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Message no. 1
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: Hard point question
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:52:59 -0400
Here is an interesting vehicle question regarding
mounting Heavy weapons on Hard points.

I'm constructing a yellow jacket with stock stats and
placing a Victory rotary Assault cannon under the chin.
According to the rules from SRII the Hardpoint
provides 1 point of compensation and halves all the
recoil mods from the weapon (SRII p 251). Now since
the Cannon only fires in FA mode that's 15 shots to
compensate for. I am assuming that you can mount a
gyrostabalizer in the Hard point to compensate for
some of the recoil but even with the deluxe it leaves 6
points uncompensated. That would be fine if the only
rule that applied to heavy weapons in this case was
the one concerning the Hardpoint. 6/2=3 points of
recoil so +3 TN. HOWEVER there is also the table in
SR II that indicates all recoil from heavy weapons is
doubled (SRII p89). That puts you right back at the 6
points of recoil uncompensated and you're back to +6
TN.
While I may not have explained it properly I think
you see my point about the 2 conflicting rules over
halving and then doubling the same number. Sort of
similar to the Ram vs Barrier ambiguity.
Message no. 2
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 23:18:45 +0100
In message <s1e3e203.004@***.gov>, Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
writes
>Here is an interesting vehicle question regarding
>mounting Heavy weapons on Hard points.
>
>I'm constructing a yellow jacket with stock stats and
>placing a Victory rotary Assault cannon under the chin.
>According to the rules from SRII the Hardpoint
>provides 1 point of compensation and halves all the
>recoil mods from the weapon (SRII p 251). Now since
>the Cannon only fires in FA mode that's 15 shots to
>compensate for.

According to RBB the Victory fires a maximum of five rounds. Though it's
'rotary', it is described in RBB as being a "autofire version" able to
"fire a maximum of five rounds per action".

The Recoil Modifier is x2, halved by the hardpoint, but remember this
applies to *uncompensated* recoil. Gas venting to a maximum of 4 is Y800
per point.

So, 1pt for the hardpoint and (say) 3pts gas venting, firing a maximum
5-round burst, gives you 1 point of uncompensated recoil. Double that
for being an assault cannon, then halve it for the hardpoint, for +1.

Personally, I have the hardpoint halve recoil *before* compensation.
This makes vehicle weapons extremely deadly, but hey, that's the way it
works for real.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 3
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:46:14 +0100
Jeffrey Riordan said on 16:52/10 Jul 96...

> I'm constructing a yellow jacket with stock stats and
> placing a Victory rotary Assault cannon under the chin.
> According to the rules from SRII the Hardpoint
> provides 1 point of compensation and halves all the
> recoil mods from the weapon (SRII p 251). [snip] 6/2=3 points of
> recoil so +3 TN. HOWEVER there is also the table in
> SR II that indicates all recoil from heavy weapons is
> doubled (SRII p89). That puts you right back at the 6
> points of recoil uncompensated and you're back to +6
> TN.

Taking a look in the RBB, we see that a Victory cannon fires 12 rounds per
turn, not 15. It has a recoil modifier of +2 per round, and can accept up
to 4 points of recoil comp., at 800 nuyen per point.

Let's see, fix that on a hardpoint and your recoil is halved; there is no
-1 recoil (that's a firmpoint that does that, not a hardpoint). Your
basic recoil is +24 if you fire all 12 rounds (you can choose to fire
less, as it's not specifically mentioned it uses minigun rules). That's
halved, and then you subtract the 4 points of recoil compensation, making
a total modifier of +8.

I think you're better off firing short bursts instead of all 12 rounds in
a turn. For aimed fire, anyway; with those 12 rounds it's a good idea to
use it for suppression fire (see FOF) because it gets you 12 dice to roll
without worrying about recoil at all, and with the 18D, all you need is
one hit.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Advertising: Your right to ignore.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Version 3.1:
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Message no. 4
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:46:14 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 23:18/10 Jul 96...

> According to RBB the Victory fires a maximum of five rounds. Though it's
> 'rotary', it is described in RBB as being a "autofire version" able to
> "fire a maximum of five rounds per action".

That was in SR1. In SRII, it was adjusted to 12 rounds per action.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Advertising: Your right to ignore.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 5
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:15:37 GMT
Paul J. Adam writes

> In message <s1e3e203.004@***.gov>, Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
> writes
> >Here is an interesting vehicle question regarding
> >mounting Heavy weapons on Hard points.
> >
> >I'm constructing a yellow jacket with stock stats and
> >placing a Victory rotary Assault cannon under the chin.
> >According to the rules from SRII the Hardpoint
> >provides 1 point of compensation and halves all the
as someone said the -1 is firmpoint the halving hardpoint.

> >recoil mods from the weapon (SRII p 251). Now since
> >the Cannon only fires in FA mode that's 15 shots to
> >compensate for.
>
> According to RBB the Victory fires a maximum of five rounds. Though it's
> 'rotary', it is described in RBB as being a "autofire version" able to
> "fire a maximum of five rounds per action".
>
See updates in SR2 for 2nd ed. now autofire max 12 rnds. Someone said
thats the 18D gun (i forget which of the autocannons is which its
not as if you get to use them often) for +2 recoil per 'shell'.

> The Recoil Modifier is x2, halved by the hardpoint, but remember this
> applies to *uncompensated* recoil. Gas venting to a maximum of 4 is Y800
> per point.
>
> So, 1pt for the hardpoint and (say) 3pts gas venting, firing a maximum
> 5-round burst, gives you 1 point of uncompensated recoil. Double that
> for being an assault cannon, then halve it for the hardpoint, for +1.
>
> Personally, I have the hardpoint halve recoil *before* compensation.
likewise.

