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Message no. 1
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:34:56 -0700 (PDT)
Does anyone have a good system for figuring random
height & weight?

I've been using the old D&D, 2nd Ed system, but that
seems a little flawed.

Any ideas?

Thanks

-Scott



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Message no. 2
From: dghost@****.com (dghost@****.com)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 00:06:04 -0500
On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Scott Hiller
<scotthiller2002@*****.com> writes:
> Does anyone have a good system for figuring random
> height & weight?
>
> I've been using the old D&D, 2nd Ed system, but that
> seems a little flawed.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks
>
> -Scott

Off the top of my head, try 54" +4d6".
Min result is 4'10"
Max Result is 6'6"
Average 5'8"
add 1d6 and max result becomes 7'0", min becomes 4'11" average 5'11.5"

Whichever you prefer, it's quick and dirty and the multiple dice ensures
your heights will mostly fall in the average range (as it should be).

Weights: I generally use: .75* .00136 * .08897 *.08897 * ht (in inches)^3
* 48 (I think)
If you want random weights, how about let's see: replace .75 with (57 +
5d6)/100 -.05 for women; -.1 for elves; +.1 for dwarves and Orks; +.2 for
trolls.

Tell me how it works :) I'll have to search my files make sure that 48 is
supposed to be 48 ... might be 45 ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:39:52 +0200
According to Scott Hiller, on Friday 17 September 2004 01:34 the word on
the street was...

> Does anyone have a good system for figuring random
> height & weight?

Not really, but you could check out one of the issues of TSS that has the
height-and-weight calculations stuff.

One way to do it would be to roll 2D6 twice, subtracting your second roll
from the first, and changing the race's average height and weight by a
percentage equal to the result (best roll separately for height and
weight, I think). For example, an average ork is 1.90 m tall (says SRII).
So if your first 2D6 roll is 6 and the second is 10, you have an ork that
is 6 - 10 = -4% taller = 4% shorter than average, making him 1.90 x 0.96
=
1.82 m tall.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: crowley@*********.ch (Michael Schmidt)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:23:15 +0200
Scott Hiller wrote:
> Does anyone have a good system for figuring random
> height & weight?
>
> I've been using the old D&D, 2nd Ed system, but that
> seems a little flawed.
>
> Any ideas?

Well, that's easy...
Think up a random number, that easily fits in the normal ranges and put
them onto the char sheet.

Have you realized that the "Role" in RPG has nothing to do with dice. ;-)

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the traffic, you raise on this list,
but when I see the topics of your posting as complete picture, it could
be that you are a bit to focused on rolling dice.

SR is an SF RPG, but never the less it has to do with fantasy, or
creativity. I think Prime Directive for a GM is: Think something
reasonable up and do it. First comes the story, then realism, then
rules, then dice.

Hey, in the end it's all about fun, and that comes not from how we play
our games but from how you like to handle things.

PS: Gurths proposal seems ok, but from realism POV I would propose
java-pseudo-code:

height=round(average_height+(variance*gauss_random());

Well, not sure about the name of the random function but a look at the
API will help.
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:12:34 +0200
According to Michael Schmidt, on Friday 17 September 2004 15:23 the word on
the street was...

> Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the traffic, you raise on this list,
> but when I see the topics of your posting as complete picture, it could
> be that you are a bit to focused on rolling dice.

Well, if anything, Scott tends to be thorough :)

> SR is an SF RPG, but never the less it has to do with fantasy, or
> creativity. I think Prime Directive for a GM is: Think something
> reasonable up and do it. First comes the story, then realism, then
> rules, then dice.

If a game provides a method for determining something like height & weight,
whether it's a random method or some calculation based on stats, I tend to
use it. OTOH, for games that don't include this as part of the rules, I
don't normally see a need to introduce it, myself.

