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Message no. 1
From: brett@***.orst.edu (Brett Barksdale)
Subject: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 13:48:48 PDT
Is there anyone else out there who is somewhat muddled when
it comes to vehicle combat/weapons in SRII and is desparately
looking forward to the Rigger Black Book II? :-)

I'm trying to get a handle on how some of the higher-end vehicular
armor/weapons combo's go. (Not that I plan on really using any of
it - but I'm one of those GMs that's disturbed when I see, or think
I see, something goofy in the balance of the game system). I realize
that SR II is *not* a vehicle combat game (and they admit as much),
but sooner or later you're going to end up with a car chase and
vehicle weapons being fired etc.

As far as I've found, the heaviest armored thing in the sourcebooks
is a fully-armored GMC Banshee with Body 6/Armor 18. Is there a
single weapon in the game that *doesn't* get reduced to 2's for
the Banshee's resistance roll? Even the standard AP anti-aircraft
missiles (13D or 16D), still get reduced to 2's with half-armor(9)
and body (6) reducing the power of attacks by 15. (Same thing for
lasers using half-impact instead of half-ballistic). The banshee,
without any control pool tossed it, gets to roll body (6) plus
half-armor(9) for 15 total dice to resist. With a target number of
2's, it will get 12.5 successes on average. Eight of those reduce
the 'D' down to nothing leaving 4.5 success. So, on average, one
has to score 5 successes against a Banshee just to scratch it. And
this doesn't count the Control Pool. (!) And God help anyone facing
this banshee if a PC with an actual Karma pool gets ahold of one of
these babies... :-) (Don't worry - my players don't have a banshee - nor
are they likely to, without a buttload of planning and ingenuity. But I hate
to just go 'no' on things. If they are willing to face what I think
is the difficulty involved with "getting in the driver's seat" and
prevail, then party on...)

And the thing that's got me wondering is that the GMC Banshee is listed
as a *LIGHT* re-con type of LAV. Hey! If that is *light*, I'd hate
to see *heavy*. Even the most armored tank in Fields of Fire "only"
has an armor of 15. (I think...)

Is the light recon Banshee supposed to be this tough vs. all of the
stuff in the game?

Is is possible to place AP rounds in the big-ass (20D) rotary
autocannon? How does the damage scale up in the normal SR II rules with
burst-fire/full-auto on those monster guns? Does anyone have any
good house rules on it? Am I spending too much time wondering about
random things...? :-)

- Brett

P.S. Oh yeah, one more question...

Does control pool work the same way as combat pool in the sense that -
if you get more success on your control pool in a body resistance
test for your vehicle than the attacker got successes, do you
dodge the entire damage? I wouldn't *think* so, but does it say
that anywhere in the SRII sourcebooks one way or another?

P.P.S. Regarding all of the munchkinism stuff going around... hey!
It's a *game*. If everyone is having fun playing in the game, then
it doesn't matter whether it's 'munchkinous' or not. Fun is the only
thing that matters.
Message no. 2
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:40:48 +0200
At 22:48 Uhr 13.05.96, Brett Barksdale wrote:
>As far as I've found, the heaviest armored thing in the sourcebooks
>is a fully-armored GMC Banshee with Body 6/Armor 18.
Even the STANDARD Banshee (B/A: 6/6) is a MILITARY Vehicle. What the
frag do you want... when you go up against military targets, you found
a fast lane toward a large person in black robes...

>Is there a
>single weapon in the game that *doesn't* get reduced to 2's for
>the Banshee's resistance roll?
Relampago 120mm Railgun: 20D (Aztlan Sourcebook, p.179)
Vengeance MMG: 9S, Minigun,
Vanquisher HMG: 10S, Minigun,
Victory Rotary Cannon: 18D (12 rnds/complex action)
Vigilant Rotary Cannon: 20D ((12 rnds/complex action)
AAM, Rockets (all from RBB, with Sourcebook updates in SRII, p. 283)
Generic Assault Cannon: 18D,
also PAC: 18D

Is that enough? :-)

>And the thing that's got me wondering is that the GMC Banshee is listed
>as a *LIGHT* re-con type of LAV. Hey! If that is *light*, I'd hate
>to see *heavy*. Even the most armored tank in Fields of Fire "only"
>has an armor of 15. (I think...)

>Is the light recon Banshee supposed to be this tough vs. all of the
>stuff in the game?
Hey, we *do* talk military, don't we?

>P.P.S. Regarding all of the munchkinism stuff going around... hey!
>It's a *game*. If everyone is having fun playing in the game, then
>it doesn't matter whether it's 'munchkinous' or not. Fun is the only
>thing that matters.
*applaud* *throw hat up* hurray, finally someone said!

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 3
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:55:20 GMT
Brett Barksdale writes
>
> I'm trying to get a handle on how some of the higher-end vehicular
> armor/weapons combo's go. (Not that I plan on really using any of
> it - but I'm one of those GMs that's disturbed when I see, or think
> I see, something goofy in the balance of the game system).
Yeah the grand 'mages vs sams' debate folks should have a look at the
RBB and fof, how well will your super chars survive a steel lynx with
limked LMG's firing full auto APDS no recoil? and thats just an easy
option. Combinations involving a mage and a rigger get very very nasty
invisible shielded drones with hardened armour are plain not
fair. [fortunately very rare]

> I realize
> that SR II is *not* a vehicle combat game (and they admit as much),
> but sooner or later you're going to end up with a car chase and
> vehicle weapons being fired etc.
>
> As far as I've found, the heaviest armored thing in the sourcebooks
> is a fully-armored GMC Banshee with Body 6/Armor 18. Is there a
> single weapon in the game that *doesn't* get reduced to 2's for
> the Banshee's resistance roll?
plenty.

> this banshee if a PC with an actual Karma pool gets ahold of one of
> these babies... :-) (Don't worry - my players don't have a banshee - nor
> are they likely to, without a buttload of planning and ingenuity. But I hate
> to just go 'no' on things. If they are willing to face what I think
> is the difficulty involved with "getting in the driver's seat" and
> prevail, then party on...)
>
will probably attract enough attention if they are not very careful
where they use it.

