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Message no. 1
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 11:57:18 +0100
I really hate to bring this sugject up again - yes I know this thread is
worse than the magic(k) thread :), BUT I was going through HB for the nth time
and suddenly it hit me like a ton of blocks. Ehrans daughter - the only one
of the group of powerfull elves that we have some stats on - has the powers
of imunity to age/pathogenes etc. now what does that tell us?
Do normal elves - the kind that runs around on the street - have such
powers ? or any kind of special power for that matter. Well the answer is
now, and where does that leave us? Well if you ask me the answer is clear
especially when one considers that Ehrans daughter is certainly not older
that 30 years - this eliminates any 4th world stuff. There must be some
sort of genetic factor here, Ehran, Ni'Faira (aka Bloodquenn), Harlequin
and their pals are not elves, well at least not of the normal variety.
Theyr DNA is altered, they do not use magic or tech to prolong their lives
they ARE GENETICALLY immortal.
The only problem with this theory is why would Ehran 'waste' his genetic
material on a child he abandoned. Or maybe it was all a scamm to get a spy
into Harlequin's HQ. Hmmmm........

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 20:58:20 +0930
>
> I really hate to bring this sugject up again - yes I know this thread is
> worse than the magic(k) thread :), BUT I was going through HB for the nth time
> and suddenly it hit me like a ton of blocks. Ehrans daughter - the only one
> of the group of powerfull elves that we have some stats on - has the powers
> of imunity to age/pathogenes etc. now what does that tell us?

It tells us that it is hereditary. So it's probably a genetic factor (which
makes sense), though it's probably induced magically. There's some hints on
this in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook (they mention that elves have a
genetic block which, IF TRIGGERED, could give immortality and the rest.)

BTW, Frosty isn't particularly powerful. Not surprisingly, she's not that
old.

> Do normal elves - the kind that runs around on the street - have such
> powers ? or any kind of special power for that matter. Well the answer is
> now, and where does that leave us? Well if you ask me the answer is clear
> especially when one considers that Ehrans daughter is certainly not older
> that 30 years - this eliminates any 4th world stuff. There must be some
> sort of genetic factor here, Ehran, Ni'Faira (aka Bloodquenn), Harlequin
> and their pals are not elves, well at least not of the normal variety.
> Theyr DNA is altered, they do not use magic or tech to prolong their lives
> they ARE GENETICALLY immortal.

Ah... but how did they _become_ genetically immortal? And they are normal
elves, albeit extremely powerful elves.

> The only problem with this theory is why would Ehran 'waste' his genetic
> material on a child he abandoned. Or maybe it was all a scamm to get a spy
> into Harlequin's HQ. Hmmmm........

Maybe he knocked up some girl and she left him before it became obvious?
(It's been a while since I played "Harlequin", but wasn't Ehran unaware of
her relationship to him?)

(BTW, the bit in Tir Tairngire Sourcebook that mentions the genetic
immortality of elves says that the "complex" is present in ALL metatypes,
but has only become active in certain elves, and that it requires high mana
levels to become active. Soooo... let's say that there's a ritual to
activate it. Once activated, it stays activiated. Elves require less mana
than others to activate it, due to some fluke in their makeup. Some elves
even become naturally immortal (let's say Frosty is one of these). Heck,
have all the major elves naturally immortal. As a side point... that new
short story, about the insect spirit sent to kill Damien Knight. That mage
in it was human, and he hinted he'd learnt his power long ago, and that
he's spent a lot of time amongst the stars. Maybe he's another immortal?)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 3
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 12:40:25 +0100
> (BTW, the bit in Tir Tairngire Sourcebook that mentions the genetic
> immortality of elves says that the "complex" is present in ALL metatypes,
> but has only become active in certain elves, and that it requires high mana
> levels to become active. Soooo... let's say that there's a ritual to
> activate it. Once activated, it stays activiated.

Its been a really long time since I last read the Tir sourcebook of
Harlequin for that matter, but I think you are right and this is a very
interesting thought. This ritual however must has permanent results -
it alters you DNA and practically chance who you are. So your decendants
naturally share this DNA and they too have the immortality factor. This
would mean that immortal elves should be pretty damn carefull not to
'knock up'/'get knocked up' or the world would be prety soon full of them.


