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Message no. 1
From: William Monroe Ashe <wma6617@****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:04:51 -0500
I was watching "Roar" the other night (so far a slow starter, hopefully it
gets better) when the one roman bad guy is revealed to be the roman who
pierced the side of Christ and was turned into some immortal demon/nasty
thingy. Anyway, he is looking for the spear he used to do it, so he could
end his curse ... this got the old gears a grinding ...

I was thinking of having the runners eventually run into Martin DeVries
and find out that the he wants them to go get the spear from a coven of
vampires etc etc etc.

I was talking to Faux Pas the other night and he told me about the "Spear
of Destiny" from the comics. Are these two spears the same thing? Could
someone lay a little background on me about either of these, or some
books, graphic novels etc.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Bill
Message no. 2
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 01:16:37 -0400
> I was talking to Faux Pas the other night and he told me about the "Spear
> of Destiny" from the comics. Are these two spears the same thing? Could
> someone lay a little background on me about either of these, or some
> books, graphic novels etc.

AFAIK They are not.
TSoD is IIRC tied to Celtic Myth.
The spear that peirced Christ's side was called IIRC The Spear of
Longuinus?

Again, this is to the best of my knowledge.
I do like the whole setup for your plotline though!
DeVries is a very interesting character IMO, and he makes a great tool for
introducing PC's into vampires.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"FREE FRANCIS BEAN!"
Message no. 3
From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@**.NET>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:38:50 -0700
----------
> From: Steven A. Tinner <bluewizard@*****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
> Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 10:16 PM
>
> > I was talking to Faux Pas the other night and he told me about the
"Spear
> > of Destiny" from the comics. Are these two spears the same thing?
Could
> > someone lay a little background on me about either of these, or some
> > books, graphic novels etc.
>
> AFAIK They are not.
> TSoD is IIRC tied to Celtic Myth.
> The spear that peirced Christ's side was called IIRC The Spear of
> Longuinus?
>
> Again, this is to the best of my knowledge.
> I do like the whole setup for your plotline though!
> DeVries is a very interesting character IMO, and he makes a great tool
for
> introducing PC's into vampires.
>
> Steven A. Tinner
> bluewizard@*****.com
> http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
> "FREE FRANCIS BEAN!"

When the Romans (and others) brought Christianity to Ireland, a lot of
Christian ideas got mixed in with the Celtic myths. Both the Spear of
Destiny and the Holy Grail were originally Celtic, and had nothing to do
with Christ; but, eventually, the Christ-connection was added to those
myths.
The Spear that Longuinus[sp?] used to pierce Christ's side is, in fact,
the Spear of Destiny. Check out books on Celtic mythology for more on both
the Spear of Destiny and the Holy Grain (the pre-Christian versions, that
is.)

------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Stevens
harmonix@**.net

"If your god is so omnipotent,
why does he need my money?"
- Salmoneus
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:30:34 +0100
|
|I was watching "Roar" the other night (so far a slow starter, hopefully it

What's Roar?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: "Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:38:28 -0400
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Spike wrote:

->|
->|I was watching "Roar" the other night (so far a slow starter, hopefully it
->
->What's Roar?
->--
Ummmmm, I've only seen the pilot so far but it seems to be a quasi
historical television show about either Ireland or England during the
year 500 when the Romans invaded and the Celts who fought them. They
aren't doing much with historical acuracy on this one and the plot
seemed weak but it may get better.
Message no. 6
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:53:29 +0100
|
|On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Spike wrote:
|
|->|
|->|I was watching "Roar" the other night (so far a slow starter, hopefully
it
|->
|->What's Roar?
|->--
|Ummmmm, I've only seen the pilot so far but it seems to be a quasi
|historical television show about either Ireland or England during the
|year 500 when the Romans invaded and the Celts who fought them. They
|aren't doing much with historical acuracy on this one and the plot
|seemed weak but it may get better.
|

Historical accuracy means little to morons in TV land.
I mean AD 500? They'd been in Britain well over 400 years by that point...
If they already hadn't left...

(We had a comedy series called Chelmsford 123 a few years ago. At least they
got the year right....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: Swordman <swordman@******.NET>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:46:53 -0500
Spike wrote:
>
> |
> |I was watching "Roar" the other night (so far a slow starter, hopefully it
>
> What's Roar?
> --
It's a pretty good series on Fox about 5th century Irish Celts.
It's so good in fact it should last about half a seson before Fox
cancels it so it could be picked up by a another net work.
Message no. 8
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:42:42 -0400
At 01:30 PM 7/31/97 +0100, Spike wrote these timeless words:
>|
>|I was watching "Roar" the other night (so far a slow starter, hopefully it
>
>What's Roar?
>
Roar is a weak attempt at a fantasy show, IMNSHO it's basically
Hercules/Xena?Robin Hood without the humour. In other words, boring with
some really bad special effects and serious Historical Errors.