> And the thing that's got me wondering is that the GMC Banshee is listed
> as a *LIGHT* re-con type of LAV. Hey! If that is *light*, I'd hate
> to see *heavy*. Even the most armored tank in Fields of Fire "only"
> has an armor of 15. (I think...)
Why do you think the stonewall MBT has no stats? simple the game
would be, they who shoot first wins, the only way here is roleplay
such the kit is not used in combat, then its stats don't matter,
though they can be fun for debates about them.

>
> Is the light recon Banshee supposed to be this tough vs. all of the
> stuff in the game?
>
> Is is possible to place AP rounds in the big-ass (20D) rotary
> autocannon?
Yes, and i managed about 32 recoil compensation (with every vaugely
legal tweak in the book) 32D APDS anyone... and the things probably
about 20mm or so.

> Does control pool work the same way as combat pool in the sense
> that -
> if you get more success on your control pool in a body resistance
> test for your vehicle than the attacker got successes, do you
> dodge the entire damage? I wouldn't *think* so, but does it say
> that anywhere in the SRII sourcebooks one way or another?
Yes.

>
> P.P.S. Regarding all of the munchkinism stuff going around... hey!
> It's a *game*. If everyone is having fun playing in the game, then
> it doesn't matter whether it's 'munchkinous' or not. Fun is the only
> thing that matters.
>
Very true though the true munchkins (rare fortunately) are a pest as
they tend to spoil things for others.

Mark
Message no. 4
From: brett@***.orst.edu (Brett Barksdale)
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 09:47:27 PDT
>From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
>>At 22:48 Uhr 13.05.96, Brett Barksdale wrote:

>>Is there a
>>single weapon in the game that *doesn't* get reduced to 2's for
>>the Banshee's resistance roll?

>Relampago 120mm Railgun: 20D (Aztlan Sourcebook, p.179)
>Vengeance MMG: 9S, Minigun,
>Vanquisher HMG: 10S, Minigun,
>Victory Rotary Cannon: 18D (12 rnds/complex action)
>Vigilant Rotary Cannon: 20D ((12 rnds/complex action)
>AAM, Rockets (all from RBB, with Sourcebook updates in SRII, p. 283)
>Generic Assault Cannon: 18D,
>also PAC: 18D

>Is that enough? :-)

Hey! You can never have too much... ;-)

However, without taking AP rounds into consideration, most of the
above won't work against an 18 armor, will it? The 18 armor acts
as a barrier rating - so anything with a power of 18 or less
just won't do squat. And the rules specifically say that you look
at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
effect. This means that the Vengeance, Vanquisher and Victory all
fail. (The victory starts at a 18D. W/o armor piercing rounds, it
is one level too weak to affect an 18 armor banshee. Am I correct
on that?)

>Hey, we *do* talk military, don't we?

True enough. I was just trying to reconcile, say, 2 Banshee's
shooting at each other. At first glance, it seemed to me that
each one could shoot at the other all day long with nothing
happening. But that 20D autocannon changes things, doesn't it? :-)

- Brett
Message no. 5
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:06:13 -0500
>And the rules specifically say that you look
>at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
>effect.

Whoops. Missed that line. Oh well.

Then another note. I didn't think that heavy weapons treated vehicles as
barriers. I thought they were treated as normal. Anyone know for sure?
Message no. 6
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:04:19 -0500
>However, without taking AP rounds into consideration, most of the
>above won't work against an 18 armor, will it? The 18 armor acts
>as a barrier rating - so anything with a power of 18 or less
>just won't do squat. And the rules specifically say that you look
>at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
>effect. This means that the Vengeance, Vanquisher and Victory all
>fail. (The victory starts at a 18D. W/o armor piercing rounds, it
>is one level too weak to affect an 18 armor banshee. Am I correct
>on that?)

That's 18D if you only fire 1 bullet. If you fire 12, it does, uh, well I
don't remember autofire damage rules, but I think the power goes up by the
number of shots over the first, and the damage level for every three, so
that would be 4 damage levels over D (in theory) and a power of 29 or 30
(depending on whether or not the first shot counts) but anyway, if you do
autofire, you can start to really blow things away.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"An object at rest cannot be stopped! YEAH, BABY! YEAH!" - The Evil
Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight.
Message no. 7
From: dbuehrer@****.org (David Buehrer)
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:59:42 -0600 (MDT)
Brett Barksdale wrote:
|
|
|>From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
|>>At 22:48 Uhr 13.05.96, Brett Barksdale wrote:
|
|>>Is there a
|>>single weapon in the game that *doesn't* get reduced to 2's for
|>>the Banshee's resistance roll?
|
|>Relampago 120mm Railgun: 20D (Aztlan Sourcebook, p.179)
|>Vengeance MMG: 9S, Minigun,
|>Vanquisher HMG: 10S, Minigun,
|>Victory Rotary Cannon: 18D (12 rnds/complex action)
|>Vigilant Rotary Cannon: 20D ((12 rnds/complex action)
|>AAM, Rockets (all from RBB, with Sourcebook updates in SRII, p. 283)
|>Generic Assault Cannon: 18D,
|>also PAC: 18D
|
|However, without taking AP rounds into consideration, most of the
|above won't work against an 18 armor, will it? The 18 armor acts
|as a barrier rating - so anything with a power of 18 or less
|just won't do squat. And the rules specifically say that you look
|at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
|effect. This means that the Vengeance, Vanquisher and Victory all
|fail. (The victory starts at a 18D. W/o armor piercing rounds, it
|is one level too weak to affect an 18 armor banshee. Am I correct
|on that?)
|
|>Hey, we *do* talk military, don't we?
|
|True enough. I was just trying to reconcile, say, 2 Banshee's
|shooting at each other. At first glance, it seemed to me that
|each one could shoot at the other all day long with nothing
|happening. But that 20D autocannon changes things, doesn't it? :-)

Also, and I can't quite remember how it works, but attacks that don't have
enough power to overcome the armor will still damage it (lower the barrier
rating). The first shot won't go through, and maybe not the second or
third, but keep plugging away and sooner or later there won't be enough
armor left to stop the attack.

