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Message no. 1
From: Matthias Kerzel <MKerzel@***.COM>
Subject: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:34:36 EST
Hi

I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately caused
as easy as he can heal another wound. The party has kidnapped a person with a
location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the team's
mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and healed the
person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of magic seemed a twisted
and unrealistic to me. I thing magic has not only to do with synchronising
auras. It has also a lot to do with emotions and will to so something. But in
this case the mage was not willing to heal and to cure he proved his by
chopping of the hand. I applied some target number modifiers to his roll
although the rules don't say so. After the game we had a little discussion but
we didn't get a result. We agreed that emotions are somehow important for
magic (this comes from the Grimoire, I think).

What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have to be
true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing his
mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing spell?

- Matthias Kerzel
Message no. 2
From: frederico augusto de castro furtado <fred@***.UFRJ.BR>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:51:52 -0300
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Matthias Kerzel wrote:

> What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have to be
> true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing his
> mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing spell?

I think that it depends on how the character views the emotion. Most
people associate clam and peace with healing, but I suspect a shadowrunner
magician would get none of those during a run. So, how does he cure a team
mate?
Also, someone who had a tough childhood would probably have a screwed up
emotional state and might have different definitions than the
standard ones for a given emotion. You might argue that such a character
would never be able to access magic, even if he was magically active.
However, I find that an easy answer, and if one of my players wanted to
play a psycho magician, I woudn't forbid it (but then again, I usually am
quite liberal in my campaign :).
In sum, I would allow the healing spell. If the mage had such an
emotional composure that the spell would fail in that situation, he
probably wouldn't have agreed to chopping off the guy's hand in the first
place.
Ilalekah,
Fred Furtado
fred@***.ufrj.br

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars..."
--Oscar Wilde
Message no. 3
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:56:48 -0500
This also sounds similar to the routine where a mage has a number of spells
deliberately learned at higher than the character's magic attribute. They
cast those spells at high force deliberately taking physical damage because
they can then use their Heal or Treat spell to remove the damage. This
way, they do not have to wait for their stun damage to slowly go away. I
have also seen this done with spirits, deliberately summoning one at a high
enough force that the mage takes physical damage rather than mental fatigue.

In my campaign, I have been allowing the players who pull this trick to go
ahead and do it because the game mechanics usually come back to haunt them
eventually (i.e. only being able to magically heal a wound once, taking a
deadly wound, getting very few successes on the healing attempt, taking
mental drain on the healing attempt, etc...). However, it does raise
interesting questions about the character's viewpoint on magic. It could
be a starting point on the road to blood magic, or the mage could just
really like pain... Our shaman who occasionally does this only does it
under circumstances in which the character feels a great sacrifice is
needed to succeed.

-- Blair

At 11:34 AM 2/18/98 EST, you wrote:
>Hi
>
>I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately
caused
>as easy as he can heal another wound. The party has kidnapped a person with a
>location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the
team's
>mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and healed the
>person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of magic seemed a
twisted
>and unrealistic to me. I thing magic has not only to do with synchronising
>auras. It has also a lot to do with emotions and will to so something. But in
>this case the mage was not willing to heal and to cure he proved his by
>chopping of the hand. I applied some target number modifiers to his roll
>although the rules don't say so. After the game we had a little discussion
but
>we didn't get a result. We agreed that emotions are somehow important for
>magic (this comes from the Grimoire, I think).
>
>What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have
to be
>true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing his
>mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing
spell?
>
>- Matthias Kerzel
>
>
------
Blair A. Monroe Phone: (850) 644-8114
Web Systems Administrator / Sr. Web Developer Fax: (850) 644-6253
School of Information Studies E-mail: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
Florida State University
101 Louis Shores Bldg.
Tallahassee, FL. 32306 http://www.fsu.edu/~lis
Message no. 4
From: Tony Rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:17:26 -0600
On 02/18/98 11:34:36 you wrote:
>
>Hi
>
>I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately caused
>as easy as he can heal another wound. The party has kidnapped a person with a
>location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the team's
>mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and healed the
>person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of magic seemed a twisted
>and unrealistic to me. I thing magic has not only to do with synchronising
>auras. It has also a lot to do with emotions and will to so something. But in
>this case the mage was not willing to heal and to cure he proved his by
>chopping of the hand. I applied some target number modifiers to his roll
>although the rules don't say so. After the game we had a little discussion but
>we didn't get a result. We agreed that emotions are somehow important for
>magic (this comes from the Grimoire, I think).
>
>What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have to be
>true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing his
>mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing spell?
>

