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From:	Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:51:29 +0000

Message no. 1 First I would like to thank everybody that gave helpful suggestions
in the "Lethality discussion". Thanks!

OK, next question .. This came up durring the last game session...

A person wielding a gun gets attacked in hand to hand combat he takes
a punch and then it is his turn .. can he then just take a step back
and blow the enemy away or does the the enemy follow him if he moves
even thou it is not his initiativ ...

This basically comes down to (at least it is how I figure it) how you
see the initiativ steps ... is it on my turn I do my thing then I
stand there like a statue until it is me again ... or do you move
with the flow all the time ...

Ofcause I would say that you move with the flow but that sort of
makes some other things difficult ... like moving .. do you move the
the new place on your number or do you do it between this number and
the next one ? and if someone wants to take a shot at you .. where do
you get shot ? at the start, in the middle, or in the end ?

Work the greymatter again ...

/Stefan

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From:	Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:12:15 -0400

Message no. 2 > From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
> Date: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 7:51 PM

> First I would like to thank everybody that gave helpful suggestions
> in the "Lethality discussion". Thanks!

I didn't help there, so I won't take any of the credit. :)

> OK, next question .. This came up durring the last game session...

> A person wielding a gun gets attacked in hand to hand combat he takes
> a punch and then it is his turn .. can he then just take a step back
> and blow the enemy away or does the the enemy follow him if he moves
> even thou it is not his initiativ ...

<Snip>

> Work the greymatter again ...

*churning sound*

Okay, here's my take on hand-to-hand combat. In HTH, all involved parties
are constantly moving in order to get a better attack position and, at the
same time, to avoid making themselves vulnerable to attack. In fact, in
just about all combat, it is assumed you are moving. If not, there is a -1
"target is stationary" TN modifier. Many people neglect to apply this TN
modifier even when it is applicable. However, I would argue that it's
almost never applicable, 'cause even when taking cover, you have to move
around to get shots off, etc.

Now, back to your question. You are still in HTH combat when your turn
comes in the above example. If you shoot the enemy with your gun while
still in HTH, you should apply a +2 TN modifier, as per the standard rules
for using a gun in melee combat. Also, if you were to make an Armed Combat
attack using the butt of the gun as your weapon, I would also apply this TN
modifier because the gun is an "improvised weapon". I would also rule that
if you attempted to block or counterattack while holding the gun, you would
be subject to the +2 TN modifier as well.

If you wished to step out of melee range, I would allow it on your action,
but your opponent would get a free melee attack that you could not counter,
but could attempt to dodge if desired.

Well, that's my take on it. I'm sure you'll get plenty of others. :)

> /Stefan

Justin :)

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:07:35 +0000

Message no. 3 > First I would like to thank everybody that gave helpful suggestions
> in the "Lethality discussion". Thanks!
>
> OK, next question .. This came up durring the last game session...
>
> A person wielding a gun gets attacked in hand to hand combat he takes
> a punch and then it is his turn .. can he then just take a step back
> and blow the enemy away or does the the enemy follow him if he moves
> even thou it is not his initiativ ...
>
> This basically comes down to (at least it is how I figure it) how you
> see the initiativ steps ... is it on my turn I do my thing then I
> stand there like a statue until it is me again ... or do you move
> with the flow all the time ...
>
> Ofcause I would say that you move with the flow but that sort of
> makes some other things difficult ... like moving .. do you move the
> the new place on your number or do you do it between this number and
> the next one ? and if someone wants to take a shot at you .. where do
> you get shot ? at the start, in the middle, or in the end ?

Heh. A lot of questions and no good answers.

You *could* do it like this...

If someone moves, they get one simple action before they move, and
one after. (Location wise.). That means that the guy could step back
and shoot, but then he would get only one shot off. (Or shoot in
melee, move, shoot out of melee). If they use a complex action they
are considered in between the two points. And considering they have
to be backpedaling it would be reasonable to give an additional TN
modifier to just moving. Doubling movement penalties, perhaps?.
(Unless they turn, move, turn back, in which case the guy would get a
melee attack on his back.). Someone advocated giving an automatic
melee attack if someone tried that stunt.. possibly. Give a +2 TN for
multiple attacks on the physad, but can only be fended off or dodged,
perhaps, or perhaps compare speeds; if the physad is faster, he
follows, making the shot very hard. (+2 TN in melee +2*movement..).