> have all the major elves naturally immortal. As a side point... that new
> short story, about the insect spirit sent to kill Damien Knight. That mage
> in it was human, and he hinted he'd learnt his power long ago, and that
> he's spent a lot of time amongst the stars. Maybe he's another immortal?)

Could you either post the story to the list or mail me a copy ? I'd be
most gratefull.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 21:48:20 +0930
>
> Could you either post the story to the list or mail me a copy ? I'd be
> most gratefull.
>

I've seen it in NAGEE 6, and on one of the list member's WWW pages.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 5
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff (fwd)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 13:47:59 MET
> > Could you either post the story to the list or mail me a copy ? I'd be
> > most gratefull.
> >
>
> I've seen it in NAGEE 6, and on one of the list member's WWW pages.
> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au

It's on my page with the title of: Hunter and Prey - by Tom Dowd

Bye, Paolo
--
________________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci ICBM: 45:38:12N 13:46:36E 95h
e-mail: marcucci@***.ts.astro.it
www: http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci/home.html
"Reboot it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" - Gareth Owen :)
Message no. 6
From: Gregory Reade <readeg@***.GOV>
Subject: Re[2]: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 09:30:10 EST
I'm just reading "Never Trust an Elf" for the first time, and am about halfway
through. It has started bringing up many topics relating to certain Elves of
the Tir (princes, etc.) being immortal, and finding a way to make this change.
I'll let you know when I finish it if there's anything to that plotline. (I'm
sure some others here have already read the book... ;) )

Gregory

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Author: bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU at unix-mail
Date: 01/25/95 08:58 PM


>
> I really hate to bring this sugject up again - yes I know this thread is
> worse than the magic(k) thread :), BUT I was going through HB for the nth time
> and suddenly it hit me like a ton of blocks. Ehrans daughter - the only one
> of the group of powerfull elves that we have some stats on - has the powers
> of imunity to age/pathogenes etc. now what does that tell us?

It tells us that it is hereditary. So it's probably a genetic factor (which
makes sense), though it's probably induced magically. There's some hints on
this in the Tir Tairngire sourcebook (they mention that elves have a
genetic block which, IF TRIGGERED, could give immortality and the rest.)

BTW, Frosty isn't particularly powerful. Not surprisingly, she's not that
old.

> Do normal elves - the kind that runs around on the street - have such
> powers ? or any kind of special power for that matter. Well the answer is
> now, and where does that leave us? Well if you ask me the answer is clear
> especially when one considers that Ehrans daughter is certainly not older
> that 30 years - this eliminates any 4th world stuff. There must be some
> sort of genetic factor here, Ehran, Ni'Faira (aka Bloodquenn), Harlequin
> and their pals are not elves, well at least not of the normal variety.
> Theyr DNA is altered, they do not use magic or tech to prolong their lives
> they ARE GENETICALLY immortal.

Ah... but how did they _become_ genetically immortal? And they are normal
elves, albeit extremely powerful elves.

> The only problem with this theory is why would Ehran 'waste' his genetic
> material on a child he abandoned. Or maybe it was all a scamm to get a spy
> into Harlequin's HQ. Hmmmm........

Maybe he knocked up some girl and she left him before it became obvious?
(It's been a while since I played "Harlequin", but wasn't Ehran unaware of
her relationship to him?)

(BTW, the bit in Tir Tairngire Sourcebook that mentions the genetic
immortality of elves says that the "complex" is present in ALL metatypes,
but has only become active in certain elves, and that it requires high mana
levels to become active. Soooo... let's say that there's a ritual to
activate it. Once activated, it stays activiated. Elves require less mana
than others to activate it, due to some fluke in their makeup. Some elves
even become naturally immortal (let's say Frosty is one of these). Heck,
have all the major elves naturally immortal. As a side point... that new
short story, about the insect spirit sent to kill Damien Knight. That mage
in it was human, and he hinted he'd learnt his power long ago, and that
he's spent a lot of time amongst the stars. Maybe he's another immortal?)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 7
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 10:26:50 -0600
If you read HB a little closer you will see that it says that some Elves
are immortal and the Jane inherited the factor from her father. It is
probablely safe to assume all the major elvish rulers are immortal (at
least in the Tirs). But on greater scale, most aren't. If runners are
thinking about, would it really matter. How many of you live that long
anyways, and after a while don't you want to get out of the biz, especial
when you know how long you will be living and how dangerous your life
is.

