people keeps
> the government from gettin' too uppity. :)

That's the idea, from the Founding Fathers themselves. They decided that if
it weren't for the fact that every man and his dog had owned a gun, then
they'd never have won. So they made it law (in the Constitution) that
people had the right to "bear" (that is own) firearms. Just in case the
People decided they needed to overthrow the government again.

The gun nuts who want automatic weapons try to play the intent of the law.
That is, that the Constition implies that private citizens should be able
to have access to any weaponary the military can have.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 53
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:25:52 +0200
>The gun nuts who want automatic weapons try to play the intent of the law.
>That is, that the Constition implies that private citizens should be able
>to have access to any weaponary the military can have.

I can see it now: people walking around with Hellfire missiles over their
shoulders because "the military has them, therefore so should we."


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Give it birth to the machine
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 54
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:21:03 +0200
> I once saw a quote that summed up the right to own a firearm
> quite well. Paraphrasing it went something like this:
>
> Q "Why do you feel you have the right to own a firearm?"
> A "To protect myself, my family, and my home."
> Q "From what?"
> A "The government."
>
> The fact that there are more guns in the USA than people keeps
> the government from gettin' too uppity. :)

This is not meant as an anti-american flame, but seriously do you
guys really belive that ? I mean that you have to protect yourselves
from your own government? It sounds kinda sad to me...

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 55
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 13:26:50 BST
Feanor Wrote
<some more stuff 'bout thje guvmint>

You guys in Germany might have trustworthy governments, but in the UK
you can't trust them an inch man. They might not go for the wholesale
repression in the form that the American consitution is supposed to
protect against, but they do have this habit of using their position to
ensure they're well set up for life afterwards.

IT's probably unavoidable, but thats a politics argument, and I wanna
talk about SR.

Phil (Renegade)
Message no. 56
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:15:22 -0400
>>>>> "Jani" == Jani Fikouras
<feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:

Jani> This is not meant as an anti-american flame, but seriously do you
Jani> guys really belive that ? I mean that you have to protect yourselves
Jani> from your own government? It sounds kinda sad to me...

Yes, yes we do; at least some of us.

We did it a bit over 200 years ago against the Brittish Empire, and, should
it be necessary in the future, we should have the ability to do so again.
The people must *always* have the ability to overthrow their own government
should they decide that the government is not working in their best
interest. That may require armed rebellion, and that's why the 2nd
Ammendment exists.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | which, if exposed due to rupture, should
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Message no. 57
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 03:22:04 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >>>>> "Jani" == Jani Fikouras
<feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:
>
> Jani> This is not meant as an anti-american flame, but seriously do you
> Jani> guys really belive that ? I mean that you have to protect yourselves
> Jani> from your own government? It sounds kinda sad to me...
>
> Yes, yes we do; at least some of us.
>
> We did it a bit over 200 years ago against the Brittish Empire, and, should
> it be necessary in the future, we should have the ability to do so again.
> The people must *always* have the ability to overthrow their own government
> should they decide that the government is not working in their best
> interest. That may require armed rebellion, and that's why the 2nd
> Ammendment exists.

Yeah, but the situation's changed since. A bunch of guys with rifles (even
assault rifles and grenade launchers) aren't going to win a rebellion. The
intent of the 2nd Ammendment is no longer feasible, so the law should be
changed.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 58
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:04:08 -0400
On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> > The fact that there are more guns in the USA than people keeps
> > the government from gettin' too uppity. :)

> This is not meant as an anti-american flame, but seriously do you
> guys really belive that ? I mean that you have to protect yourselves
> from your own government? It sounds kinda sad to me...

You forget that we already have. This country was *founded* on
protecting ourselves from our parent government (namely Great Britain).
The founders of this country knew what they had to fight against, and so
in order to keep it from happening to the people again, they built all of
these ideas into the constitution to keep the government in check and
make sure that the power lay in the hands of the people. It's not that
we necessarily see the government as a threat (well... ;) ), but that it
is one of the principles that this country was founded on.

Marc (Eeeek! I almost sound...patriotic! I think I'm gonna be sick.)
Message no. 59
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:25:28 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
writes:

Robert> Yeah, but the situation's changed since.

Has it? Has it really? Could have fooled me.

Robert> A bunch of guys with rifles (even assault rifles and grenade
Robert> launchers) aren't going to win a rebellion.

That's almost exactly what the Brittish Crown said in the late 1700s. And
you might want to take a good, long look at what's going down over in
eastern Europe these days.

Robert> The intent of the 2nd Ammendment is no longer feasible, so the law
Robert> should be changed.

Over my dead body.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.
Message no. 60
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:53:04 +0930
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> Robert> A bunch of guys with rifles (even assault rifles and grenade
> Robert> launchers) aren't going to win a rebellion.
>
> That's almost exactly what the Brittish Crown said in the late 1700s. And
> you might want to take a good, long look at what's going down over in
> eastern Europe these days.
>
No... in the 1700's the British Government (the Crown didn't have too much
to do with it) said a bunch of scruffy peasants aren't going to win a
rebellion. The arms level was about right.

Futhermore, they only sent a small punitive expedition... if they'd really
wanted to stop you, they would have.

In Eastern Europe, it's not a bunch of guys with rifles. It's a bunch of
guys with full on military gear, including armour, artillery, and air
support.

> Robert> The intent of the 2nd Ammendment is no longer feasible, so the law
> Robert> should be changed.
>
> Over my dead body.