> PS: Gurths proposal seems ok, but from realism POV I would propose
> java-pseudo-code:
>
> height=round(average_height+(variance*gauss_random());

Doesn't that just add a percentage, not add or subtract it? What I
suggested would be more like (this in Python, BTW):

height = round(average_height + variance * random.random() - variance *
random.random())

which gives the advantage of being centered on the average height more
closely. Of course, this is also its drawback, and you'll get fewer people
deviate far from it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: crowley@*********.ch (Michael Schmidt)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:01:02 +0200
Gurth wrote:

>>PS: Gurths proposal seems ok, but from realism POV I would propose
>>java-pseudo-code:
>>
>>height=round(average_height+(variance*gauss_random());
>
> Doesn't that just add a percentage, not add or subtract it? What I
> suggested would be more like (this in Python, BTW):

gauss_random() gives you gauss distributed random numbers around 0. That
is positive and negative values.

> height = round(average_height + variance * random.random() - variance *
> random.random())
> which gives the advantage of being centered on the average height more
> closely. Of course, this is also its drawback, and you'll get fewer people
> deviate far from it.

Well, that's the way reality is like. The question is how to set
variance that the values are reasonable.

If I remember right your way is a quadratic distribution which would be
suitable for dice rolling:

average_height + variance*(2d6 -7)

But Gauss would be the more scientific approach.


... As I said, I'd prefer you solution because of simplicity. ;-)

--
This space is free. Good ideas for a sig are welcome.
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:12:07 +0200
According to Michael Schmidt, on Friday 17 September 2004 20:01 the word on
the street was...

> gauss_random() gives you gauss distributed random numbers around 0. That
> is positive and negative values.

OK, I've never looked at Java so I didn't know that :)

> Well, that's the way reality is like. The question is how to set
> variance that the values are reasonable.

Taking the easy solution would be to pluck a number out of the air that
looks good, which is exactly what I did. If you don't like the range 2D6
gives, use 3D6, or 1D6x5, or whatever :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: crowley@*********.ch (Michael Schmidt)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:53:16 +0200
Gurth wrote:

>According to Michael Schmidt, on Friday 17 September 2004 20:01 the word on
>the street was...
>
>
>
>>gauss_random() gives you gauss distributed random numbers around 0. That
>>is positive and negative values.
>>
>>
>
>OK, I've never looked at Java so I didn't know that :)
>
>
>
>>Well, that's the way reality is like. The question is how to set
>>variance that the values are reasonable.
>>
>>
>
>Taking the easy solution would be to pluck a number out of the air that
>looks good, which is exactly what I did. If you don't like the range 2D6
>gives, use 3D6, or 1D6x5, or whatever :)
>
>
1d6x5 does not work, as it's equally distributed, and 3d6 gives you a
much steeper curve.

--
This is free space. Good ideas for a sig are welcome.
Message no. 9
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:28:34 -0700 (PDT)
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:39:52, Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
wrote:
ÿ Not really, but you could check out one of the
ÿ > issues of TSS that has the height-and-weight
>calculations stuff.
>
> One way to do it would be to roll 2D6 twice,
>subtracting your second roll from the first, and
>changing the race's average height and weight by a
>percentage equal to the result (best roll separately
>for height and weight, I think). For example, an
>average ork is 1.90 m tall (says SRII). So if your
>first 2D6 roll is 6 and the second is 10, you have an
>ork that is 6 - 10 = -4% taller = 4% shorter than
>average, making him 1.90 x (-4%) = 1.82 m tall.

That sounds reasonable … would gender come in to play
as well? Women have a lower base weight in general,
though there are many women that are a good 80 pounds
heavier than I. What do you think would be a good
measure of that weight difference?

Also, women generally tend to be shorter than men, and
would have a shorter base height (again, this is not
always the case). What would be a good measure of that
height difference?

And there is the issue of the Body and Strength
Ratings. Would those factor into the height/weight of
a character?

Now, I also need to ask, what would be reasonable
heights and weights for children (per metatype) per
age group and per gender? I’ve puzzled over that, too.
I’d like to have some PC’s rescue some peoples’ kids
from (enter your favorite nefarious group or megacorp
here) and would like to accurately describe them, but
don’t know what the avg. heights/weights may be, much
less for each metatype.

