Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:14:25 -0500
Okay, I'm enjoying having a group of knowledgable people to bounce questions
off of.

I saw someone post a few days back something to the effect of:

"If they roll more successes in the Spell Resistance test than you made, a
combat spell won't go off, but a manipulation spell will"

I remember this from SRI, but I thought it changed in SRII, that the target
had to reduce the damage to zero to have no effects....

Verdict?

BTW, this is really nice...I've spent 7 years with all these questions...now
I have someplace to ask them! Be sure to check out the Twice fifty and one
(actually, only 30)
at http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/sr/sr101.htm (srcenter.htm is the home page)
/ Brett "SwiftOne" Borger
\\\' , / // bxb121@***.edu
\\\// _/ //' http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/swiftone.htm
\_-//' / //<' Webmaster, Office of Physical Plant,
\ /// <//' The Pennsylvania State University
/ >> \\\` http://www.opp.psu.edu
/,)-^>> _\`
(/ \\ / \\\
// //\\\
((`
Message no. 2
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:37:40 -0700
> "If they roll more successes in the Spell Resistance test than you made,
a
> combat spell won't go off, but a manipulation spell will"

Correct because Manipulation spells are resolved as per ranged combat
rules...just like
being shot with a gun.
>
> I remember this from SRI, but I thought it changed in SRII, that the
target
> had to reduce the damage to zero to have no effects....

On manipulations yes, but on standard combat spells if the target generates
more successes than the caster the spell has no effect.

> BTW, this is really nice...I've spent 7 years with all these
questions...now
> I have someplace to ask them!

Garsh!!! Thanks.

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:32:27 -0500
>> "If they roll more successes in the Spell Resistance test than you made,
>> combat spell won't go off, but a manipulation spell will"
>On manipulations yes, but on standard combat spells if the target generates
>more successes than the caster the spell has no effect.

...so a Fireball will either hit them for at least serious damage, or do
nothing at all?
hmm....(Ditto with Powerbolt, Manabolt(my fav))...

...looks like magic just got weaker over here....



/ Brett "SwiftOne" Borger
\\\' , / // bxb121@***.edu
\\\// _/ //' http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/swiftone.htm
\_-//' / //<' Webmaster, Office of Physical Plant,
\ /// <//' The Pennsylvania State University
/ >> \\\` http://www.opp.psu.edu
/,)-^>> _\`
(/ \\ / \\\
// //\\\
((`
Message no. 4
From: Glenn Royer <cyberspunk@********.NET>
Subject: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:34:46 -0500
SH>"If they roll more successes in the Spell Resistance test than you made, a
SH>combat spell won't go off, but a manipulation spell will"

SH>I remember this from SRI, but I thought it changed in SRII, that the target
SH>had to reduce the damage to zero to have no effects....

SH>Verdict?

Combat spells are pretty much and all-or-nothing way to kill
someone. Mana bolt, your basic "Zap Him" spell, does no less than
serious damage. I'm pretty sure ties go to the attacker in this case,
too.
Just for redundancy's sake, I'll explain it another way, in terms
of a spell's "effect". A damaging manipulation spell's "effect" is to
create a real live bomb/blast/stream of something nasty and hurl it at
the target. It's an independant effect in that nothing (save getting no
successes) can keep the effect from happening. A Combat spell's effect
may or may not happen, it is dependent on how well the target can resist
the effects (since it's happening at an aural level). The combat
spell's effect will only happen if you acheive more successes than the
target.
Another way of explaining it. If you<106.5 Mp deleted by sysop)

-Cyberspunk
Cat-who-zaps-bad-guys-alone
SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net
Message no. 5
From: Glenn Royer <cyberspunk@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:11:42 -0500
SH>...so a Fireball will either hit them for at least serious damage, or do
SH>nothing at all?
SH>hmm....(Ditto with Powerbolt, Manabolt(my fav))...

that's about the size of it, swiftie.


SH>...looks like magic just got weaker over here....



yes, well, any magician worth his salt should be able to kill
most mundanes outright. still quite powerful.
-Cyberspunk
Cat-Who-Fireballs-Alone
SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net
Message no. 6
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:52:53 -0700
> >> "If they roll more successes in the Spell Resistance test than you
made,
> >> combat spell won't go off, but a manipulation spell will"
> >On manipulations yes, but on standard combat spells if the target
generates
> >more successes than the caster the spell has no effect.
>
> ...so a Fireball will either hit them for at least serious damage, or do
> nothing at all?
> hmm....(Ditto with Powerbolt, Manabolt(my fav))...
>
> ...looks like magic just got weaker over here....