I had a squad of LS cops take down a PC's armored limo with repeated
shotgun attacks. Boy was the PC pissed.

Of course a Banshee won't give you a whole lot of time to do this... :)

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
~~~~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.html~~~~~~
Message no. 8
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:33:20 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 14 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> That's 18D if you only fire 1 bullet. If you fire 12, it does, uh, well I
> don't remember autofire damage rules, but I think the power goes up by the
> number of shots over the first, and the damage level for every three, so
> that would be 4 damage levels over D (in theory) and a power of 29 or 30
> (depending on whether or not the first shot counts) but anyway, if you do
> autofire, you can start to really blow things away.
>
>
>

But you figure out whether or not it can penetrate a barrier _before_ you
figure in autofire...

On the other hand, barriers do degrade. =)




|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 9
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 21:43:37 +0200
At 18:47 Uhr 14.05.96, Brett Barksdale wrote:
>>From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
[weapon list snipped]
>>Is that enough? :-)
>
>Hey! You can never have too much... ;-)
Hmjam... right! *grab all weapons in range*

>However, without taking AP rounds into consideration, most of the
>above won't work against an 18 armor, will it? The 18 armor acts
>as a barrier rating - so anything with a power of 18 or less
>just won't do squat.
Ooops... haven't thought at that rule. You are absolutely right, of course.
My mistake came from a house rule... *sigh*

>And the rules specifically say that you look
>at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
>effect. This means that the Vengeance, Vanquisher and Victory all
>fail. (The victory starts at a 18D. W/o armor piercing rounds, it
>is one level too weak to affect an 18 armor banshee. Am I correct
>on that?)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. As I said: My mistake. Our house rule 'for dramatic
effect' uses the autofire-staged power level...

>>Hey, we *do* talk military, don't we?
>
>True enough. I was just trying to reconcile, say, 2 Banshee's
>shooting at each other. At first glance, it seemed to me that
>each one could shoot at the other all day long with nothing
>happening. But that 20D autocannon changes things, doesn't it? :-)

I am quite sure the boys with the steel hats have some heavier
weapons then the ones that reach street level. I am so sure I already
turned down two runs against the mils!

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 10
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 21:43:48 +0200
At 19:06 Uhr 14.05.96, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>Then another note. I didn't think that heavy weapons treated vehicles as
>barriers. I thought they were treated as normal. Anyone know for sure?
SRI rule.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 12:20:14 +1030
>Then another note. I didn't think that heavy weapons treated vehicles as
>barriers. I thought they were treated as normal. Anyone know for sure?

No... certain heavy weapons treate vehicles as normal. Things like the
AVM (assuming you get a direct hit). It explains it in the "Weapons
against Vehicles" section, and in the description of the weapon.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 12
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:58:01 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 9:40/14 May 96...

> Even the STANDARD Banshee (B/A: 6/6) is a MILITARY Vehicle. What the
> frag do you want... when you go up against military targets, you found
> a fast lane toward a large person in black robes...

The standard Banshee has an armor of 18, seeing how SR2 says we have to
multiply the vehicle armor ratings from SR1 source material by 3 to find
the SR2 ratings...

> >Is there a
> >single weapon in the game that *doesn't* get reduced to 2's for
> >the Banshee's resistance roll?
[weapons snipped]
> Is that enough? :-)

You've only mentioned all the weapons that *will* get reduced to 2 :)

AFAIK there are no weapons with a Power Level over 20, which is what would
be needed to make the Banshee resist against a TN higher than 2. A 120mm
railgun would be highly unrealistic at only 20D, but I assume this is to
keep things playable.
(As a comparison, if you take the Power Level to be a measure of armor
penetrating ability, some modern anti-tank missiles can penetrate up to a
meter of steel armor plating, while a rifle bullet does a few centimeters
*max*. If the scale were linear, a 120mm tank gun should do something in
the order of 500D damage IMO. Non-linear scales seem more playable, for
some reason :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's what being a man is all about, Steve: making mistakes and not caring
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 13
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:27:35 +0100
Mike Broadwater said on 12:06/14 May 96...

> >And the rules specifically say that you look
> >at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
> >effect.
>
> Whoops. Missed that line. Oh well.
>
> Then another note. I didn't think that heavy weapons treated vehicles as
> barriers. I thought they were treated as normal. Anyone know for sure?

Vehicle armor is hardened -- that means that you compare the armor rating
to the *base* Power Level of the weapon.

IF base_power <= armor THEN GOTO PRINT "Shot has no effect. Have a nice
day."

This means that firing a Victory cannon at full fire rate (12 rounds per
phase) at a Banshee will just result in 12 rounds bouncing all over the
place. Firing 12 rounds from a Vigilant at the same Banshee will give the
Banshee 14D damage to resist.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's what being a man is all about, Steve: making mistakes and not caring!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 11:40:37 GMT
"Gurth" writes
>
> Vehicle armor is hardened -- that means that you compare the armor rating
> to the *base* Power Level of the weapon.
>
> IF base_power <= armor THEN GOTO PRINT "Shot has no effect. Have a nice
> day."
>
correct.

> This means that firing a Victory cannon at full fire rate (12 rounds per
> phase) at a Banshee will just result in 12 rounds bouncing all over the
> place. Firing 12 rounds from a Vigilant at the same Banshee will give the
> Banshee 14D damage to resist.
>
appart form the fact it takes 6 body off the latter (20+12 - 18 - 6