> This makes vehicle weapons extremely deadly, but hey, that's the way it
> works for real.
>
Yeah.
12rnds = 24 recoil
hardpoint = 24/2 = 12.
recoil comp4, shock pads improved delux gyromount, (12 recoil comp)
oh look no recoil, 30D anyone ??? no penalties. I have yet to find a
'vaguely' legal way to generate more than 32pts of compensation so
the heavier 20D cannon is limited to 10rnds at +3 recoil per round
but then if you load these things with APDS even great dragons and
banshees are going to hightail it outa there very very fast!

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:30:49 -0400
I appreciate the answers I received about the Hard
point since I don't own the RBB (It's soooo out of
date... and doesn't have enough useful information). I
would like to say at this point that SRII sucks as far as
vehicle design/operation is concerned. I've been
building a scenario for my players and tracking down
exactly what can be put on a vehicle is a pain. What
with trying to figure out what a CF is, deciding how
many CFs a weapon takes up, then figuring out where
the weapon will fit, and finally what arcs of fire it has,
sheesh..... BTW anyone out there care to tell me how
you fit 3 ARES MP-LMP machine guns on to a Harley
Scorpion and still have room for ammo and a driver?

I'm tempted to chuck there rules, use Carwars rules
to build the vehicles, then use SRII stats for the
damage and combat during the game.

Does anyone know if they are going to come out with
a new version of the RBB? And if they do are they
actually going to listen to players/GMs about clearing
up the creation/operation problems in the rules?
Message no. 7
From: "John R. Wicker II" <jrwick00@********.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:57:24 -0400 (EDT)
>I'm constructing a yellow jacket with stock stats and
>placing a Victory rotary Assault cannon under the chin.

Probably one of those mail-order, fiberglass kits, right? The kind
where you use the motor from a Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit, right?
Just be sure you have a good rivet gun. Popped rivets during a run
is a real killer... :-)

John Wicker
Message no. 8
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 07:28:19 -0600 (MDT)
Jeffrey Riordan wrote:
|
[snip]
|
|What with trying to figure out what a CF is, deciding how
|many CFs a weapon takes up, then figuring out where
|the weapon will fit, and finally what arcs of fire it has,
|sheesh...
|
[snip]
|
| Does anyone know if they are going to come out with
|a new version of the RBB? And if they do are they
|actually going to listen to players/GMs about clearing
|up the creation/operation problems in the rules?

According to other people on this list they're working on it.

I hope they scrap the CF crap and base the cost of improvements on the
Body of the vehicle in question similar to the way they limit the
amount of bioware a character can have. I.e., a certain vehicle modification
would "cost" so many points of the vehicle's body. Except for the
essence/magic loss question concerning bioware it works just fine. And
since vehicles aren't going to be casting spells (I hope) that wouldn't be
a problem :)

Or maybe give each vehicle Essence and do something similar to
cyberware, or is CF a vehicle's essence? ;)

Hmm...idea! And for cargo just list the cubic meters and give some formula
for a weight limit based on the amount of Body that hasn't been "spent"
for modifications.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 9
From: "Paolo Marcucci" <paolo@*********.it>
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:59:28 +0200
At 07.28 11/07/96 -0600, you wrote:
>I hope they scrap the CF crap and base the cost of improvements on the
>Body of the vehicle in question similar to the way they limit the
>amount of bioware a character can have. I.e., a certain vehicle modification
>would "cost" so many points of the vehicle's body. Except for the
>essence/magic loss question concerning bioware it works just fine. And
>since vehicles aren't going to be casting spells (I hope) that wouldn't be
>a problem :)

Yes, but will you be able to ground an hellblast through a
quickened/immortal LMG?

*duck*
____________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci paolo@*********.it
InterWare Service Provider Trieste, Italy
http://www.interware.it/ Tel. +39-40-411400
The Shadowrun Archive - http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/
Message no. 10
From: "Mark D. Fender" <mfender@****.orion.org>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:02:26 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Jeffrey Riordan said on 16:52/10 Jul 96...
>
> > I'm constructing a yellow jacket with stock stats and
> > placing a Victory rotary Assault cannon under the chin.
> > According to the rules from SRII the Hardpoint
> > provides 1 point of compensation and halves all the
> > recoil mods from the weapon (SRII p 251). [snip] 6/2=3 points of
> > recoil so +3 TN. HOWEVER there is also the table in
> > SR II that indicates all recoil from heavy weapons is
> > doubled (SRII p89). That puts you right back at the 6
> > points of recoil uncompensated and you're back to +6
> > TN.
>
> Taking a look in the RBB, we see that a Victory cannon fires 12 rounds per
> turn, not 15. It has a recoil modifier of +2 per round, and can accept up
> to 4 points of recoil comp., at 800 nuyen per point.
>
> Let's see, fix that on a hardpoint and your recoil is halved; there is no
> -1 recoil (that's a firmpoint that does that, not a hardpoint). Your
> basic recoil is +24 if you fire all 12 rounds (you can choose to fire
> less, as it's not specifically mentioned it uses minigun rules). That's
> halved, and then you subtract the 4 points of recoil compensation, making
> a total modifier of +8.
>
> I think you're better off firing short bursts instead of all 12 rounds in
> a turn. For aimed fire, anyway; with those 12 rounds it's a good idea to
> use it for suppression fire (see FOF) because it gets you 12 dice to roll
> without worrying about recoil at all, and with the 18D, all you need is
> one hit.
>
Firing short bursts is great, but, as you mentioned, what about
miniguns? Not much of a choice there. I never really had a problem with
these rules until I started Gming our latest group, a group of
smugglers. Our poor rigger is always being chased by every government's
security/military assets and is forced to shoot them in order to save his
butt. Problem is, he's never hit anything. Approx. twelve gaming
sessions, with at least one vehicle occurence in each and he's never hit
anything. Of course, he's still alive, because the NPCs can't hit
anything either. When it's impossible to get below a 15 T# to hit
anyone, vehicle combat is useless. So, as of last game session, I
slightly modified the interpretation in SR.

