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Message no. 1
From: Reika <ladyreika@*********.COM>
Subject: help with physical mages
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:25:22 -0500
I have a question about the enchanting skill for phys mages, my
char has astral perception so she can cast spells and do other
mage-type stuff. Can she use the full enchanting skill, or can
she just use the talismongering concentration to make fetishes?
And yes we're still using the SRII rules in my group.


Thanks in advance.

Reika
Message no. 2
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 21:41:30 +0100
And so it came to happen that Reika wrote:

> I have a question about the enchanting skill for phys mages, my
> char has astral perception so she can cast spells and do other
> mage-type stuff. Can she use the full enchanting skill, or can
> she just use the talismongering concentration to make fetishes?
> And yes we're still using the SRII rules in my group.

Hm, If you've got an aspected magician (Sorcery Adept in SR2nd. would be apropriate
here, I think, don't have the english version, sorry) than I think you just can use
and learn the Skill Talismongery. "Real" enchanting would need under SR2nd.
rules a
specialised Adept, the Enchanting Adept I think would be the name of it. Rules for
this are covered in the Grimoire (no page reference, the german edition differs
wildly with pages and quotes).
Hm, letme see, there are under SR2nd. the following Adepts:

Magic Adept : Divided into two aspects, Sorcerer and Conjurer. Both lack
the ability of astral perception and astral projection. Both are able to just
use sorcery (Sorceres you guess;o) or conjuring (Yep, right. Those are
the Conjurers.)

Shamanistic Adept: Those are able to both Astral Perception and Projecting. But
they are limited in just beeing allowed to use spell that are conform with their
Totem. Same aplies with the spirits they conjure.

Elemental Adept : Those have the same limits and alowances as the above
mentioned shamanistic Adept, they just have to choose one way of the hermetic
tradition, Earth, Air, Water, Fire.

Physical Adepts : Well these don't count for you here ;o)

Enchanting Adept : Before anyone lets the BBB! (Big Bad BOH!) fly, yes, it is
not exactly written (that is in the german version). But under the section
"Enchanting" it states that (roughly translated from german) "Even
mundanes can
use the Skill Talismongering, but just fully learned Sorcerer or Enchanter
(Enchanting Adepts) can actually use the skills Alchemy and Artefacts (B/R)".

So your Char. can definetly use Talismongery, but no other enchanting skill under
SR2nd.
A bit long, but maybe it helps.

> Thanks in advance.

Allways helpfull, always smile.

--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Message no. 3
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:04:11 -0600
> > I have a question about the enchanting skill for phys mages, my
> > char has astral perception so she can cast spells and do other
> > mage-type stuff. Can she use the full enchanting skill, or can
> > she just use the talismongering concentration to make fetishes?
> > And yes we're still using the SRII rules in my group.
>
> Hm, If you've got an aspected magician

Um...he's talking about the physical mage in "Awakenings". They're a
(potentially) munchkinous combination of a physical adept, and a mage.
Anyway, you're just wasting your time, because 'aspected magician' is a term
from SR3. (And he said he was using SR2...but I can see how someone might
get confused easily).

To answer the original question, read p 119 of Awakendings, column 1, last
paragraph. "...must allocate at least 1 point to his Magic Attribute Rating
for using magical skills (Sorcery, Conjuring and Enchanting)."

Pretty simple. You have a point of magic...you can use it like a regular
mage. (Except for the fact that you can never project).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 4
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:05:19 -0600
> char has astral perception so she can cast spells and do other

Ack! I meant "he" in the gender neutral sense. Sorry!



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 5
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 00:44:04 +0100
And so it came to happen that XaOs [David Goth] wrote in reply to Steadfast:

<snip>
> > Hm, If you've got an aspected magician
>
> Um...he's talking about the physical mage in "Awakenings". They're a
> (potentially) munchkinous combination of a physical adept, and a mage.
> Anyway, you're just wasting your time, because 'aspected magician' is a term
> from SR3. (And he said he was using SR2...but I can see how someone might
> get confused easily).

Well, I actually had stated that (see the abravations, I , sadly, use them a lot)
"aspected magician _(Sorcery Adept in SR2nd. would be apropriate...)_ ".
So I think had not made myself clear, sorry to that, but english is not my mother
tongue. But I realy thought that the folowing text should made clear that I was
referring to SR2nd. not SR3rd. Perhaps you are right, one can get confused quite
easily, I'll try harder ;o)

> To answer the original question, read p 119 of Awakendings, column 1, last
> paragraph. "...must allocate at least 1 point to his Magic Attribute Rating
> for using magical skills (Sorcery, Conjuring and Enchanting)."
>
> Pretty simple. You have a point of magic...you can use it like a regular
> mage. (Except for the fact that you can never project).