), correct this is the principal reason why you should try and
avoid playing at such power levels the gap between 'laugh' and 'oh
frag' is just too small.

by the way the maximum power level you can get normally is 35D, 5 off
12.7cm ripple rockets, the things are (unlike everything else)
linearly stacking.
If that doesn't do it try 100kg (not i won't ask where you found it)
of C12 thats 12 * root(100) = 12*10 = 120D um ah well, that
'vicinty' ceases to exist ok. For some strange reason C12 seems to be
something characters i have seen always have under 10kg of, i coudn't
wonder why.

Mark
Message no. 15
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:17:05 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 14 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >And the rules specifically say that you look
> >at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
> >effect.
>
> Whoops. Missed that line. Oh well.
> Then another note. I didn't think that heavy weapons treated vehicles as
> barriers. I thought they were treated as normal. Anyone know for sure?

Vehicular armor is treated as a barrier as per standard rules.
That's fine in and of itself. The problem is in the ambiguity of the
armor and barrier reduction rules.

Marc
Message no. 16
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:57:53 -0500 (CDT)
On Wed, 15 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Mike Broadwater said on 12:06/14 May 96...
>
> > >And the rules specifically say that you look
> > >at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
> > >effect.
> >
> > Whoops. Missed that line. Oh well.
> >
> > Then another note. I didn't think that heavy weapons treated vehicles as
> > barriers. I thought they were treated as normal. Anyone know for sure?
>
> Vehicle armor is hardened -- that means that you compare the armor rating
> to the *base* Power Level of the weapon.
>
> IF base_power <= armor THEN GOTO PRINT "Shot has no effect. Have a nice
> day."
>

Actually, since Vehicle Armor is a Barrier, it knocks the rating down one
point.


> This means that firing a Victory cannon at full fire rate (12 rounds per
> phase) at a Banshee will just result in 12 rounds bouncing all over the
> place. Firing 12 rounds from a Vigilant at the same Banshee will give the
> Banshee 14D damage to resist.
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> That's what being a man is all about, Steve: making mistakes and not caring!
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> -> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-
>
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> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
>


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"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 17
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 18:33:02 +1000 (EST)
Brett Barksdale writes:

> Is there anyone else out there who is somewhat muddled when
> it comes to vehicle combat/weapons in SRII and is desparately
> looking forward to the Rigger Black Book II? :-)

Heh! You've summed me up pretty damn well actually. Vehicle armour is one
of my longest and oldest questions about SR rules. Here is my take on what
the rules say, and the associated problems (taken directly from my questions
compilation that got sent to Mike - _before_ he became DLoH - and which
still hasn't got back :-():

Topic Two: Vehicle Armour
-------------------------

Just how does vehicle armour work anyhow? It seems mighty confusing
to me. I'll include a review of how I think it goes, and could you point out
incorrect assumptions and interpretations in it for me? (Relevant pages are
99 & 108 SRII.)

Case 1: Base Power less than or equal to Vehicle armour rating

Nothing at all happens. You do not get to damage the armour, you do
not get to reduce it like a barrier rating. You do nothing.

Case 2: Base Power greater than Vehicle armour rating

A] If the weapon is a normal weapon (not armour-piercing)

i) Reduce Damage category by one. If the weapon is rated at
light, it does no damage.

ii) Subtract Vehicle Armour rating _plus_ Body rating from
the weapon's power. (Minimum of 2. It is likely here that
nearly all weapons will have a resultant of 2.)
Power-(Vehicle Armour+Body)

iii) Roll Body+(Armour/2) (rounding down) against the target
number determined above.
Body+(Armour/2) vs. target determined above.

B] If the weapon is an armour piercing variety (eg, AVM/R, or half
the weapons out of FoF)

i) Do not reduce damage category by one.

ii) Subtract 1/2 the Vehicle Armour Rating (rounding down)
from the Power of the weapon.
Power-(Armour)/2

iii) Roll Body+(Armour/2) (rounding down) against the target
number determined above.
Body+(Armour/2) vs. target determined above.

Note that the rules seem contradictory, on page 108 it says, in
reference to armour piercing weapons "Those weapons have a
semiarmor-piercing warhead and do not have their Damage Level reduced, but
the Power is reduced by the vehicle's armor." While on page 99, it says
"Against AVRs, the Barrier Rating of a barrier is halved (round down), as is
the Armor Rating for vehicles (round down)." Now, I decided to make use of
the rule on page 99, but it does get a bit deadly if your vehicle gets hit
with an armour piercing weapon.

---

Right, now for the in depth current discussion :-). The point that many
people make is that vehicle armour is reduced in Rating in the same way that
a barrier is reduced in Rating when it gets hit (see the table on p. 98).
Now, I assume the reason that they say this is because the book says, on
page 108:

"In attacks against vehicles /with/ armour, the armour acts as a
Barrier Rating. That is, if the attacking weapon does not exceed the rating
of the vehicle armour, it will not penetrate."

And, I can see why this is thought. But two things make me think
differently. The first is that the sentance after the one saying that
vehicle armour is like a barrier _only_ specifies the "bouncing" effect of
barriers, not the degradation effects. This is fairly tenuous I know, as it
could just be assumed that the other effects apply also, even though they
are not mentioned. The second, and more important thing that comes to mind
to backup my view is the "Armour Degradation" rule on p. 75 of FoF. This
rule introduces "armour stripping", which had until this time, not existed
in SRII. It also makes specific note that the rule also applies to vehicle
armour. From this I infer that prior to this ruling, there was no rule
about degradation of vehicle armour (just like there was no rule about
degradation of personal armour). Also, it would seem silly if there were
_two_ different methods of degrading vehicular armour in the game.