I think I would have applied some mods to this roll as well; just seems to be some
"bad karma"
about doing something so drastic to a person, even if you intend to fix it.

Reminds me of a Dwarf Street Sam I had in my game for a long time, and he could never seem
to
come up with some APDS ammo for his weapons, was always hunting for it never got the
rolls; you
guessed it, when his number came up, it was with SMG's packing APDS ammo...(grin)

rabiola@**.netcom.com

Argent - Elven Fixer Extrodinaire Juhafa Vadic, Nethermancer
It was hot, the night we burned Chrome... Many speak ill of the path I walk...
Message no. 5
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:14:37 -0500
On Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 11:34:36AM -0500, Matthias Kerzel wrote:
> Hi
>
> I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately caused
> as easy as he can heal another wound. The party has kidnapped a person with a
> location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the team's
> mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and healed the
> person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of magic seemed a twisted
> and unrealistic to me. I thing magic has not only to do with synchronising
> auras. It has also a lot to do with emotions and will to so something. But in
> this case the mage was not willing to heal and to cure he proved his by
> chopping of the hand. I applied some target number modifiers to his roll
> although the rules don't say so. After the game we had a little discussion but
> we didn't get a result. We agreed that emotions are somehow important for
> magic (this comes from the Grimoire, I think).
>
> What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have to be
> true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing his
> mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing spell?
>
According to the rules, it doesn't matter how the wound was caused.
(See aztlan sourcebook, for a bunch of blood magic stuff).
However, from a role-playing standpoint (and a GM), I wouldn't have
let him do it. I mean how many people would logically chop off their
own arm/hand for any reason. (Ok maybe go to a street doc, have yourself
unconcious, and then do it but still...). Hell if it was anything but
his hand I would have made
the mage test for magic loss (that is a deadly/serious wound in my
book). Just my two cents.
Hmm..then again...Yakuza had/have this thing with voluntary maiming,
so I suppose its possible. Anyway...


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Some people are alive, only because its illegal to kill them.
Message no. 6
From: Jeremiah Stevens <jeremiah@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:17:59 -0500
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Blair A. Monroe wrote:

> This also sounds similar to the routine where a mage has a number of spells
> deliberately learned at higher than the character's magic attribute. They
> cast those spells at high force deliberately taking physical damage because
> they can then use their Heal or Treat spell to remove the damage. This
> way, they do not have to wait for their stun damage to slowly go away. I
> have also seen this done with spirits, deliberately summoning one at a high
> enough force that the mage takes physical damage rather than mental fatigue.

There is also the opposite tactic of casting a very low level healing
spell without any intent to really heal the target, but to simply deny
them the chance of having any other healing (magical or otherwise)
performed on them.
Message no. 7
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:21:54 -0500
>What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have to
be
>true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing
his
>mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing
spell?

I think that while extremely prick, this use of the heal spell is completely
valid ... for a MAGE.

Your whole emotions argument IMO is completely correct for shamans.
For them magic IS a lot of emotions, spiritual beliefs, etc.

However, for a mage, magic is simply manipulating a natural force.
No more or less emotional than flicking a light switch on and off.

Personally, I'd look at how this player portrayed his character in the first
place.
If he's cold and heartless enough to simply lop someone's hand off in the
first place, than I doubt that magic contains much emotion either.

However, if he consistently played his PC as needing a lot of ritual and
intense emotion for spell casting, then I'd make him stick to it.