Uh, now I remember. So it was pointless anyway. I do remeber that section, having
both a full Mage and a Physad. Were is this old book, Awekenings (searches shelfs)?
Uhm, not here atm. Annyway...
Under SR3rd. Rules this would be quite interesting. Starting Characters would take
just one point as Physad, and the other as Magician. Than during Gameplay they spend
those 20 Karma and get another Point for the Physad in them.
But does the restriction on 'ratings don't higher than Magicattribute' contribute to
the complete Magicrating or to the Rating in qujestion, in this example 1. Ah,
pointless, I would not allow a Physical Mage into my campaign, For that I do know my
players to well.;o)
--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:12:23 -0600
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 00:44:04 +0100 Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
writes:
<SNIP>
>Uh, now I remember. So it was pointless anyway. I do remeber that
>section, having
>both a full Mage and a Physad. Were is this old book, Awekenings
>(searches shelfs)?
>Uhm, not here atm. Annyway...
>Under SR3rd. Rules this would be quite interesting. Starting
>Characters would take
>just one point as Physad, and the other as Magician. Than during
>Gameplay they spend
>those 20 Karma and get another Point for the Physad in them.
>But does the restriction on 'ratings don't higher than Magicattribute'
>contribute to
>the complete Magicrating or to the Rating in qujestion, in this
>example 1. Ah,
>pointless, I would not allow a Physical Mage into my campaign, For
>that I do know my
>players to well.;o)

Physical Mages have 6 points of Magical Attribute. They can divide this
up anyway they want. If the Magician Magical Attribute falls to zero,
the char becomes an "ordinary" Physical Adept.

For example, a character who divides the points 3/3 would be the
equivelent of a mage with a Magic Attribute of 3 AND a Physical Adept
with a Magic Attribute of 3. It makes sense that the character's PhysAd
powers would be restricted by the portion of the Magical Attribute
allocated to being a Physical Adept and not by the combined ratings.

>From what I gather from Awakenings, a Physical Magician who allocates 6
points to being a Magician still has the potential to become a physical
adept (through initiation) BUT a Physical Magician who allocates 6 points
towards being a Physical Adept can never become a magician ...

To answer the original question, a Physical Mage can use Enchanting in
any capacity. (certain uses require true names of spirits but you don't
need to project in order to aquire the true name of a spirit ...)

I hope Physical Mages are included in Magic in the Shadows. :)

You know, Physical Mages are relatively more powerful in SR3. The
ability to summon whilst projecting should not be underestimated. The
loss of that and grounding don't really impact a Physical Mage (Any
target a Physical Mage can target astrally to ground a spell through,
could also be targeted physically and thus grounding would be
unnecissary). I wonder how/if this will be accounted for in Magic in the
Shadows ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 7
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 02:51:54 EST
In a message dated 10/25/1998 1:23:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
ladyreika@*********.COM writes:

> I have a question about the enchanting skill for phys mages, my
> char has astral perception so she can cast spells and do other
> mage-type stuff. Can she use the full enchanting skill, or can
> she just use the talismongering concentration to make fetishes?
> And yes we're still using the SRII rules in my group.
>
The sad thing is, in SR2, this isn't explained very well with regards to
Enchanting...

(HI Steve, if you are reading this, then you can be reminded of my thoughts on
this matter ;)

...but, IMO, Enchanting should be performable by anyone that has some degree
of active magical ability. Physical Mages and/or Physical Adepts, in our
original Home Rules could at the very least enchant Weapon Foci, as long as
they possessed the appropriate skills. Whatever active magical ability a
particular individual has, then with the correct preparation, they can enchant
an item to perform similarly.

But again, this is IMO of course.

-K

PS: I did post those alternative enchanting rules last week btw on HHH, just
as a reminder.

http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm

Magic Link - Enchanting Link - Rules Link......
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:38:32 +0100
According to Reika, at 13:25 on 25 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> I have a question about the enchanting skill for phys mages, my
> char has astral perception so she can cast spells and do other
> mage-type stuff. Can she use the full enchanting skill, or can
> she just use the talismongering concentration to make fetishes?

I don't see why a physical magician could not use enchanting skill to the
full. In the Grimoire, I can't find any references to astral perception or
projection being needed to enchant an item (except for analyzing magical
items, where it makes the test easier).

> And yes we're still using the SRII rules in my group.