<Snipped note on just about nothing being able to scratch a Banshee.>

Well, if you make use of the rule on page 99 that says against AP weapons
(eg AVMs), the vehicle only reduces the Power by half (round down) of it's
armour Rating, then you'll quickly see that a single AVM will likely toast a
Banshee.

Banshee: Body: 6
Armour: 18

AVM: Power: 16

Against the AVM, the Banshee gets to reduce the Power by 9 (half it's armour
Rating). This means the vehicle rolls againts a TN of 9. It gets to roll
Body + half Armour Rating (round down), which comes to 15 dice. It should
expect 1-2 successes. Which means if the firer has any skill at all, the
thing is toast unless the rigger flying it has a decent Control Pool.

Of course, my interpretation that vehicle armour does not degrade in the
same manner as barriers does mean that it is _impossible_ to even scratch a
Banshee with a assault cannon - even the rotary ones.

> Is the light recon Banshee supposed to be this tough vs. all of the
> stuff in the game?

Well, FoF makes specific note that in SR armour technology has outpaced
weapons technology (which is pretty much the opposite to what happens in
RL). Just look at Military Grade Armour - near enough impregnable.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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Message no. 18
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:11:31 +0100
Dr. Bolthy von Schotz said on 13:57/15 May 96...

> > IF base_power <= armor THEN GOTO PRINT "Shot has no effect. Have a nice
> > day."
>
> Actually, since Vehicle Armor is a Barrier, it knocks the rating down one
> point.

That is not explicitly stated in the rules. It makes sense to treat
vehicle armor as a barrier, but you're nowhere directed to do so.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een mens kan zich vergissen, maar dit is toch al te lullig...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 19
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:38:21 GMT
Damion Milliken writes

> A] If the weapon is a normal weapon (not armour-piercing)
>
> i) Reduce Damage category by one. If the weapon is rated at
> light, it does no damage.
This also affects L damge other attacks, eg some breath weapons.

>
> ii) Subtract Vehicle Armour rating _plus_ Body rating from
> the weapon's power. (Minimum of 2. It is likely here that
> nearly all weapons will have a resultant of 2.)
> Power-(Vehicle Armour+Body)
>
> iii) Roll Body+(Armour/2) (rounding down) against the target
> number determined above.
> Body+(Armour/2) vs. target determined above.
>
> B] If the weapon is an armour piercing variety (eg, AVM/R, or half
> the weapons out of FoF)
>
I think this case should be for the AV (anti vehicle) weapons only,
FASA did not intend it to apply to ordinary guns merely loaded
with AP ammo.

> i) Do not reduce damage category by one.
>
True for AVM and AVR others are less defined.

> ii) Subtract 1/2 the Vehicle Armour Rating (rounding down)
> from the Power of the weapon.
> Power-(Armour)/2
>
It never states as far as i know that you don't still take the body
off, body = composite armour, it will still get divide by two.

note that the AVM and AVR have semiAP warheads, its a bit open to
interpretation as to wether they get to halve armour as well as not
get the vehicle auto stage down.

> iii) Roll Body+(Armour/2) (rounding down) against the target
> number determined above.
> Body+(Armour/2) vs. target determined above.
>
> Note that the rules seem contradictory,
Its a mess, probably why there are so manys 'um well i think so'
comments in my answers

> on page 108 it says, in
> reference to armour piercing weapons "Those weapons have a
> semiarmor-piercing warhead and do not have their Damage Level reduced, but
> the Power is reduced by the vehicle's armor." While on page 99, it says
> "Against AVRs, the Barrier Rating of a barrier is halved (round down), as is
> the Armor Rating for vehicles (round down)." Now, I decided to make use of
> the rule on page 99, but it does get a bit deadly if your vehicle gets hit
> with an armour piercing weapon.
>
> ---
>
> Right, now for the in depth current discussion :-). The point that many

> The second, and more important thing that comes to mind
> to backup my view is the "Armour Degradation" rule on p. 75 of FoF. This
> rule introduces "armour stripping", which had until this time, not existed
> in SRII. It also makes specific note that the rule also applies to vehicle
> armour. From this I infer that prior to this ruling, there was no rule
> about degradation of vehicle armour
true.

> Also, it would seem silly if there were
> _two_ different methods of degrading vehicular armour in the game.
yep.

> Banshee: Body: 6
> Armour: 18
>
> AVM: Power: 16
>
> Against the AVM, the Banshee gets to reduce the Power by 9 (half it's armour
> Rating).
+ 1/2 body = 12. thats assuming you count the 'semi AP warhead' as an
AP attack, but thats never defined by FASA, i suspect my rules no
this have drifted with GM mood in the past.

> This means the vehicle rolls againts a TN of 9.
6 or boing! see above. not that it helps much

> It gets to roll
> Body + half Armour Rating (round down), which comes to 15 dice. It should
> expect 1-2 successes. Which means if the firer has any skill at all, the
> thing is toast unless the rigger flying it has a decent Control Pool.
>
> Of course, my interpretation that vehicle armour does not degrade in the
> same manner as barriers does mean that it is _impossible_ to even scratch a
> Banshee with a assault cannon - even the rotary ones.
>
Assuming you load regular ammo. Load explosive and 18D->30D bounce
becomes 19D->31D less 18+6 = 7D yeouch!, Load AP and well the rotary
cannons kill anything including great dragons with barrier spells up.
[ even Harlequin would probably live by a detect incomming - yikes get
me outa here!, anchored style complex not but trying to withstand such
an attack]

> > Is the light recon Banshee supposed to be this tough vs. all of the
> > stuff in the game?
>
> Well, FoF makes specific note that in SR armour technology has outpaced
> weapons technology (which is pretty much the opposite to what happens in
> RL). Just look at Military Grade Armour - near enough impregnable.
>
Manabolt :), or just hand your sniper a Barrat 121 (if they have
milspec fairs fair.
Or the sensible answer is to run like mad, i means milspec kitted
badguys are going to kinda stand out! The one time i put a set of the
stuff out the rigger left the drone in the way on 'it's not mine!' as
a diversion and the PC's simply ran (don't blame them, amazing how
little use a super goon is if he cannot find the targets, which is