Splitting simple actions between start of movement and end of
movement would help (a bit) the 'move into his face and blow'im
away' syndrome too; he only gets a simple action to do it in.

As a side note: How do you deal with runners taking an action then
using a free action to drop prone behind cover? No problem?
Did I miss a disadvantage on this one? What TN penalty for cover
should he get? (If none, what stops a runner from taking no cover,
firing, then dropping out of sight? That makes the cover penalties
pointless!).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:31:46 -0400

Message no. 4 Stefan once dared to write,

>A person wielding a gun gets attacked in hand to hand combat he takes
>a punch and then it is his turn .. can he then just take a step back
>and blow the enemy away or does the the enemy follow him if he moves
>even thou it is not his initiativ ...

I make the fight continue in melee with the gun weilding character
having to default to unarmed combat with his firearm skill. If he is
successful then the damage he does is with his gun. It worked fine for me.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"But we know evil is an exact science,
being carefully, correctly wrong!"
-Shriekback, Nemesis

I am MC23

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:39:37 GMT

Message no. 5 Justin Pinnow writes

> > A person wielding a gun gets attacked in hand to hand combat he takes
> > a punch and then it is his turn .. can he then just take a step back
> > and blow the enemy away or does the the enemy follow him if he moves
> > even thou it is not his initiativ ...
>
> Okay, here's my take on hand-to-hand combat. In HTH, all involved parties
> are constantly moving in order to get a better attack position and, at the
> same time, to avoid making themselves vulnerable to attack.
correct, initiatives are a game mechanic

> In fact, in
> just about all combat, it is assumed you are moving. If not, there is a -1
> "target is stationary" TN modifier. Many people neglect to apply this TN
> modifier even when it is applicable. However, I would argue that it's
> almost never applicable, 'cause even when taking cover, you have to move
> around to get shots off, etc.
>
i have used it but very rarely, mostly because if this is applicable
generally then you really don't need dice to work out what happens
next :)

> Now, back to your question. You are still in HTH combat when your turn
> comes in the above example. If you shoot the enemy with your gun while
> still in HTH, you should apply a +2 TN modifier, as per the standard rules
> for using a gun in melee combat.
certainly.

> Also, if you were to make an Armed Combat
> attack using the butt of the gun as your weapon, I would also apply this TN
> modifier because the gun is an "improvised weapon". I would also rule that
> if you attempted to block or counterattack while holding the gun, you would
> be subject to the +2 TN modifier as well.
>
> If you wished to step out of melee range, I would allow it on your action,
> but your opponent would get a free melee attack that you could not counter,
> but could attempt to dodge if desired.
>
if you tried to 'walk' your opponent could close automatically, run
and yes if you are faster you open a gap, but he gets a free attack
(no movement penalties) as you turn your back, but as you say dodge
is fine. Then yes you could fire without the +2 but you get +4 firer
running (though on your opponents next action he will get +2 target
running and +4 attacker running if he wants to hit you again to his
melee attack)

> Well, that's my take on it. I'm sure you'll get plenty of others. :)
>
Mark

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:45:46 GMT

Message no. 6 Fade writes
>
> If someone moves, they get one simple action before they move, and
> one after. (Location wise.). That means that the guy could step back
> and shoot, but then he would get only one shot off. (Or shoot in
> melee, move, shoot out of melee).
if the opponent wants to stay in melee he could follow, it may not be
his/her action but 'actions' are a game mechanic.

> If they use a complex action they
> are considered in between the two points. And considering they have
> to be backpedaling it would be reasonable to give an additional TN
> modifier to just moving. Doubling movement penalties, perhaps?.
> (Unless they turn, move, turn back, in which case the guy would get a
> melee attack on his back.). Someone advocated giving an automatic
> melee attack if someone tried that stunt.. possibly. Give a +2 TN for
> multiple attacks on the physad, but can only be fended off or dodged,
> perhaps, or perhaps compare speeds; if the physad is faster, he
> follows, making the shot very hard. (+2 TN in melee +2*movement..).
>
i made some more suggestions in another reply but reasonable.