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 9
From: Nathan Ray <Gabrie6967@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:12:38 -0400
In a message dated 7/31/97 1:53:54 PM, you wrote:

>|Ummmmm, I've only seen the pilot so far but it seems to be a quasi
>|historical television show about either Ireland or England during the
>|year 500 when the Romans invaded and the Celts who fought them. They
>|aren't doing much with historical acuracy on this one and the plot
>|seemed weak but it may get better.
>|
>
>Historical accuracy means little to morons in TV land.
>I mean AD 500? They'd been in Britain well over 400 years by that point...
>If they already hadn't left...

Its Scotland... and fairly historically acurate... the Scots were always a
thorn in the side for ALL the conquerers... Haiden' (sp?) Wall was built by
the romans on the border of scotland,and as I remember, It took several
hundred years...
Message no. 10
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:30:32 +0100
|Its Scotland... and fairly historically acurate... the Scots were always a
|thorn in the side for ALL the conquerers... Haiden' (sp?)

Hadrien's wall.... (I think I've corrected the spelling correctly, it's
closer anyway....)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:08:39 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 11:03:52 EDT, you write:

>
> |I was watching "Roar" the other night (so far a slow starter, hopefully
it
>
> What's Roar?

Roar's a new show over in the US, fantasy type based on the struggles
between the Irish Celts and the Romans near the end of the Roman empire.
Historically, it's pretty accurate with some neat asides(the Centurion who
drove the spear into Christ's side as a 400 year old cursed mage is a pretty
neat concept), although a few Roman buffs who have seen it complain about the
Romans wearing iron armor - I guess they were still bronze at that point.

Wolfstar
Message no. 12
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:15:33 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 11:06:26 EDT, you write:

> Historical accuracy means little to morons in TV land.
> I mean AD 500? They'd been in Britain well over 400 years by that point...
> If they already hadn't left...

Actually, it's Ireland, which the Romans were very timid about dealing with,
and it's a little closer to 450 C.E. than 500. The Romans aren't "invading",
because they're already established well in England, and have a few footholds
in Ireland(though not many). The props are somewhat accurate(at least they
didn't give the main character an english longsword or something, the sword
looks like a celtic sword with a polished blade), and the plot is pretty
decent. Then again, I'm predisposed towards any show where my beliefs are
shared by the good guys. =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 13
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:33:28 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 15:14:10 EDT, you write:

> Its Scotland... and fairly historically acurate... the Scots were always a
> thorn in the side for ALL the conquerers... Haiden' (sp?) Wall was built
by
> the romans on the border of scotland,and as I remember, It took several
> hundred years...

As far as I was aware, it's set in Ireland, but either way the Romans didn't
fare well. Come to think of it, they probably would've been better off not
ever coming to Britain in the first place, but that's moot. And the wall was
Hadrian's Wall.

Wolfstar
PS: My reasoning behind it being Ireland is A)Few people acknowledge that the
celts were anything BUT Irish, and B) The type of music used for the show
sounds more Irish than Scottish - reminds me of Enya and Clannad.
Message no. 14
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:40:02 -0700
George Metz wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-07-31 15:14:10 EDT, you write:
>
> > Its Scotland... and fairly historically acurate... the Scots were

[snip]

> As far as I was aware, it's set in Ireland, but either way the Romans

[snip]

Who cares? It's a TV show, meant for entertainment, not education. If it
was meant to be educating, do you honestly think Fox would air it?
<grin> Didn't think so. ;)

And about the 5th Century, the Irish and the Scots weren't very defined
from the other, their languages had just (realitively speaking, of
course) barely drifted enough to become distinct from each other.

> PS: My reasoning behind it being Ireland is A)Few people acknowledge
> that the
> celts were anything BUT Irish,

Bah. The Celts are everywhere. The Celt of the Isles are the Welsh,
Cornish, Irish, Manx and Scottish. (apologies if I have forgotten one of
the isles Celtic groups) My definition of the Isles Celts is taken from
the languages of the Celtic group. As for the mainlander Celts, I
haven't the foggiest where or who they are...

(And yes, I put the Welsh at the first of the list for a reason. ;)

> and B) The type of music used for the
> show
> sounds more Irish than Scottish - reminds me of Enya and Clannad.

That's because the pipes used are Eileann Pipes. (spelling?) The modern
Irish pipes.

(And anyone don't even think of suggesting, 'but they aren't wearing
kilts, so they have to be Irish.' Cause that is just plain wrong. Clan
Kilts as we know them didn't come about until 16th-17th century)

As for the Spear of Destiny, I haven't been able to find many references
to it in my books. :/ Sounds like an interesting thing for Dunk to have
had in his Will. ;)

And where is Longinus, if he was never able to get the spear before
Dunkie got his claws on it? Hrmmm... Given how likely it would be that
Longinus could be an immortal human, we all know that makes him an IE,
who prolly wasn't aware that he was an IE. (And therefore believes that
the deed of blooding Christ cursed him to live forever. Gee. An IE with
severe brain problems. Much fun!) Hrm... But how to explain how his
repeated suicide attempts failed... Harly having a fun time? *shrug(

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
Message no. 15
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:10:17 -0700
> > PS: My reasoning behind it being Ireland is A)Few people acknowledge
> > that the
> > celts were anything BUT Irish,

> Bah. The Celts are everywhere. The Celt of the Isles are the Welsh,
> Cornish, Irish, Manx and Scottish. (apologies if I have forgotten one of
> the isles Celtic groups) My definition of the Isles Celts is taken from
> the languages of the Celtic group. As for the mainlander Celts, I
> haven't the foggiest where or who they are...