True it will never do less than a serious, but if you get the same
successes as the caster you bet your butt your taking a serious at least.
Not to mention all your friends near you are taking damage too and your
clothes may be on fire etc etc etc...


~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:10:44 -0500
>> ...looks like magic just got weaker over here....
>
>True it will never do less than a serious, but if you get the same
>successes as the caster you bet your butt your taking a serious at least.
>Not to mention all your friends near you are taking damage too and your
>clothes may be on fire etc etc etc...

Well, I'm just saying that Fireball (and other such) seems less threatening
to the characters, because the odds of it just fizzling have increased (for
my runners at least)

Still, I'll see how it works before I go screwing with the rules.
-=SwiftOne=-

(Tomorrow _I_ get to run! Not GM, RUN! YEAH!)
/ Brett "SwiftOne" Borger
\\\' , / // bxb121@***.edu
\\\// _/ //' http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/swiftone.htm
\_-//' / //<' Webmaster, Office of Physical Plant,
\ /// <//' The Pennsylvania State University
/ >> \\\` http://www.opp.psu.edu
/,)-^>> _\`
(/ \\ / \\\
// //\\\
((`
Message no. 8
From: Caric <caric@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:17:12 -0700
> >> ...looks like magic just got weaker over here....
> >
> >True it will never do less than a serious, but if you get the same
> >successes as the caster you bet your butt your taking a serious at
least.
> >Not to mention all your friends near you are taking damage too and your
> >clothes may be on fire etc etc etc...
>
> Well, I'm just saying that Fireball (and other such) seems less
threatening
> to the characters, because the odds of it just fizzling have increased
(for
> my runners at least)
>
I see your point...that's why manabolt is an old fav..."oops i'm sorry was
that YOUR troll sammie?"

~Caric

"All the world's indeed a stage, we are mearly players.
Performers and portrayers. Each anothers audience,
outside the gilded cage." -Rush
caric@*******.com
Message no. 9
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:47:35 -0800
On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> >> "If they roll more successes in the Spell Resistance test than you
made,
> >> combat spell won't go off, but a manipulation spell will"
> >On manipulations yes, but on standard combat spells if the target generates
> >more successes than the caster the spell has no effect.
>
> ...so a Fireball will either hit them for at least serious damage, or do
> nothing at all?
> hmm....(Ditto with Powerbolt, Manabolt(my fav))...

Yup that's how it goes.

>
> ...looks like magic just got weaker over here....
>
>
>
> / Brett "SwiftOne" Borger
>

Hey, look at it this way...you get ONE(1) net success and the guy (ok,
possibly girl too) takes Serious damage. There is no armor to help the
resistance, just straight body.

~Tim
Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:05:30 -0500
>> ...looks like magic just got weaker over here....
>Hey, look at it this way...you get ONE(1) net success and the guy (ok,
>possibly girl too) takes Serious damage. There is no armor to help the
>resistance, just straight body.

Well, I've been running it THAT way for a long time.., the only difference
was if HE beat you by FOUR successes, he STILL took a light. Thus, weaker.
(Not bad, mind you, but less threatening to the players)

/ Brett "SwiftOne" Borger
\\\' , / // bxb121@***.edu
\\\// _/ //' http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/swiftone.htm
\_-//' / //<' Webmaster, Office of Physical Plant,
\ /// <//' The Pennsylvania State University
/ >> \\\` http://www.opp.psu.edu
/,)-^>> _\`
(/ \\ / \\\
// //\\\
((`
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:43:28 +0100
Brett Borger said on 13:14/23 Jan 97...

> I saw someone post a few days back something to the effect of:
>
> "If they roll more successes in the Spell Resistance test than you made, a
> combat spell won't go off, but a manipulation spell will"

That was me who wrote that, I believe.

> I remember this from SRI, but I thought it changed in SRII, that the target
> had to reduce the damage to zero to have no effects....

SRII page 131:
(about Spell Resistance Tests): "If the spell cast is a damaging
manipulation spell, then this is actually a Damage Resistance Test, as in
Ranged Combat (p.87).

"If the target generated more successes, the spell does not affect him."
(This is a general ruling, not specifically about combat spells.)

Grimoire II page 112:

"As with physical ranged combat, the successes generated by the castign
magician are compared to the successes generated by the target, and each
stages any net successes.
"Having determined the final Damage Level, the target resists the spell's
damage normally." (It goes on about about this, but that's mainly expanding
the basic principle.)

The conclusion I draw from this is that combat spells have no effect if
the target has more successes, whereas damaging manipulation spells do.

> Verdict?

Guilty :)

> BTW, this is really nice...I've spent 7 years with all these questions...now
> I have someplace to ask them!