The law should be changed in one of two ways: you should either NOT be
allowed guns (unless you find a new principle... I can think of several
possibilities), or you should be allowed full access to EVERYTHING, so you
can properly fulfill the intent. Anyone here believe the latter is a good
way to go?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 61
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:03:31 -0500
Amazinghow those pesky afgahnastan peasants with poor weapons, toyota
trucks, and a handful of American Stingers fought that entire Soviet army...

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> Cthulhu Matata
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> hayden@*******.mankato.msus.edu
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> http://att2.cs.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden
Message no. 62
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:08:41 -0500
>Futhermore, they only sent a small punitive expedition... if they'd really
>wanted to stop you, they would have.

And the French would've dined in London within the year...

>In Eastern Europe, it's not a bunch of guys with rifles. It's a bunch of
>guys with full on military gear, including armour, artillery, and air
>support.

And all the training a twelve-year old can handle until they need someone to
serve the cause which is as soon as training begins...

>The law should be changed in one of two ways: you should either NOT be
>allowed guns (unless you find a new principle... I can think of several
>possibilities), or you should be allowed full access to EVERYTHING, so you
>can properly fulfill the intent. Anyone here believe the latter is a good
>way to go?

The law shouldn't be changed at all. For a nation born of English
criminals, I can see a need for strict gun legislation...

(kinda sucks to be in this argument...is there a sysop out there who'll kill
this thread?)


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 63
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:19:13 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
writes:

Robert> No... in the 1700's the British Government (the Crown didn't have
Robert> too much to do with it) said a bunch of scruffy peasants aren't
Robert> going to win a rebellion. The arms level was about right.

Picky, picky. Just remember that at the time, the British Army was
considered to be one of the most feared fighting forces in the world, and
the British Navy one of the most feared naval forces. And that bunch of
scruffy peasants not only defeated them, but forced them to retreat.

Robert> Futhermore, they only sent a small punitive expedition... if they'd
Robert> really wanted to stop you, they would have.

In a word, ``not.''

Robert> In Eastern Europe, it's not a bunch of guys with rifles. It's a
Robert> bunch of guys with full on military gear, including armour,
Robert> artillery, and air support.

As Hayden put it so suscinctly, isn't it amazing that the Afghanistani
peasants, armed with cast-offs, forced the Soviet military machine to
retreat from their country.

Robert> The intent of the 2nd Ammendment is no longer feasible, so the law
Robert> should be changed.

>> Over my dead body.

Robert> The law should be changed in one of two ways: you should either NOT
Robert> be allowed guns (unless you find a new principle... I can think of
Robert> several possibilities),

Over my dead body.

Robert> or you should be allowed full access to EVERYTHING, so you can
Robert> properly fulfill the intent. Anyone here believe the latter is a
Robert> good way to go?

I don't. You've obviously missed the intent.

There really is no need for heavy and automatic weapons in the hands of the
general populace, and my reasons are tactical and strategic, not political.
And should the President or Congress attempt to abuse the US Armed forces,
a goodly percentage will not obey those unlawful orders, thus placing the
US military arsenal, or a goodly percentage thereof, in the hands of the
population most properly trained to use them should it become necessary.

And finally, not being a US citizen yourself, where do you get off saying
that our laws need to be changed?

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | head.
Message no. 64
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:58:09 +0930
Bob Ooton wrote:
>
> The law shouldn't be changed at all. For a nation born of English
> criminals, I can see a need for strict gun legislation...
>
Look to your own roots, Bob... America served as a penal colony is well.

Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter wether it's strict or loose, it just
has to be uniform. You don't have universal legislation on anything, just
about.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 65
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 23:12:59 -0500
>Look to your own roots, Bob... America served as a penal colony is well.

Some criminals were here early, but far fewer than you'd like to think. We
were mainly founded by third and later sons (and daughters) of English
landed gentry who realized that they would never gain anything by remaining
in England. They had a choice between military, church, and America. A
good percentage chose America. That combined with a search for religious
freedom is what created America, thank you very much. Not as an oversized
prison barge, but as a land of opportunity. I'm sure a few criminals made
their way here, but they were not shipped in droves here from the start Our
land was/and is simply too valuable to waste on prisoners... (tobacco, which
pretty much only the Americas can grow, with any success was extremely
valuable in the 1700's, much more so than it is today) Not to mention
cotton and other crops that we can do and so few others can. So don't try
to pull history on me... It'd be like me trying to explain Japanese history
to a teacher in Tokyo. Sure, I think I know something about them, but I
know they know more.


-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 66
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:30:43 +0200
> (kinda sucks to be in this argument...is there a sysop out there who'll kill
> this thread?)

How about stoping it yerself :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

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Message no. 67
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:26:58 +0200
> Amazinghow those pesky afgahnastan peasants with poor weapons, toyota
> trucks, and a handful of American Stingers fought that entire Soviet army...

Believing that the afgahnians were on their own is as much an illusion as
bellieving that the vietnamese had no outside help.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 68
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: guns, guns, guns...
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:49:17 +0200
> Robert> A bunch of guys with rifles (even assault rifles and grenade
> Robert> launchers) aren't going to win a rebellion.
>
> That's almost exactly what the Brittish Crown said in the late 1700s. And
> you might want to take a good, long look at what's going down over in
> eastern Europe these days.

Well as I see it, all these rebells dont really have a chance. It is
actually a matter of thoroughness - how do you think did the old Soviet
Union mange to keep them happy all those years. The problem is that for
many different reasons the local governments cant afford to be thorough
enough to end the conflicts once and for all.

> Robert> The intent of the 2nd Ammendment is no longer feasible, so the law
> Robert> should be changed.
>
> Over my dead body.

Hmmm you americans are really weird people :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?

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