Here is a thought for everyone though. Immortal humans (no not
Highlander), isn't it possible that either the immortality factor was
transfered to a human (or any race) or that there was an immortal elf who
didn't look it (he looked human, genetic flaw). Now that might be
interesting, the elves of the world out to get rid of the freak that
could destroy all their plans.

-Andrew
Message no. 8
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 10:30:49 -0600
One more thing, as for the 4th world and the Immortals not using magic to
extend their lives. In Earthdawn it mentions how there were some elves
(the Blood Queen) that were using magic to extend their lives unnaturally
long. Isn't it possible that through some ritual they changed their
aging and it became a genetic factor. Why is everyone worried about
immortal elves, I would think that the fact Dragons seem to be immortal
would scare everyone more. I mean if I had my choice, I think the
immortal thing that is a hell of a lot bigger than me and can eat me or
toast me or cast spells on me wouldn't be what I would like to run into.

-Andrew
Message no. 9
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 10:36:38 -0600
On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> have all the major elves naturally immortal. As a side point... that new
> short story, about the insect spirit sent to kill Damien Knight. That mage
> in it was human, and he hinted he'd learnt his power long ago, and that
> he's spent a lot of time amongst the stars. Maybe he's another immortal?)
>

Who said he was a human mage. Didn't it say something like he was
summoned when Knight thought there was going to be trouble. He could be
some sort of spirit or something. Just a thought.

-Andrew
Message no. 10
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 17:33:26 +0100
> One more thing, as for the 4th world and the Immortals not using magic to
> extend their lives. In Earthdawn it mentions how there were some elves
> (the Blood Queen) that were using magic to extend their lives unnaturally
> long. Isn't it possible that through some ritual they changed their
> aging and it became a genetic factor. Why is everyone worried about
> immortal elves, I would think that the fact Dragons seem to be immortal
> would scare everyone more. I mean if I had my choice, I think the
> immortal thing that is a hell of a lot bigger than me and can eat me or
> toast me or cast spells on me wouldn't be what I would like to run into.

Well its not about fear, as both an immortal dragoin and one of the immortal
elves could quite easily pulverise the average runner (well most of the time).
Its more a fascination and a kind of revenge most of us find in this subject,
as Shadowrun is the first game seting I know of that treats elves with the
respect they are due (long live to FASA for that).

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 11
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 12:22:28 -0700
You know, I think I advanced a theory like this a few months ago. I like
the idea of select individuals (currently just elves because of a genetic
quirk that makes them elves) being "immortal." It's nothing special
about elves, and not all elves are immortal. Rather, it is something
that could be available to us all.

I have read "Hunter and Prey" several times, but I never did catch on
that the mage there is human, possibly even immortal. I think I really
like this idea...

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 12
From: Jason Middleton <jjay@****.ACS.UNT.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 15:45:23 -0600
On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Erik S Jameson wrote:

> I have read "Hunter and Prey" several times, but I never did catch on
> that the mage there is human, possibly even immortal. I think I really
> like this idea...


Where is this story, "Hunter and Prey?"

I'd like to find it... also, even though the writing bites, the novel
"Never Trust an Elf" has some stuff on the ongoing struggle.


Jason "waiting for SR Tibet to Explode" Middleton

jjay@****.acs.unt.edu
Message no. 13
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 18:10:15 -0700
As some one else said, sort of, "Hunter and Prey" first appeared in one
of those little mini-magazines that FASA puts out on rare occassionas to
hype their upcoming products. Free, and they are rare.