> Splitting simple actions between start of movement and end of
> movement would help (a bit) the 'move into his face and blow'im
> away' syndrome too; he only gets a simple action to do it in.
>
remember firer moving penalties.

> As a side note: How do you deal with runners taking an action then
> using a free action to drop prone behind cover? No problem?
> Did I miss a disadvantage on this one? What TN penalty for cover
> should he get? (If none, what stops a runner from taking no cover,
> firing, then dropping out of sight? That makes the cover penalties
> pointless!).
>
I allow, simple action fire, simple cover, but you have to come back
out inot someone who might now have a held action. Burst burst drop
is abusive so i say no, drop at your next action because the firing
takes time during which you are exposed (in game it might all happen
on one initiative, in real life it wouldn't).
Yes the shooter would pick up the 'firing out of cover' penalty for
this one, i only allow those to be ignored for prepared positions it
if its fairly obvious the firer is not impeded but has some cover
(being behind a parapet where you have plenty of room isn't a big
problem, but sure covers parts of you)

Mark

From:	Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 19:03:09 +1000

Message no. 7 >Stefan once dared to write,
>
>>A person wielding a gun gets attacked in hand to hand combat he takes
>>a punch and then it is his turn .. can he then just take a step back
>>and blow the enemy away or does the the enemy follow him if he moves
>>even thou it is not his initiativ ...
>
> I make the fight continue in melee with the gun weilding character
>having to default to unarmed combat with his firearm skill. If he is
>successful then the damage he does is with his gun. It worked fine for me.
>
Hmmm... I usually find that guns are the first thing a NPC attacker will go
for, a kick, and the gun goes flying, thus allowing the combatants to
continue a purely armed/unarmed combat.

Geoff

----------------
'Press any key to continue,
and any other key to quit.'
---------------

From:	Shaun Hall <Hard.master@********.ATT.NET>
Subject:	Re: Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:03:13 -0700

Message no. 8 >
> > Now, back to your question. You are still in HTH combat when your turn
> > comes in the above example. If you shoot the enemy with your gun while
> > still in HTH, you should apply a +2 TN modifier, as per the standard
rules
> > for using a gun in melee combat.
> certainly.
>
> > Also, if you were to make an Armed Combat
> > attack using the butt of the gun as your weapon, I would also apply
this TN
> > modifier because the gun is an "improvised weapon". I would also rule
that
> > if you attempted to block or counterattack while holding the gun, you
would
> > be subject to the +2 TN modifier as well.

How about using an assault rifle with a bayonet. This is a weapon
designed to be used in mele as well as ranged attacks. problem solved.

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Hand - 2 - Hand combat.
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:32:53 -0500

Message no. 9 You wrote:
> > As a side note: How do you deal with runners taking an action then
> > using a free action to drop prone behind cover? No problem?
> > Did I miss a disadvantage on this one? What TN penalty for cover
> > should he get? (If none, what stops a runner from taking no cover,
> > firing, then dropping out of sight? That makes the cover penalties
> > pointless!).
> >
> I allow, simple action fire, simple cover, but you have to come back
> out inot someone who might now have a held action. Burst burst drop
> is abusive so i say no, drop at your next action because the firing
> takes time during which you are exposed (in game it might all happen
> on one initiative, in real life it wouldn't).
Well, the way I see it, YMMV, if your opponent didn't hold an action to shoot
you when you popped up, you *should* be able to pop out of cover, fire two
bursts, and then drop prone. If your opponent had held an action, you'd pop
up, he'd take his shots at you, then you'd resolve your two bursts... Our
group loved the rules for held actions when they came out, because it made
certain situations *so* much easier to work out...

> Yes the shooter would pick up the 'firing out of cover' penalty for
> this one, i only allow those to be ignored for prepared positions it
> if its fairly obvious the firer is not impeded but has some cover
> (being behind a parapet where you have plenty of room isn't a big
> problem, but sure covers parts of you)
I dislike the idea of your cover hindering you unless the specific situation
would call for it to do so. If I'm positioning myself, I should be able to
shoot over a car hood without any more difficulty (maybe even less if I use it
to brace the weapon) than if I was standing in the open.

losthalo

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