Remember, it's SR, not AD&D.
You don't need any material components, verbal, somantic, or emotional
content to do magic.
For mages, it's all a matter of willpower and formula.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"If you die first, we're splitting up your gear."
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:43:57 -0700
Blair A. Monroe wrote:
/
/ This also sounds similar to the routine where a mage has a number of spells
/ deliberately learned at higher than the character's magic attribute. They

[snip]

/ At 11:34 AM 2/18/98 EST, you wrote:
/ >Hi
/ >
/ >I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately
/ caused

[snip]

Since the flunkies aren't on the job yet...

Blair,

Would you please place your replies *after/below* the post you're
replying to? (As I've done here.) Otherwise it's like listening to
a conversation out of sequence.

Thanks,
-David
--
"By the way, this may look like a slab of liver
but it's an external brain pack."
- Ratbert
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:48:17 -0700
Matthias Kerzel wrote:
/
/ I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately caused
/ as easy as he can heal another wound. The party has kidnapped a person with a
/ location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the team's
/ mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and healed the
/ person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of magic seemed a twisted
/ and unrealistic to me. I thing magic has not only to do with synchronising
/ auras. It has also a lot to do with emotions and will to so something. But in
/ this case the mage was not willing to heal and to cure he proved his by
/ chopping of the hand. I applied some target number modifiers to his roll
/ although the rules don't say so. After the game we had a little discussion but
/ we didn't get a result. We agreed that emotions are somehow important for
/ magic (this comes from the Grimoire, I think).
/
/ What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have to be
/ true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing his
/ mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing spell?

I'd let him do it. It's not something I would ever do, but I'm not the
player and it isn't my character.

As far as rule restrictions, there aren't any for this AFAIK.

Now, if the character was a Snake shaman, that would be a different
story.

On a side note, I would have the mage suffer the consequences. The
guy whose hand he chopped off will probably hold a grudge. How will
his teammates react? If word of this gets out how will any future
NPC react?

Have fun :)

-David
--
"By the way, this may look like a slab of liver
but it's an external brain pack."
- Ratbert
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 10
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:59:17 -0500
At 01:14 PM 2/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, Feb 18, 1998 at 11:34:36AM -0500, Matthias Kerzel wrote:
>> I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately
caused
>> as easy as he can heal another wound.

Well, consider this: human beings change constantly. Motivations vary from
moment to moment. Thus, what seems reasonable at one moment may not at the
next. Having shot someone, finding out that he's not really a traitor, you
now want to heal him? More difficult? Not IMO.

>>The party has kidnapped a person with a
>> location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the
team's
>> mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and healed the
>> person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of magic seemed a
twisted
>> and unrealistic to me.

Unnecessarily cruel is a roleplaying consideration, not something involving
the magic rules. And yes, that's pretty cruel, but there are things like
that done in the real world. Criminals are not nice people.

>>I thing magic has not only to do with synchronising
>> auras. It has also a lot to do with emotions and will to so something.
But in
>> this case the mage was not willing to heal and to cure he proved his by
>> chopping of the hand.

He was willing to heal and cure after he had what he wanted (that location
signal). Ruthless, yes, but not contrary to the use of the spell. The
spell heals physical damage, that is its only intention. He wanted that
guy to live, he just needed the signal badly enough to cut the guy's hand
off to get it, knowing that he could heal it after he did. He was, in
fact, counting on healing. :)

I applied some target number modifiers to his roll
>> although the rules don't say so. After the game we had a little
discussion but
>> we didn't get a result. We agreed that emotions are somehow important for
>> magic (this comes from the Grimoire, I think).

I think you are correct, near the section of the "peephole" example I think.

>> What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have
to be
>> true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing
his
>> mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing
spell?

>According to the rules, it doesn't matter how the wound was caused.
>(See aztlan sourcebook, for a bunch of blood magic stuff).
>However, from a role-playing standpoint (and a GM), I wouldn't have
>let him do it. I mean how many people would logically chop off their
>own arm/hand for any reason.