That's what the list is for...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
eMpty TV
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:43:28 +0100
Glenn Royer said on 17:11/23 Jan 97...

> yes, well, any magician worth his salt should be able to kill
> most mundanes outright. still quite powerful.

I don't want to start another "mundanes are better" "no, magicians
are"
type thread, but any mundane worth his salt can just as easily kill a
magician outright. It all depends on the situation: concealed mundane
sniper against low-Body magician out in the open, or weak-Willpower
mundane in LOS of magician?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
eMpty TV
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:43:28 +0100
Brett Borger said on 19:32/23 Jan 97...

> ...so a Fireball will either hit them for at least serious damage, or do
> nothing at all?
> hmm....(Ditto with Powerbolt, Manabolt(my fav))...

That's it, yeah. If you want to do Moderate damage with a combat spell
(don't know why, maybe you want to keep the target alive), then don't use
Mana Bolt (just about everybody's favorite, BTW).

> ...looks like magic just got weaker over here....

Look at it like this: mundanes now get a bit more chance to survive
encounters with Mana Bolt-equipped magicians.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
eMpty TV
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 14
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:28:16 GMT
Brett Borger writes

> Okay, I'm enjoying having a group of knowledgable people to bounce questions
> off of.
Just pass on your comments when you know the answer.

>
> I saw someone post a few days back something to the effect of:
>
> "If they roll more successes in the Spell Resistance test than you made, a
> combat spell won't go off, but a manipulation spell will"
>
The caster rquires net success for combat spells to work, yes
official SR2.

However look at this with respect to what shielding does in 2nd ed
and note 'immunity to manabolts' power.

I therefore rule you have to stage them all the way down, having seen
willpowers over 20 on a few occasions (with low grade (<3 or so )
initiates only)

Mark
Message no. 15
From: Glenn Royer <cyberspunk@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:54:50 -0500
SH>Glenn Royer said on 17:11/23 Jan 97...

SH>> yes, well, any magician worth his salt should be able to kill
SH>> most mundanes outright. still quite powerful.

SH>I don't want to start another "mundanes are better" "no, magicians
are"
SH>type thread, but any mundane worth his salt can just as easily kill a
SH>magician outright. It all depends on the situation: concealed mundane
SH>sniper against low-Body magician out in the open, or weak-Willpower
SH>mundane in LOS of magician?

no no, wasn't trying to start any of that business. Ach! please
don't misunderstand me, or Sascha will send another 'feel bad now'
message!
I wasn't suggesting a versus match. I meant to say that a mana
bolt should be able to take care of most mundanes. It is easy to kill a
mundane with a mana bolt.
-Cyberspunk
Cat-Who-Bolts-Alone
SPACE COAST Online 407-773-1042 Telnet Spacecst.net WWW - http://Spacecst.net
Message no. 16
From: "V.A.L.I.S." <Campbellcc@***.HENDRIX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:57:34 +0100
>I therefore rule you have to stage them all the way down, having seen
>willpowers over 20 on a few occasions (with low grade (<3 or so )
>initiates only)

Willpowers of 20!!! excuse me, but what happened to the 1.5 racial limit.
(i.e. dwarves with with a beginning max of 7 raise to 10, or 11 _max_. Did
I miss something here???


Sincerely,

Courtney C. Campbell...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
* Courtney C. Campbell *
* Campbellcc@*****.hendrix.edu *
* Http://www.hendrix.edu/homes/stu/campbellcc/ *
* ____| *
* |_|__ "I am not mad. *
* | I am intrested in freedom." *
* -James Douglas Morrison *
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*
*"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai*
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matter is plastic in the face of mind
-Tractates Cryptica Scriptura
Phillip Kindred Dick/VALIS
Message no. 17
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:58:42 GMT
"V.A.L.I.S." writes

> >I therefore rule you have to stage them all the way down, having seen
> >willpowers over 20 on a few occasions (with low grade (<3 or so )
> >initiates only)
>
> Willpowers of 20!!! excuse me, but what happened to the 1.5 racial limit.
> (i.e. dwarves with with a beginning max of 7 raise to 10, or 11 _max_. Did
> I miss something here???
>
This is using shielding which adds to the resisting target number.
The actual natural attribute would be 6, plus (say 2 grade, 2 focus,
6 sorcery, 2 astral pool) is willpower 18. (yes willpower, but only
vs mana magic and only while the shield lasts) on this rating a
percepting grade 3 with sorcery, willpower 6 and a power foucs 2 can
reach 20, but has to save all his dice to defend himself to do it.

Mark

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Heck, I'm just a pain: Combat Spells, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!