Leicester sometimes gets thrown into the Isle mix, but it shouldn't be.

Mainlander Celts can be found along the Spanish and French coasts:
Bretons and Basques
(I think), although their traits can be found all the way out to Asia.

> (And yes, I put the Welsh at the first of the list for a reason. ;)

And why do you think I mentioned Bretons?

> > and B) The type of music used for the
> > show
> > sounds more Irish than Scottish - reminds me of Enya and Clannad.

> That's because the pipes used are Eileann Pipes. (spelling?) The modern
> Irish pipes.

Uillean. Pronounced "ih-len".

> (And anyone don't even think of suggesting, 'but they aren't wearing
> kilts, so they have to be Irish.' Cause that is just plain wrong. Clan
> Kilts as we know them didn't come about until 16th-17th century)

At least someone knows history!
Message no. 16
From: Nathan Ray <Gabrie6967@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:30:20 -0400
In a message dated 8/1/97 4:21:44 AM, you wrote:

>>|I was watching "Roar" the other night (so far a slow starter, hopefully
it
>>
>>What's Roar?
>>
>Roar is a weak attempt at a fantasy show, IMNSHO it's basically
>Hercules/Xena?Robin Hood without the humour. In other words, boring with
>some really bad special effects and serious Historical Errors.

I've thought of it as a BAD cross between Robin hood and Star Wars (feel the
roar, luke) And its SO D*** PREDICTABLE!!!!
Message no. 17
From: "Joshua M. Kanapkey" <Wakabout@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:39:28 -0400
On 97-08-01, Dvixen wrote:
<<we all know that makes him an IE, who prolly wasn't aware that he was an
IE.>>
(regarding Longinus)

Pardon me if I sound _really_ stupid here, but what is an IE? Sorry, but I've
never heard that term before.

Adieu,
Gimli Gloinson, Dwarven Decker.
{{email: wakabout@***.com}}
Message no. 18
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:41:21 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-31 09:42:13 EDT, bluewizard@*****.COM (Steven A.
Tinner) writes:

>
> AFAIK They are not.
> TSoD is IIRC tied to Celtic Myth.
> The spear that peirced Christ's side was called IIRC The Spear of
> Longuinus?

That sounds right, though don't quote me on this. I don't believe the
spelling is right, but the phonetics are really close. The Spear of Destiny
is a plot device for the movie.

> Again, this is to the best of my knowledge.
> I do like the whole setup for your plotline though!
> DeVries is a very interesting character IMO, and he makes a great tool for
> introducing PC's into vampires.

ACK!!! Devries is a lunatic, but yeah he's a cool plot thing.
Message no. 19
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:21:55 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-01 19:35:03 EDT, you write:

> Who cares? It's a TV show, meant for entertainment, not education. If it
> was meant to be educating, do you honestly think Fox would air it?
> <grin> Didn't think so. ;)

But what about Alien Autopsy? That was educational(HA! =) )....

> And about the 5th Century, the Irish and the Scots weren't very defined
> from the other, their languages had just (realitively speaking, of
> course) barely drifted enough to become distinct from each other.

Depends solely on which scots yer talking about. The Horse Tribes were in
Scotland before the Celts ever crossed from the mainland, and they were QUITE
different. It's also where the Celtic Scots got their affinity for blue war
paint.

> > PS: My reasoning behind it being Ireland is A)Few people acknowledge
> > that the
> > celts were anything BUT Irish,
>
> Bah. The Celts are everywhere. The Celt of the Isles are the Welsh,
> Cornish, Irish, Manx and Scottish. (apologies if I have forgotten one of
> the isles Celtic groups) My definition of the Isles Celts is taken from
> the languages of the Celtic group. As for the mainlander Celts, I
> haven't the foggiest where or who they are...
> (And yes, I put the Welsh at the first of the list for a reason. ;)

Mainlanders came from who knows where, but they passed through Germany and
France before crossing to the Isles. And I HOPE you put the Welsh first
because we're the best ones! =) (Nah, I don't know my family history....)

> > and B) The type of music used for the
> > show
> > sounds more Irish than Scottish - reminds me of Enya and Clannad.
>
> That's because the pipes used are Eileann Pipes. (spelling?) The modern
> Irish pipes.
>
> (And anyone don't even think of suggesting, 'but they aren't wearing
> kilts, so they have to be Irish.' Cause that is just plain wrong. Clan
> Kilts as we know them didn't come about until 16th-17th century)

Thank you, I know my celtic histories... Besides, the Irish were known to
wear them too.