But it wasn't his own hand, it was someone else's. And he knew, as a
magician, that he could heal the damage. Sure it's cruel, but so is
shooting someone and not making sure they'll dies quickly of their wounds,
so is poisoning someone, etc. Just think of the fact that Doom(TM) is
included in the SR universe... Nasty, nasty stuff with no way to recover
from it.

>Hmm..then again...Yakuza had/have this thing with voluntary maiming,
>so I suppose its possible. Anyway...

Now, I will say that if you don't want you rplayers doing things like that,
one should make it clear that obvious torture and the like are not to be
done. No one should have to deal with things like that in a RPG if they
don't want to. The rules don't have to come into it, if it's disgusting or
repellent, you don't need a target number modifier, explain to the player
that it's verboten. Enough said.

losthalo
Message no. 11
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:25:36 PST
>location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the
team's mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and
healed the person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of
>magic seemed a twisted and unrealistic to me.

You seem awfully concerned about the fealings of an NPC you call "it".
Maybe that had something to do with the players attitude...

Thats not an objection to this spell use, though- read to the bottom for
that....

How you deal with the issue will influence the players action. I'm sure
you had blood everywhere, and required messures to deal with that, or
its consequence.

>What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they
have to be true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by >concentrating
or focusing his mind on that emotion)?

IMO, he can fake it to the extent needed to cast the spell- you can just
as easily kill a good friend by catching them in the area of a combat
spell. Magic has been described as "the abilty to go completely,
controlably, insane".

I have no problem with the emotional intent, in this case- much of the
art of torture is the medical knowledge needed to keep the victim alive
and concious through his pain. I wouldn't give the guy any extra karma
for doing a good deed there, though!

>And what do you think of this use of the healing spell?

If he had a shape change type spell, that would heve been a MUCH better
choice, unless the tracker was also contact sensitive and somehow
dangerous, in which case he maybe "did the guy a favor".

Its a bad spell to choose if anything else will work, as it won't grow
back severed hands and such. Otherwise, body tests for limb loss and
costs for organ transplants are pretty pointless!

Heal and treat cure wounds, but do not reverse the effects of surgery,
no matter how crude. What the mage did was impromtu deadly level
amputation surgery (maybe moderate or serious if he used actual surgical
instruments), not just a simple wound. Heal and treat accelerate and
improve NORMAL recovery. That hand WASN'T going to growback on its own.

Now, if they had it removed and re-attached by somebody with biotech
skill in a decent medical setting, before casting the spell, thats
literally a different story. Healing magic would speed up normal
recovery there, too.


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:01:33 +0100
Matthias Kerzel said on 11:34/18 Feb 98...

> I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately
> caused as easy as he can heal another wound. The party has kidnapped a
> person with a location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to
> remove. So the team's mage just chopped of the hand, removed the
> locations signal and healed the person. This was not only unnecessary
> cruel this use of magic seemed a twisted and unrealistic to me.

I don't see a problem with it myself, except any moral and ethical
problems the mage himself wants to make out of it.

What I would see happening for shamans is that the shaman's totem may look
a bit unfavorably on the character, especially if he or she does this sort
of thing more than once. Other people may also decide they don't want to
work with this runner, if word gets out.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
That's just fine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:42:21 -0500
>snip: cut off hand, then heal.

Also, remember that Heal is not Regenerate. In my game (your millage
may vary), what you would have ended up with is a victim with a nicely
healed stump. No bleeding, no pain (so no condition TN modifiers) but
no hand.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 14
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:01:11 EST
In a message dated 98-02-18 11:36:46 EST, MKerzel@***.COM writes:

> I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately
> caused
> as easy as he can heal another wound. The party has kidnapped a person with
> a
> location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the
team'
> s
> mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and healed the
> person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of magic seemed a
> twisted
> and unrealistic to me. I thing magic has not only to do with synchronising
> auras. It has also a lot to do with emotions and will to so something. But
> in
> this case the mage was not willing to heal and to cure he proved his by
> chopping of the hand. I applied some target number modifiers to his roll
> although the rules don't say so. After the game we had a little discussion
> but
> we didn't get a result. We agreed that emotions are somehow important for
> magic (this comes from the Grimoire, I think).