No need to get defensive ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:51:17 -0500
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, K in the Shadows wrote:

->In a message dated 10/25/1998 1:23:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
->ladyreika@*********.COM writes:
->
->> I have a question about the enchanting skill for phys mages, my
->> char has astral perception so she can cast spells and do other
->> mage-type stuff. Can she use the full enchanting skill, or can
->> she just use the talismongering concentration to make fetishes?
->> And yes we're still using the SRII rules in my group.
->>
->The sad thing is, in SR2, this isn't explained very well with regards to
->Enchanting...
->
->(HI Steve, if you are reading this, then you can be reminded of my thoughts on
->this matter ;)
->
->...but, IMO, Enchanting should be performable by anyone that has some degree
->of active magical ability. Physical Mages and/or Physical Adepts, in our
->original Home Rules could at the very least enchant Weapon Foci, as long as
->they possessed the appropriate skills. Whatever active magical ability a
->particular individual has, then with the correct preparation, they can enchant
->an item to perform similarly.

Something that struck me as odd in Enchanting is that when making
Orichalcum, the TN is 10-Magic. So a mundane could do it with a TN of 10,
theoretically. Enchanting, IMO, almost doesn't have to be restricted to
the magically active, but it would be very much easier to the magically
active. Sort of like allowing mundanes to learn Conjuring to bind those
free spirits.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 10
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:26:47 EST
In a message dated 10/26/1998 7:42:04 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US writes:

>
> Something that struck me as odd in Enchanting is that when making
> Orichalcum, the TN is 10-Magic. So a mundane could do it with a TN of 10,
> theoretically. Enchanting, IMO, almost doesn't have to be restricted to
> the magically active, but it would be very much easier to the magically
> active. Sort of like allowing mundanes to learn Conjuring to bind those
> free spirits.

I had, in all honesty, never really looked at it in quite those terms. BUT, I
suppose you are right, if you go by the letter of the law vs. the spirit of
the law (hey, I'm a shaman, can I summon Legal Spirits to Guard against the
attacks of (Rules) Lawyers??? ;).

-K
Message no. 11
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:39:13 EST
In a message dated 98-10-26 14:28:06 EST, you write:

> I had, in all honesty, never really looked at it in quite those terms. BUT,
> I
> suppose you are right, if you go by the letter of the law vs. the spirit of
> the law (hey, I'm a shaman, can I summon Legal Spirits to Guard against the
> attacks of (Rules) Lawyers??? ;).
>
> -K
>

Only if you have an Urban totem, K... or a mage who was able to summon spirits
of man.
Message no. 12
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 01:30:18 +0100
And so it came to happen that Fixer wrote:
<snip>
> Something that struck me as odd in Enchanting is that when making
> Orichalcum, the TN is 10-Magic. So a mundane could do it with a TN of 10,
> theoretically. Enchanting, IMO, almost doesn't have to be restricted to
> the magically active, but it would be very much easier to the magically
> active. Sort of like allowing mundanes to learn Conjuring to bind those
> free spirits.

Hm, as you create a magicaly active object, don't you think that a
person have to be magicaly active in away to infuse the object with
the power to actually be magic? The Talaimongery Skill seems to be
something out of this, but I forbid it in my Campaign on the same
reasons. What would a mundane stop from building a Power Focus if he
can build a Fetish? Nothing, but I see it like this with enchanting
objects. It's just like building up a Television without electricity.
Sure you got a TV, but without electricity it's just a nice (more or
less ;o) piece of Junk that takes away space. For the binding spirits
for mundanes, it just don't sounds right IMO. Sorry, no explanation
here from my side, it just doesn't.

--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Message no. 13
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:50:10 -0600
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:35:53 EST K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 10/26/1998 8:46:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>starjammer@**********.COM writes:

>> What I'd really like to see in MitS is some Enchanting metamagic.
>> Transmutation, anyone? That, and something to make Alchemy actually
>> worth-while in its own right. I've been thinking about some new
magical
>> materials that could be produced by Alchemy, perhaps as metamagic.
Three
>> that spring to mind off the top of my head: Adamant (magically
>> strong/unbreakable metal), Lunargent ("True Silver" as orichalcum is
"True
>> Gold"), and "Mithril."

>(*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE SILENT*MUST BE
>SILENT*)
>
>ACCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>No offense here, but if you are going to steal stuff from other games,
at
>least come up with something original.

Isn't this a contradictory statement? How do you be original AND steal
something from someone else?

>Okay, I'm a game scenario thief too,
>but at least I'm in Rehab ;p
<SNIP>

Okay, Starjammer's Post made me think of something. In Rolemaster's
Alchemy Companion (1992), they had a butt load of special materials. CAn
anyone "in the know" about these things tell me which of the ICE made up,
which came from real mythology, and which came from other sources?

(Quoted/Paraphrased from ICE's Alchemy Companion, pages 15-16)
(These are listed in order [Highest to Lowest] of strength [Materials of
the same strength are listed alphabeticly.)