Like, age 1, 2, 3, 4-5, 6-7, 8-10, 11, 12,13, 14,15,
16, 17, 18 … maybe each average weight/height of each
age group would be a percentage of the adult average
height/weight? But what would that percentage be?

Also, if a Player Character needed to pick up another
character and carry them, what would be the Target
Number based on weight and the carrying Character’s
Body or Strength Attribute?

Thanks,
Scott Hiller



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Message no. 10
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:48:39 -0700 (PDT)
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:23:15, Michael Schmidt
<crowley@*********.ch> wrote:

>Well, that's easy...
>Think up a random number, that easily fits in the
>normal ranges and put them onto the char sheet.
>
>Have you realized that the "Role" in RPG has nothing
>to do with dice. ;-)
>
>Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the traffic you
>raise on this list, but when I see the topics of your
>posting as complete picture, it could be that you are
>a bit to focused on rolling dice.
>
>SR is an SF RPG, but never the less it has to do with
>fantasy, or creativity. I think Prime Directive for a
>GM is: Think something reasonable up and do it. First
>comes the story, then realism, then rules, then dice.
>
>Hey, in the end it's all about fun, and that comes
>not from how we play our games but from how you like
>to handle things.
>
>PS: Gurth’s proposal seems ok, but from realism POV I
>would propose java-pseudo-code:
>
>height=round(average_height+(variance*gauss_random())>;
>
>Well, not sure about the name of the random function
>but a look at the API will help.

LOL! Yes. I am aware of the meaning of “Role” in RPG.
;-)

Don’t worry. No offense taken. I’m just trying to
generate some abstract ideas that we could use to roll
up some quick foundational attributes for the SR
environment that will work for any situation and won’t
bog down the game. The GM would need to do this kind
of stuff before the game, or he could do it on the
fly, like the stuff they have in the Mr. Johnson’s
Little Black Book.

It’s only a groundwork that the GM can use to build
upon with their own imagination. As always, the GM
doesn’t HAVE to roll dice to figure out height/weight,
etc. if they do not want to. But if they do, then this
might help.

I apologize, but I have no idea how to program in
java, how would the above string work? Variance tells
the program a variable is involved? What does
“gauss_random” mean? Should that read “guess_random”?
“average_height” sets the basis upon which to apply
the variable?

I assume the same string would apply to weight, too?

Where would you define the average height and the
average weight for the string? And you’d probably have
to set different deffinitions for each metatype,
right?

By the same token, would a C++ program work, too?

Thanks,
Scott Hiller




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Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:55:51 +0200
According to Michael Schmidt, on Friday 17 September 2004 20:53 the word on
the street was...

> 1d6x5 does not work, as it's equally distributed

If you add and subtract it, it automatically becomes centered on the
average value.

> and 3d6 gives you a much steeper curve.

True, but I don't really think that matters too much for establishing
height or weight.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:05:55 +0200
According to Scott Hiller, on Saturday 18 September 2004 07:28 the word on
the street was...

> That sounds reasonable … would gender come in to play
> as well?

Yes, but I just used the values from the SR1/II rulebook for the example so
I didn't feel like figuring that in :) The thing you need to decide if you
want to start with the "official" heights and weights is if they represent
the racial average for both men and women, or the average for men only. If
I look at the values, I suppose the latter, because if 1.90 m is the
average height for elves and orks in general then that would mean there
are plenty of male elves and orks of up to, say, 2.20 m tall. (OTOH, one
of the female players in my group is 1.80 m, so 1.90 m could well be
average of both men and women.)

> Women have a lower base weight in general,
> though there are many women that are a good 80 pounds
> heavier than I.

Don't mistake Americans for averagely-built people ;)

> What do you think would be a good
> measure of that weight difference?

I don't know. You'd have to do some research into the typical height and
weight difference between men and women, which must be on-line
_somewhere_...

> And there is the issue of the Body and Strength
> Ratings. Would those factor into the height/weight of
> a character?