But that doesn't do you that much good, now does it? It can currently be
found on Paolo's beautiful WWW page. Top notch, with damn near
everything SR related ever published on the Net. Some cool pics too.

Erik, a.k.a. the Grumpy Whistler
Message no. 14
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:07:44 +0930
>
> You know, I think I advanced a theory like this a few months ago. I like
> the idea of select individuals (currently just elves because of a genetic
> quirk that makes them elves) being "immortal." It's nothing special
> about elves, and not all elves are immortal. Rather, it is something
> that could be available to us all.
>
> I have read "Hunter and Prey" several times, but I never did catch on
> that the mage there is human, possibly even immortal. I think I really
> like this idea...
>
I'm not a hundred percent sure he's human, it's just that the description
of his shape shift only talked about cosmetic details, so I assume he's
human.

Immortal isn't necessary either, but for a Space Mage (TM), I think I'd
prefer immortality...

As for the genetic basis for immortality: around the end of puberty, two
timers go off. One says: hey, stop GROWING!. The other says: hey, start
DYING!. If the second timer doesn't go off, you won't age. Oh, you might
get wrinkles in your face (not sure), but you won't get older than about
mid 20's biologically. You'll still die before you hit your second century,
though, due to brain death.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:12:02 +0930
>
> Who said he was a human mage. Didn't it say something like he was
> summoned when Knight thought there was going to be trouble. He could be
> some sort of spirit or something. Just a thought.
>

Well, the mage (constantly referred to as "the man") says he was "born of
this Earth, but that's not where I've been lately."

Second, he says Damian Knight brought him down to help out. Not summoned,
but brought him down. From where? The Daedalus?

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:14:23 +0100
>If you read HB a little closer you will see that it says that some Elves
>are immortal and the Jane inherited the factor from her father. It is
>probablely safe to assume all the major elvish rulers are immortal (at
>least in the Tirs). But on greater scale, most aren't. If runners are
>thinking about, would it really matter. How many of you live that long
>anyways, and after a while don't you want to get out of the biz, especial
>when you know how long you will be living and how dangerous your life
>is.

If they do live long enough to survive the shadows, elves'll live for, what,
300 years at least? (Going from Earthdawn, that is.) For humans, that _is_
practically immortal.
Hey, this brings me to another thought... all that wiz cyberware many people
have implanted. Imagine your 80-year-old grandmother moving around at the
speed of light :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"What do you call not believing in what you did see?" "Politics?"
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 17
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 21:08:53 +0930
>
> >If you read HB a little closer you will see that it says that some Elves
> >are immortal and the Jane inherited the factor from her father. It is
> >probablely safe to assume all the major elvish rulers are immortal (at
> >least in the Tirs). But on greater scale, most aren't. If runners are
> >thinking about, would it really matter. How many of you live that long
> >anyways, and after a while don't you want to get out of the biz, especial
> >when you know how long you will be living and how dangerous your life
> >is.
>
> If they do live long enough to survive the shadows, elves'll live for, what,
> 300 years at least? (Going from Earthdawn, that is.) For humans, that _is_
> practically immortal.

According to Tir Tairngire, most elves can be expected to live about 400
years.

> Hey, this brings me to another thought... all that wiz cyberware many people
> have implanted. Imagine your 80-year-old grandmother moving around at the
> speed of light :)

"You have to MOVE!! Awww, that's like a baby's toy!"

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 18
From: Gregory Reade <readeg@***.GOV>
Subject: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:34:28 EST
Author: bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU at unix-mail
Date: 01/26/95 04:07 Pm
> the idea of select individuals (currently just elves because of a
> genetic quirk that makes them elves) being "immortal." It's
> nothing special about elves, and not all elves are immortal.
> Rather, it is something > that could be available to us all

Well I mentioned I had found some "official" material on this in one
of the Shadowrun novels- "Never Trust an Elf" by Robert Charrette.
While not one of my favorites, I presume the following info was
blessed by those who bless at FASA.

