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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Gun Statistics Revision
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:26:07 -0500
Okay here's the revised stats for guns based on the premise that Heavy
Pistols use the same ammo as SMGs (As proposed by Gurth & Caric). My
copy of FoF is on loan to a player so I'll have to wait until Monday or
Tuesday, psooibly later, before I can update those stats.

Only the Statistical Categories that are being updated are listed.

Most of it just Hold-outs get +2 Conceal, Light &Machine Pistols get +1
Conceal, Heavy Pistols get -3 Power. There are a few other changes (I
couldn't see some of the pistols having a concealability of 4, for one
...)

Pistol Type* Conceal Damage
Fichetti Tiffani Needler HO 10 5L
Morrissey Elan HO 10 5L
Raecor Sting HO 11 4M(f)
Streetline Special HO 10 4L
Tiffani Self-Defender HO 10 4L
Walther Palm Pistol HO 11 4L

Ares Light Fire 70 Light 6 6L
Beretta 200ST Light 5 6L
With stock attached 4
Beretta Model 101T Light 6 6L
Ceska v/120 Light 8 6L
Colt America L36 Light 7 6L
Fichetti Executive Action Light 7 6L
Fichetti Security 500 Light 8 6L
Fichetti Security 500a Light 7 6L
Morrissey Elite Light 7 6M
Seco LD-120 Light 6 6L

Ares Crusader MP Light 7 6L
Ceska Black Scorpion Light 6 6L

Ares Predator Heavy 5 6M
Ares Predator II Heavy 5 6M
Ares Viper Slivergun Heavy 6 6S(f)
Browning Max-Power Heavy 6 6M
Browning Ultra-Power Heavy 6 6M
Colt Manhunter Heavy 5 6M
Eichiro Hatamoto II Heavy 6 7S
(Uses Shotgun rules but Heavy Pistol Ranges)
Morrissey Alta Heavy 6 6M
Remington Roomsweeper Heavy 6 6S(f)
Ruger Super Warhawk Heavy 5 7M

Ares Squirt Light 8 Special
Ares Squirt II Light 8 Special
Barton Arms Gun Cane HO 2/10 6L
Barton Arms Brace HO 8 6L
Defiance Super Shock
Capacitator Dart Variant Light 4 9S
Narcojet Pistol Light 8 As Toxin
Yamaha Pulsar Light 5 10S

*Type refers to established or proposed type of gun the weapons use for
range only.

Did Forget anything (Aside from the FoF)?
What do you think?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

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Message no. 2
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun Statistics Revision
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:42:33 -0700
> From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>

> Okay here's the revised stats for guns based on the premise that Heavy
> Pistols use the same ammo as SMGs (As proposed by Gurth & Caric). My
> copy of FoF is on loan to a player so I'll have to wait until Monday or
> Tuesday, psooibly later, before I can update those stats.

Killer idea.

> Only the Statistical Categories that are being updated are listed.
>
> Most of it just Hold-outs get +2 Conceal, Light &Machine Pistols get +1
> Conceal, Heavy Pistols get -3 Power. There are a few other changes (I
> couldn't see some of the pistols having a concealability of 4, for one
> ...)

This gives the Tiffany self defenders in a concealable holster under a
longcoat a concealability of 18, which in my opinion is a good thing. They
are *supposed* to be damn difficult to detect visually.

> Did Forget anything (Aside from the FoF)?
> What do you think?

<snip actual list of weapons>

It looks good except for some possible exceptions that I would like to
throw out there. I think that maybe the machine pistol concealabilities
should stay where they were, I can definitely seeing them being the size of
a normal heavy pistol which typically are given a 5 or 6 conc. I know it's
only a +1, but since they are now giving you the extra power with their
burst capabilities and high round capacities....just a thought.

Caric
Message no. 3
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun Statistics Revision
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:06:02 -0500
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 21:42:33 -0700 Caric <caric@********.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
>I think that maybe the machine pistol concealabilities
>should stay where they were, I can definitely seeing them being the size
of
>a normal heavy pistol which typically are given a 5 or 6 conc. I know
it's
>only a +1, but since they are now giving you the extra power with their
>burst capabilities and high round capacities....just a thought.

My reasoning was that they are burstfire capable light pistols with an
extended clip and that the extended clip's effect on concealability had
been taken into account. Therefore I went ahead and gave them the +1 ...
If you feel that they are more like heavy pistols leave their
concealability ratings alone. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 4
From: andrew <andrew@********.NET.UK>
Subject: Re: Gun Statistics Revision
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:20:12 +0100
"D. Ghost" wrote:

> Okay here's the revised stats for guns based on the premise that Heavy
> Pistols use the same ammo as SMGs (As proposed by Gurth & Caric).Only the
> Statistical Categories that are being updated are listed.
>
> Most of it just Hold-outs get +2 Conceal, Light &Machine Pistols get +1
> Conceal, Heavy Pistols get -3 Power. There are a few other changes (I
> couldn't see some of the pistols having a concealability of 4, for one
> ...)