> As for the Spear of Destiny, I haven't been able to find many references
> to it in my books. :/ Sounds like an interesting thing for Dunk to have
> had in his Will. ;)

Hrrmmm, correlation between Excalibur and the Spear? Excalibur IS mentioned
in "Post Mortem"...

> And where is Longinus, if he was never able to get the spear before
> Dunkie got his claws on it? Hrmmm... Given how likely it would be that
> Longinus could be an immortal human, we all know that makes him an IE,
> who prolly wasn't aware that he was an IE. (And therefore believes that
> the deed of blooding Christ cursed him to live forever. Gee. An IE with
> severe brain problems. Much fun!) Hrm... But how to explain how his
> repeated suicide attempts failed... Harly having a fun time? *shrug(

This, of course, assumes you are disregarding the thought that maybe it
really IS why it happened. Gods have a tendency to get a trifle annoyed when
you run their son through with a spear you know....

Wolfstar
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:15:54 +0100
Joshua M. Kanapkey said on 17:39/ 1 Aug 97...

> Pardon me if I sound _really_ stupid here, but what is an IE? Sorry, but I've
> never heard that term before.

IE stands for Immortal Elf; they're also sometimes called EI for Elven
Illuminati.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zie, de pyromaan schijnt door de bomen.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 21
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 06:37:46 -0400
At 12:15 PM 8/2/97 +0100, Gurth wrote these timeless words:
>Joshua M. Kanapkey said on 17:39/ 1 Aug 97...
>
>> Pardon me if I sound _really_ stupid here, but what is an IE? Sorry, but
I've
>> never heard that term before.
>
>IE stands for Immortal Elf; they're also sometimes called EI for Elven
>Illuminati.
>
Of course, sometimes you'll hear it used, usually with numerous complaints
about Microsoft and it means Internet Explorer. but then, you SHOULD be
able to tell the difference between a discussion about annoying elves and a
discussion about web browsers... If not, I suggest you talk to Dr.
Hernandez. i think Pete can supply that addy...

<grin>

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 22
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:44:29 +0100
|
|On 97-08-01, Dvixen wrote:
|<<we all know that makes him an IE, who prolly wasn't aware that he was an
|IE.>>
|(regarding Longinus)
|
|Pardon me if I sound _really_ stupid here, but what is an IE? Sorry, but I've
|never heard that term before.

Immortal Elf. Something that people on this list HATE in Shadowrun...

Ehran and Harlequin are the most... "Famous"

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 20:30:28 +0200
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:30:32 +0100, Spike wrote:

>|Its Scotland... and fairly historically acurate... the Scots were always a
>|thorn in the side for ALL the conquerers... Haiden' (sp?)
>
>Hadrien's wall.... (I think I've corrected the spelling correctly, it's
>closer anyway....)

Ain't it Hadrian's Wall? At least in my history books he's spellt with
"a"s, but this might be latin or german, perhaps in english it's an
"e"
... who knows?


--
Arno
*********************************************************************
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Message no. 24
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:59:45 EDT
On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:21:55 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:

<snip>
> Hrrmmm, correlation between Excalibur and the Spear? Excalibur IS
>mentioned
>in "Post Mortem"...


Nope. The sword Excalibur is/was Arthur's sword. Now, the names and
stories of all involved have been greatly warped (in large part by the
French court), Excalibur being Arthur's sword's name after being
mutilated by translation into French and from French into, I think, a
couple of other languages before finally returning to English. IIRC, the
original name didn't look particularly close to Excalibur. And, according
to Harley, Excalibur doesn't actually exist (although, he may have been
Richard the Lion-Hearted, an idea I despise greatly:(



>This, of course, assumes you are disregarding the thought that maybe
>it
>really IS why it happened. Gods have a tendency to get a trifle
>annoyed when
>you run their son through with a spear you know....


You're ignoring a few things: Shadowrun is taken from as close to neutral
as you can get in regards to theism, Longinus being cursed by God would
require a definite statement on the being of SR's (and, by extension,
ED's) universe. God is a forgiving god. I seriously doubt He would curse
Longinus in this way, He has great mercy, and it would be more merciful
to simply slay the man. Also, what happened, had to happen. It was
prophesied by Him and through His prophets, while Longinus is fully
responsible for his actions in one light, in another he could be
considered as predestined (note: predestination doesn't really jive with
Biblical teachings). The only reasons that Longinus might be cursed in
such way would be to bear witness to the power of God (in which case,
Longinus couldn't die by means of the Spear anyway) and/or that he might
be given the chance for redemption (and once he finds this, he might be
allowed to die). Could also go for the angle of the character of Simeon,
who was promised that he would live to see the birth of Christ (Simeon
isn't actually mentioned in the Bible that I recall, but my Bible study's
a bit rusty, so I could be wrong. I think he's a character from
tradition, like the names of the Magi or Michael the Archangel).