-Star Iron Forged using metal from certain meteorites, has a dull, dark
grey appearance. Is inherently anti-magical and is believed to possess
other properties.
-Galvorn Forged in part from meteoric iron to become malleable but
resistant to cuts and punctures.
-Eog Alloy of Mithril, durang, and other unknown substances. Requires
both hot and cold forging. Occurs in red, white, black, blue, or gray.
-Laen Volcanic glass. "Treated as magical".
-Black Alloy Not really enchanted, just an alloy. Included for
completeness. (could this be a titanium alloy?)
-Ithilnaur Made from mithril, titanium, and other metals. Superbly
strong, maintains a keen edge and is somewhat flexible.)
-Mithilgin Prized for its shining hue. made from mithril, platinum,
titanium, and other substances.
-Shaalk Extremely light and flexible with perfect resilience. Used to
make powerful bows.
-Enchanted Steel II Included for completeness.
-White Alloy Not really enchanted, just an alloy. Included for
completeness.
-Enchanted Steel I Included for completeness.
-Keron Appears wet or oiled when polished and maintains a keen edge.
Does not corrode.
-Enchanted Iron Included for completeness.
-Ulgond Elven liquid stone. Can harden in several days to have have the
strength of normal iron.
-Arinyark Acts as a Mana (Essence) capacitator.
-Kregora Alloy of mithril, gold, uranium, and other materials. Nullifies
magic. (This nullifing ability can in be insulated against with, IIRC<
Arinyark or some other material that starts with an 'A'.)
-Rularon A dull silver metal that protects against mental attacks.
-Ithildin developed from mithril to be used primarily as ornementation.
Glows under moonlight but appears dull otherwise.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Message no. 14
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: help with physical mages)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 02:48:48 EST
In a message dated 10/27/1998 12:01:18 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> -Star Iron Forged using metal from certain meteorites, has a dull, dark
> grey appearance. Is inherently anti-magical and is believed to possess
> other properties.

This would be an interesting twist in SR, given that there is no known magical
field in space. But, to answer your question of "made up" or "myth",
I
believe this one is modified from a previously existing myth.

> -Galvorn Forged in part from meteoric iron to become malleable but
> resistant to cuts and punctures.

Made up as far as I can find in the Alchemist's Handbook and from recall.

> -Eog Alloy of Mithril, durang, and other unknown substances. Requires
> both hot and cold forging. Occurs in red, white, black, blue, or gray.

???? I don't believe I have ever heard of this one. My vote is made up.

> -Laen Volcanic glass. "Treated as magical".

A neat name. Question, what is the color description. There is a collection
of descriptions for Volcanic Glass that exist, ranging from Apache's Tears to
"Blood Glass" and a few more.

> -Black Alloy Not really enchanted, just an alloy. Included for
> completeness. (could this be a titanium alloy?)

Possibly, but without knowing anything more, I couldn't say more.

> -Ithilnaur Made from mithril, titanium, and other metals. Superbly
> strong, maintains a keen edge and is somewhat flexible.)

Interesting thought. BUT, due to the inclusion of Titanium/Wolfram, I would
want to say this one is made up. Mankind's ability to use Titanium I thought
was a relatively recent development (yes/no?).

> -Mithilgin Prized for its shining hue. made from mithril, platinum,
> titanium, and other substances.

Again, made up.

> -Shaalk Extremely light and flexible with perfect resilience. Used to
> make powerful bows.

As this one is a "Phonetic Synonym" (say it drawn out and slow, you'll notice
it sounds like a raquet swing), I'm going to go with the "made up" category
again.

> -Enchanted Steel II Included for completeness.

Chuckle...

> -White Alloy Not really enchanted, just an alloy. Included for
> completeness.
> -Enchanted Steel I Included for completeness.

And these do what? If these are the names, let's guess they are made up.

> -Keron Appears wet or oiled when polished and maintains a keen edge.
> Does not corrode.

Okay, this one is interesting to me. Sounds made up, but for some reason I
keep trying to remember another material I remember reading about that comes
from the older mediterranean myths (south side, Phoenician or Sumerian
(shrug)).

> -Enchanted Iron Included for completeness.

smirk

> -Ulgond Elven liquid stone. Can harden in several days to have have the
> strength of normal iron.

smirk

> -Arinyark Acts as a Mana (Essence) capacitator.

oooooOOOOOOOooooooAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! This could be fun to have around ... made
up.

> -Kregora Alloy of mithril, gold, uranium, and other materials. Nullifies
> magic. (This nullifing ability can in be insulated against with, IIRC<
> Arinyark or some other material that starts with an 'A'.)

Made up.

> -Rularon A dull silver metal that protects against mental attacks.

There is a mythological being known as a "Rewlaroh", and yes I think I skewed
the translated spelling on that one. Interesting considering it was a tempter
of beings. Again, I believe this one could be made up (shrug).

> -Ithildin developed from mithril to be used primarily as ornementation.
> Glows under moonlight but appears dull otherwise.

don't know.

Again, all of these are just my opinion or what I can recall.

-K

Further Reading

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