exactly what i had hope dwould happen to something i knew the PC's
could not realistically take out)

Mark
>
Message no. 20
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 10:58:55 -0500 (CDT)
On Thu, 16 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Dr. Bolthy von Schotz said on 13:57/15 May 96...
>
> > > IF base_power <= armor THEN GOTO PRINT "Shot has no effect. Have a
nice
> > > day."
> >
> > Actually, since Vehicle Armor is a Barrier, it knocks the rating down one
> > point.
>
> That is not explicitly stated in the rules. It makes sense to treat
> vehicle armor as a barrier, but you're nowhere directed to do so.
>
> --

i always figured it was sort of implied... It says in the vehicle section
that it is "a Barrier rating". Then you look up the rules for Barrier
ratings, and it has lists of effects on Barrier ratings when hit by
various power levels... I suppose they could have made it more cleare,
but they must must have wanted to stay away from having too much vehicle
rules. =P



|\ /\ |\ | |\
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http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 21
From: brett@***.orst.edu (Brett Barksdale)
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:51:46 PDT
Ok. Vehicle armor counts as a barrier rating. Even if it
doesn't explicitly say so in SRII, I would assume that it
would degrade like any other barrier. Blast any vehicle long
enough, and it's gonna go 'boom!'. :-)

With that assumption in place, can someone explain to me exactly
how a normal barrier degrades and how vehicle armor degrades?
Every time I re-read those sections, I come away with, yet,
another different interpretation of it and it's driving me
nuts!

I am specifically curious about barrier ratings vs:

normal ammunition
AP ammuntition
explosive ammunition
anti-vehicle weapons
melee (blunt) attacks
melee (edged) attacks

Would a vehicle with armor 18 be treated differently in
any way from, say, a random wall with a barrier rating of
18?

Basically, I'm getting confused on the normal rating vs.
the "adjusted rating" etc. ad nauseum.

A vehicle with armor 18 will take no damage from a panther
cannon (18D). But will the armor degrade?
A vehicle with armor 18 will take no damage from a vindicator
minigun (7S, full-auto fire rate of 15), but will the armor
degrade? If so, does it degrade according to it's full-auto
power (21) or its base (7)?

A vigilant (20D) will both damage a vehicle with 18 armor and
degrade the armor as well. By how much? Based on its base power
or its BF/FA power?

Help! :-)

- Brett
Message no. 22
From: Tom Pendergrast <pendergr@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:33:58 -0700 (PDT)
> > Is there anyone else out there who is somewhat muddled when
> > it comes to vehicle combat/weapons in SRII and is desparately
> > looking forward to the Rigger Black Book II? :-)

That covers everyone I've ever gamed with...

<scratching a banshee>
> Against the AVM, the Banshee gets to reduce the Power by 9 (half it's armour
> Rating). This means the vehicle rolls againts a TN of 9. It gets to roll
> Body + half Armour Rating (round down), which comes to 15 dice. It should
> expect 1-2 successes. Which means if the firer has any skill at all, the
> thing is toast unless the rigger flying it has a decent Control Pool.

There is one weapon that I have found to be *somewhat* effective against
vehicles... the Barret 121. 14D AP is a bitch, even against vehicles.

---Tom---
Message no. 23
From: cobaltblue@********.net
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 21:23:09 PDT
On Wed, 15 May 1996 13:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Marc A Renouf wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 14 May 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>
>> >And the rules specifically say that you look
>> >at the power of the weapon *before* autofire power staging takes
>> >effect.
>>
>> Whoops. Missed that line. Oh well.
>> Then another note. I didn't think that heavy weapons treated vehicles as
>> barriers. I thought they were treated as normal. Anyone know for sure?
>
> Vehicular armor is treated as a barrier as per standard rules.
>That's fine in and of itself. The problem is in the ambiguity of the
>armor and barrier reduction rules.
>
>Marc
>

Exactly one of my problems in the past. Sometimes we'd get confused when figuring
attacks on vehicle armor (myself and the other GM in the group) and finally we decided
that to work with the rules in SRII, pg 108, we'd conduct it as though it was fire through
(which seems to be what they're describing, same verbage as pg. 98, in essence, "
...however, if the barrier rating exceeds the weapon power, the attack is stopped cold.
Note, however, that the barrier may still have its barrier rating reduced....".

We go with fire through, minus the +8 modifier (cuz you're probably not trying to shoot
someone inside, just damage the vehicle. example in this thread being the Banshee) and run
it standard per rules pg. 108-109. The major problem is, although it does say a weaker
weapon can damage the barrier, it doesn't specify how to weaken the armor, so we go with
modified "Break Through" and say if the weapon power is 1/2 the barrier rating,
reduce the barrier by 1.

The whole concept of resisting damage by vehicles w/armor as described on pg. 108
approaches ludicrous speed anyway. Resisting against a target number from which you
subtract the body and armor ratings from the weapon power rating? The driver rolls body
plus half the armor rating? For the Banshee, this means 14 resist dice, and the target
number will never exceed 2, cause the Banshee's body+armor rating is 24 which now I'm
supposed to subtract from my 18 power rating for my assault cannon, which can't be done,
but since I know no TN can be less than 2, so be it. Even SAMS in SRII only do 16D, which
means they couldn't even fire through the armor.

cobaltblue@********.net

Rod Schmidt
Ft. Bragg, NC
Message no. 24
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:52:00 +0100
Brett Barksdale said on 10:51/16 May 96...

> With that assumption in place, can someone explain to me exactly
> how a normal barrier degrades and how vehicle armor degrades?
> Every time I re-read those sections, I come away with, yet,
> another different interpretation of it and it's driving me
> nuts!

What you do is you compare the Power Level (PL) to the Effective Barrier
Rating (EBR), which is based on the actual Barrier Rating (BR) [this will
start to look like Phoenix Command soon :)] as explained below. Keep in
mind that the EBR and BR are not necessarily the same -- they may be, in