In the book questions arise as to certain indivisuals, mostly Elves
who never seem to age and always look young. These include Dodger the
decker, Laverty (the representative to Seattle from Tir's council of
Princes), an Australian elf known as Urdli, and finally Ehran the
Scribe. Dodger and Laverty finally admit to being born BEFORE the
Awakening, in what they describe as "Spikes" of magic. These are
different the Cycles of magic Ehran normally talks about.

Spikes were an occasional and short lived burst of magical energy
which permitted certain creatures/metahumans to be born. They were
especially pronounced near special areas such as Stonehenge, Aachen,
Australia, and of course the NW U.S. (the Tir). Occult phenomena also
occured but was normally dismissed as superstition or too much hooch
for the locals!

Dodger admits to being at least 50 years old (he remembers the Sears
Tower that was destroyed early on?) while Laverty is older and Urdli
older still. Dodger thinks of it as something not necessarily like
immortality but definitely closer to eternal youth. Perhaps they'll
say more in a later story.

The idea is open ended as the Elves don't like to talk about it much,
but they allude to objects and other beings that have been around
because of these spikes. I suppose this is why some creatures such as
Lowfyr or maybe Harlequin have been around for quite some time?

Thanks for your time,

Gregory
Message no. 19
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:22:11 -0600
On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >
> > Who said he was a human mage. Didn't it say something like he was
> > summoned when Knight thought there was going to be trouble. He could be
> > some sort of spirit or something. Just a thought.
> >
>
> Well, the mage (constantly referred to as "the man") says he was "born
of
> this Earth, but that's not where I've been lately."

A nature spirit would consider itself as born from this earth, and if it
was a free spirit it might not be in its home all the time.

>
> Second, he says Damian Knight brought him down to help out. Not summoned,
> but brought him down. From where? The Daedalus?

The higher planes. The nether worlds. The place where Invae come from.

-Andrew
Message no. 20
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:36:22 +0930
>
> On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Who said he was a human mage. Didn't it say something like he was
> > > summoned when Knight thought there was going to be trouble. He could be
> > > some sort of spirit or something. Just a thought.
> > >
> >
> > Well, the mage (constantly referred to as "the man") says he was
"born of
> > this Earth, but that's not where I've been lately."
>
> A nature spirit would consider itself as born from this earth, and if it
> was a free spirit it might not be in its home all the time.

But the insect spirit ALSO refers to "the man" as "mortal", etc.

> > Second, he says Damian Knight brought him down to help out. Not summoned,
> > but brought him down. From where? The Daedalus?
>
> The higher planes. The nether worlds. The place where Invae come from.

Get this quote then:

INSECT: "Many of your kind wander the greater planes, I feast on them
often."

UNKNOWN MAGE: "Wrong realm. Knight supspected something would try to kill
him, so the corporation brought me down to protect him. Magic is so much
easier here."

And later...

INSECT: "Magic is easy for me everywhere. There is nowhere I am weak."

UNKNOWN MAGE: "Nowhere on the Earth, perhaps, but what of above it?"

He later goes on to talking about shaping "power among the stars".
Gentlemen, I think what we have here is a Space Mage (TM).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 21
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 21:17:33 -0700
>get wrinkles in your face (not sure), but you won't get older than about
>mid 20's biologically. You'll still die before you hit your second century,
>though, due to brain death.

not nessecarily - From what I have read in the past month or so, it is a fallacy
that people loose many brain cells as they grow older. The brain can heal
itself, and with the help of certain injected chemicals the medical community is
looking at cures for alztimers and such.

Man - I wish I could remember more on this topic - It was in the local
tucson paper in a three day article from the Chicago Tribune on memory and the
medical community.


Nightfox
Message no. 22
From: Jason Middleton <jjay@****.ACS.UNT.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 23:37:01 -0600
> INSECT: "Many of your kind wander the greater planes, I feast on them
> often."
>
> UNKNOWN MAGE: "Wrong realm. Knight supspected something would try to kill
> him, so the corporation brought me down to protect him. Magic is so much
> easier here."
>
> And later...
>
> INSECT: "Magic is easy for me everywhere. There is nowhere I am weak."
>
> UNKNOWN MAGE: "Nowhere on the Earth, perhaps, but what of above it?"
>
> He later goes on to talking about shaping "power among the stars".
> Gentlemen, I think what we have here is a Space Mage (TM).


when you say Space Mage, do you mean like interstellar type, or just a
mage that can do magic outside the biosphere?