Mount a weapon in a harpoint and the _base_ target number is halved.
Using the example above, shooting all twelve rounds would be +12, halved
by the hardpoint to +6, then modified by the four points of recoil comp.
to +2. I still double recoil for all other occasions just not for
hardpoints.

PAX
Mark Fender
Death
Scurge
Avaris
Message no. 11
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:23:55 -0600 (MDT)
Paolo Marcucci wrote:
|
|At 07.28 11/07/96 -0600, you wrote:
|>I hope they scrap the CF crap and base the cost of improvements on the
|>Body of the vehicle in question similar to the way they limit the
|>amount of bioware a character can have. I.e., a certain vehicle modification
|>would "cost" so many points of the vehicle's body. Except for the
|>essence/magic loss question concerning bioware it works just fine. And
|>since vehicles aren't going to be casting spells (I hope) that wouldn't be
|>a problem :)
|
|Yes, but will you be able to ground an hellblast through a
|quickened/immortal LMG?
|
|*duck*

ROFL :-D

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 12
From: Alex Van Der Kleut <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 10:36:28 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Mark D. Fender wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Gurth wrote:
>
> > Jeffrey Riordan said on 16:52/10 Jul 96...
> >
> > > I'm constructing a yellow jacket with stock stats and
> > > placing a Victory rotary Assault cannon under the chin.
> > > According to the rules from SRII the Hardpoint
> > > provides 1 point of compensation and halves all the
> > > recoil mods from the weapon (SRII p 251). [snip] 6/2=3 points of
> > > recoil so +3 TN. HOWEVER there is also the table in
> > > SR II that indicates all recoil from heavy weapons is
> > > doubled (SRII p89). That puts you right back at the 6
> > > points of recoil uncompensated and you're back to +6
> > > TN.
> >

Nobody has pointed this out yet, but I have a problem with your basic
setup. A Yellowjacket with "stock stats" is basically a small, lightly
armed and armored scout helicopter. It's made out of light weight
materials and would be mainly used for police for city spotting duty.

A victory rotary assault cannon is a 30mm heavy weapon that is the
equivalent of the main gun on an A-10 tank killer (an American attack
jet). The entire aircraft was designed around this ~20 foot long weapon.
ASAIK the A-10 is the only aircraft that has enough power in the engines
to be able top counter-act the force of the gun.

For an actual attack chopper, like the AH-64 Apache, a 20mm chaingun is
mounted below the fuselage. A chaingun is basically a suped up machine
gun (what FASA calls a super-machine gun but with bigger ammon) that is
about the same size as a regular heavy machine gun. A rotory gun, wether
assault cannon or mini-gun, needs a lot more room to be self contained.

> > Taking a look in the RBB, we see that a Victory cannon fires 12 rounds per
> > turn, not 15. It has a recoil modifier of +2 per round, and can accept up
> > to 4 points of recoil comp., at 800 nuyen per point.
> >
> > Let's see, fix that on a hardpoint and your recoil is halved; there is no
> > -1 recoil (that's a firmpoint that does that, not a hardpoint). Your
> > basic recoil is +24 if you fire all 12 rounds (you can choose to fire
> > less, as it's not specifically mentioned it uses minigun rules). That's
> > halved, and then you subtract the 4 points of recoil compensation, making
> > a total modifier of +8.
> >
> > I think you're better off firing short bursts instead of all 12 rounds in
> > a turn. For aimed fire, anyway; with those 12 rounds it's a good idea to
> > use it for suppression fire (see FOF) because it gets you 12 dice to roll
> > without worrying about recoil at all, and with the 18D, all you need is
> > one hit.
> >

That is the realistic part. You have a huge weapon on an inferior mount
and most of the shots are going to go all over the place. And minigun
style weapons so have a definate minimum fire rate. The gun in the A-10
has a cyclic rate of (I think) 8000 rpm but only carries 5000 rounds.
Fire control is very light one second taps on the trigger that fire 20~30
rounds at a time (minimum).

> Firing short bursts is great, but, as you mentioned, what about
> miniguns? Not much of a choice there. I never really had a problem with
> these rules until I started Gming our latest group, a group of
> smugglers. Our poor rigger is always being chased by every government's
> security/military assets and is forced to shoot them in order to save his
> butt. Problem is, he's never hit anything. Approx. twelve gaming
> sessions, with at least one vehicle occurence in each and he's never hit
> anything. Of course, he's still alive, because the NPCs can't hit
> anything either. When it's impossible to get below a 15 T# to hit
> anyone, vehicle combat is useless. So, as of last game session, I
> slightly modified the interpretation in SR.
>

Average target numbers in our non-vehicle combat seem to hover around 8.
I've made some of my best shots at 15+. Try hitting a moving target,
through armored glass, tinted for blind fire, at double extreme range.
Target number: 21. Net result: one crashed jeep:)

> Mount a weapon in a harpoint and the _base_ target number is halved.
> Using the example above, shooting all twelve rounds would be +12, halved
> by the hardpoint to +6, then modified by the four points of recoil comp.
> to +2. I still double recoil for all other occasions just not for
> hardpoints.
>

The way I read the rules, you can mount a weapon on a hardpoint and get
those recoil mods. But I always took the hardpoint and mounted some
kind of turret on it. That gives you better recoil compensation and a
greater field of fire for your weapon.