I agree that emotions are important part of "the magical mentality", but they
are not by any means the sum total of it. If the guy's a hermetic, they may
be a very abstract part of it in fact.

I do have a question on the situation. Did the hand get healed to such an
extent that the severed part was either rejoined or "regrew" in some fashion.
If so, I don't recall for certain, but that qualifies as "Regeneration" in the
book, and is not so readily performed. Sure, with surgery, skill and the
right equipment, it could be reattached, and healing magic utilized to reduce
the recovery/rehab time, but NOT true regeneration.

> What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have to
> be
> true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing
his
> mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing
> spell?
>
> - Matthias Kerzel

See Above..
-K
Message no. 15
From: James Lindsay <jlindsay@******.CA>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 03:01:26 GMT
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:42:21 -0500, Mike Elkins wrote:

> >snip: cut off hand, then heal.
>
> Also, remember that Heal is not Regenerate. In my game (your millage
> may vary), what you would have ended up with is a victim with a nicely
> healed stump. No bleeding, no pain (so no condition TN modifiers) but
> no hand.

Agreed. Since Shadowrun's combat system is vague enough not to use hit
locations, the Heal and Treat spells are equally vague. Therefore, a
*regeneration* spell would be necessary to "regrow" a lost extremity.

If the lopped off hand (or whatever) were held in place while the Heal or
Treat spell were being cast, I'd allow it-- but with a very big "IF".
Technically, the victim's wrist has taken the equivalent of a Deadly
injury, and should be treated as such under such circumstances. Think
about it-- the pain and shock of having one's hand cut off should be easily
worth a +3 penalty (not to mention the outright inability to use that hand
for any task, period), making the wound at least a Serious.



James W. Lindsay Vancouver, British Columbia
"http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero";
ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Mano au mano, the "Professor"
would kick MacGyver's ass.
Message no. 16
From: Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 05:05:24 -0005
On 18 Feb 98 at 22:01, Gurth wrote:

> Matthias Kerzel said on 11:34/18 Feb 98...
>
>
> What I would see happening for shamans is that the shaman's totem may
> look a bit unfavorably on the character, especially if he or she does
> this sort of thing more than once. Other people may also decide they
> don't want to work with this runner, if word gets out.

That's a bit of a moral judgement though for a totem to make. I mean
would Shark care? Maybe Shark would be upset for having healed the guy
afterwards. Raccoons will gnaw their own leg off to get out of a trap, so
will a coyote, so would Raccoon or Coyote see it as bad? In short, does
an animal totem have the same kind of moral judgement a human does...
would they care?
--
@>->,-`---
Ashelock
o=<======-

GM's Theme: "I am the eye in the sky, looking at you, I can see your lies.
I am the maker of rules, dealing in fools, I can cheat you blind."
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:46:17 +0100
Mike Elkins said on 17:42/18 Feb 98...

> Also, remember that Heal is not Regenerate. In my game (your millage
> may vary), what you would have ended up with is a victim with a nicely
> healed stump. No bleeding, no pain (so no condition TN modifiers) but
> no hand.

If the hand had been pressed against the rest of the arm and then Heal had
been cast, I'd allowed the hand to grow back onto the arm again. Without
the hand present, though, in my game things would have been the same as in
Mike's.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
That's just fine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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Message no. 18
From: Matthias Kerzel <MKerzel@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:05:24 EST
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:01:11 EST J. Keith Henry wrote:
>I do have a question on the situation. Did the hand get healed to such an
>extent that the severed part was either rejoined or "regrew" in some
fashion.
>If so, I don't recall for certain, but that qualifies as "Regeneration" in
the
>book, and is not so readily performed. Sure, with surgery, skill and the
>right equipment, it could be reattached, and healing magic utilized to reduce
>the recovery/rehab time, but NOT true regeneration.