I prefer the latter, the DLoH once made a comment that magic was not
impossible on the orbitals, but very hard, if someone that could do magic
up there came to good old Terra Firma, he would positively kick butt!

This may have just been a good preview for the Orbital Sourcebook, which
may have been abandoned, or something...



Jason "waiting for SR Tibet to explode" Middleton
jjay@****.acs.unt.edu
Message no. 23
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 23:57:26 -0600
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

>
> But the insect spirit ALSO refers to "the man" as "mortal", etc.
>
> Get this quote then:
>
> INSECT: "Many of your kind wander the greater planes, I feast on them
> often."
>
> UNKNOWN MAGE: "Wrong realm. Knight supspected something would try to kill
> him, so the corporation brought me down to protect him. Magic is so much
> easier here."
>

This is before the insect knew what he was. If the "man" is inside a
ward you wouldn't know exactly what itwas.

> And later...
>
> INSECT: "Magic is easy for me everywhere. There is nowhere I am weak."
>
> UNKNOWN MAGE: "Nowhere on the Earth, perhaps, but what of above it?"
>
> He later goes on to talking about shaping "power among the stars".
> Gentlemen, I think what we have here is a Space Mage (TM).

Don't assume that above and stars mean space. It could all be symbolic
of higher planes. What is a space mage anyways?

Another thing, if he is a mage, why would he have someone else put a ward
around him?

-Andrew
Message no. 24
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 17:13:11 +0930
> > He later goes on to talking about shaping "power among the stars".
> > Gentlemen, I think what we have here is a Space Mage (TM).
>
> when you say Space Mage, do you mean like interstellar type, or just a
> mage that can do magic outside the biosphere?
>
I mean a mage who has learnt (somehow) how to do magic outside Earth's
biosphere and not go mad.

> I prefer the latter, the DLoH once made a comment that magic was not
> impossible on the orbitals, but very hard, if someone that could do magic
> up there came to good old Terra Firma, he would positively kick butt!
>
> This may have just been a good preview for the Orbital Sourcebook, which
> may have been abandoned, or something...

I don't know, I just want... *drool*

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 25
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 11:21:55 +0100
> UNKNOWN MAGE: "Nowhere on the Earth, perhaps, but what of above it?"
> He later goes on to talking about shaping "power among the stars".
> Gentlemen, I think what we have here is a Space Mage (TM).

I agree, that pun about the daedalus might have been right after all...


--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 26
From: Dodger <uns016@*****.LANCS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 20:08:45 +0000
> In the book questions arise as to certain indivisuals, mostly Elves
> who never seem to age and always look young. These include Dodger the
> decker, Laverty (the representative to Seattle from Tir's council of
> Princes), an Australian elf known as Urdli, and finally Ehran the
> Scribe. Dodger and Laverty finally admit to being born BEFORE the
> Awakening, in what they describe as "Spikes" of magic. These are
> different the Cycles of magic Ehran normally talks about.

From what I could tell, reading NTaElf, Ehran's cycles are extremely
long term - over thousands of years, but that, in the non-magic terms
of those cycles, there were recurring spikes of magic, the results of
which were Laverty, Dodger and other spike babies.

> Dodger admits to being at least 50 years old (he remembers the Sears
> Tower that was destroyed early on?) while Laverty is older and Urdli
> older still. Dodger thinks of it as something not necessarily like
> immortality but definitely closer to eternal youth. Perhaps they'll
> say more in a later story.

I thought that Dodger admitted to remembering when the Empire State
Building fell - presumably, that would have been in the New York 'quake
of August, 2005. Therefore, I have always presumed that he was born in
the late 1990's, and would, therefore, have been somewhere between seven
and ten years old when the 'quake struck NYC.

> The idea is open ended as the Elves don't like to talk about it much,
> but they allude to objects and other beings that have been around
> because of these spikes. I suppose this is why some creatures such as
> Lowfyr or maybe Harlequin have been around for quite some time?