Alex
Message no. 13
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:46:22 GMT
David Buehrer writes
>
> I hope they scrap the CF crap and base the cost of improvements on the
> Body of the vehicle in question similar to the way they limit the
> amount of bioware a character can have.
the number of firm/hard points is already so limited see SR2 gear
descriptions.
But true its not good enough.
> I.e., a certain vehicle modification
> would "cost" so many points of the vehicle's body.

> Or maybe give each vehicle Essence and do something similar to
> cyberware, or is CF a vehicle's essence? ;)
>
i woudn't call it essence!

> Hmm...idea! And for cargo just list the cubic meters and give some formula
> for a weight limit based on the amount of Body that hasn't been "spent"
> for modifications.
>
one of the big problems with CF is they are too vague, as soon as
PC's want to do something the book does not cover its a royal pain
working out how big certain vehicles are as some of the pictures are
hopeless.

Mark
Message no. 14
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:24:04 +0100
In message <s1e4bdfe.076@***.gov>, Jeffrey Riordan <JRIORDAN@***.gov>
writes
>
> I'm tempted to chuck there rules, use Carwars rules
>to build the vehicles, then use SRII stats for the
>damage and combat during the game.

Oddly enough, that's what I do :)


--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 15
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:21:51 +0100
In message <199607110946.LAA25038@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>Paul J. Adam said on 23:18/10 Jul 96...
>
>> According to RBB the Victory fires a maximum of five rounds. Though it's
>> 'rotary', it is described in RBB as being a "autofire version" able to
>> "fire a maximum of five rounds per action".
>
>That was in SR1. In SRII, it was adjusted to 12 rounds per action.

<grabs book, riffles pages>

Yes, but the Vigilant and Victory still state "maximum rate of fire of
12 rounds per action" on P283 :) whereas the Vengeance and Vanquisher
are both "minigun class weapons using those rules".

If there's nothing between "full on miniguns" and "single shot
cannon",
then there's a market opportunity my PC is exploiting, with some old
plans for the M230 Chain Gun and the M242 Bushmaster :)

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 16
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 17:37:12 +0100
In message <Pine.HPP.3.91.960711101859.173A-100000@******.engin.umich.ed
u>, Alex Van Der Kleut <sommers@*****.umich.edu> writes
>Nobody has pointed this out yet, but I have a problem with your basic
>setup. A Yellowjacket with "stock stats" is basically a small, lightly
>armed and armored scout helicopter. It's made out of light weight
>materials and would be mainly used for police for city spotting duty.
>
>A victory rotary assault cannon is a 30mm heavy weapon that is the
>equivalent of the main gun on an A-10 tank killer (an American attack
>jet). The entire aircraft was designed around this ~20 foot long weapon.
>ASAIK the A-10 is the only aircraft that has enough power in the engines
>to be able top counter-act the force of the gun.

No way, a GAU-8A is a lot bigger and better than that. A SR autocannon
is only about 20mm, and you can hang those on just about any helicopter
around.

>For an actual attack chopper, like the AH-64 Apache, a 20mm chaingun is
>mounted below the fuselage. A chaingun is basically a suped up machine
>gun (what FASA calls a super-machine gun but with bigger ammon) that is
>about the same size as a regular heavy machine gun. A rotory gun, wether
>assault cannon or mini-gun, needs a lot more room to be self contained.

The gun on the Apache is the M230, 30mm calibre, firing the same 30mm
ammunition as the standard ADEN (British) and DEFA (French) cannon
widely used on aircraft.

"Chain gun" describes the method of operation, basically driving the
weapon electrically using a chain to actuate and cycle the bolt. There
are "chain guns" in 7.62mm (coaxial on the Warrior IFV), 25mm (Bradley
main armament, deck armament on many US warships) and 30mm (AH-64
armament).

Just for reference, the three-barreled "rotary" M197 cannon used in the
chin of the AH-1W Supercobra has a rate of fire of about 750 rounds per
minute, the same as the single-barreled M230 on the Apache and less than
the 1200-1500rpm achieved by single-barreled ADENs.

"Rotary cannon" is a FASAism for "a cannon with a decent rate of
fire",
doesn't mean it is a Gatling-type weapon: could be a revolver-cannon
like the ADEN or Mark 12. Light helicopters like the Gazelle can carry a
a pair of 20mm cannon in twin pods (and those cannon put out 800 rounds
a minute each) without trouble.

>That is the realistic part. You have a huge weapon on an inferior mount
>and most of the shots are going to go all over the place. And minigun
>style weapons so have a definate minimum fire rate. The gun in the A-10
>has a cyclic rate of (I think) 8000 rpm but only carries 5000 rounds.

2,100 rpm low rate, 4,200 high rate. ISTR low rate is disabled these
days. Ammo load is about 1300 rounds. Don't forget that IRL that
dispersion is what means you get a hit on the target: typically you want
3-4 mils of dispersion, so at 1000 yards your shots are scattered into a
3 or 4 metre circle.