The hand didn't grow back, and the runners weren't smart enough to reattach
the old one. But the guy would have died from blood-loss if the wound had not
been threaten. I think you can imagine, why I call this cruel.

And on Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:59:17 -0500 losthalo wrote:
>Unnecessarily cruel is a roleplaying consideration, not something involving
>the magic rules. And yes, that's pretty cruel, but there are things like
>that done in the real world. Criminals are not nice people.

I agree with that statement. I don't think Shadowrun is a nice little game
where nobody gets hurt but even the rudest runner should have his codex. And
we agreed that although the PCs are not the good guys we won't do anything
really perverted (and maiming a defenceless person is perverted from my point
of view). But ok, maybe this action caught me so much off guard that I might
have mixed up
rules and my personal feelings. I really didn't think of this option when I
tossed this problem at the players and the mage who did this was a quite
normal person not a lunatic psycho.

- Matthias
Message no. 19
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:42:17 +0000
On 19 Feb 98, Matthias Kerzel disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:
[...]
> I agree with that statement. I don't think Shadowrun is a nice
> little game where nobody gets hurt but even the rudest runner should
> have his codex. And we agreed that although the PCs are not the good
> guys we won't do anything really perverted (and maiming a
> defenceless person is perverted from my point of view). But ok,

Ehhh... This is perverted? You should see my Amber character then...
Besides, this was rather really nice of them, sice they healed him
magically instead of just putting a tourniquet on his hand.

(And as for mages and cruelty - here's a short story for you:
We've caught some stupid runner that was tinkering with the phone
lines leading to one of the team member's appartment. So, we shot him
with a narcoject while he wasn't looking - he never saw us. Now,
since I didn't want him to be able to identify us, I cast Mask on all
three of us while we were interrogating him. And we've agreed to
call each other Joe, Jack and Jane. Well, when we're finished, one of
the chars called mine char by his real name. My reaction?
"Look what you did, you idiot! Now we'll have to shoot him!"
All while he was listening.
And yes, we shot him.
I really felt bad for him... for a minute. ;P)

[...]


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Logic: 1+1= 11, 2+2= 22, 3+3=6
Message no. 20
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:43:26 +0000
On 19 Feb 98, Matthias Kerzel disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:
[...]
> I agree with that statement. I don't think Shadowrun is a nice
> little game where nobody gets hurt but even the rudest runner should
> have his codex. And we agreed that although the PCs are not the good
> guys we won't do anything really perverted (and maiming a
> defenceless person is perverted from my point of view). But ok,

Ehhh... This is perverted? You should see my Amber character then...
Besides, this was rather really nice of them, sice they healed him
magically instead of just putting a tourniquet on his hand.

(And as for mages and cruelty - here's a short story for you:
We've caught some stupid runner that was tinkering with the phone
lines leading to one of the team member's appartment. So, we shot him
with a narcoject while he wasn't looking - he never saw us. Now,
since I didn't want him to be able to identify us, I cast Mask on all
three of us while we were interrogating him. And we've agreed to
call each other Joe, Jack and Jane. Well, when we're finished, one of
the chars called mine char by his real name. My reaction?
"Look what you did, you idiot! Now we'll have to shoot him!"
All while he was listening.
And yes, we shot him.
I really felt bad for him... for a minute. ;P)

[...]


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
My dentist is painless - he doesn't feel a thing.
Message no. 21
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:45:02 +0000
On 19 Feb 98, Matthias Kerzel disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:
[...]
> I agree with that statement. I don't think Shadowrun is a nice
> little game where nobody gets hurt but even the rudest runner should
> have his codex. And we agreed that although the PCs are not the good
> guys we won't do anything really perverted (and maiming a
> defenceless person is perverted from my point of view). But ok,

Ehhh... This is perverted? You should see my Amber character then...
Besides, this was rather really nice of them, sice they healed him
magically instead of just putting a tourniquet on his hand.