I'd like to know how long Urdli has been around. The hints given in the
books are that he is truly ancient. It'd be interesting to find out what
other Awakened creatures were the result of Spikes, as well...

/> Dodger
/<
O[\\\\\\(O):::<======================================-
\<
\> John Gavigan - uns016 @ cent1.lancs.ac.uk

There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about
who's got the most bullets. It's about who controls the information.
What we see and hear, how we work, what we think.
It's all about the information.

-----===*===-----
Message no. 27
From: Gregory Reade <readeg@***.GOV>
Subject: Re[2]: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:24:32 EST
>Author: uns016@*****.LANCS.AC.UK at unix-mail

>I thought that Dodger admitted to remembering when the Empire State
>Building fell - presumably, that would have been in the New York 'quake
>of August, 2005. Therefore, I have always presumed that he was born in
>the late 1990's, and would, therefore, have been somewhere between
>seven and ten years old when the 'quake struck

Yah, I misspoke when I mentioned the Sears building... it was New York and the
Empire State building. I think I'm reading too many of the SR novels at one
time! ;)


GRegory
Message no. 28
From: Andrew <wadycki@***.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:45:03 -0600
On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Dodger wrote:

> > In the book questions arise as to certain indivisuals, mostly Elves
> > who never seem to age and always look young. These include Dodger the
> > decker, Laverty (the representative to Seattle from Tir's council of
> > Princes), an Australian elf known as Urdli, and finally Ehran the
> > Scribe. Dodger and Laverty finally admit to being born BEFORE the
> > Awakening, in what they describe as "Spikes" of magic. These are
> > different the Cycles of magic Ehran normally talks about.
>
> From what I could tell, reading NTaElf, Ehran's cycles are extremely
> long term - over thousands of years, but that, in the non-magic terms
> of those cycles, there were recurring spikes of magic, the results of
> which were Laverty, Dodger and other spike babies.
>
Who said Laverty was a spike baby, he could be from the 4th world. In
NTaElf, he said something like "you could say that I was from an older
spike." If he isn't from the 4th world, then who was training spike
babies before he started grabbing them?

-Andrew
Message no. 29
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 14:45:32 +0930
>
> On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Dodger wrote:
>
> > From what I could tell, reading NTaElf, Ehran's cycles are extremely
> > long term - over thousands of years, but that, in the non-magic terms
> > of those cycles, there were recurring spikes of magic, the results of
> > which were Laverty, Dodger and other spike babies.
> >
This has been talked about before. Anyway, the long and short of what was
brought up then is this:

Imagine a sine curve. Nice and smooth right? Now imagine a sin(sin(x))
curve, and then a sin(sin(sin(x))) curve. And so on. It becomes clear how a
more or less smooth curve could easily have spikes (both up and down).

> Who said Laverty was a spike baby, he could be from the 4th world. In
> NTaElf, he said something like "you could say that I was from an older
> spike." If he isn't from the 4th world, then who was training spike
> babies before he started grabbing them?
>
Well... HE says he's a spike baby. :) I kinda doubt it though. IMHO, all
the major players on the Tir Tairngire Council are immortals (the non-elves
don't count. :) )

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 30
From: Gregory Reade <readeg@***.GOV>
Subject: Re[2]: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 09:57:40 EST
>Author: bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU at unix-mail

> Who said Laverty was a spike baby, he could be from the 4th world. In
> NTaElf, he said something like "you could say that I was from an older
> spike." If he isn't from the 4th world, then who was training spike
> babies before he started grabbing them?

And remember there's always those Australians... whatever happened to Urdli?


Gregory
Message no. 31
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 16:07:59 +0100
> And remember there's always those Australians... whatever happened to Urdli?

He dies, the son of Oakforest killed him - remember ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: HB - Elven Immortality - New Stuff
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:23:37 +0100
>And remember there's always those Australians... whatever happened to Urdli?

He got stabbed by Glasgian, I think.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De meeste dieren hebben ook een maandelijkse cyclus, behalve natuurlijk de
weekdieren -Herman Finkers
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

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