In Shadowrun's world (where it would seem that the idea of God is left
almost wide open), it is far more likely that Longinus is some sort of
Immortal who doesn't realize his predicament, maybe even a freebie
created when the real Longinus died.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 25
From: Swordman <swordman@******.NET>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:40:01 -0500
George Metz wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-07-31 15:14:10 EDT, you write:
>
> > Its Scotland... and fairly historically acurate... the Scots were always a
> > thorn in the side for ALL the conquerers... Haiden' (sp?) Wall was built
> by
> > the romans on the border of scotland,and as I remember, It took several
> > hundred years...
>
> As far as I was aware, it's set in Ireland, but either way the Romans didn't
> fare well. Come to think of it, they probably would've been better off not
> ever coming to Britain in the first place, but that's moot. And the wall was
> Hadrian's Wall.
>
> Wolfstar
> PS: My reasoning behind it being Ireland is A)Few people acknowledge that the
> celts were anything BUT Irish, and B) The type of music used for the show
> sounds more Irish than Scottish - reminds me of Enya and Clannad.

A friend of mine and I were having this same argument, and he was
convinced it was Scotish, I was saying it's Celt.
He later says he saw a map and it's covering both Scotland and Ireland.
Message no. 26
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:16:30 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-03 01:04:05 EDT, you write:

> Nope. The sword Excalibur is/was Arthur's sword. Now, the names and
> stories of all involved have been greatly warped (in large part by the
> French court), Excalibur being Arthur's sword's name after being
> mutilated by translation into French and from French into, I think, a
> couple of other languages before finally returning to English. IIRC, the
> original name didn't look particularly close to Excalibur. And, according
> to Harley, Excalibur doesn't actually exist (although, he may have been
> Richard the Lion-Hearted, an idea I despise greatly:(

I'm sorry, the idea you have dialed is not connected. Harlequin is not
Richard. Not happening, and if it's ever made canon, I'll ignore it.

> >This, of course, assumes you are disregarding the thought that maybe it
> >really IS why it happened. Gods have a tendency to get a trifle annoyed
when
> >you run their son through with a spear you know....

> You're ignoring a few things: Shadowrun is taken from as close to neutral
> as you can get in regards to theism, Longinus being cursed by God would
> require a definite statement on the being of SR's (and, by extension,
> ED's) universe.

Understandable. Of course, you could go the other way and say that if the
legends of all the other gods are based on the tales of Immortal Elves, why
not the judeo-christian god?(I forgot where I heard the bit about gods and
IEs, I'll try and find it.) But I'll get to that in a minute.

<Snipped a lot of theological discussion>

Canthros, I think we better discuss some of this in private, otherwise the
result might make that OS discussion look like a picnic. It'll also give me
time to relax and not react improperly. =)

> In Shadowrun's world (where it would seem that the idea of God is left
> almost wide open), it is far more likely that Longinus is some sort of
> Immortal who doesn't realize his predicament, maybe even a freebie
> created when the real Longinus died.

I suppose that could work, either that or an IE pulled it off through
spells, but I doubt it.

Wolfstar
Message no. 27
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:32:14 +0100
|
|In a message dated 97-08-03 01:04:05 EDT, you write:
|
|> Nope. The sword Excalibur is/was Arthur's sword. Now, the names and
|> stories of all involved have been greatly warped (in large part by the
|> French court), Excalibur being Arthur's sword's name after being
|> mutilated by translation into French and from French into, I think, a
|> couple of other languages before finally returning to English. IIRC, the
|> original name didn't look particularly close to Excalibur. And, according
|> to Harley, Excalibur doesn't actually exist (although, he may have been
|> Richard the Lion-Hearted, an idea I despise greatly:(
|
|I'm sorry, the idea you have dialed is not connected. Harlequin is not
|Richard. Not happening, and if it's ever made canon, I'll ignore it.

Besides which, what the hell does Richard the Lionheart have to do with
Excalibur? Apart from nothing at all?

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 28
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 21:02:12 EDT
On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:16:30 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:


>I'm sorry, the idea you have dialed is not connected. Harlequin is not
>Richard. Not happening, and if it's ever made canon, I'll ignore it.


Have your read "Post Mortum" by Tom Dowd? If not, hit the FASA web site
and hunt it up, because that's the story I'm referencing here. And no, I
absolutely despise the idea, mainly on the basis that I can't see
rewriting history to suit the IE. I could live with Harley going on the
Crusades, or with the IE posing as nobles, but making them into
characters central to Western history? Nope, not in my book.


<<Understandable. Of course, you could go the other way and say that if
the legends of all the other gods are based on the tales of Immortal
Elves, why not the judeo-christian god?(I forgot where I heard the bit
about gods and IEs, I'll try and find it.) But I'll get to that in a
minute.>>


Mainly because the Judeo-Christian God would have to be a conglomeration
of all the IE's Passions, plus He's perfect, and man can't conceive
something greater than himself (try it sometime, try to truly create
something greater than yourself without something else to base it on. It
doesn't work. God is either the One, True God, or He's based off another,
virtually identical god or gods. Since these would still be greater than
man is...)


<<Canthros, I think we better discuss some of this in private, otherwise
the result might make that OS discussion look like a picnic. It'll also
give me time to relax and not react improperly. =)>>


:) Sorry, it's a bad habit of mine. I think I started the last religion
thread on the list, too.