A heavy pistol shot in a skilled persons hands can kill someone, even if
armoured. If you reduce the power of heavy pistols to 6 or 7 then everyone
just goes oh its a heavy pistol and could probably just shrug it off.
In my group even the most lightly armoured member of a party (someone
with armoured clothing B:3 I:0) could virtually shrug off the worst of a 6M
or 7M. This in my opinion would make them worthless.
Message no. 5
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Gun Statistics Revision
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:28:54 +1000
> A heavy pistol shot in a skilled persons hands can kill someone, even if
>armoured. If you reduce the power of heavy pistols to 6 or 7 then everyone
>just goes oh its a heavy pistol and could probably just shrug it off.
> In my group even the most lightly armoured member of a party (someone
>with armoured clothing B:3 I:0) could virtually shrug off the worst of a 6M
>or 7M. This in my opinion would make them worthless.

Even a Hold-Out Pistol is a threat in the hands of even a half-competent
shooter. Sure your characters may all have minimum Ballistic Armour
Ratings of 3, but so what? Does their armour cover their entire body? Not
likely. Is it hardened? Not likely. Can they spend a Simple Action
aiming and then do a Called Shot? You betcha.
A head-shot from any grade of weapon (even the humble 4L of a Hold-Out)
will bypass armour (unless they're wearing a helmet, of course) and most
likely screw the character up (sure 4M might not seem like much, but if
they get a couple of successes it becomes 4S, a couple more 4D.... you get
the picture). I'm not saying that you're guaranteed a take down (or
anything even close to it) just that a Power Level of 6 or 7 is still very,
very deadly if you use your weaponry _intelligently_.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 6
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gun Statistics Revision
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:08:57 -0400
Andrew wrote:
> A heavy pistol shot in a skilled persons hands can kill someone, even if
> armoured. If you reduce the power of heavy pistols to 6 or 7 then everyone
> just goes oh its a heavy pistol and could probably just shrug it off.
> In my group even the most lightly armoured member of a party (someone
> with armoured clothing B:3 I:0) could virtually shrug off the worst of a 6M
> or 7M. This in my opinion would make them worthless.

Well, you may need to revise you original statement. How about:
"A heavy pistol in a skilled person's hands can kill an average person,
even if armored"? I think this is true, but I wouldn't expect it to
do so in one shot. It COULD, but I'd expect it to take 2 or 3, unless
they were being shot in the head.
So, your skilled person gets, let's say, 4 successes on his
shot (skill of around 5, adds in some combat pool, not too far away...).
The target is wearing 3/0 armored clothing, and rolls to resist a 3D (counting
staging) with Body 3 + combat pool. Let's give our average person an available
combat pool of 3, to make the math easier - technically, they'd have a 4,
but we used a 6M instead od a 7M for the pistol, so it balances out. They
roll 6 dice, TN 3, and get 4 successes. They take an M wound. Two more,
and chances are they'll be toast...especially if they're trying to dodge,
because their TNs will get worse and worse as they collect wound penalties.

--Sean
Message no. 7
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun Statistics Revision
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:37:34 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:08 AM 9/21/98 -0400, Sean wrote:
> Well, you may need to revise you original statement. How
about:
>"A heavy pistol in a skilled person's hands can kill an average
person,
>even if armored"? I think this is true, but I wouldn't expect it to
>do so in one shot. It COULD, but I'd expect it to take 2 or 3, unless
>they were being shot in the head.

Maybe this is just me, but I would want even lone gunshot wounds to at
least put the fear of death into anyone. Perhaps Shadowrun's lack of
good "bleeding" rules is more at fault here than a problem with pistol
damage codes.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Gun Statistics Revision
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 22:12:41 -0500
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 18:26:07 -0500 "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM> writes:
>Okay here's the revised stats for guns based on the premise that Heavy
>Pistols use the same ammo as SMGs (As proposed by Gurth & Caric). My
>copy of FoF is on loan to a player so I'll have to wait until Monday
>or Tuesday, psooibly later, before I can update those stats.

I just got my FoF back (YAY!) so here's the rest :)

>Only the Statistical Categories that are being updated are listed.
>
>Most of it just Hold-outs get +2 Conceal, Light &Machine Pistols get
>+1 Conceal, Heavy Pistols get -3 Power. There are a few other changes
>(I couldn't see some of the pistols having a concealability of 4, for
>one ...)
>
>Pistol Type* Conceal Damage
Walther PB-120 Light 9(7) 6L
Hammerli Model 610s Heavy 5 6L
Savalette Guardian Heavy 5 6M

>*Type refers to established or proposed type of gun the weapons use
>for range only.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."
--T-Bone(?)

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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