Technically, yes -- if you want realism then (human) women should get
probably a -1 Strength modifier (women have about 20% less muscle tissue
than men, IIRC). I'm not sure about Body, though. However, if you apply a
modifier like this you'll probably get two reactions to it: 1) fewer
female characters due to the uncompensated modifier; 2) "That's sexist!"

> Now, I also need to ask, what would be reasonable
> heights and weights for children (per metatype) per
> age group and per gender? I’ve puzzled over that, too.

My advice: don't. As has been said before, just take whatever looks good.
If you want to trouble yourself with height and weight ranges for
children, you'll need to figure out attribute modifiers as well (after
all, nobody is born with Body 5 and Quickness 4).

> Also, if a Player Character needed to pick up another
> character and carry them, what would be the Target
> Number based on weight and the carrying Character’s
> Body or Strength Attribute?

Simply use the character's weight and the encumbrance rules from SR3.
Weight is whatever the player says the character weighs, plus the weight
of any equipment carried; if you want to prevent players cheating by
giving a low body weight because you ask about it at a time the character
must be carried somewhere, just make them write it on the character sheet
during character creation.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: crowley@*********.ch (Michael Schmidt)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:03:37 +0200
Scott Hiller wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:23:15, Michael Schmidt
><crowley@*********.ch> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Well, that's easy...
>>Think up a random number, that easily fits in the
>>normal ranges and put them onto the char sheet.
>>
>>Have you realized that the "Role" in RPG has nothing
>>to do with dice. ;-)
>>
>>Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the traffic you
>>raise on this list, but when I see the topics of your
>>posting as complete picture, it could be that you are
>>a bit to focused on rolling dice.
>>
>>SR is an SF RPG, but never the less it has to do with
>>fantasy, or creativity. I think Prime Directive for a
>>GM is: Think something reasonable up and do it. First
>>comes the story, then realism, then rules, then dice.
>>
>>Hey, in the end it's all about fun, and that comes
>>not from how we play our games but from how you like
>>to handle things.
>>
>>PS: Gurth’s proposal seems ok, but from realism POV I
>>would propose java-pseudo-code:
>>
>>height=round(average_height+(variance*gauss_random())>;
>>
>>Well, not sure about the name of the random function
>>but a look at the API will help.
>>
>>
>
>LOL! Yes. I am aware of the meaning of “Role” in RPG.
>;-)
>
>Don’t worry. No offense taken. I’m just trying to
>generate some abstract ideas that we could use to roll
>up some quick foundational attributes for the SR
>environment that will work for any situation and won’t
>bog down the game. The GM would need to do this kind
>of stuff before the game, or he could do it on the
>fly, like the stuff they have in the Mr. Johnson’s
>Little Black Book.
>
>It’s only a groundwork that the GM can use to build
>upon with their own imagination. As always, the GM
>doesn’t HAVE to roll dice to figure out height/weight,
>etc. if they do not want to. But if they do, then this
>might help.
>
>I apologize, but I have no idea how to program in
>java, how would the above string work? Variance tells
>the program a variable is involved? What does
>“gauss_random” mean? Should that read “guess_random”?
>“average_height” sets the basis upon which to apply
>the variable?
>
>
>

No, it's Gauss, from Carl Friedrich Gauss, mathematician and physicist.
The gauss distribution is a distribution that describes natural
distributions, which are centered around an average and a probability
which falls of exponentially to the limits. It is also called bell
curve, as it looks like the shape of a bell. The function for the center
at 0 and an f(0)=1 is f(x)=exp(-x*x), hack it into matlab or gnuplot to
seen how it looks like. And you have a variance of 1/2 which is half the
width of the curve, where the width is the delta x between the two
points where f(x) is fallen to exp(-1).

Normal random functions return values which have equal probability, but
in reality it is much more probable that you have people of average
height 1.80m (6ft) then having someone being 2.05m (6ft 10in) or 5ft 2in
(1.55 m).

If you'd like to know how gauss_random works, take a look at the
Numerical Recipes, a book about mathematical programming examples.

http://www.library.cornell.edu/nr/bookcpdf/c7-0.pdf
http://www.library.cornell.edu/nr/bookcpdf/c7-2.pdf

>I assume the same string would apply to weight, too?
>
>
Correct...