(And as for mages and cruelty - here's a short story for you:
We've caught some stupid runner that was tinkering with the phone
lines leading to one of the team member's appartment. So, we shot him
with a narcoject while he wasn't looking - he never saw us. Now,
since I didn't want him to be able to identify us, I cast Mask on all
three of us while we were interrogating him. And we've agreed to
call each other Joe, Jack and Jane. Well, when we're finished, one of
the chars called mine char by his real name. My reaction?
"Look what you did, you idiot! Now we'll have to shoot him!"
All while he was listening.
And yes, we shot him.
I really felt bad for him... for a minute. ;P)

[...]


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Take my advice, I don't use it anyway.
Message no. 22
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:46:46 +0000
On 19 Feb 98, Matthias Kerzel disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
by writing:
[...]
> I agree with that statement. I don't think Shadowrun is a nice
> little game where nobody gets hurt but even the rudest runner should
> have his codex. And we agreed that although the PCs are not the good
> guys we won't do anything really perverted (and maiming a
> defenceless person is perverted from my point of view). But ok,

Ehhh... This is perverted? You should see my Amber character then...
Besides, this was rather really nice of them, sice they healed him
magically instead of just putting a tourniquet on his hand.

(And as for mages and cruelty - here's a short story for you:
We've caught some stupid runner that was tinkering with the phone
lines leading to one of the team member's appartment. So, we shot him
with a narcoject while he wasn't looking - he never saw us. Now,
since I didn't want him to be able to identify us, I cast Mask on all
three of us while we were interrogating him. And we've agreed to
call each other Joe, Jack and Jane. Well, when we're finished, one of
the chars called mine char by his real name. My reaction?
"Look what you did, you idiot! Now we'll have to shoot him!"
All while he was listening.
And yes, we shot him.
I really felt bad for him... for a minute. ;P)

[...]


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
The price of being an Amberite is that sometimes you can't even trust yourself. -
Corwin
Message no. 23
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:44:51 +0100
Ashlocke said on 5:05/19 Feb 98...

> That's a bit of a moral judgement though for a totem to make. I mean
> would Shark care? Maybe Shark would be upset for having healed the guy
> afterwards. Raccoons will gnaw their own leg off to get out of a trap, so
> will a coyote, so would Raccoon or Coyote see it as bad? In short, does
> an animal totem have the same kind of moral judgement a human does...
> would they care?

That's open to debate, and it would depend quite a lot on how you see
totems. I personally have never really understood totems much (probably
because I tend to have an "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude to life
in general), and so they don't play that big a role in my campaign.

However, totems that are on the "good" side (as far as there is one in SR,
of course) should IMHO look unfavorably on a character who intentionally
chops off someone's hand unless it's absolutely necessary.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
That's just fine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 24
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:07:30 PST
Is there somereason I got 5 copies of this? I though there was a list
fiter to stop that from happening!
Anyhow, reply below:


>We've caught some stupid runner that was tinkering with the phone
>lines leading to one of the team member's appartment.
>He never saw us.
>I cast Mask on all three of us while we were interrogating him. >Well,
when we're finished, one of
>the chars called mine char by his real name. My reaction?
>"Look what you did, you idiot! Now we'll have to shoot him!"
>All while he was listening.
>And yes, we shot him.
>I really felt bad for him... for a minute. ;P)

That seems pretty pointless. If he was taping your phones, those hiring
him probably knew such basic information. You din't decrease exposure,
but you commited murder. But I don't know the whole story.
I've never gotten to uptight about keeping a characters name secret- I
figure changing I'd's every few months is part of the job. We don't
even tell proffesinal affilites real names- how tracable is a streat
name? Fairly, with detective work, but you need a handle to get work.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 25
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:55:31 +0000
On 19 Feb 98, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> Is there somereason I got 5 copies of this? I though there was a
> list fiter to stop that from happening! Anyhow, reply below:

Yeah. I've sent it five times. <sheepish grin>

<shameless plug>

I'd like to recommand to you, average citizen, the new Shadowrn
Enforcer division. They're fast, effective and almost never take
bribes.