Miniguns can fire at any rate, you just change the drive mechanism. The
same basic mechanism fires at 750rpm (M197) up to 6000rpm (M61).

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 17
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:48:20 +0100
Mark D. Fender said on 9:02/11 Jul 96...

> Firing short bursts is great, but, as you mentioned, what about
> miniguns? Not much of a choice there.

Either go by the book and say you always fire 15 rounds with a minigun, or
try applying some real-world stuff and allow the player to vary the power
going to the minigun, and by that the rate of fire. You see, the great
thing about electrically-driven guns is that you can make them fire at
nearly any rpm, up to a certain practical maximum that depends on the gun
and its ammo (and how it cooks off, sometimes :)

> Mount a weapon in a harpoint and the _base_ target number is halved.
> Using the example above, shooting all twelve rounds would be +12, halved
> by the hardpoint to +6, then modified by the four points of recoil comp.
> to +2. I still double recoil for all other occasions just not for
> hardpoints.

I agree with you that the TN is too high... A minigun on a hardpoint will
fire against a base TN of 11 if the vehicle is standing still (4, +7 from
recoil), but you might not know that you can add more than one gas vent to
a minigun and get cumulative bonuses (a DLoH ruling). All you need is
two gas vent-4's and you're out of recoil trouble...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Advertising: Your right to ignore.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:48:20 +0100
Alex Van Der Kleut said on 10:36/11 Jul 96...

(Although not really directly SR-relevant, the following should give some
insight into real-world helicopter guns.)

> For an actual attack chopper, like the AH-64 Apache, a 20mm chaingun is

The M230 fires 30 mm ADEN/DEFA ammo, not 20 mm. This is a different round
than that used in the A-10's gun, BTW. Most western attack helicopters
mount a 20 mm gun, though.

> mounted below the fuselage. A chaingun is basically a suped up machine
> gun (what FASA calls a super-machine gun but with bigger ammon) that is
> about the same size as a regular heavy machine gun. A rotory gun, wether
> assault cannon or mini-gun, needs a lot more room to be self contained.

Some AH-1G Cobras in Vietnam were fitted with a 20 mm M35 cannon, which is
a slightly downrated version of the M61A1 aircraft armament. This gun was
mounted on the inner pylon on the left wing, with ammo boxes carried on
either side of the fuselage, above the landing skids. The corresponding
right pylon was empty when the gun was fitted.

You were right about the light construction, though. These Cobras had to
be fitted with reinforced plating on the left side of the cockpit, else
rivets would pop. Also, instruments would give faulty readings for a
while after firing (this was the late 1960s, so it was all vacuum tubes
and stuff), and the gunner had to hold the handle of his cockpit hatch
(on the left side of the canopy) when the gun was fired so the hatch
wouldn't go open because of the vibrations.

> That is the realistic part. You have a huge weapon on an inferior mount
> and most of the shots are going to go all over the place. And minigun
> style weapons so have a definate minimum fire rate. The gun in the A-10
> has a cyclic rate of (I think) 8000 rpm but only carries 5000 rounds.

2100 rpm or 4200 rpm, the latter for use against airborne targets. Only
1350 rounds are carried.

> Fire control is very light one second taps on the trigger that fire 20~30
> rounds at a time (minimum).

Some chain guns are set to fire a fixed burst length -- the 20 mm M197
gun in the chin turret of USMC AH-1J, -1T and -1Ws, and US Army AH-1E and
-1Fs (both formerly known as AH-1S) fires 16 rounds every time the
trigger is pulled. This gun is different from the M35 mentioned above
because it only has 3 barrels where the M35 has six, but it is also
derived from the M61A1.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Advertising: Your right to ignore.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 19
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 11:48:20 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 17:21/11 Jul 96...

> >> According to RBB the Victory fires a maximum of five rounds. Though it's
> >> 'rotary', it is described in RBB as being a "autofire version"
able to
> >> "fire a maximum of five rounds per action".
> >
> >That was in SR1. In SRII, it was adjusted to 12 rounds per action.
>
> <grabs book, riffles pages>
>
> Yes, but the Vigilant and Victory still state "maximum rate of fire of
> 12 rounds per action" on P283 :) whereas the Vengeance and Vanquisher
> are both "minigun class weapons using those rules".

So what are you trying to say? That a Vigilant or Victory cannon fires 12
rounds per action, and minigun-class weapons fire 15? I've got this
feeling that's what I said too... :)

> If there's nothing between "full on miniguns" and "single shot
cannon",
> then there's a market opportunity my PC is exploiting, with some old
> plans for the M230 Chain Gun and the M242 Bushmaster :)

There's the Vigilant and Victory cannons, IMHO. Although I don't see why
the cannons of today wouldn't be in use anymore (except perhaps if nobody
makes ammo for it anymore... You can't reload 25 mm KBA ammo :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Advertising: Your right to ignore.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 20
From: "Paolo Falco - Seen a Fox?" <Falco@****.it>
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:11:25 +0200
On 11 Jul 96, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> In message <s1e4bdfe.076@***.gov>, Jeffrey Riordan
> <JRIORDAN@***.gov> writes > > I'm tempted to chuck there
> rules, use Carwars rules >to build the vehicles, then use SRII
> stats for the >damage and combat during the game.
>
> Oddly enough, that's what I do :)

How do you handle rigger reaction increases? Could we see some
rules? Thankayou! :)

------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Falco | "I closed my shop and you brought only ONE
Ironbound Section | ball?" (from "Clerks" - and My Experience)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Skater's Site And Generally Paradoxal Poetry Page With Lemmings at
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2717
------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 21
From: Droopy <droopy@**.net>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:24:02 -0400
At 04:52 PM 7/10/96 -0400, Jeffrey Riordan wrote:

>Here is an interesting vehicle question regarding
>mounting Heavy weapons on Hard points.