<<I suppose that could work, either that or an IE pulled it off through
spells, but I doubt it.>>


An IE with amnesia, who has convinced himself that he's Longinus, the man
who killed the Son of God. He's got various spells which replicate
certain critter abilities quickened on him (Immunity to Normal Weapons,
that type of thing), but Masked into his aura so they can't be attacked
or detected. Or maybe he's simply a freebie, who's convinced himself of
the same thing. Perhaps the spirit identified so strongly with Longinus
that it took on his identity.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 29
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 22:29:07 EDT
On Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:32:14 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:

>|> to Harley, Excalibur doesn't actually exist (although, he may have
>been
>|> Richard the Lion-Hearted, an idea I despise greatly:(
>|
>|I'm sorry, the idea you have dialed is not connected. Harlequin is
>not
>|Richard. Not happening, and if it's ever made canon, I'll ignore it.
>
>Besides which, what the hell does Richard the Lionheart have to do
>with
>Excalibur? Apart from nothing at all?


Ummm...nothing at all? Oh, you said _aside_ from that. Hmm...they were
both British (sort of:) Arthur and Richard were both kings (again, sort
of:) <shrug> Probably not a thing, but you'll have to ask Mr. Dowd or Mr.
Kenson. And, I think the IEs have missed something: Excalibur and Arthur
_did_ exist, just not quite like they're portrayed in popular fiction;)
Btw, my info on the historical Arthur comes from the February 1996 (okay,
so it wasn't two or three years ago *sigh* I hate when I'm wrong:( issue
of the Smithsonian magazine, it was an interesting article as I recall.
Unfortunately, they don't have the text of the article on their web site,
it's new enough that they want you to buy the back issue:(


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 30
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:50:52 +0000
> >Besides which, what the hell does Richard the Lionheart have to do
> >with
> >Excalibur? Apart from nothing at all?
>
>
> Ummm...nothing at all? Oh, you said _aside_ from that. Hmm...they were
> both British (sort of:) Arthur and Richard were both kings (again, sort
> of:) <shrug> Probably not a thing, but you'll have to ask Mr. Dowd or Mr.
> Kenson. And, I think the IEs have missed something: Excalibur and Arthur
> _did_ exist, just not quite like they're portrayed in popular fiction;)
> Btw, my info on the historical Arthur comes from the February 1996 (okay,
> so it wasn't two or three years ago *sigh* I hate when I'm wrong:( issue
> of the Smithsonian magazine, it was an interesting article as I recall.
> Unfortunately, they don't have the text of the article on their web site,
> it's new enough that they want you to buy the back issue:(

BTW, one theory is that Lancelot DuLac was actually a roman of some
rank. (AFAIK it's a mangling of a roman name.).




--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 31
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:08:54 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-04 21:26:15 EDT, you write:

> Have your read "Post Mortum" by Tom Dowd? If not, hit the FASA web site
> and hunt it up, because that's the story I'm referencing here. And no, I
> absolutely despise the idea, mainly on the basis that I can't see
> rewriting history to suit the IE. I could live with Harley going on the
> Crusades, or with the IE posing as nobles, but making them into
> characters central to Western history? Nope, not in my book.

Uhhh, waitasec. The only suggestion I saw was that Harley might have been
Arthur. Which I'm not too hot on either, but I can see him as Merlin, which
is another variation.

> <<Canthros, I think we better discuss some of this in private, otherwise
> the result might make that OS discussion look like a picnic. It'll also
> give me time to relax and not react improperly. =)>>
>
>
> :) Sorry, it's a bad habit of mine. I think I started the last religion
> thread on the list, too.

No apology necessary, I do the same thing. That's why I suggested private.
=)

> <<I suppose that could work, either that or an IE pulled it off through
> spells, but I doubt it.>>

> An IE with amnesia, who has convinced himself that he's Longinus, the man
> who killed the Son of God. He's got various spells which replicate
> certain critter abilities quickened on him (Immunity to Normal Weapons,
> that type of thing), but Masked into his aura so they can't be attacked
> or detected. Or maybe he's simply a freebie, who's convinced himself of
> the same thing. Perhaps the spirit identified so strongly with Longinus
> that it took on his identity.

I think I like the free spirit idea best of all. Possibility of someone
dying and becoming a free spirit? that would make his identity reasonable -
as well as create dozens of possibilities for recent events....

Wolfstar
Message no. 32
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:15:06 EDT
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:08:54 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:

<<Uhhh, waitasec. The only suggestion I saw was that Harley might have
been Arthur. Which I'm not too hot on either, but I can see him as
Merlin, which is another variation.>>


Actually, the impression I got (from the comment about the armor still
fitting) was that Harley was Richard, I can live with Harley being
Merlin, however. At least Merlin sort of matches up in my mind. Not that
I like either idea all that much.