</shameless plug>

;P

[...]
> >And yes, we shot him.
> >I really felt bad for him... for a minute. ;P)
>
> That seems pretty pointless. If he was taping your phones, those
> hiring him probably knew such basic information. You din't decrease
> exposure, but you commited murder. But I don't know the whole
> story. I've never gotten to uptight about keeping a characters name
> secret- I figure changing I'd's every few months is part of the job.
> We don't even tell proffesinal affilites real names- how tracable
> is a streat name? Fairly, with detective work, but you need a
> handle to get work.

Of course this was pointless and totally nonsensical. but it was in
our early Shadowrunning days, when the runs looked more like Quentin
Tarantino movies. ;-/ (And I also had a Order of Cu-Chullain Physad
as a PC. Oh well.)

Luckily, it's a bit more sane now.


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Cisterns of the world unite - you have nothing to lose but your chains.
Message no. 26
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:55:22 +0000
And verily, did Leszek Karlik, aka Mike hastily scribble thusly...
|
|On 19 Feb 98, Matthias Kerzel disseminated foul capitalist propaganda
|by writing:
|[...]
|> I agree with that statement. I don't think Shadowrun is a nice

<snip>

4 repetitions...
I think someone hit send 3 too many times...

--
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| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
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|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
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Message no. 27
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:12:34 PST
>> Is there somereason I got 5 copies of this? I though there was a
>> list fiter to stop that from happening! Anyhow, reply below:
>
>Yeah. I've sent it five times. <sheepish grin>

Yeah, but when I send a messge more than once, the list detects it, and
bounces it, with a messge that an identical messge has been sent.

I'd hope that feature hasn't goon loopy.

You didn't CHANGE it slightly each time, did you?!?

>Of course this was pointless and totally nonsensical. but it was in
>our early Shadowrunning days, when the runs looked more like Quentin
>Tarantino movies. ;-/

AH. Well. How are those Big Cahuna burgers, anyhow?

Pointless killing are cool, if handled with flair, gore, and panic. :P

I've actually been very tempted to have my character "walk the earth" at
several points.

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Message no. 28
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Healing a wound the mage deliberately caused?
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:40:06 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthias Kerzel <MKerzel@***.COM>

>I recently had an discussion if a mage can heal a wound he deliberately
caused
>as easy as he can heal another wound. The party has kidnapped a person
with a
>location signal around it's wrist which was very hard to remove. So the
team's
>mage just chopped of the hand, removed the locations signal and healed the
>person. This was not only unnecessary cruel this use of magic seemed a
twisted
>and unrealistic to me. I thing magic has not only to do with synchronising
>auras. It has also a lot to do with emotions and will to so something. But
in
>this case the mage was not willing to heal and to cure he proved his by
>chopping of the hand. I applied some target number modifiers to his roll
>although the rules don't say so. After the game we had a little discussion
but
>we didn't get a result. We agreed that emotions are somehow important for
>magic (this comes from the Grimoire, I think).

Emotion only plays an important part if the mage beleives that it should.
Cold emotionless magicians can and do exist in Shadowrun. As for the
twisted part, I would say that, yes, what he did was twisted, but that
doesn't mean it wouldn't work. Have a look at toxics. So I would say that
what he did was perfectly valid, providing it was within the (admittedly
very cruel) personality of the mage. BUT, I also say that the heal and
treat spells will only do something that is conceivablly possible for the
target's body to do by itself. It's just that the spell works faster.
There is no re-attaching limbs, because if someone had there hand cut off
and survived, they end up with a stump. Same thing with magic, just a nice
healed stump.

>What do you think, how important are emotions for magic and do they have
to be
>true or can a mage simply fake them (may be by concentrating or focusing
his
>mind on that emotion)? And what do you think of this use of the healing
spell?

As I said, I believe that emotion is important only if the mage/shaman
believes that it is. If they require a certain emotional intent or level,
then there would be no cheating it. They would need the magic for it to
work, though it would be possible for them to deliberately goad themselves
into the right frame of mind. All of this though is purely role-playing.
I don't think emotional levels or anything should give TN modifiers or
anything like that.

NightRain.

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