some cases, but not always. The PL is the *base* PL for the round, not
adjusted for autofire or bursts.

There are now three possibilities:

a) the PL is smaller than one-half the EBR. In this case, nothing happens
except for some chips and scratches to the barrier.
b) the PL is less than, or equal to, the EBR. The BR (not the EBR) is
reduced by 1.
c) the PL is larger than the EBR. Subtract the PL from the EBR, multiply
by 2, and divide by the BR. Reduce the BR by this number, and a hole
is made, with a width in meters equal to one-half this number.

> I am specifically curious about barrier ratings vs:
>
> normal ammunition

Double the BR to find the EBR.

> AP ammuntition

EBR = BR (at least, that's what you get if you apply the "1/2 Ballistic"
rule from APDS ammo)

> explosive ammunition

EBR = BR x 2 to determine damage to targets on the other side, but to
figure damage to the barrier itself, EBR = BR / 2.

> anti-vehicle weapons

EBR = BR.

> melee (blunt) attacks
> melee (edged) attacks

EBR = BR x 2 in both cases.

> Would a vehicle with armor 18 be treated differently in
> any way from, say, a random wall with a barrier rating of
> 18?

Not really, if you apply the barrier reduction rules to vehicle armor
anyway.

> A vehicle with armor 18 will take no damage from a panther
> cannon (18D). But will the armor degrade?

You have a few options here:
a) A Panther cannon fires "a shell," so the EBR is twice the BR. The PL is
18, while the EBR is 36; the PL is exactly one-half the EBR, so the BR is
reduced by 1, making it 17. The EBR thus drops to 34 (17 x 2).
b) A Panther cannon fires explosive shells, which means that the EBR is
equal to one-half the BR for figuring damage to the armor. This makes a
PL of 18 against an EBR of 9. 18 x 2 / 9 = 4, so the BR loses 4 points
and a hole 2 meters wide is opened.

> A vehicle with armor 18 will take no damage from a vindicator
> minigun (7S, full-auto fire rate of 15), but will the armor
> degrade? If so, does it degrade according to it's full-auto
> power (21) or its base (7)?

It does not degrade, because the base PL of 7 is less than one-half twice
the vehicle armor. In simpler words: the base PL is less than the armor
rating, so nothing happens. The bullets just bounce off.

> A vigilant (20D) will both damage a vehicle with 18 armor and
> degrade the armor as well. By how much? Based on its base power
> or its BF/FA power?

Its base PL. Its PL is 20, while the EBR is 36. 20 is less than 36, but
more than one-half of 36, or 18. The BR goes down by 1, so the EBR is now
34.
Unless you use the b) rule for the Panther cannon, and assume the Vigilant
fires explosive shells. In this case, its BR would go down by 10 (to 8),
and a 5-meter hole is made in the armor.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een mens kan zich vergissen, maar dit is toch al te lullig...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 25
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:52:01 +0100
Dr. Bolthy von Schotz said on 10:58/16 May 96...

> > That is not explicitly stated in the rules. It makes sense to treat
> > vehicle armor as a barrier, but you're nowhere directed to do so.
>
> i always figured it was sort of implied... It says in the vehicle section
> that it is "a Barrier rating". Then you look up the rules for Barrier
> ratings, and it has lists of effects on Barrier ratings when hit by
> various power levels... I suppose they could have made it more cleare,
> but they must must have wanted to stay away from having too much vehicle
> rules. =P

And still I try to avoid having vehicle combats whenever possible :) The
"just wing it" approach still works best for vehicles in SR, if you ask me
(and that's after the vast improvement the SR2 rules were over SR1...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een mens kan zich vergissen, maar dit is toch al te lullig...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 26
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:43:42 GMT
Gurth writes
>
[very good explanation of barriers trimmed]

> > A vigilant (20D) will both damage a vehicle with 18 armor and
> > degrade the armor as well. By how much? Based on its base power
> > or its BF/FA power?
>
Assuming you take the view
Hardened = barrier. i will discuss this below.

> Its base PL. Its PL is 20, while the EBR is 36.
with regular ammo yes.

> 20 is less than 36, but
> more than one-half of 36, or 18. The BR goes down by 1, so the EBR is now
> 34.
yep.

> Unless you use the b) rule for the Panther cannon, and assume the Vigilant
> fires explosive shells.
well improved explosive ammo is availability 6, so kind of likely

> In this case, its BR would go down by 10 (to 8),
> and a 5-meter hole is made in the armor.
>
and then the rest of the 12? round burst! [12? as you cannot fully
recoil compensate a full burst from this cannon, the most i managed
was 10, but IPE 32D is enough!]

round 2 does even more damage, no armour, oh say it was 10 rounds ipe
that leaves 20+8+2 = 30D vs no armour!! thats a bit fatal!

>
---
now note that vehicle armour is considered the same as hardened
critter armour (the latter refers to the former), you are therefore
implying that the same happens to critters? I'm not very keen i'm
afraid.

My interpretation of the vehicle armour comments on 'barrier like' is
that it only means with respect to 'rounds with a base (not moded for
burst etc) power equal to or less than the ARMOUR rating' will bounce
off, no roll to resist, with APDS even the Banshee is still easy
enough to hurt (A ranger arms SM3 with APDS will do a true 2M [(18 +
6)/2 = 12, 14S - 12 = 2S, vehicle stagedown = 2M]) ok destroy is
another matter but it is supposed to be a military! vehicle in a game
for folks with 'special forces small arms' as typically the best
weapons (as getting caught is usually such bad news if you need
anything bigger you have already lost).

Mark
Message no. 27
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:21:27 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 16 May 1996 cobaltblue@********.net wrote:

> The whole concept of resisting damage by vehicles w/armor as
> described on pg. 108 approaches ludicrous speed anyway. Resisting
> against a target number from which you subtract the body and armor
> ratings from the weapon power rating? The driver rolls body plus half
> the armor rating? For the Banshee, this means 14 resist dice, and the
> target number will never exceed 2, cause the Banshee's body+armor rating
> is 24 which now I'm supposed to subtract from my 18 power rating for my
> assault cannon, which can't be done, but since I know no TN can be less
> than 2, so be it. Even SAMS in SRII only do 16D, which means they