<<I think I like the free spirit idea best of all. Possibility of someone
dying and becoming a free spirit? that would make his identity reasonable
- as well as create dozens of possibilities for recent events....>>


I dunno, I'm not real good at twisting things around on my players.
Better ask someone else.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 33
From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@**.NET>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:07:24 -0700
----------
> From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
> Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 12:15 PM
>
> Actually, the impression I got (from the comment about the armor still
> fitting) was that Harley was Richard, I can live with Harley being
> Merlin, however. At least Merlin sort of matches up in my mind. Not that
> I like either idea all that much.
>

Where's the connection between the "armor" and Richard the Lion Hearted?
I've read that story twice now, and while it is certain that Harlequin was
someone historical, they aren't clear who.

------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Stevens
harmonix@**.net

"If your god is so omnipotent,
why does he need my money?"
- Salmoneus
------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:22:59 EDT
On Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:07:24 -0700 Chuck Stevens <harmonix@**.NET> writes:

> Where's the connection between the "armor" and Richard the
>Lion Hearted?
>I've read that story twice now, and while it is certain that Harlequin
>was
>someone historical, they aren't clear who.


Harlequinn (aka 'The Last Knight of the Crying Spire') was bequeathed the
sword Excalibre and a suit of Richard the Lion-hearted's armor. Since
Post-Mortem involved discussion about the sword, one assumes that the
armor they (Ehran and Harley) referred to was the Armor of Richard the
Lion-hearted. And with the comment 'still fits', it is implied that
Harley has always owned it, and would thus be Richard. Ehran and Harley
also make comments on the sword, which could imply that one or both were
involved in Arthur's court, perhaps Ehran was Merlin, and/or Harley was,
say, Lancelot? Doubtful on both counts (and it wouldn't happen in my
game:), but still possible (as long as one of the IE wasn't Arthur!)


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 35
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:20:09 -0400
On Friday, August 08, 1997 11:22, John E Pederson[SMTP:lobo1@****.COM]
wrote:
> Harlequinn (aka 'The Last Knight of the Crying Spire') was bequeathed the
> sword Excalibre and a suit of Richard the Lion-hearted's armor. Since
> Post-Mortem involved discussion about the sword, one assumes that the
> armor they (Ehran and Harley) referred to was the Armor of Richard the
> Lion-hearted. And with the comment 'still fits', it is implied that
> Harley has always owned it, and would thus be Richard. Ehran and Harley
> also make comments on the sword, which could imply that one or both were
> involved in Arthur's court, perhaps Ehran was Merlin, and/or Harley was,
> say, Lancelot? Doubtful on both counts (and it wouldn't happen in my
> game:), but still possible (as long as one of the IE wasn't Arthur!)

After re-reading the passage in question, quoted below, I don't believe
that Harlequin has 'always' owned the literal suit of armor. Rather, his
statement is analogous to him saying it it time to don his shining armor so
he can go rescue the maiden, and that *mindset* still fits.

<extract>
"Getting back to the dragon: Have you found Excalibur yet?" he continues.

Snorting, the ork turns back toward him. "You know better than I that there
ain't no such thing."

"Literally, no. But as the years pass such literalness becomes less and
less relevant. And we both know what he truly meant."

The ork nods again. "The armor still fits."
</extract>

The last two paragraphs are the important ones.

Harlequin still has the mindset of a Crusader, is what this passage seems
to say(IMHO.)

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 36
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:48 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-08 11:58:45 EDT, you write:

> Harlequinn (aka 'The Last Knight of the Crying Spire') was bequeathed the
> sword Excalibre and a suit of Richard the Lion-hearted's armor. Since
> Post-Mortem involved discussion about the sword, one assumes that the
> armor they (Ehran and Harley) referred to was the Armor of Richard the
> Lion-hearted. And with the comment 'still fits', it is implied that
> Harley has always owned it, and would thus be Richard. Ehran and Harley
> also make comments on the sword, which could imply that one or both were
> involved in Arthur's court, perhaps Ehran was Merlin, and/or Harley was,
> say, Lancelot? Doubtful on both counts (and it wouldn't happen in my
> game:), but still possible (as long as one of the IE wasn't Arthur!)
>

Here's a better question: Why would Dunkelzahn have Excalibur and Richard's
Armor?
Could this mean that possibly Dunkelzahn was Merlin? Would make some sense
regarding the stories of Merlin trapped beneath the Earth for all time....
But where's the connection to Richard?

Wolfstar
Message no. 37
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:02:04 EDT
On Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:19:48 -0400 George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM> writes:


<<Here's a better question: Why would Dunkelzahn have Excalibur and
Richard's Armor?>>


The answer: He didn't. He admitted that Excalibur was not actually in his
possession, that he didn't own the armor doesn't surprise me, either. It
wouldn't be the only thing in his will that wasn't exactly his to give
(for instance: Lars J. Matthews [there's a guy in some deep sh!t])


<<Could this mean that possibly Dunkelzahn was Merlin?>>


Doubtful. As much as I hate to say it, the comments between H and
Wordsmyth in Post Mortem have me thinking that Ehran could be (gah!)