>According to the rules from SRII the Hardpoint
>provides 1 point of compensation and halves all the
>recoil mods from the weapon (SRII p 251). Now since
<snip>
>recoil so +3 TN. HOWEVER there is also the table in
>SR II that indicates all recoil from heavy weapons is
>doubled (SRII p89). That puts you right back at the 6
>points of recoil uncompensated and you're back to +6
>TN.
> While I may not have explained it properly I think
>you see my point about the 2 conflicting rules over
>halving and then doubling the same number. Sort of
>similar to the Ram vs Barrier ambiguity.

The rules don't conflict. The heavy weapon causes 2 points of recoil per
round and the hardpoint halves that. IOW a heavy weapon mounted on a
hardpoint has the same recoil as a light weapon.


--Droopy
Message no. 22
From: Droopy <droopy@**.net>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 20:24:13 -0400
At 11:15 AM 7/11/96 GMT, Mark Steedman wrote:

>> This makes vehicle weapons extremely deadly, but hey, that's the way it
>> works for real.
>>
>Yeah.
>12rnds = 24 recoil
>hardpoint = 24/2 = 12.
>recoil comp4, shock pads improved delux gyromount, (12 recoil comp)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
These are personal recoil reduction devices. They aren't much good on a
hardpoint.


--Droopy
Message no. 23
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 1996 11:06:20 +0100
Droopy said on 20:24/12 Jul 96...

> >12rnds = 24 recoil
> >hardpoint = 24/2 = 12.
> >recoil comp4, shock pads improved delux gyromount, (12 recoil comp)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> These are personal recoil reduction devices. They aren't much good on a
> hardpoint.

That's what you say. I allow shock pads and gas vents to be installed on a
weapon that's fitted to a hard- or firmpoint, but not gyromounts. My
reasoning is that the gas vent can always be fitted, to any weapon which
has room on the muzzle, while shock pads represent some kind of recoil
absorbtion system like a hydraulic buffer, for example.

Although for cannons like the Victory, I go with the notation in the RBB,
that they can get 4 points of recoil compensation at maximum, using the
prices listed in that book.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The trick relied on the laws of physics failing to spot the flaw until
the journey was complete.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 24
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:44:52 -0500 (CDT)
> There's the Vigilant and Victory cannons, IMHO. Although I don't see why
> the cannons of today wouldn't be in use anymore (except perhaps if nobody
> makes ammo for it anymore... You can't reload 25 mm KBA ammo :)

It shouldn't be too hard, either get an armorer contact, or make your
own,
\
a la In The Line Of Fire <malkovich>

Seriously, if you can find it, I'd recommend the HardWired supplement for
Cyberpunk, they have some stuff on making your own guns, not just ammo.
Made sense to me... written by WJW, too!
Message no. 25
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:49:00 +0100
Brian Johnson said on 12:44/15 Jul 96...

> >You can't reload 25 mm KBA ammo :)
>
> It shouldn't be too hard, either get an armorer contact, or make your
> own,
> \
> a la In The Line Of Fire <malkovich>

You cannot reload 25 mm KBA rounds because the cartridge case gets
deformed during firing... There's a groove running around the case where
the belt links grip into it, and when fired the groove expands, leaving a
clearly visible line on the casing.

Totally SR-irrelevant, I know...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Desolate and without purpose.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 26
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:24:56 -0500 (CDT)
> > >You can't reload 25 mm KBA ammo :)
> >
> > It shouldn't be too hard, either get an armorer contact, or make your
> > own,
> > \
> > a la In The Line Of Fire <malkovich>
>
> You cannot reload 25 mm KBA rounds because the cartridge case gets
> deformed during firing... There's a groove running around the case where
> the belt links grip into it, and when fired the groove expands, leaving a
> clearly visible line on the casing.

so get the armorer to make the whole thing. who saves cartridges anyway
in SR. can't you switch to caseless with a belt feed anyhow?
Message no. 27
From: Droopy <droopy@**.net>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:25:10 -0400
At 11:06 AM 7/13/96 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>> These are personal recoil reduction devices. They aren't much good on a
>> hardpoint.
>
>That's what you say. I allow shock pads and gas vents to be installed on a
>weapon that's fitted to a hard- or firmpoint, but not gyromounts. My

I never said anything about gas vents. They are barrel mounted and as such
have no bearing on the other end of the weapon. Shock pads OTOH, are an
attachment that fits onto the stock of the weapon reducing the actual
blowback recoil of the weapon.

>reasoning is that the gas vent can always be fitted, to any weapon which
>has room on the muzzle, while shock pads represent some kind of recoil
>absorbtion system like a hydraulic buffer, for example.

A weapon bolted down to a hardpoint transfers its recoil directly to that
hardpoint causing the entire vehicle to move. As such, hardpoints already
have recoil compensation such as shock pads would provide built in.


--Droopy
Message no. 28
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:46:43 +0100
Brian Johnson said on 10:24/16 Jul 96...

> so get the armorer to make the whole thing. who saves cartridges anyway
> in SR.