> couldn't even fire through the armor.

Grand Dragon ATGM. 20D armor piercing. Vehicle only gets *half*
armor, so not only does the power level of the attack stay higher, but
the Banshee rolls fewer dice. Against a stock Banshee, (Body 6 Armor
18), the tank would suffer a 5D (20 - (6+18/2)) hit, rolling 10 (6+9/2)
dice in resistance. Statisticaly speaking, that's about 3 successes,
which is not enough to reduce the wound to Moderate. If the shooter had
any successes whatsoever, the Banshee is going to be feeling the hurt.

As far as SAMs against Banshees go, remember that a Banshee is a
*tank*! Modern day SAMs are high-explosive fragmentation weapons that
generally explode in *proximity* to their target. If you compare 16D to
most of the planes in RBB, you'll find SAMs just as effective there as
they are now. If, on the other hand, we had flying tanks today, we would
probably make a variety of SAM with an armor piercing warhead for just
such threats. As such, it is not unreasonable to have a certain variety
of SAMs that use the armor piercing rules. Evil, but hey, that's
technology for ya.
Finally, to make SAM's evil without going the AP route, you can
just do the equivalent of a "called shot" with the SAM to avoid the
vehicle's armor. This would be the rough equivalent of sending a heat
seeking missile up the Banshee's tailpipe. Resisting 10D with only 6
dice. No fun.

Marc
Message no. 28
From: S.R.Bailleul@*********.salford.ac.uk
Subject: Re[2]: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: 17 May 96 17:51
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>

-At 22:48 Uhr 13.05.96, Brett Barksdale wrote:
- >As far as I've found, the heaviest armored thing in the sourcebooks
- >is a fully-armored GMC Banshee with Body 6/Armor 18.
-Even the STANDARD Banshee (B/A: 6/6) is a MILITARY Vehicle. What the
Same thing: vehicle armor is tripled, so your 6/6 is the same as Brett`s 6/18

- >Is there a
- >single weapon in the game that *doesn't* get reduced to 2's for
- >the Banshee's resistance roll?
-Relampago 120mm Railgun: 20D (Aztlan Sourcebook, p.179)
-Vengeance MMG: 9S, Minigun,
-Vanquisher HMG: 10S, Minigun,
-Victory Rotary Cannon: 18D (12 rnds/complex action)
-Vigilant Rotary Cannon: 20D ((12 rnds/complex action)
-AAM, Rockets (all from RBB, with Sourcebook updates in SRII, p. 283)
-Generic Assault Cannon: 18D,
-also PAC: 18D
-Is that enough? :-)

Well, actually it isn`t. Penetration is determined before multiple shot
modifiers; that is, Vengeance, Vanquisher and the weaker missiles/rockets
don`t even penetrate. They might reduce the armor rating ( vehicle armor is
treated as a barrier) but they don`t hurt. And the rest of the weapons you
stated are being reduced to 2`s, which is what Brett wanted confirmed in the
first place. There are two weapons that do hurt the Banshee, though. 1) Great
Dragon AVM 20D, Armor-Piercing Warhead (20-9+3=8)
2) Firelance Vehicle Laser 15S against half impact. A Barrier (and therefore
Vehic. Armor, too) has rating Ball/Imp. That is, the Banshee has the equivalent
of 18 impact reduced to 9 for the laser -> 15-9+3=3 (well, better than 2`s)

->And the thing that's got me wondering is that the GMC Banshee is listed
->as a *LIGHT* re-con type of LAV. Hey! If that is *light*, I'd hate
->to see *heavy*. Even the most armored tank in Fields of Fire "only"
->has an armor of 15. (I think...)

Fields of fire doesn`t have any "Tanks" in the usual sense. Think of them as
Armored Personnel Carriers or possibly Multi-Purpose Light Scouts. If we`re
talking Tanks look at the Stonewall MBT. (stands for Main Battle Tank, doesn`t
it?) The Ruhrmetall Behemoth is another fine example. You`ll find that one in
the German "Schlagschatten" adventure compilation. That one has got Body/Armor
8/8(24) and a Main Turret + 2 Medium + 2 Drone Racks! The Main Turret is a
larger and more ...um... military version of the medium turret from the RBB. Oh
and it`s a hovertank, not a LAV.

Sergej
Message no. 29
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 12:05:11 +0100
Marc A Renouf said on 10:21/17 May 96...

> As far as SAMs against Banshees go, remember that a Banshee is a
> *tank*! Modern day SAMs are high-explosive fragmentation weapons that
> generally explode in *proximity* to their target. If you compare 16D to
> most of the planes in RBB, you'll find SAMs just as effective there as
> they are now. If, on the other hand, we had flying tanks today, we would
> probably make a variety of SAM with an armor piercing warhead for just
> such threats.

Fire an ADATS missile at the Banshee :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can feel it coming back again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 30
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Heavy Vehicle - Armor and Weapons
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 12:05:11 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 13:43/17 May 96...

> [very good explanation of barriers trimmed]

Thank you :)

> > Unless you use the b) rule for the Panther cannon, and assume the Vigilant
> > fires explosive shells.
> well improved explosive ammo is availability 6, so kind of likely

What I mean is that you can argue that an assault cannon always fires
explosive shells, and that no other types are available for it, or you can
say that they fire non-explosive shells and cause the 20D damage by sheer
impact alone.

> > In this case, its BR would go down by 10 (to 8),
> > and a 5-meter hole is made in the armor.
> >
> and then the rest of the 12? round burst! [12? as you cannot fully
> recoil compensate a full burst from this cannon, the most i managed
> was 10, but IPE 32D is enough!]

That's theoretical. We were not concerned with figuring whether or not it
would hit, only what would happen if a hit is scored.

> round 2 does even more damage, no armour, oh say it was 10 rounds ipe
> that leaves 20+8+2 = 30D vs no armour!! thats a bit fatal!

Actually this would be for the entire burst, if you ask me. It's bit of a
fuzzy area, rules-wise, but applying the 20D separately for every shell
would be killing the game completely...

> now note that vehicle armour is considered the same as hardened
> critter armour (the latter refers to the former), you are therefore
> implying that the same happens to critters? I'm not very keen i'm
> afraid.

I'm not either, but I hadn't thought of that... Still if we go by this
interpretation of the rules, that is what would happen :/

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can feel it coming back again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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