<<Would make some sense regarding the stories of Merlin trapped beneath
the Earth for all time....
But where's the connection to Richard?>>


That, I should think, was fairly well spelled out in the will. Harley
must lead the 'next crusade', Richard's armor serves as a reminder to him
of this duty (and of who he once was, one could surmise).


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 38
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 04:11:44 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-09 01:14:10 EDT, you write:

> That, I should think, was fairly well spelled out in the will. Harley
> must lead the 'next crusade', Richard's armor serves as a reminder to him
> of this duty (and of who he once was, one could surmise).

Don't have the will, I'm not allowed to read it. Don't ask me why, my GM's
told me half the stuff that's in the fraggin' thing, but he doesn't want me
reading it. Which, incidentally, disturbs me greatly.

BTW, while I'm sort of on the subject, there's something in Super Tuesday
involving magicians in the Matrix. Supposedly nothing concrete, but it's
there.

Wolfstar
Message no. 39
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 12:19:53 +0100
John E Pederson said on 22:02/ 8 Aug 97...

> That, I should think, was fairly well spelled out in the will. Harley
> must lead the 'next crusade', Richard's armor serves as a reminder to him
> of this duty (and of who he once was, one could surmise).

So how much would actually be left of the armor? This was waht, the 12th
century? Knights were dressed, for the most part, in chain mail at that
time, with some additional plates and a full helmet, but that's about it.

Nearly all the armors we tend to think of as "knights' armor" date from
the 15th century and later, when full plate was in fashion.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 40
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 21:00:36 +1000
> > That, I should think, was fairly well spelled out in the will. Harley
> > must lead the 'next crusade', Richard's armor serves as a reminder to him
> > of this duty (and of who he once was, one could surmise).
>
> So how much would actually be left of the armor? This was waht, the 12th
> century? Knights were dressed, for the most part, in chain mail at that
> time, with some additional plates and a full helmet, but that's about it.

Tamino? I think this is your cue for some details; all I can remember
(me being a non-combatant and all) is a primarily chain suit (incl. coif
and mittens, I think). Don't know about chausses; they may be authentic
for the period or up to 100 years later.

All in all though, yup: chainmail. :)

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 41
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:48:19 -0400
On Saturday, August 09, 1997 07:19, Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
> John E Pederson said on 22:02/ 8 Aug 97...
>
> > That, I should think, was fairly well spelled out in the will. Harley
> > must lead the 'next crusade', Richard's armor serves as a reminder to
him
> > of this duty (and of who he once was, one could surmise).
>
> So how much would actually be left of the armor? This was waht, the 12th
> century? Knights were dressed, for the most part, in chain mail at that
> time, with some additional plates and a full helmet, but that's about it.
>
> Nearly all the armors we tend to think of as "knights' armor" date from
> the 15th century and later, when full plate was in fashion.
>

Exactly. The bit in the will was a reminder to Harlequin that a knight in
shining armor was needed again, not meant to be taken literally.
(Especially considering the historical Richard; a man who spent ~six months
of his adult life in England, who couldn't even speak english, and would
probably have been a much *worse* king than John.)

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 42
From: "SHANE J. WINZAR" <s702399@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: help needed on researching campaign ideas.
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:53:03 +1000
On Sat, 9 Aug 1997, Lady Jestyr wrote:

> > > That, I should think, was fairly well spelled out in the will. Harley
> > > must lead the 'next crusade', Richard's armor serves as a reminder to him
> > > of this duty (and of who he once was, one could surmise).
> >
> > So how much would actually be left of the armor? This was waht, the 12th
> > century? Knights were dressed, for the most part, in chain mail at that
> > time, with some additional plates and a full helmet, but that's about it.
>
> Tamino? I think this is your cue for some details; all I can remember
> (me being a non-combatant and all) is a primarily chain suit (incl. coif
> and mittens, I think). Don't know about chausses; they may be authentic
> for the period or up to 100 years later.
>
> All in all though, yup: chainmail. :)
>

The armour of the European knight in the time period of Richard
Lion-heart consisted of a chain mail hauberk which dropped to the
knees with long sleeves. This was worn over a gambeson (sp?) -a
large quilted shirt basically. A large percent of the
documentation for that period suggests that chausses -chainmail
leggings were a nessessary fashion item ;) but not all knights wore
them. Depending again on the documentation there were several types
of helms worn, I have seen pictures of Richard wearing a full (great)
helm or a Nasal helm (dome with protruding nasal bar)

Chainmail needs a fair amount of upkeep so unless Richards armour
was preserved magically or looked after constantly with more mundane
means :) it would have gone the way of all steel items from that
period and rusted up...

Please bear in mind this is from memory as I don't have my
documentation folder with me so if I'm wrong on some points
forgive me :)

Regards Tamino...rather new to this list

---------------------------------------------------------------
Tamino aka Shane Winzar : Student of Information Technology
s702399@*****.student.gu.edu.au or swinzar@*****.cit.gu.edu.au
"You can't kill me, I'm a Great God!"-Zorg the Great God in the
form of a small turtle confronting the 7' high Angel of Death.
---------------------------------------------------------------

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