That's true, I've never seen anyone in SR hang a bag on their gun to
collect spent cases... Although it's worth considering if you want to
leave as little traces as possible behind.

> can't you switch to caseless with a belt feed anyhow?

I don't see why you couldn't. It would reduce your rate of fire a bit,
though (the G11 rifle used caseless rounds because it needed the very
high ROF of 2000 rpm) because you need to remove the links from the
rounds.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Excuse me ma'am for being so rude
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 29
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:46:43 +0100
Droopy said on 12:25/16 Jul 96...

> >reasoning is that the gas vent can always be fitted, to any weapon which
> >has room on the muzzle, while shock pads represent some kind of recoil
> >absorbtion system like a hydraulic buffer, for example.
>
> A weapon bolted down to a hardpoint transfers its recoil directly to that
> hardpoint causing the entire vehicle to move. As such, hardpoints already
> have recoil compensation such as shock pads would provide built in.

This is simply my word against yours, but you don't *need* to bolt down a
weapon directly to the hardpoint. I can think of at least one rather
efficient way of reducing the felt recoil by use of a spring or hydraulic
buffer, although you could then say that that's incorporated in any
hardpoint you get anyway...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Excuse me ma'am for being so rude
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 30
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:49:08 -0500
As someone who is not an expert in armed vehicle design, I wonder if anyone
with more RL knowledge could answer this: Would you get more accuracy by
bolting a weapon to a hardpoint so that the recoil is applied to the whole mass of
the vehicle, or by putting some sort of hydraulic shock pad (with some
unavoidable wiggle) between the weapon and the vehicle? I would think that until
you get to gyro-mount stuff (to correct for vehicle movement), you want the most
rigid mount you can find.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 31
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 20:04:28 +0000
On 17 Jul 96 at 8:49, Mike Elkins wrote:
> As someone who is not an expert in armed vehicle design, I wonder if anyone
> with more RL knowledge could answer this: Would you get more accuracy by
> bolting a weapon to a hardpoint so that the recoil is applied to the whole mass of
> the vehicle, or by putting some sort of hydraulic shock pad (with some
> unavoidable wiggle) between the weapon and the vehicle? I would think that until
> you get to gyro-mount stuff (to correct for vehicle movement), you want the most
> rigid mount you can find.
I am not an expert on vehicle mounted weapons (the TUeV and police woun't let
me mount a LMG on my Golf :-( ) but normally I'd say you'd go for an elastic
link because somewhere the material would give in with a hard, unflexible one.
The energy (the recoil) would tear at the weapon's hold and each part
thereafter this hold is fixed to, and eventually something will break. With an
elastic hold (shockpad, some kind of gyro stabilisation) the energy would be
absorbed before, so the hold will hold (hm... hold longer would be more
accurate I think (Hello, police? I HAVE to have that LMG - for scintific
reasons, of course!)).


Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 32
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 14:27:40 -0500
Sascha wrote: "normally I'd say you'd go for an elastic link because somewhere
the material would give in with a hard, unflexible one. The energy (the recoil)
would tear at the weapon's hold and each part thereafter this hold is fixed to, and
eventually something will break. "

But that is the reason you can only mount weapons on hard points anyway: they
are designed to take the stress there. Also, the problem there is really vibration
which causes bolts to work loose, pops rivets, etc, rather than recoil which spoils
your aim, I would think.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 33
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Hard point question -Reply
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 13:24:47 -0600 (MDT)
Mike Elkins wrote:
Sascha wrote: "normally I'd say you'd go for an elastic link
because somewhere |the material would give in with a hard, unflexible
one. The energy (the recoil) |would tear at the weapon's hold and each
part thereafter this hold is fixed to, and eventually something will
break. " |

Mike Elkins worte: |But that is the reason you can only mount weapons
on hard points anyway: they |are designed to take the stress there.
Also, the problem there is really vibration |which causes bolts to work
loose, pops rivets, etc, rather than recoil which spoils |your aim, I
would think. | |Double-Domed Mike | |

How about if the recoil generated by the weapon (after
modifications) is more than the body (or some multiple of
the body) and you bolt it down tight to eliminated all the
recoil the you roll a damage resistance test vs. the
unmodified recoil minus the body to see if damage occurs.
And, you could add that doing this can only subtract an
amount of recoil equal to twice the body (anything
exceeding this will move the vehicle when fired). Flying
vehicles only get recoil equal to their body.

Example: Weapon with a recoil of 10 is bolted onto a car
with a body of 6. Every time the weapon is fired there is
no recoil but the vehicle has to make a DRT vs a 4. And
call the damage level moderate since the area is small but
it is on the frame (hardpoint).

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 34
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:27:40 +0100
In message <199607171149.NAA02933@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>That's true, I've never seen anyone in SR hang a bag on their gun to
>collect spent cases...

My merc puts one on his submachinegun. No point having a suppressed
weapon if the empty brass is clattering and jingling all over the
floor... plus, you can end up rollerskating on spent cases if you're not
careful, they bounce off walls and into faces (or inside clothing, and
they are *hot*). I know of at least one person who lost an eye during an
exercise to a fired case.

>I don't see why you couldn't. It would reduce your rate of fire a bit,
>though (the G11 rifle used caseless rounds because it needed the very
>high ROF of 2000 rpm) because you need to remove the links from the
>rounds.

Depends what the ROF was in the first place.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 35
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:35:40 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 8:49/17 Jul 96...