>Where would you define the average height and the
>average weight for the string? And you’d probably have
>to set different deffinitions for each metatype,
>right?
>
>By the same token, would a C++ program work, too?
>
>
Just took java, because I know that the gauss random exists there, in C++ it's not in the
standard library, so you'd have to implement the thing from the Numerical Recipes or find
a lib that provides such a function; at least under Linux this would only be a matter of
minutes.
If you really want, I could put up a JAVA program for that, but not this weekend, as I've
got to work both days and my girl friend has her birthday party this evening.

PS: Can anyone tell me where to find the stats for weight and height?

--
This is free space. Good ideas for a sig are welcome.
Message no. 14
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:14:01 +0200
According to Scott Hiller, on Saturday 18 September 2004 07:48 the word on
the street was...

> I apologize, but I have no idea how to program in
> java, how would the above string work? Variance tells
> the program a variable is involved?

"Variance" is the name of a variable that you set to determineby how much
the height or weight varies from the base.

> What does
> “gauss_random” mean? Should that read “guess_random”?

It's something that generates a random number; usually, random numbers on
computers are between 0.0 and 1.0 (with a lot more digits behind the .,
though) -- in game terms, think of it as a D100 / 100 or something. So,
whenever you have a program generate a random number, you need to multiply
it by the variance we talked about above to get a useful range. Thus, if
your variance is 20, and gauss_random() returns 0.267, your actual
variation is 20 x 0.267 = 5.34.

gauss_random(), as Michael explained, actually gives a random number
between -1.0 and 1.0, but is otherwise the same as above.

> “average_height” sets the basis upon which to apply
> the variable?

Yes.

> I assume the same string would apply to weight, too?

Naturally.

> Where would you define the average height and the
> average weight for the string? And you’d probably have
> to set different deffinitions for each metatype,
> right?

You just define all the variables beforehand, like in any program. In some
languages you don't need to define something that doesn't have a value, in
others you must specifically declare them first, but it's really all very
simple programming.

However, the reason for giving the line of code was to paraphrase the
previous paragraph in a single handy line that anyone with a bit of
programming experience will understand, not to make an actual program out
of it to calculate these things :)

> By the same token, would a C++ program work, too?

This is something you can do in _any_ programming language that can
generate random numbers: C++, Java, Pascal, BASIC, Python, whatever.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Als ik efficiënt wilde zijn dan nam ik om te beginnen niet eens
de moeite om vandaag aanwezig te zijn" --G. de Vader
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:20:46 +0200
According to Michael Schmidt, on Saturday 18 September 2004 11:03 the word
on the street was...

> PS: Can anyone tell me where to find the stats for weight and height?

If you mean racial average heights and weights, look at the race
descriptions in the SR1 and SRII main rulebooks: pages 23 to 29 of SR1 or
pages 34-38 of SRII.

--
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: crowley@*********.ch (Michael Schmidt)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:29:11 +0200
Michael Schmidt wrote:

Sorry for not removing unnecessary quote text here.

>>
>>
>> By the same token, would a C++ program work, too?
>>
>>
> Just took java, because I know that the gauss random exists there, in
> C++ it's not in the standard library, so you'd have to implement the
> thing from the Numerical Recipes or find a lib that provides such a
> function; at least under Linux this would only be a matter of minutes.
> If you really want, I could put up a JAVA program for that, but not
> this weekend, as I've got to work both days and my girl friend has her
> birthday party this evening.
>
> PS: Can anyone tell me where to find the stats for weight and height?

To partially answer my own question, the averages are given in SR3 p.47,
but there are no ranges or variances given, but I remember having it
seen anywhere. But where was it? Can anybody give me a hint?

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This is free space. Good ideas for a sig are welcome.
Message no. 17
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:13:46 -0700
What about the D20 h & w system?
--Anders
Message no. 18
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:57:36 +0000
On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 11:14:01AM +0200, Gurth wrote:
> > What does
> > “gauss_random” mean? Should that read “guess_random”?
>
> It's something that generates a random number; usually, random numbers on
> computers are between 0.0 and 1.0 (with a lot more digits behind the .,
> though) -- in game terms, think of it as a D100 / 100 or something. So,
> whenever you have a program generate a random number, you need to multiply
> it by the variance we talked about above to get a useful range. Thus, if
> your variance is 20, and gauss_random() returns 0.267, your actual
> variation is 20 x 0.267 = 5.34.
>
> gauss_random(), as Michael explained, actually gives a random number
> between -1.0 and 1.0, but is otherwise the same as above.
>

Ack! No it isn't!

I'm sort of amazed how few people on this list seem to know what a guassian is. If you've
done any kind of probability or statistics you should be familiar with guassians. They
pop up all over the place. It's the standard 'bell curve'.

gauss_random() should generate a number 'between' -infinity and infinity. In other words,
there are no bounds. This would of course be possible if the probability distribution was
evenly spread out, but of course the whole point is that it isn't. There is a definite
probability peak and then a squared exponential decay in either direction.

If you want to know what a guassian looks like then grab a graphing calculator or software
and plot e^(-x^2). That's a guassian centered at 0. The guassian can be modified by
adding something next to the x to change where it is centered or by putting a factor in
the exponential to change the width (this is directly related to the variance).

Anyway, the point is that the guassian distribution *is* what you want. When you take a
large enough sample of any random distribution you get a guassian. So the real
distribution of heights and weights for real people should fall on a gaussian. Of course,
as has been discussed guassians are difficult to generate with die rolls and most people
are interested in something faster and simpler. That's why all these other schemes are
invented. But they should be seen as what they are: attempts to approximate the guassian,
nothing more. Sometimes not even very good attempts.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org/
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:48:32 +0200
According to David Kettler, on Saturday 18 September 2004 21:57 the word on
the street was...

> I'm sort of amazed how few people on this list seem to know what a
> guassian is. If you've done any kind of probability or statistics you
> should be familiar with guassians.

I can't speak foranyone else, but that explains why I got it wrong... (Back
when I went to high school, there were two kinds of maths class you could
take; one was intended mostly for those who also took physics, chemistry,
etc. like I did, and the other at people doing economics and similar
subjects. The latter included statistics, the former didn't. Anyway...)

> gauss_random() should generate a number 'between' -infinity and
> infinity. In other words, there are no bounds. This would of course be
> possible if the probability distribution was evenly spread out, but of
> course the whole point is that it isn't. There is a definite
> probability peak and then a squared exponential decay in either
> direction.

So why multiply the outcome of the function by the height/weight variance?
That suggests to me its range is -1 to 1 -- if multiplying a number that
could be anywhere up to infinity, you might get characters with a height
of, say, -18531.92 meters...

--
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|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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|
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|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 20
From: jcotton1@*********.net (Joseph Cotton)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:46:50 -0400
> From: Scott Hiller

> Now, I also need to ask, what would be reasonable
> heights and weights for children (per metatype) per
> age group and per gender? I've puzzled over that, too.
> I'd like to have some PC's rescue some peoples' kids
> from (enter your favorite nefarious group or megacorp
> here) and would like to accurately describe them, but
> don't know what the avg. heights/weights may be, much
> less for each metatype.

If you're really interested in a more-or-less accurate set of values
for children, my suggestion is that you try to get your hands on a
copy of the height/weight by age tables used by pediatricians. I'm not
sure what they look like, but I know my son's doctor would always tell
us at his checkups "your son is in the xxth percentile for height and
the xxth percentile for weight", so I'm sure you could get the info
you wanted off of that. Then your only problem becomes one of
"adjusting" the values to fit the various metahuman races. For
example, orks are probably full-grown at, what, 14? -- in addition to
being taller and heavier on average; so you skip every other year or
something plus putting in a "fudge factor".