> As someone who is not an expert in armed vehicle design, I wonder if anyone
> with more RL knowledge could answer this: Would you get more accuracy by
> bolting a weapon to a hardpoint so that the recoil is applied to the whole mass of
> the vehicle, or by putting some sort of hydraulic shock pad (with some
> unavoidable wiggle) between the weapon and the vehicle? I would think that until
> you get to gyro-mount stuff (to correct for vehicle movement), you want the most
> rigid mount you can find.

Either way would work, I think. If you bolt it down absolutely ridigdly,
your entire vehicle absorbs the recoil; with a buffer of some sort, you
can do the same.
Although my guess is that firmly fixing it to the vehicle is only useful
for light weapons, or on heavy vehicles, because of the high forces
involved in recoil (a 25 mm Oerlikon KBB cannon has a recoil force of
8,000 N per shot, which would be kinda bad for a typical car's handling, I
think...)

If you build a well-designed "wiggly" mount (as you referred to it :) you
can let it create a balance position: the gun is fired, recoils back a
bit, and is brought forward again by a spring. Before the gun is fully
forward you fire it again, so the recoil force has to overcome the forward
movement of the gun first. Do it right and the gun'll keep more or less
hanging in the middle somewhere.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I've often tried to hold the sea, the sun, the fields, the tide.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 36
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:35:40 +0100
Paul J. Adam said on 19:27/17 Jul 96...

> >I don't see why you couldn't. It would reduce your rate of fire a bit,
> >though (the G11 rifle used caseless rounds because it needed the very
> >high ROF of 2000 rpm) because you need to remove the links from the
> >rounds.
>
> Depends what the ROF was in the first place.

Granted. I was assuming you switch to caseless because you need a high
ROF.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I've often tried to hold the sea, the sun, the fields, the tide.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 37
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.com>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:57:51 -0500
David Bruehrer wrote
>How about if the recoil generated by the weapon (after modifications) is more
>than the body (or some multiple of the body) and you bolt it down tight to
>eliminated all the recoil the you roll a damage resistance test vs. the unmodified
>recoil minus the body to see if damage occurs.
>And, you could add that doing this can only subtract an amount of recoil equal
>to twice the body (anything exceeding this will move the vehicle when fired).
>Flying vehicles only get recoil equal to their body.

It seems to me this level of detail should be part of vehicle design, not game play.
Put limitiations on what weapons fit on what vehicles (and the firmpoint/hardpoint
designations are a good first approximation) and do the calculations at
installation. After that, if it works, it works.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 38
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:05:48 -0600 (MDT)
----------------------------------
David Bruehrer wrote:
>How about if the recoil generated by the weapon (after modifications)
is more >than the body (or some multiple of the body) and you bolt it
down tight to >eliminated all the recoil the you roll a damage
resistance test vs. the unmodified >recoil minus the body to see if
damage occurs. >And, you could add that doing this can only subtract
an amount of recoil equal >to twice the body (anything exceeding this
will move the vehicle when fired). >Flying vehicles only get recoil
equal to their body.

Mike Elkins Wrote:
It seems to me this level of detail should be part of vehicle design,
not game play. Put limitiations on what weapons fit on what vehicles
(and the firmpoint/hardpoint designations are a good first
approximation) and do the calculations at installation. After that, if
it works, it works.
-----------------------------------

This is off the top of my head but it conveys the basic
idea. Use it if you want, modify it as needed.

You could go with a formula that involves any left over
recoil, the body of the vehicle, and the number of
firmpoints/hardpoints required. Something like Recoil/Body
(round up) equals number of points required (if the weapon
required firmpoints it needs additional firmpoints,
likewise for weapons that require hardpoints). Figure out
the cost modifier of the mount based on the number of
points it requires, maybe +10% and +10% per firmpoint, +20%
per hardpoint. Now the recoil is taken care of, its
strapped down good and tight, and you've got a cost
modifier.

I would add that a skill test is required to control the
vehicle if its moving while firing a Big gun (something
with a *base* recoil higher than the Body, or a multiple of
the Body, with different formulas for ground and flying
vehicles).

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"Spare the duct tape, spoil the job." - endnote
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||ext.132||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like
underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~~~~
Message no. 39
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hard point question
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 20:08:09 +0100
In message <199607180935.LAA10743@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.nl> writes
>Either way would work, I think. If you bolt it down absolutely ridigdly,
>your entire vehicle absorbs the recoil; with a buffer of some sort, you
>can do the same.
>Although my guess is that firmly fixing it to the vehicle is only useful
>for light weapons, or on heavy vehicles, because of the high forces
>involved in recoil (a 25 mm Oerlikon KBB cannon has a recoil force of
>8,000 N per shot, which would be kinda bad for a typical car's handling, I
>think...)

Depends on weapon and mounting: a 30mm ASP cannon produces no more
recoil force than a .50cal machine gun (lower peaks, longer duration)

The KBA would slow the car by about 2mph per round for a smallish
(750kg) vehicle, BTW. Shouldn't be too bad for a fore-and-aft mount or
for firing while stopped, but shooting on corners could be interesting.
Certainly quite a ride :)

>If you build a well-designed "wiggly" mount (as you referred to it :) you
>can let it create a balance position: the gun is fired, recoils back a
>bit, and is brought forward again by a spring. Before the gun is fully
>forward you fire it again, so the recoil force has to overcome the forward
>movement of the gun first. Do it right and the gun'll keep more or less
>hanging in the middle somewhere.

This being what is used on the ASP cannon I mentioned.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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