Joe Cotton
Message no. 21
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:54:05 +0000
On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 10:48:32AM +0200, Gurth wrote:
> According to David Kettler, on Saturday 18 September 2004 21:57 the word on
> the street was...
>
> > I'm sort of amazed how few people on this list seem to know what a
> > guassian is. If you've done any kind of probability or statistics you
> > should be familiar with guassians.
>
> I can't speak foranyone else, but that explains why I got it wrong... (Back
> when I went to high school, there were two kinds of maths class you could
> take; one was intended mostly for those who also took physics, chemistry,
> etc. like I did, and the other at people doing economics and similar
> subjects. The latter included statistics, the former didn't. Anyway...)
>

That's a shame. Let me tell you as a graduate student in physics that statistics are
highly relevant to the field ;)

> > gauss_random() should generate a number 'between' -infinity and
> > infinity. In other words, there are no bounds. This would of course be
> > possible if the probability distribution was evenly spread out, but of
> > course the whole point is that it isn't. There is a definite
> > probability peak and then a squared exponential decay in either
> > direction.
>
> So why multiply the outcome of the function by the height/weight variance?
> That suggests to me its range is -1 to 1 -- if multiplying a number that
> could be anywhere up to infinity, you might get characters with a height
> of, say, -18531.92 meters...
>

The variance changes the standard deviation of the guassian. So if you have a small
variance the results will all be crowded around the average but with a larger variance the
results will be more spread out.

As for getting a heihgt of -18531.92 meters, that might be theoretically possible but it's
*extraordinarily* improbable (well, at least given that your average and varaince are
correct ;). Don't forget that the guassian has the form e^(-x^2) so if x gets large or
small then that value gets small really friggin fast.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org/
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 22
From: crowley@*********.ch (Michael Schmidt)
Subject: Height & Weight
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:24:26 +0200
David Kettler wrote:

>On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 10:48:32AM +0200, Gurth wrote:
>
>
>>According to David Kettler, on Saturday 18 September 2004 21:57 the word on
>>the street was...
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'm sort of amazed how few people on this list seem to know what a
>>>guassian is. If you've done any kind of probability or statistics you
>>>should be familiar with guassians.
>>>
>>>
>>I can't speak foranyone else, but that explains why I got it wrong... (Back
>>when I went to high school, there were two kinds of maths class you could
>>take; one was intended mostly for those who also took physics, chemistry,
>>etc. like I did, and the other at people doing economics and similar
>>subjects. The latter included statistics, the former didn't. Anyway...)
>>
>>
>>
>
>That's a shame. Let me tell you as a graduate student in physics that statistics are
highly relevant to the field ;)
>
>
Hello, my brother in profession. ;-)

>>>gauss_random() should generate a number 'between' -infinity and
>>>infinity. In other words, there are no bounds. This would of course be
>>>possible if the probability distribution was evenly spread out, but of
>>>course the whole point is that it isn't. There is a definite
>>>probability peak and then a squared exponential decay in either
>>>direction.
>>>
>>>
>>So why multiply the outcome of the function by the height/weight variance?
>>That suggests to me its range is -1 to 1 -- if multiplying a number that
>>could be anywhere up to infinity, you might get characters with a height
>>of, say, -18531.92 meters...
>>
>>
>>
>
>The variance changes the standard deviation of the guassian. So if you have a small
variance the results will all be crowded around the average but with a larger variance the
results will be more spread out.
>
>As for getting a heihgt of -18531.92 meters, that might be theoretically possible but
it's *extraordinarily* improbable (well, at least given that your average and varaince are
correct ;). Don't forget that the guassian has the form e^(-x^2) so if x gets large or
small then that value gets small really friggin fast.
>
>
And another thing for the gauss_random function is the limited precision
of digital calculations. There are simply some values which limit the
results from this function, the same as you have a limit to the random
function.
The range of the normal random comes from normalization. You get an
integer between 0 and RAND_MAX which is 2^16-1 for 16 bit integers, and
this return value is divided by RAND_MAX.

On the other hand I found that it improves results a lot if you define
cut of values additionally.

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